B.C. Wildlife Federation says hunters furious

I hate it when governments see the potential to make money..someone always gets screwed over :)

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The B.C. Wildlife Federation says its membership is rising every day with hunters angered by the government's decision to increase permits for guides and their out-of-province clients.

Earlier this month B.C.'s Ministry of Forest, Lands and Natural Resource Operations quietly announced it was changing the rules for the 2015 hunt, giving even more permits to guides and their clients.
The government claims it's trying to help the guiding industry that was hurt by the economic downturn and they'll be keeping a close eye on the new harvest allocation.
But federation president George Wilson says the increased permits for guides come at the expense of local hunters and Victoria can expect a battle.
"Our membership is growing like crazy over this issue. People want to get into this fight. They see the unfairness in it," said Wilson.
"The government has pushed a button here that has got resident hunters extremely upset."
The federation is holding meetings across the province and has started a petition to try and reverse the government position.
East Kootenay resident and hunter Carmen Purdy has thrown his name into the draw to get a moose permit for 30 years, but he's never once been drawn.
Meanwhile an American hunter has no problem bagging a B.C. moose, he says.
"He doesn't have equal status with us because as long as he's got the money he can hunt a moose every year," says Purdy.
Purdy says he's never seen local hunters so mad.

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https://ca.news.yahoo.com/b-c-wildli...155241500.html

Oh and it has gone on for years here too Mike .

TD

All they can do and us as well,is make certain each candidate or incumbent feels the wrath of the voters at election time. Take a pro-active approach with every candidate. Send a personal,tempered and well-crafted letter,not only to the candidate,but,to the riding association President stating,unequivocally,that not only will you not support them,but,that you will actively campaign against them if they continue or support adverse policies.

I have always said it is an all out war against Hunters and firearms owners.

The same will happan in the near future around Ottawa in Marlborough and Larrose Forests.

I'm not sure why a provincial government is allowed to deal away a resourse to help a private business.

If your outfitting business is suffering....so what, not my problem ?

Yeah agreed that's unfair. I havent yet come across areas like that, but I know others on here that have.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I'm not sure why a provincial government is allowed to deal away a resourse to help a private business.

If you outfitting business is suffering....so what, not my problem ?

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Not to worry, they are taking most of the moose tags from the Ontario outfitters away in 2015.

Also, most of the lakes in this part NW Ontario will be void of American Fishermen in 2016 too!!

Why come here when they can fish their own lakes in the states.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Not to worry, they are taking most of the moose tags from the Ontario outfitters away in 2015.

Also, most of the lakes in this part NW Ontario will be void of American Fishermen in 2016 too!!

Why come here when they can fish their own lakes in the states.

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what are you based go this on Chris? I see the opposite with the low Canadian Dollar. They will start to flock in again.

New regulations in 2016.

Even with the low dollar they will stay state side, for MANY good reasons!!

I have "mixed" feelings, having met many outfitters in my life. For illustration only because its not a subject I feel Ive "decided" on, nor even how much I lean one way or the other.

Look what happened in the north when they cancelled the spring bear hunt. Then to, I know a couple outfitters who have told me that the bulk to the vast majority of their clients are non residents. Another who while I don't know how much he relies on them, he gets a lot of Europeans every fall.

For myself, anytime Ive spent a week at a fishing resort, there are always non residents. Sometimes just one group, sometimes half the people in for the week.

I know one gem of a place I like to go to whenever I feel I need a little escape, its neither a fishing or hunting destination. Its just one heck of a place with amazing food, a "cabin in the woods", and is one of the very few places Ive returned to having spent my life always wanting to see a different lake, fish a different area. Its actually not all that far from APP and millions of potential clients who flock to the region.

90% of its business is non residents.
********

It's not as simple Mike as saying if your business is struggling. Mixed in with that is the fact residents, don't support their own. This has been discussed in a thread unrelated to hunting/fishing….So many Ontarians don't know whats out there, haven't discovered much of the province. Wont pay to stay at some fantastic resorts/lodges/outfitters.

And for those that do, explore the province DIY.
How many resident hunters jumped all over the spring bear hunt this year?
How many resident hunters pay $1,000 to say $1,500 for a fall bear hunt?

While I can most certainly see the "our resources, why do they get preferential treatment" side of things.

The economics are big. Not only for the outfitters. Theres all kinds of spin off benefits and more.
And at the end of the day we all know how much the MNR is hurting for $$. Non residents pay a fair bit for tags/liscences.

be careful what you wish for I "think"….One only need look at what canceling the spring bear hunt did to the North. It wiped out a lot of outfitters, and wiped out a big chunk of the Norths economy (spin off benefits). What percentage of their clients back in the day were non residents? I bet a big percentage.

Maybe if we residents used them more……..

You bring up a good narrative JBen..but in the end, guys who become outfitters do it primarily because the good money that flows in from having US clients. The business model is about making big dollars over providing a service for the local residents, because we (for the most part) won't pay what they are asking for a guided week.

A fella in MB has camp that he opens up for one week camp, for 7 guys from the US, and makes $10K profit + tips. Worth his while.

So if their business model is relying on government allotment of tags to sell to their clients, and that dries up, it's not in the interest of the Ont hunters to give up their tags to support them.

I'm also sure a better rate scale for residents at some of these places would bring in more clients.

I also don't buy that there is substantial 'spin off' from this type of tourism....the money stays primarily with the outfitter...allot pick them up at the aiport and drop them off after.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Not to worry, they are taking most of the moose tags from the Ontario outfitters away in 2015.

Also, most of the lakes in this part NW Ontario will be void of American Fishermen in 2016 too!!

Why come here when they can fish their own lakes in the states.

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I find your view of American sportsmen interesting Chris - and pretty shallow and self centred. You don't seem to want Americans up here at all unless an outfitter can make a buck off them - and in that case, then more is better...and you don't seem to like Ontarians hunting and fishing either if it has a negative impact on your outfitting. Just a little reminder that that the fish and game in Ontario do not exist soley for the benefit of outfitters.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

You bring up a good narrative JBen..but in the end, guys who become outfitters do it primarily because the good money that flows in from having US clients. The business model is about making big dollars over providing a service for the local residents, because we (for the most part) won't pay what they are asking for a guided week.

A fella in MB has camp that he opens up for one week camp, for 7 guys from the US, and makes $10K profit + tips. Worth his while.

So if their business model is relying on government allotment of tags to sell to their clients, and that dries up, it's not in the interest of the Ont hunters to give up their tags to support them.

I'm also sure a better rate scale for residents at some of these places would bring in more clients.

I also don't buy that there is substantial 'spin off' from this type of tourism....the money stays primarily with the outfitter...allot pick them up at the aiport and drop them off after.

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Agree with you MP - if an outfitter is able to sell hunts only because he has access to tags (which happens a lot with moose hunts) or he has access to lakes that others are prohibited from using, the system is being abused. You can expect outfitters to be against the correction of these abuses. I've always wondered why the government cant see the abuse - why does a camp that could accommodate me for a week of walleye fishing for $500 need $5000 to accommodate me for a week of moose hunting when the only real difference in the two packages is a bull moose tag?

Re spinoff or trickle down spending. There are some lodge expenses - housekeeping staff, cooks, guides, maintenance - but as a total of the entire fee - pretty small. Very little "off-lodge" spending.

Mike as I said…"not a simple topic".
Take "bear hunting" as I know a handful of people with BMAs. Typically a week might cost $1200-$1400 depending on devil details.

The sounds really steep, until you factor in all the hours, sweat and work they do baiting stations, checking Game Cams at night, staying on top of the stations that are getting hit, etc, etc. Actual hard cost is probably fairly small ( A station, A stand, A game cam) so profit is "high", but then you have tracking, field dressing, skinning the animals...but work? And when you run these kinds of places, there is always something breaking down from boat motors, to cabin things, to water pipes/pumps, to insurance and more.

Me?
I doubt Id be willing to book a trip hunting say to Alberta in the spring, let alone a foreign country for $1,000-$2,000 if I didn't know Id at least have a tag come the fall.

/edit add
Just for clarification, not saying there aren't problems, or even some "abuses".
Not a simple topic with easy straightforward answers.

Werner anytime I go a lodge/outfitters I spend a fair bit outside. On gas for my vehicle, on food/booze, sometimes motels, restaurants, tackle, Tims and Mickey Ds, etc, etc.

The place I just returned from hunting deer for the last week.
Has had guys drive all the way from Maine for the same week. Always gets a good group of return NY hunters the first week of Rifle (for 40 years) and they drive to.

JBen, you took the words right out of my mouth. BE CAREFULL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!!

In 2016 residents, in the NW, will have all the lakes for themselves. They currently have all the spring bear hunt to themselves. Non residents allowed me to lower the rates for residents when they came to our camp for deer. Residents were half price here for deer hunting.

But I am more than happy with a fall bear hunt!!!

Because of no spring hunt here our local lumber yard shut its doors because Outfitters were not spending in the spring like before. Now locals have to travel 40 km's to get a 2x4. To get breakfast, again 40 km drive.

Because of no restaurant here, motels are empty because travelers want to stay where they can wake up and have a restaurant to eat at. It's a snowball effect.

WR, I was being sarcastic!!

When a self employed business owner (lumber yard owner) lost his business, he had to go and take a job from another local. Again snowball effect.

When the resturants closed, cooks etc ended up going to the next town and took jobs from locals there. Werner, you need to start thinking of your fellow resident, even though they are in the next province over in NW ONTARIO!!!

Not familiar with the 2016 regs changes. Is there something in the regs/2016 that keeps American fishermen out of NW Ontario? Or are you referring to the 2 walleye limit for non-residents?

That is what I was referring to.

MN. fisher persons can keep 6 walleyes and in some lakes 8. Even when there was a high American dollar no buisiness gave the proper exchange. So high dollar will not have an impact.

When they come to Canada they have a hassle at the border, why put themselves through that.

Outfitters were on those remote lakes decades before access was ever brought in. They deserve the adult tags given to them. After all moose hunting in those remote areas have always been great, still are. Those outfits are worth millions of dollars!! They deserve a voice.

Also the locals in NW get first crack at the tags, the way it should be.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Outfitters were on those remote lakes decades before access was ever brought in. They deserve the adult tags given to them. After all moose hunting in those remote areas have always been great, still are. Those outfits are worth millions of dollars!! They deserve a voice.

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Hard to believe you wrote that. That attitude is, in a nutshell, the cause of conflict between outfitters and resident hunters. Outfits worth millions "deserving" adult moose tags.

W.R, the locals here rely a lot on remote outpost moose hunts, through spin off jobs, etc. Locals of this area would prefer the outfitter over the easterner!! The moose population in these remote areas is intact but could be unstabalized by the many 1000's of easterners that flock here each fall, tripping all over each other and in the end getting nothing.

Easy to blame the outfitter when......

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

The moose population in these remote areas is intact but could be unstabalized by the many easterners that flock here each fall, tripping all over each other and in the end getting nothing.

Easy to blame the outfitter when......

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It's a bit humorous to see in your posts how incompetent hunters are when they are not blessed by the presence of a guide. It's a wonder that Canada isn't been overrun by a plague of moose given how few hunters use guides.

The only places that have a population problem is where access is everywhere. These remote areas that an outfitter has been for decades are doing fine for moose. Why, because of limited access.

Outfitters have been in business for decades for a reason, they know how to manage a population.

Stop blaming the outfitter and look at yourself and your very POOR attitude!!!!

Chris,look at the up-side.
You will have less to rant about at the pumps at Bobby's:angry:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

The moose population in these remote areas is intact but could be unstabalized by the many 1000's of easterners that flock here each fall, tripping all over each other and in the end getting nothing.

Easy to blame the outfitter when......

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BTW - if this is about BC, BC requires guides or a resident with the "permit to accompany" for all non-resident hunters....so if there is a problem, it's BC hunters or guides causing it, not non-resident easterners.

Werner.reiche, your ignorance of the facts is apparent in your posts. Outfitters will ALWAYS be here!!

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Werner.reiche, your ignorance of the facts is apparent in your posts.

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Just which facts have I got wrong? I would think you might want to go back over your posts before we get into talking about ignorance on the issue. You seem to like to throw things out there and don't like it when the truth gets in the way of one of your rants.

The following paragraph is right from BC's Fish and Wildlife branch.

"All non-resident hunters wishing to hunt big game in the province of British Columbia must be accompanied by a registered guide outfitter or accompanied by a resident who holds a Permit to Accompany."


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...esident/#Intro

Werner.reiche, you haven't thrown any truth out there yet!!

All you do is RANT about outfitters. It's apparent you have a problem with outfitters making a living, it shows!!

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Werner.reiche, you haven't thrown any truth out there yet!!

All you do is RANT about outfitters. It's apparent you have a problem with outfitters making a living, it shows!!

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Didn't get an answer for my previous question. Where am I wrong on this? From your above response it would appear you can't find anything wrong and are just off on another rant.

"Just which facts have I got wrong? I would think you might want to go back over your posts before we get into talking about ignorance on the issue. You seem to like to throw things out there and don't like it when the truth gets in the way of one of your rants.

The following paragraph is right from BC's Fish and Wildlife branch.

"All non-resident hunters wishing to hunt big game in the province of British Columbia must be accompanied by a registered guide outfitter or accompanied by a resident who holds a Permit to Accompany."


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...esident/#Intro

"

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Werner.reiche, you haven't thrown any truth out there yet!!

All you do is RANT about outfitters. It's apparent you have a problem with outfitters making a living, it shows!!

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And no, I don't have a problem with outfitters - I do have a problem with anyone who thinks they have more of a right to fish and game than others - and that includes a lot of individuals other than outfitters - and there are also many lodges and outfitters who can run a business without special perks from the province. I actually have been spending one week a year at a fishing lodge for the past 15 years or so and the guy that runs that does it without help from the province.

Other than posts in your threads where you think outfitters deserve special privileges (access, tags, etc), can you find any post of mine that is against outfitters?

I feel that our entire moose tag system needs to be revamped. A system where we accumulate preference points would be the fairest of all. That way you could charge non residents more for the points but they don't attain the needed quota any quicker than the resident. Some zones would obviously need more points due to desirability and those with most points would get first crack at the tags. Many US states use this system. I also feel that outfitters should not get preference over residents. In doing that you are saying one resident is entitled to more access to a crown resource. Also quite a few outfitters are Americans anyway. Should they be granted automatically the same rights as a resident because they have the money? A point system would slso accomodate the likely few Americans who own camps here and don't use outfitters.

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Originally Posted by terrym

I feel that our entire moose tag system needs to be revamped. A system where we accumulate preference points would be the fairest of all. That way you could charge non residents more for the points but they don't attain the needed quota any quicker than the resident. Some zones would obviously need more points due to desirability and those with most points would get first crack at the tags. Many US states use this system. I also feel that outfitters should not get preference over residents. In doing that you are saying one resident is entitled to more access to a crown resource. Also quite a few outfitters are Americans anyway. Should they be granted automatically the same rights as a resident because they have the money? A point system would slso accomodate the likely few Americans who own camps here and don't use outfitters.

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This system is the norm in the western US where demand for tags far outpaces the numbers available...and it would be a big improvement over what we have now. The one caveat with adopting it is that the states always do it on an individual basis and Ontario loves its party moose hunting. Party hunting greatly reduces the number of tags available as the likelihood of any tag being filled increased with the number of hunters trying to fill that tag.

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Originally Posted by Blue Lk

Chris,look at the up-side.
You will have less to rant about at the pumps at Bobby's:angry:

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Yah, since they got rid of you gas jockeys, service has been quite a lot faster!! Thinking of being a greeter at Walmart are you, runs in your family doesn't it???

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

And no, I don't have a problem with outfitters - I do have a problem with anyone who thinks they have more of a right to fish and game than others - and that includes a lot of individuals other than outfitters - and there are also many lodges and outfitters who can run a business without special perks from the province. I actually have been spending one week a year at a fishing lodge for the past 15 years or so and the guy that runs that does it without help from the province.

Other than posts in your threads where you think outfitters deserve special privileges (access, tags, etc), can you find any post of mine that is against outfitters?

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I also go to 2 different northern Ontario outfitters for fishing trips each . The one I went to last June had 31 Americans and 4 Canadians, and the owner was also American. Most of these lodges are American owned. The MNR supplies them with lots of moose tags as well as close off access roads that are miles from their camps just to help them out. After the season is over these American owners pack their belongings and go back home to the states. It is time hunters in Ontario get a better break than the American outfitter. Chris, you might be a Canadian outfitter but you are in a minority . As far as Werner. Reiche is concerned, I feel his opinions on this forum are always well spoken

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Originally Posted by Foxx

I also go to 2 different northern Ontario outfitters for fishing trips each . The one I went to last June had 31 Americans and 4 Canadians, and the owner was also American. Most of these lodges are American owned. The MNR supplies them with lots of moose tags as well as close off access roads that are miles from their camps just to help them out. After the season is over these American owners pack their belongings and go back home to the states. It is time hunters in Ontario get a better break than the American outfitter. Chris, you might be a Canadian outfitter but you are in a minority . As far as Werner. Reiche is concerned, I feel his opinions on this forum are always well spoken

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I'm kind of wondering how Americans are even getting work permits from the Federal government. Wouldn't that be like taking jobs away from Canadians? Isn't the raison d'etre of CBSA and Immigration Canada to prevent that from happening? Maybe,it's time to start kicking over some garbage pails. Enquiring minds would like to know. Just sayin'......

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I'm kind of wondering how Americans are even getting work permits from the Federal government. Wouldn't that be like taking jobs away from Canadians? Isn't the raison d'etre of CBSA and Immigration Canada to prevent that from happening? Maybe,it's time to start kicking over some garbage pails. Enquiring minds would like to know. Just sayin'......

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There's a difference between getting an employment visa and running a business in Canada. If the individual is an American running a guiding business up here, the feds and prov government view that as a good thing and help it happen (think of an American wanting to open a factory in southern Ontario - they are viewed similarly). However, if an American wants to come up here and get a job (i.e. employment) there is a whole different set of rules.

An American who owns an Outfitter business (permit holder) is the only one able to work in Canada. His children are not allowed to help around the camp at all.

I actually agree with some of your points FOX. It's not right that they come here and reap the benefits of our resources to just go back state side and spend it.

But, now the American camp owners are starting to sell out to Canadian residents. Many previously american owned camps, are selling out at their first opportunity. They now find it hard to pay for 2 residences with the low dollar.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

An American who owns an Outfitter business (permit holder) is the only one able to work in Canada. His children are not allowed to help around the camp at all.

I actually agree with some of your points FOX. It's not right that they come here and reap the benefits of our resources to just go back state side and spend it.

But, now the American camp owners are starting to sell out to Canadian residents. Many previously american owned camps, are selling out at their first opportunity. They now find it hard to pay for 2 residences with the low dollar.

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean,Chris. American owners charge fees in US currency and pay staff and license fees in CAN bucks. With the Canadian dollar worth .85 US,how can they not make money? I would think that the US economy isn't all sweetness and light and most US hunters have trouble paying the grossly inflated fees the American AND Canadian outfitters are charging. Honestly,there aren't many people left on either side of the border that can cough up $4-6K to hunt up here for a week. Those charges are unjustifiably brutal and it appears to me that outfitters are simply pricing themselves completely out of the market. Werner may be right. They have no one to blame except themselves.

Some destinations are out pricing themselves. That's why Ontario is so attractive to the hunters and fisher persons south of the border.

On other forums there is exactly the same debate going on.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

The only places that have a population problem is where access is everywhere. These remote areas that an outfitter has been for decades are doing fine for moose. Why, because of limited access.

Outfitters have been in business for decades for a reason, they know how to manage a population.

Stop blaming the outfitter and look at yourself and your very POOR attitude!!

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So which is it? In one statement you claim the outfitter is doing well due to limited access? In the next, you say that it is because the outfitter knows how to manage a population? So? Limited access for hunters? Or outfitter management techniques? (Which is a complete crock of shyte!)


I think the one with the "POOR" attitude is you. From reading your posts, it seems obvious you have a great disdain toward the Ontario resident hunter that dares to travel to your region to hunt moose/deer? This forum is made up of hunters and fishers who don't own lodges and resorts. It's mostly people who allow you to be in business and have the privilege of earning a living using the resources that belong to everyone in Ontario. Perhaps you're on the wrong forum?

coporate welfare now small bussiness welfare. if you bussiness cant survive the evolution of the animals and new hunting tecniques then its time to close and try something new . We have become a nanny state and i will not suport a bussiness plan that is doomed to fail. Its becoming to expensive to hunt in ontario as a resident and has become unreachable to hunt here as a non resident

Bush moose, The remote outfitter has had the same amount of moose tags for years. Hasn't had any increase in tags. I don't hear them asking for anymore either. The access into the remote territory he outfits out of has been built recently, areas such as this will be over hunted and needs to be protected.

Most roads North of here looks like HAITI for all the moose shanty's every 1/2 mile. It's ridiculous. The logging roads look like your HWY 401!!

Those "shantys" are a big part of the moose hunting tradition. It serves its purpose of temporary and comfortable shelter for moose hunters. Your comment smacks of self entitlement so dont be surprised why people get offended.
I actually get a kick at how elaborate some of these "Shantys" are. If you don't like how they look you could move down South and vacation in a trailer park. Your self serving attitude will eventually cost you your business.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Bush moose, The remote outfitter has had the same amount of moose tags for years. Hasn't had any increase in tags. I don't hear them asking for anymore either. The access into the remote territory he outfits out of has been built recently, areas such as this will be over hunted and needs to be protected.

Most roads North of here looks like HAITI for all the moose shanty's every 1/2 mile. It's ridiculous. The logging roads look like your HWY 401!!

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It seems that your beating around the bush with the tag allocation issue,Chris. On one hand,you're complaining about not having enough tags. Then,you complain about "southern" hunters infringing on "your" hunting areas. What,specifically,would you like to see happen?

I have never done a moose hunt at my place. Never will, don't want to.

The outfitter has LITTLE impact on the moose population. He is happy with the FEW tags he has. None are asking for more.

These shanty's packed full with hunters every half mile will be the demise of the moose hunting here!! Not the outfitter.

Bet there will be big changes in 2015 moose hunt, unfortunately for everyone!!!

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

These shanty's packed full with hunters every half mile will be the demise of the moose hunting here!! Not the outfitter.

Bet there will be big changes in 2015 moose hunt.

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Those "shantys" as you put it have very little impact judging by the dismal success rates which is quite typical for an area that has heavy hunting pressure for one or two weeks. The Moose simply move further back into the bush where 95% of those hunters can't or won't go. Usually,they won't hunt farther than two miles from the camp on the road.

Chris your statement is outfitters have little impact on the moose population is a joke right? i have known guys that have hunted for years with no moose to claim .. they spent money on a outfitter and after 4 days of not seeing any moose the the outfitter led them by the hand to a moose .. i think your statement needs more clarification ..

The outfitters are only " potentially" harvesting the moose they are allocated, no more. The remote outfitters are scrutinized each year by the OMNR, making sure of not overharvesting.

Again, these remote areas have to be protected from access as they will be easily over harvested.

I am in the industry and believe RESIDENTS SHOULD have priority with adult tags. Locals of the area being first, like it is now!!

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

The outfitters are only " potentially" harvesting the moose they are allocated, no more. The remote outfitters are scrutinized each year by the OMNR, making sure of not overharvesting.

Again, these remote areas have to be protected from access as they will be easily over harvested.

I am in the industry and believe RESIDENTS SHOULD have priority with adult tags. Locals of the area being first, like it is now!!

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Please define "protected from access."

Logging roads torn out after the loggers are done. In some cases not allowing any motorized vehicles only walking or biking. Being that access was never there to begin with!!!

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Logging roads torn out after the loggers are done. In some cases not allowing any motorized vehicles only walking or biking. Being that access was never there to begin with!!!

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Taxpayers have already paid for those roads through grants to the logging industry from OMNR,therefore,taxpayers should have unrestricted use which OntOra and the OFAH are screaming about. For a minute,there,I was wondering if you meant that all outfitters had their own "exclusive" hunting areas. By "exclusive",I mean vast sections of Crown land reserved specifically for outfitters. Don't EVER hold your breathe waiting for that to happen. LOL

Again, those outfitters were there before the roads. They just happen to be within that restricted area. They are already catch and release. Can only have a certain number of beds in a remote camp. Rules they have to follow to enjoy the resources they have for decades.

What rules do you give your personal hunting camp and fellow shanty users??? NONE I bet.

I think the ofah is agreeing to the 1 km or 2km buffer around these lakes for sole use of the outfitters??? we have to adbide by the rules set out by the mnr... if the outfitters dont want to play in the same sandbox with the rest of them they take your pail and go home

Your saying protected?? So someone who has money to spend on a Outfitter should have dibs on these areas? So what you are actually saying is unless you are wealthy you should not be able to hunt in these areas. I have been reading your dribble for several pages now. I think Werner and Sawbill and the others are correct.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

The outfitters are only " potentially" harvesting the moose they are allocated, no more. The remote outfitters are scrutinized each year by the OMNR, making sure of not overharvesting.

Again, these remote areas have to be protected from access as they will be easily over harvested.

I am in the industry and believe RESIDENTS SHOULD have priority with adult tags. Locals of the area being first, like it is now!!

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Greatwhite,of course you would agree with them, as you, just like them, are ignorant of the facts!!!

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

I think the ofah is agreeing to the 1 km or 2km buffer around these lakes for sole use of the outfitters??? we have to adbide by the rules set out by the mnr... if the outfitters dont want to play in the same sandbox with the rest of them they take your pail and go home

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Who elected the OFAH to be the voice and policy maker for Ontario hunters? A 2km buffer is enormous. The only buffer I would give outfitters is 100yds around buildings they own. The land belongs to Ontario's residents.....full stop. If the outfitter actually has deeded ownership then thats different. Crow land is for everybody to use, with equal rights and regulations.

Not at all. I think you are.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

I have never done a moose hunt at my place. Never will, don't want to.

The outfitter has LITTLE impact on the moose population. He is happy with the FEW tags he has. None are asking for more.

These shanty's packed full with hunters every half mile will be the demise of the moose hunting here!! Not the outfitter.

Bet there will be big changes in 2015 moose hunt, unfortunately for everyone!!!

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Seems to me even some outfitters disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Greatwhite,of course you would agree with them, as you, just like them, are ignorant of the facts!!!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

Who elected the OFAH to be the voice and policy maker for Ontario hunters? A 2km buffer is enormous. The only buffer I would give outfitters is 100yds around buildings they own. The land belongs to Ontario's residents.....full stop. If the outfitter actually has deeded ownership then thats different. Crow land is for everybody to use, with equal rights and regulations.

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As I have said before, I believe the MNR and the outfitters work together to control access to crown land that should be available to all hunters in Ontario. These outfitters --- most who are American --- go to with their hand out each spring to the MNR and come away with tags that they turn around and sell to their customers for outrageous prices and then head back to the states each fall. We, the Ontario hunter have to go in a draw each year for a tag that your odds are very low . I think anyone over 40 who draws a tag now will probably never get another in their life time. If we ever got caught selling a tag or even the meat, the MNR would charge us for this.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Again, those outfitters were there before the roads. They just happen to be within that restricted area. They are already catch and release. Can only have a certain number of beds in a remote camp. Rules they have to follow to enjoy the resources they have for decades.

What rules do you give your personal hunting camp and fellow shanty users??? NONE I bet.

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Considering that most are only there for a week,your whining is falling on deaf ears. Ontario belongs to everyone,not just a few outfitters. Any "restrictions" you THINK you have apply only to clients of other outfitters. Resident hunters may access those areas by foot,water or private aircraft.....as it should be. Sorry if that doesn't meet with your approval. Any "competition" from these people are negligible,at best. If you can't handle it,maybe,you should look for other lines of work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

The moose population in these remote areas is intact but could be unstabalized by the many 1000's of easterners that flock here each fall, tripping all over each other and in the end getting nothing.

Easy to blame the outfitter when......

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

The only places that have a population problem is where access is everywhere. These remote areas that an outfitter has been for decades are doing fine for moose. Why, because of limited access.

Outfitters have been in business for decades for a reason, they know how to manage a population.

Stop blaming the outfitter and look at yourself and your very POOR attitude!!

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Werner.reiche, your ignorance of the facts is apparent in your posts.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Werner.reiche, you haven't thrown any truth out there yet!!

All you do is RANT about outfitters. It's apparent you have a problem with outfitters making a living, it shows!!

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Chris, as I said before, perhaps you are on the wrong forum. Your attempt at credibility is gone. You swooped in as the know it all about the bear hunting issue and now you try to impress the mass's with your ridiculous and ignorant comments towards anyone who challenges you on your stance about outfitters. . Give it up and go away please? You'll feel better, we'll feel better! Oh, and don't worry, we'll refund your initiation fee.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Taxpayers have already paid for those roads through grants to the logging industry from OMNR,therefore,taxpayers should have unrestricted use which OntOra and the OFAH are screaming about. For a minute,there,I was wondering if you meant that all outfitters had their own "exclusive" hunting areas. By "exclusive",I mean vast sections of Crown land reserved specifically for outfitters. Don't EVER hold your breathe waiting for that to happen. LOL

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Non-resident hunters who stay at my place pay at least $300.00 in HST each. This helps pay for your HWY infrastructure and our health care. I will not go away!!!

Bushmoose , the problem will not go away by me leaving. Maybe an attitude change by you might help though!!

Pine Acres Hunting Camp
Bear Hunting

PLAN #1 - American Plan (Boat & Motor)
Price: $1525.00 (taxes & licenses extra)
PLAN #2
Price: $1195.00 (taxes & licenses extra)

Wolf Hunting
Price: $850.00 (taxes & licenses extra)

That doesn't work out to $300 for HST.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Pine Acres Hunting Camp
Bear Hunting

PLAN #1 - American Plan (Boat & Motor)
Price: $1525.00 (taxes & licenses extra)
PLAN #2
Price: $1195.00 (taxes & licenses extra)

Wolf Hunting
Price: $850.00 (taxes & licenses extra)

That doesn't work out to $300 for HST.

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...and even if it were $300 - that's less than 1/10th what I pay for property taxes on a small bungalow, never mind federal and provincial income taxes, and HST on everything I buy all year...it's what most people would call "insignificant". Not sure why you'd point it out other than to PO everyone who gets hit 365 days/year with income, property and HST taxes.

$14.00 on tank of gas each time they fill up, they usually fill up 2 times, 4 fill ups if they drive a DODGE.

$198.00 for HST on $1525.00. $37.50 HST on Bear license & fishing license. Night at motel before arrival, restaurant tabs, souvenirs, repair on vehicles etc. This is for 6 days of visiting Ontario.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

$14.00 on tank of gas each time they fill up, they usually fill up 2 times, 4 fill ups if they drive a DODGE. $198.00 for HST on $1525.00. $37.50 HST on Bear license & fishing license. Night at motel before arrival, restaurant tabs, souvenirs, repair on vehicles etc. This is for 6 days of visiting Ontario.

They don't mind paying either!!

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And well they should. With charges like what you charge,so should you. One cabin with 6 hunters @$1595/per,sure looks to me like $9000 per cabin per week. With six cabins PLUS a lodge,it adds up to a cool $54000 per week. Now,let me see,for a 10 week season,it looks like $540,000 assuming full booking capacity. Even at half booking,it's still 5X what the average Ontarian makes in an entire year. Boo-Hoo! You have the gall to whine about resident hunters? Cry me a river!

I don't begrudge an outfitter making as much money as they can. They charge what the market will bear. If that isn't within my mean's so be it. It will be within someone else's or the business will fold. What I don't think is acceptable is for outfitters to be allocated moose tags over and above the same lottery of Ontario residents. Of course we need to change our tag system to accommodate non residents but a point system would do that fairly. I am also opposed to giving exclusive hunting rights to Outfitters at the expense of residents. I think the BMU system for bear hunting is a good one. It protects outfitters from poaching each others bait sites but does not restrict residents from hunting crown land. As a resident I can in theory setup a bait 50ft from an outfitter legally. Of course that would be ignorant and unsportsmanlike but what we are talking about really is locking out residents from vast areas of productive land. The "buffer" zones quoted above could close off millions of acres to residents. The area I moose hunt is dotted with lakes. The overlap of these buffer zones would literally force us out of the area as you would be left with narrow strips at best and most time not have access to what is outside the buffer. On Crown land I say give an outfitter a 100ft buffer on the land his buildings sit on and then everybody plays by the same regulations.
We used to hunt moose out by Dryden and one year an outfitter showed up and literally planted a sign 100 ft from our camp one day claiming access rights. What the idiot didn't realize is one of the guys in camp was a CO and 2 others were OPP officers. we know our rights damned well trust me. When he returned the next day his sign was sitting on our firewood pile, he didn't come back after that.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

I don't begrudge an outfitter making as much money as they can. They charge what the market will bear. If that isn't within my mean's so be it. It will be within someone else's or the business will fold. What I don't think is acceptable is for outfitters to be allocated moose tags over and above the same lottery of Ontario residents. Of course we need to change our tag system to accommodate non residents but a point system would do that fairly. I am also opposed to giving exclusive hunting rights to Outfitters at the expense of residents. I think the BMU system for bear hunting is a good one. It protects outfitters from poaching each others bait sites but does not restrict residents from hunting crown land. As a resident I can in theory setup a bait 50ft from an outfitter legally. Of course that would be ignorant and unsportsmanlike but what we are talking about really is locking out residents from vast areas of productive land. The "buffer" zones quoted above could close off millions of acres to residents. The area I moose hunt is dotted with lakes. The overlap of these buffer zones would literally force us out of the area as you would be left with narrow strips at best and most time not have access to what is outside the buffer. On Crown land I say give an outfitter a 100ft buffer on the land his buildings sit on and then everybody plays by the same regulations.
We used to hunt moose out by Dryden and one year an outfitter showed up and literally planted a sign 100 ft from our camp one day claiming access rights. What the idiot didn't realize is one of the guys in camp was a CO and 2 others were OPP officers. we know our rights damned well trust me. When he returned the next day his sign was sitting on our firewood pile, he didn't come back after that.....

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Very good post Terry - my thoughts are the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

And well they should. With charges like what you charge,so should you. One cabin with 6 hunters @$1595/per,sure looks to me like $9000 per cabin per week. With six cabins PLUS a lodge,it adds up to a cool $54000 per week. Now,let me see,for a 10 week season,it looks like $540,000 assuming full booking capacity. Even at half booking,it's still 5X what the average Ontarian makes in an entire year. Boo-Hoo! You have the gall to whine about resident hunters? Cry me a river!

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Your post, again, shows your ignorance!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Your post, again, shows your ignorance!!!

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What's with all the accusations of other ignorance without every indicating what it is you think others are being ignorant about? You keep replying to others with accusations of ignorance but never a single word to back up your BS & bluster.

Re: trimmers post - sure you're not booked solid all the time - but even at half booked (270k/yr), that's almost 4 times the median Ontario family income (74k) - so his point is still valid even if he has pushed the numbers to the upper end.

That post indeed shows his lack of knowledge and apparently you too!!

Even the lower end is way off base!!!

So your saying your the most highly informed person on here? Somehow I doubt that.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

That post indeed shows his lack of knowledge and apparently you too!!

Even the lower end is way off base!!!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

So your saying your the most highly informed person on here? Somehow I doubt that.

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I'm no where near the most knowledgeable, but a few of you think you are!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

That post indeed shows his lack of knowledge and apparently you too!!

Even the lower end is way off base!!!

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And there we go again...so just what's wrong with the figures? You seem to be unable to counter with anything other then telling others they are wrong...so what's right? Do you run your outfit at less than 50% capacity? Do you sell you hunts for less than the advertised price? Do you have less accomodations available than your site advertises? Fill us in with where our calculations are wrong?

Telling others they are "wrong" without being able to tell them why a) doesn't shed a lot of light on the matter and b) casts a whole lot of doubt on your opinion.

At least in this post you didn't use the word ignorant, but "shows his lack of knowledge" isn't a big improvement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

I'm no where near the most knowledgeable, but a few of you think you are!!

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Forget it Chris, we win this debate, go on to a different topic !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

The area I moose hunt is dotted with lakes. The overlap of these buffer zones would literally force us out of the area as you would be left with narrow strips at best and most time not have access to what is outside the buffer.

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Not to mention the fact, that I hunt from the water a lot of the time. I am paddling/traveling from lake to lake through the interconnecting streams and portages. Put one lake that I can't cross or be near in a water/portage system that runs through hundreds of lakes and you have shut me out of thousands of square Miles of Crown land. That would also so stop any one using a road or an ATV trail to access crown beyond the outfitter's buffer if the road or trail so much as passed through one square inch of the buffer zone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

That post indeed shows his lack of knowledge and apparently you too!!

Even the lower end is way off base!!!

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I'm calling bullshyte on your statements. If you can't make at least that amount in one Bear hunt season,it only serves to prove that you're a piss poor businessman. Time to shut 'er down.

Those figures shows you are indeed way off base.

We have 6 cabins. We never fill to capacity, too much work!!!

Regarding the HST that non-res pay, not long ago they could apply to have that money returned, in other words, not have to pay it at all.
To my knowledge, this hasn't changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sawbill

Regarding the HST that non-res pay, not long ago they could apply to have that money returned, in other words, not have to pay it at all.
To my knowledge, this hasn't changed.

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It has not....There are scores of them lined up to get the TAXES refunded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

I'm no where near the most knowledgeable, but a few of you think you are!!

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Are you still here? I told you that you would get a refund, so take it and run. 400Bigbear has the money and will gladly return it to you. Move on please. You really have no idea who you are dealing with do you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Those figures shows you are indeed way off base.

We have 6 cabins. We never fill to capacity, too much work!!!

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Like I said,even at half capacity,it's still at least,$250,000 which ain't bad for 10 weeks work. Adding in the rest of the year,there's just NO justification to complain about resident hunters cramping your business. It' simply isn't true nor does it even make sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Are you still here? I told you that you would get a refund, so take it and run. 400Bigbear has the money and will gladly return it to you. Move on please. You really have no idea who you are dealing with do you?

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LMAO Bushmoose . He can get his refund but will have to get off the couch and get it from me because I'm out on a cold frozen lake and staying for a bit . She sure is making ice and not snowing .

TD

Reviewing all of his Posts. I have but one word TROLL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 400bigbear

LMAO Bushmoose . He can get his refund but will have to get off the couch and get it from me because I'm out on a cold frozen lake . She sure making ice and not snowing .

TD

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Are you still here? I told you that you would get a refund, so take it and run. 400Bigbear has the money and will gladly return it to you. Move on please. You really have no idea who you are dealing with do you?

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Water isn't frozen here yet, but I will be taking the kid's out ice fishing once it does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 400bigbear

LMAO Bushmoose . He can get his refund but will have to get off the couch and get it from me because I'm out on a cold frozen lake and staying for a bit . She sure is making ice and not snowing .

TD

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Water isn't frozen here yet, but I will be taking the kid's out ice fishing once it does.

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Righton . I even have the bike/atv on it .

TD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sawbill

Regarding the HST that non-res pay, not long ago they could apply to have that money returned, in other words, not have to pay it at all.
To my knowledge, this hasn't changed.

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My packages do not qualify for the rebate.

Trimmer, still off base!! It's none of your business anyways. Cramping my business?? I don't do moose hunts.

Bushmoose, sit down, take a breath and get over the fact there are no tags left. Maybe you will have to learn to rabbit hunt in place of your moose hunt. Better yet, you can go through an outfitter if you can't get an adult tag on your own!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

My packages do not qualify for the rebate.

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Are you kidding? Every tourist is entitled to a tax rebate when leaving the country. You must have a little bit of the underground economy going on,there,eh,Chris? You wouldn't be cutting them a cash deal so you don't get pinched,would you? LOL

Trimmer, your spouting off again about something you don't know.

They changed the rules 2 years ago.

Been audited 3 times, I know better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foxx

Forget it Chris, we win this debate, go on to a different topic !!

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Foxx, everyone LOST, proof is no tags available!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Trimmer, your spouting off again about something you don't know.

They changed the rules 2 years ago.

Been audited 3 times, I know better.

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Check the CRA website,particularily reg GI-026 -GI-033. Your customers are still entitled to claim 50% of all HST paid while in Canada,especially clients using your services. The more you talk,the more it's becoming abundantly clear that either you're a crook ripping off your clients or you really needa better accountant and,possibly,a very good lawyer.

The packages (semi guided) do not qualify!!! Fully guided packages do. If they rent just a cabin it is rebated. Also tour groups qualify like bus tours or guided atv tours. Has to be fully guided.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

The packages (semi guided) do not qualify!!! Fully guided packages do. If they rent just a cabin it is rebated. Also tour groups qualify like bus tours or guided atv tours. Has to be fully guided.

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Help me understand this Chris

just renting a cabin qualifies for the rebate, but renting a cabin and being half guided doesn't? That does not make sense

That's right, it doesn't make sense but they won't rebate the tax to my hunters for the reasons I mentioned above.

Up to 2 years ago my hunters got 40% or so back. Now O% back.

They use to give the rebate at the duty free stores, but not anymore.

A nights cabin rental does not qualify but 4 nights does. Has to be over a certain amount of tax paid before they will rebate.

CHANGES CAME WHEN THEY CHANGED FROM GST TO HST!!

In total my hunters have put over $35,000.00 into the Ontario ECONOMY in 2014, this total consists of licenses and export permits along with HST alone. I am just a small outfitter.

I am happy to help out the ONTARIO economy!!!

but if you included game processing it would qualify as fully guided?