Monitoring Bore Pressure 10ML-II

I thought I would introduce this concept for some familiarity before Spring when I will be generating my own traces for specific duplex loads I want to explore. This particular trace is made by another individual who I have been in touch with in the past and getting to know him he is very meticulous with his work of generating traces.

For most the main interest is what peak pressure is generated from a specific powder load.
The next part is what my resulting velocity is that has to be measured separately with a chronograph. In this case it was measured with a Magnetospeed unit.
By manually incorporating the velocity into the program it can show us the time when the bullet leaves the bore as well as the relationship of the OBT Node or as some know it as the Sweet Spot.
This PT graph below will be used also for my initial calibration of the unit I own.

So my first trace for duplex in the future will be the 10/60grns of 4759/4198. So anyone that has remaining 4759 wanting to extend its usage you may want to consider going this route. What I don’t know is if the old or new 4759 was used for this trace but resulting velocity should reveal this.
Also be prepared for additional recoil with extra weight of powder and higher velocity than 2300fps. To reduce velocity I would just start with reducing the main 4198 a few grains at a time.

Attachment 28110


If you want to read further about the PT Unit or Magnetospeed chronograph you can go to the links I provide.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

http://www.magnetospeed.com/




Ed

Well there you go, I got out of the business so long ago I’m totally unaware of some of the kit that has been developed to do these kind of measurement. When I used to go to DREEV (Quebec city) and Nicolette (Three Rivers) …the labs there were still using lots of analog/tube equipment :)


What’s actually more amazing, is how much has been miniaturized and put in the hands of the end users on the range. Amazing stuff.


I hadn’t heard about these this MagnetoSpeed equipment using electromagnetic sensors to detect the presence of the bullet. How do they work with the lead bullets most common in ML’s ?

Thanks Ed…you brushing away a few cob webs !!!

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I hadn’t heard about these this MagnetoSpeed equipment using electromagnetic sensors to detect the presence of the bullet. How do they work with the lead bullets most common in ML’s ?

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Will a MagnetoSpeed Chronograph work with solids?

Last Updated: Dec 31, 2012 12:41PM CST

Yes, solids should perform about the same as standard copper-jacked rounds. If the round is made out of something that has very low electrical conductivity (like lead) you may have to make the device more sensitive by changing the bullet type setting, but most solids should work with the default settings.

Thanks Impact....don't like a company brochure that use the work 'should' though..LOL..

Without a brass cartridge to show increasing pressure signs you are left with the gun itself to show evidence of mounting pressures? Seems risky and potentially destructive to your gun. The ML10 is quite powerful as is why risk injury or damage by tinkering with duplex loads? My group ( 5 of us ) all shoot the Savage and we all shoot the exact same factory recommended loads and have no trouble taking down moose. The last one was 200 yds and went 300 ft before piling up. Clean pass through.

What is your moose load terrym? Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Without a brass cartridge to show increasing pressure signs you are left with the gun itself to show evidence of mounting pressures? Seems risky and potentially destructive to your gun. The ML10 is quite powerful as is why risk injury or damage by tinkering with duplex loads? My group ( 5 of us ) all shoot the Savage and we all shoot the exact same factory recommended loads and have no trouble taking down moose. The last one was 200 yds and went 300 ft before piling up. Clean pass through.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Without a brass cartridge to show increasing pressure signs you are left with the gun itself to show evidence of mounting pressures? Seems risky and potentially destructive to your gun. The ML10 is quite powerful as is why risk injury or damage by tinkering with duplex loads? My group ( 5 of us ) all shoot the Savage and we all shoot the exact same factory recommended loads and have no trouble taking down moose. The last one was 200 yds and went 300 ft before piling up. Clean pass through.

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My thoughts exactly, there have been to many experimenters that have damaged their Savage ML's and then they tell us that it was the "fault of a poorly designed firearm" , there have been lots of these to read about on other forums.
But to each their own , however I wish they wouldn't post this stuff on open forums where the inexperienced would try to experiment also and cause damage to themselves.
This stuff should be on a forum strictly dedicated to those that want to experiment.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

My thoughts exactly, there have been to many experimenters that have damaged their Savage ML's and then they tell us that it was the "fault of a poorly designed firearm" , there have been lots of these to read about on other forums.
But to each their own , however I wish they wouldn't post this stuff on open forums where the inexperienced would try to experiment also and cause damage to themselves.
This stuff should be on a forum strictly dedicated to those that want to experiment.

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I agree. Too many people who are not familiar with smokeless powder reloading are at risk. A 5% error in a black powder load will just kick harder. A 5% error in smokeless could land you in an emergency ward. Apples & Oranges. The ML10 is a formidable hunting tool and now discontinued due to law suits and incompetent users. Why risk damaging a firearm that has already doubled in value?

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Originally Posted by trailblzr

What is your moose load terrym? Thanks in advance.

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PM sent

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Originally Posted by terrym

The ML10 is a formidable hunting tool and now discontinued due to law suits and incompetent users. Why risk damaging a firearm that has already doubled in value?

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Savage discontinued production because it didn't meet the sales expectations. So now there are no production smokeless muzzleloaders offered there is still plenty of demand for smokeless muzzleloading and plenty of custom builders offering them.
All muzzleloaders have the potential risk of someone using incorrect load/applications.
What Ed is demonstrating ( with the use of pressure tracing) is how the risk of damaging your gun is reduced by using an effective load that brings the barrel pressure down below the Book Load recommendations. How is this a bad thing?
This is proof positive on what the barrel pressures are for a specific load and not just some willy nilly load recommendation by someone that knew someones second cousin twice removed.

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Originally Posted by smokeeter

What Ed is demonstrating ( with the use of pressure tracing) is how the risk of damaging your gun is reduced by using an effective load that brings the barrel pressure down below the Book Load recommendations. How is this a bad thing?
This is proof positive on what the barrel pressures are for a specific load and not just some willy nilly load recommendation by someone that knew someones second cousin twice removed.

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excellent response..'Tip of the Hat' to you smokeeter !!

Are you using a computer model and chronograph to determine pressures? If this is the case I stand by my response. If you have actual equipment that accurately measure chamber pressure in your "particular" firearm then you could work up to higher pressures safely. Individual samples of the same gun can have differing internal dimensions which will affect chamber pressures so no computer program can account for this without actual measurement tools. The inexact process of manually seating a bullet into the powder charge alone has enough potential to affect chamber pressure. This is why competitive bench rest shooters weigh each case individually to maintain uniformity of chamber pressure and repeatable accuracy. Personally an extra few fps in a muzzle loader doesn't mean that much to me. But to each their own.
But let's be clear here. An American firearms manufacturer recommending a safe load in their product is not what I would consider a "Willy Nilly" load by amateurs. They have extensive and expensive laboratories for testing and also the constant oversight of lawyers covering their butts from frivolous law suits from basement ballisticians.

Terrym

You’ve obviously missed the point of using the pressure trace unit for monitoring pressure of certain loads. If you read up about the unit it can measure pressure in a cartridge rifle, shotgun and pistol loads if you like. This is more accurate than hoping to see signs on a brass cartridge. The blind factor of not knowing the pressure has been removed by this unit if setup properly.

If you are comfortable with remaining with RECOMMENDED loads then by all means I recommend staying put. You are not being asked to change anything you do but invited to follow if you desire to do so with the aid of today’s technology leading the way.
By the way a 43gr of the old 4759 produced over 35kpsi. Whereas this duplex of 10/60, 4759/4198 produced about 1Kpsi less pressure and 200fps higher velocity with a 250gr bullet. That extra 200fps is now ideal with an all copper bullet whereas the SST or SW would react more volatile at closer range.

Trying and using duplex loads is a choice and not being forced on anyone. Again if you wish to remain behind in what you believe is a safe sheltered environment then do so. I intend to move forward like Henry Ball did when he first pioneered the use of smokeless powder in the 10ML-II. He also had a lot of negativity expressed by others that it was a dangerous move back then.

Ed

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Originally Posted by ET1

Terrym

You’ve obviously missed the point of using the pressure trace unit for monitoring pressure of certain loads. If you read up about the unit it can measure pressure in a cartridge rifle, shotgun and pistol loads if you like.

Ed

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Clearly I know nothing about this device. Do you have one? How much is this device worth? I have to wonder how feasible it would be for the average handloader to justify an expense like this. I am not doubting such a device is available and functional. My point is in a muzzle loader you have no metallic cartridge to contain the powder charge in the chamber. Also the seating of the bullet is an inexact process, no bolt face to lock up in the exact same dimension every time time the firearm is locked and loaded. So, given these variables repeating the exact same chamber dimensions and therefore chamber pressures is a problem. How does this device compensate for this? It would seem to me that this would be almost impossible since you can't guarantee the exact same chamber dimensions when manually seating a bullet. How does it compensate for the various sabot profiles and dimensions? All these variables make bells go off in my handloader's mind. Educate me on this device?

following the same train of thought, what makes the recommended book loads from savage any safer?
at least with the experimentation with slower powders and duplex loads that are measured with this tracing equipment the margin is even lower.
The savage was tested to 80,000 psi and a recommended 50,000 psi max. is leaving a good buffer.

Terrym

First off I do have a pressure trace unit that interfaces with a laptop. A strain gauge is attached over the bore chamber area on the barrel that measures the amount of metal stress along with the attached PT unit translates that into pressure for the lab top to record on a graph. Check the site for some info on cost and further questions about the unit and requirements involved.
Also 5% load error won’t affect the safety of a 10ML-II as we are at least 40Kpsi away from yield strength. 5% with a brass cartridge rifle that is much closer to using max pressure is another story and you can’t compare the two.
The amount of difference in 2-different firearms (10ML-II) is not significant enough for concern because again we are at such a lower pressure range from detrimental max to begin with.

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“Also the seating of the bullet is an inexact process, no bolt face to lock up in the exact same dimension every time time the firearm is locked and loaded.”
The bullet has no land engraving so why is bullet position of any importance?
Regardless the PT units function is to measure pressure regardless of other parameters. So if pressure is altered in any way the barrel stress experienced will reveal it to the strain gauge.

Jaycee you show your ignorance again about users and experimenters. There are all kinds of users out there that carelessly experiment, double load, etc and you are not going to stop them with hiding accurate information that could be provided. They do exist and will continue to do so. This will not plant any ideas that don’t already exist in their heads or what they come up with.

When I start posting about duplex loads I will provide the most accurate info I can produce with whatever tangible evidence I can provide.
Use it or don’t use it will be up to the shooter of a 10ML-II to decide but he won’t be blind and worrying about unknown bore pressures.


Ed

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Jaycee you show your ignorance again about users and experimenters. There are all kinds of users out there that carelessly experiment, double load, etc and you are not going to stop them with hiding accurate information that could be provided. They do exist and will continue to do so. This will not plant any ideas that don’t already exist in their heads or what they come up with.

When I start posting about duplex loads I will provide the most accurate info I can produce with whatever tangible evidence I can provide.
Use it or don’t use it will be up to the shooter of a 10ML-II to decide but he won’t be blind and worrying about unknown bore pressures.

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Absolutely NO IGNORANCE shown here , just stating what "I have also seen over the years " and one that happened not far from my place , "experimenters trying duplex loads , actually a couple of farm lads " blew up a brand new CVA ML , one ended up in a coma for a few days .
There have been a few guys that blew up their ML's at the club by experimenting with something that they knew nothing about.
I keep mentioning "the inexperienced" somehow this isn't getting through to you, you can keep on with what you are doing as you have experience and the necessary equipment to do it , but ! you make it sound as if anyone can do it.

One thing you should do is CAUTION EVEREYONE , that this is not for all to proceed with , as it can be very dangerous.

This is very similar to metallic rifle cartridge reloading , where some have picked up a pound of powder with no idea if it is compatible with the cartridge they are trying/going to reload . the use of the wrong powder can have disastrous results.
Loading Manuals have cautionary notices in them about using non published loads and their dangers, some loads are not recommended to be used in older guns , other cautions are ;use maximum loads with caution or loads less than minimum charge shown are not recommended.

I have yet to see you cautioning anyone to use your loads with care , ie;
So my first trace for duplex in the future will be the 10/60grns of 4759/4198. So anyone that has remaining 4759 wanting to extend its usage you may want to consider going this route. What I don’t know is if the old or new 4759 was used for this trace but resulting velocity should reveal this.
Also be prepared for additional recoil with extra weight of powder and higher velocity than 2300fps. To reduce velocity I would just start with reducing the main 4198 a few grains at a time.

Terrym

To partial answer some of your questions;
No it is not cheap.
No it is not user friendly for learning how to use.
No it does not come with a lab top which you will need.
But priceless to have for safety reason alone.

The 2-screens below provided as an example by the manual is what you will work with for recording. Also note you tell it what case thickness if any is used say with a CF casing so that it adjusts for allowance of the brass casing.

Attachment 28111 Attachment 28112



Ed

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I keep mentioning "the inexperienced" somehow this isn't getting through to you, you can keep on with what you are doing as you have experience and the necessary equipment to do it , but ! you make it sound as if anyone can do it.

One thing you should do is CAUTION EVEREYONE , that this is not for all to proceed with , as it can be very dangerous.

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Jaycee, this thread, is in a continuing series of discussion Ed has been contributed to us in the Muzzle Loader forum. The regulars here who are participating in them are well versed and experienced. This particular one is discussing the means to measure the pressure aspects of working up a duplex load. I no way has it implied that unskilled shooters should go out and mix powders.

So to have to warn people continuously "don't do this at home' would be as annoying and as pointless as watching those after the commercial breaks on TV...and are not really required.

Jaycee

First off, yes I’m quite aware there are inexperienced individuals out there that know better of what not to do. I have no control over their actions if they get careless or want to go off on a scary tangent. So what does this have to do with me for providing accurate information to work with. Do you think I would purposely post a dangerous load?

Using this equipment anyone can learn to operate it just like learning how to operate a computer or operate a lathe or use a muzzle loader. I’m not going to discourage anyone of not trying what I have found to be a safe duplex load.
Yes manuals have published safe loads for the inexperienced. Usually you would see the wording recommended and not specifying the limitation. So tell me why the manual is not worded with the word limitation?

Why would I caution the use of a safe load? To add a caution is like saying I have doubts about this load when I do not. That would be like inviting a person to enter a safe room and tell them to be cautious when they enter. Does that make sense to you?

I don’t have a problem with anyone pointing out safety but you haven’t mentioned anything with good reasoning that would make me consider unsafe about duplex data being shared especially backed by Pressure Trace Readings.
The only time I will use the wording “Proceed with Caution” with a load if it falls within 40K to 45K. I will not post duplex loads over 45K because even I won’t use them.


Ed

You may think you are being informative but you are treading on thin ice. By quoting your experimental duplex load data you have no control over what others do with that information. Duplex loads are not for general consumption and extremely dangerous. The equipment you say you use is worth @ $1000 and I guarantee you there would be nowhere near 1% of seasoned handloaders who would ever consider buying that stuff. The questions here are about "what is a good deal on a first press" not what type of equipment do I need to test the metallurgy of my gun to make sure I don't blow it up with a non proven duplex load. This why experienced loaders here always warn people to be safe. Like don't buy open cans of powder at a gun show or handloads from strangers. I have been handloading for 35 years and still have ten fingers and both eyes and intend to keep it that way. Try putting in an insurance health claim of any type after blowing yourself up and let us know how you make out. At this point you would be better off explaining to the inexperienced what a duplex load is and the possible perils/effects of making a mistake. Lot's of guys getting into it here and this is in no way helpful or responsible. Once you light up that charge and it goes "BOOM" hindsight won't reverse the possible injuries.

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Originally Posted by terrym

At this point you would be better off explaining to the inexperienced what a duplex load is and the possible perils/effects of making a mistake. Lot's of guys getting into it here and this is in no way helpful or responsible.

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Like I said to Jaycee...this thread is part of a continuing series with guys who are experienced.

In fact Ed has already posted a warning, his 1st sentence, about duplex load in an earlier thread on this topic.

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First off I’m not promoting for anyone to try or use a duplex powder load in a SML. As stated in another post I personally have been using a single powder load for my 10ML-II for years because it sufficiently provided what I needed for a given load. But now I find myself at a cross road where more than likely I will need to duplex for my new load parameters.

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from, a thread called Purpose of Duplex Loads:

http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...ex-Powder-Load

Terrym

First off I have been reloading for 35+ years so what does that prove.
Besides why is hand-loading reference even appearing in the muzzle loading forum?
For the record I have used explosives in metal forming and had a license for Alberta and Saskatchewan for using explosives. I still have all my fingers, thumbs and eyesight so do you think I treat handling explosive material lightly?

So by displaying accurate pressure info on duplex loads is not helpful to others venturing in this area?
I’ve already touched on duplex load application in a previous thread if you were paying attention.

Criticize and character assassinate all you want to build your own character in front of others. I’ll stick to generating accurate info that may be helpful to others to allow them to safely navigate with some duplex loads instead of dangerously probing in the dark.


Ed

The barrel's are tested to 129,000 psi so be it 34 or 35,000 psi ? Go through this added head ache / not hunter friendly for 200 fps? Screw the added duplex stuff. But have fun continue on. That and duplex load's are easy to come by , If you can answer this page then you have the power to research I did it with in minute's just not interested.

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Originally Posted by Exo200

The barrel's are tested to 129,000 psi so be it 34 or 35,000 psi ? Go through this added head ache / not hunter friendly for 200 fps? Screw the added duplex stuff. But have fun continue on. That and duplex load's are easy to come by , If you can answer this page then you have the power to research I did it with in minute's just not interested.

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It is not really just about more velocity. Duplex loads can improve ignition of the charge and increase burn efficiency. This isn't a new thing and has been going on ever since I bought my Savage 5 years ago. http://dougsmessageboards.proboards....-muzzleloading

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Originally Posted by rippin_355

It is not really just about more velocity. Duplex loads can improve ignition of the charge and increase burn efficiency. This isn't a new thing and has been going on ever since I bought my Savage 5 years ago. http://dougsmessageboards.proboards....-muzzleloading

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Have you ever experienced an inefficient burn on ignition with smokeless powder? Have you ever experienced an ignition problem that was powder related as opposed to a defective primer or dirty vent hole? Not likely. You people are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The Savage uses the same ignition components as a modern centerfire except for a shotgun primer. There is no need to reduce pressures when using tested and proven factory load data. The marginal increase in velocity isn't worth risking injury. We kill bull moose pretty well every year up to 200 yds with factory recommended loads. You are not helping people by proposing this stuff. More people have seriously hurt themselves and blown up Savages than any other modern inline. Savage Corp has dozens of active law suits against them because of "experts" who feel they can do better than Savage's multi million dollar ballistics labs that is staffed with Engineers . And let's not forget we are talking about America, the land where mothers sue their children over spilled milk. I'll side with the professionals. But hey whatever floats your boat.......

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Originally Posted by Exo200

The barrel's are tested to 129,000 psi so be it 34 or 35,000 psi ? Go through this added head ache / not hunter friendly for 200 fps? Screw the added duplex stuff. But have fun continue on. That and duplex load's are easy to come by , If you can answer this page then you have the power to research I did it with in minute's just not interested.

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Exo200

Okay you stated you weren’t interested but had to respond for what purpose?
If I wasn’t interested in something I wouldn’t even respond to it.
Answer what page?
Pray tell where duplex loads for the 50 are easy to come by?

The quoted pressure of 129,000 is for the original 10ML and not the 10ML-II which is less. You couldn’t even get that right. The pressure you should be concerned with is getting over 80,000 where barrels can be bulged or ruined without rupturing.

Your post reveals how little you actually know about the 10ML-II smokeless muzzle loader.


Ed

Terrym

Who said or mentioned anything about problem solving?
Is this something you thought up?
What was mentioned was the possible positive results of using duplex over single powder loads. My how that got twisted around.

Who promoted or said anything about helping anyone with a problem. This is about choice or options for the shooter with eventual proven test results for them to see. Your comments and approach would be to deny them this choice with negative comments you presented. I give more credit to the shooter’s intelligence to decide for himself if he does or doesn’t want to use this provided info.


Ed