a serious talk about steelhead.

I am consistently confused by the use of the name steelhead to describe great lakes Rainbow Trout.
I understand the layman using colloquialisms, i do this all the time!
i grew up hunting "chickens"/"partridge" which are really grouse. and i am one of those people that has never said "walleye" in his life, i call them "pickerel" i get it.
but this magazine does NOT adopt any of these nicknames, why then does it adopt the false name of steelhead for great lakes rainbow trout?
and finally to all the people that are going to light me on fire for this, PLEASE, stop saying that they are anadromous, THEY ARE NOT. Steelhead are anadromous, the rainbow trout of the great lakes are not anadromous, they are potamodromous, meaning they never live in saltwater, they spawn from freshwater, to freshwater.
there are no ontario fishing records for steelhead, BECAUSE WE DONT HAVE ANY STEELHEAD IN ONTARIO.
it's maddening this magazine should be above this.
http://www.ofah.org/fishing/ofah-ont...-fish-registry

i have never read an article about partridge in your magazine or about pickerel, they are always referred to as grouse and walleye. so why am i reading all of these articles about steelhead?

your magazine should make a bigger attempt at being educational. i understand that calling them steelhead is pervasive in southern ontario, but that doesn't make them steelhead. just as us northerners calling them pickerel doesn't make it so.

please explain the reasoning behind this?
i am assuming the answer is going to be "to help the reader distinguish between great lakes rainbows and rainbows in the rest of the province, but frankly that is just lazy.

Genetically they are all the same - Rainbow vs. steelhead in Ontario - It's the same species. Who cares.

OK there are definitely differences between a small lake caught rainbow and a great lakes river run rainbow, the observable physical differences, must obviously be due to their living conditions, ie. - small lake vs. great lake, or schooling baitfish as a food source, vs invertebrates, whatever!

If you go to BC and catch a stealhead and put its hatchlings half into small lakes, and half into the great lakes you'll quickly observe this.

What about the pacific salmon we have in the great lakes - they are or were an anadromous species regardless of where you put them, so are speckled trout, and stealhead.


So what do you propose we call these great lakes rainbows, that are obviously physically different than the small lake rainbows?

How about Chrome-heads? - LOL

Here is another scenario for you

Speckled trout live in ponds, lakes, oceans, rivers, and great lakes. They are all still speckled trout. The ones that run up the rivers from the ocean we refer to them as sea run speckled trout, the ones in the great lakes are called coaster speckled trout, and the rest are called just speckled trout, or brook trout or in newfoundland - Mud Trout.

We fishermen are obviously smart enough to know differences in species to species, and differences within a species.

When you see records for speckled trout it doesn't matter what subspecies it is, should it be the same for rainbow trout?

What about the Atlantic salmon now found on the pacific coast, should we continue to call them Atlantic salmon now that they are not in the Atlantic

I hope you understand what I'm getting at here, who gives a rats arse. We know what were talking about, some people like to get a bit too nitpickey.

As far as I'm concerned the Magazine does make the correct distinction for the audience, in Ontario we have two physically different type of rainbow, and the name chosen for the great lakes version, is the same name that exact species is called in its homeland, where its genetics are sourced.

MC

maybe at one point of time before all the channels and locks these rainbow did come from the atlantic into lake ontario from the st lawrence river. This is not a fact just a guess.

MC,
i am thankful and do appreciate your response.
here's my respond. outside of southern ontario, they are NEVER referred to as Steelhead.
it is understood worldwide that steelhead are anadromous. great lakes fish are are not. If you want to be the itty bitty community in the entire world using a certain name, that's fine(i have done the same with partridge.) but a magazine should not be a part of it.
As a pickerel is really a walleye, a steelhead is really a rainbow trout.

Rainbow NEVER cam from the antlantic, they are an non-native speicies that we put here.
They are the same as Asian carp, except we want them here.... they don't belong here.
Rainbows were transplanted and never belonged here. they stay because they are popular and make money. but they are an non-native species just like asian carp.
the difference is, no one wants asian carp, they want rainbows, so we pick our invasive non-native species

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

here's my respond. outside of southern ontario, they are NEVER referred to as Steelhead.

---

Sorry, but that's simply untrue. The same distinction is made in the Great Lakes states: rainbow are resident fish, steelhead migratory.

If you want to get picky, there is no such thing as a steelhead, period, because there is no genetic marker to distinguish anadromous west coast fish from their resident brethren.

that is a ridiculous statement, all rainbow trout or steelhead migrate to spawn. the difference is that steelhead AROUND THE WORLD are known as anadromous. rainbows are understood as potamodromous.... ALL fish by these names spawn in rivers and streams. they all migrate... you're reading the wrong books.
ALL major organizations agree with this fact.
It is a Worldwide understanding outside of southern ontario. the provincial fishing records do not even refer to Steelhead, so why does this magazine?

Can we not agree that our magazine should use national (if not worldwide) terms when describing fish?
i don't expect to see articles about snakes (northern pike) in the future. or partridge (ruffed grouse) so why is it acceptable to adopt this nickname???
certainly there is no scientific/gentic differentiation, but why not adopt the understood norm? when the fact is, only a small pocket of ontario in the entire world, uses this language.....
as i've said before, why no articles about pickerel???? it's the same thing....

"Southern ontario pays the bills" so that's why the term is used? is that it? i'm ok with that, i just want to hear someone say it..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

It is a Worldwide understanding outside of southern ontario. the provincial fishing records do not even refer to Steelhead, so why does this magazine?

---

Again, and without being polite this time: BS. You don't know what you're talking about.

This is not "a worldwide understanding." Every American fly-fishing magazine refers to migratory Great Lakes rainbows as steelhead. Any number of American websites do the same. This usage is not in any way restricted to southern Ontario.

Some examples, since obviously you won't take my word for it.
The Steelhead Site, based in Illinois and focusing on Great Lakes fishing:
https://steelheadsite.com/
University of Michigan site with lesson plan on Great Lakes steelhead:
http://www.miseagrant.umich.edu/less...for-steelhead/
Michigan DNR page on steelhead:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...5692--,00.html
John Nagy, American steelhead guide:
http://www.johnnagysteelheadguide.com/
Rio lines article on Great Lakes steelhead:
http://www.rioproducts.com/blog/wint...ete-humphreys/

I'd suggest you take two and a half minutes to check into this. "Steelhead" for migratory rainbows is not southern Ontario slang. It's common usage throughout the Great Lakes region.

Whether or not the fish genuinely are "steelhead" is irrelevant, especially given that there is no genetic difference between an anadromous steelhead and a resident rainbow trout. You have said that only in southern Ontario are migratory rainbows called "steelhead." I have just proven you are full of it.

Is there anything left to say here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

Can we not agree that our magazine should use national (if not worldwide) terms when describing fish?
only a small pocket of ontario in the entire world, uses this language...

---

What is the name of the magazine?
Worldwide out of doors?

Guys relax, steelhead are largely understood worlrdwide as anadromous fish.
in ontario, our rainbows are not anadromous.
get over it.
Any rainbow caught in the great lakes should NOT be called a steellhead. because it isn't
FURTHERMORE ANY RAINBOW OR ASIAN CARP is an invasive species...
neither belongs in southern ontario

You must be bored. Who cares steelhead or Rainbow, Potato or Patato LOL There rainbow trout end of story.

To me Steelhead means migratory rainbow trout. Meaning that they live in big bodies of water and enter a river system to spawn. Maybe the here fish would enter salt water if it was accessible to them. Rainbow trout, Steelhead or whatever all came from the west coast where they were "sea run". Not having access to salt water doesn't make them any different. And about the Pickerel thing, Pickerel are a member of the Esox (pike) genus. And walleye are a member of the Sander (perch) genus.

MR/MRS rippin355,
Everything you said is on point. and i respect you 100%.
To be a jerk, All Rainbow trout, spawn up stream. they all go up a river. Worldwide Steelhead are understood as saltwater fish spawning in freshwater... OOD magazine has decided that a niche market in southern ontario calling them "steelhead" justifies their naming....
I agree that Pickerel is not the appropriate term for walleye in northern ontario, nor is steelhead for southern ontario rainbow trout.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by welsh

Again, and without being polite this time: BS. You don't know what you're talking about.

This is not "a worldwide understanding." Every American fly-fishing magazine refers to migratory Great Lakes rainbows as steelhead. Any number of American websites do the same. This usage is not in any way restricted to southern Ontario.

Some examples, since obviously you won't take my word for it.
The Steelhead Site, based in Illinois and focusing on Great Lakes fishing:
https://steelheadsite.com/
University of Michigan site with lesson plan on Great Lakes steelhead:
http://www.miseagrant.umich.edu/less...for-steelhead/
Michigan DNR page on steelhead:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...5692--,00.html
John Nagy, American steelhead guide:
http://www.johnnagysteelheadguide.com/
Rio lines article on Great Lakes steelhead:
http://www.rioproducts.com/blog/wint...ete-humphreys/

I'd suggest you take two and a half minutes to check into this. "Steelhead" for migratory rainbows is not southern Ontario slang. It's common usage throughout the Great Lakes region.

Whether or not the fish genuinely are "steelhead" is irrelevant, especially given that there is no genetic difference between an anadromous steelhead and a resident rainbow trout. You have said that only in southern Ontario are migratory rainbows called "steelhead." I have just proven you are full of it.

Is there anything left to say here?

---

Mr/Mrs
i 100% respect and am thank you for your response.
i started a thread here that sounds like "LETS FIGHT" i swear i'd rather hang out and have a beer.

moving onto the topic. i understand you can fine websites that scream STEELHEAD. if you want to fight the battle that way, i can too.
i can start with far more credible organizations than you.
i don't mean to. but you brought it up.
http://www.nwf.org/wildlife/wildlife...steelhead.aspx
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/salmon/steelhead.html


My point was simple, although Hate has been widespread.... If provincial and national records ONLY RECOGNIZE rainbow trout, why does our magazine call them Steelhead.
that's my bottom line. answer that question, instead of screaming semantics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

moving onto the topic. i understand you can fine websites that scream STEELHEAD. if you want to fight the battle that way, i can too.
i can start with far more credible organizations than you.

---

Really? So the University of Michigan and the Michigan DNR, they're not credible? And a couple of websites pitched at a lay audience that happen to use the term "anadromous," that trumps all?

You're moving the goalposts. I did a quick Google on "Great Lakes steelhead," and cited what popped up in the first page or two as examples of how widespread the usage is. I was never trying to establish if steelhead must by definition be anadromous, in the first place because that wasn't the point I was addressing (it was your false claim that the usage is regional), and in the second place because the question is silly.

Here's why: the funny thing about common names is, whatever people happen to call something is, by definition, its common name. Every fly fishing magazine in North America calls the Great Lakes fish "steelhead," as do management agencies and anglers throughout the Great Lakes region. Ergo, that's their common name.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

My point was simple, although Hate has been widespread.... If provincial and national records ONLY RECOGNIZE rainbow trout, why does our magazine call them Steelhead.
that's my bottom line. answer that question, instead of screaming semantics.

---

Wait a minute. You want to start a thread about whether the common name of a fish is correct, and then complain that I'm dealing in semantics? You do realize what that word means, right?

If provincial records recognize only "rainbow trout," then that's because rainbow trout and steelhead are the same species: Oncorhynchus mykiss. Nothing could stop me from catching a lake run fish and then submitting it as a provincial record resident rainbow, because nobody can tell the difference on the basis of genetics. The difference is purely behavioural. So the record books recognize one fish.

The magazine calls them steelhead because that's the accepted usage throughout North America. That's the answer. And since I've already pointed out that this is the accepted usage, I'm not sure why you're asking me to point it out again.

You asserted that this usage is restricted to southern Ontario, that this is a purely regional usage. I demonstrated that it is not. Now you're trying to move the goalposts, and to pretend that it's somehow wrong for the magazine to use a common name that's in widespread use, because it can only be legitimately applied to anadromous fish -- which is nonsense, for the reasons explained above.

Trolling is one method of catching steelhead. Just by the way.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

Worldwide Steelhead are understood as saltwater fish spawning in freshwater...

---

No. That is incorrect, as I have already demonstrated. The Great Lakes fish is called a "steelhead" in both Canada and the US.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

OOD magazine has decided that a niche market in southern ontario calling them "steelhead" justifies their naming....

---

OOD is following the popular usage, which is also in use by Outdoor Canada, Field & Stream, Outdoor Life, Fly Fisherman, American Angler, and so on and so forth. It's not a niche market in southern Ontario; it's common usage throughout North America. And for you to continue to pretend otherwise after I have demonstrated this to be the case is flat-out dishonest.

Thanks Welsh, you know what a magazine should do? whatever they're told.... that's the same as being right....?
congrats....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by welsh

No. That is incorrect, as I have already demonstrated. The Great Lakes fish is called a "steelhead" in both Canada and the US.



OOD is following the popular usage, which is also in use by Outdoor Canada, Field & Stream, Outdoor Life, Fly Fisherman, American Angler, and so on and so forth. It's not a niche market in southern Ontario; it's common usage throughout North America. And for you to continue to pretend otherwise after I have demonstrated this to be the case is flat-out dishonest.

---

MY apologies... i didn't realize that american usage legitamized the fact. here are two Major and Reputable organizations that do not agree with you.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/...ead-trout.html
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documen...lheadtrout.pdf

Given that NO GOVERNMENT BODY adopts the name steelhead, can we not agree that the word does not belong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

Thanks Welsh, you know what a magazine should do? whatever they're told....

---

Told by whom? A magazine should follow established usage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

MY apologies... i didn't realize that american usage legitamized the fact.

---

You started out saying this usage was restricted to southern Ontario, and that everywhere else in the world used "rainbow trout." Now you're saying that what people call them everywhere else in the world isn't relevant? Those goalposts just keep right on moving....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flytyermiller

here are two Major and Reputable organizations that do not agree with you.

---

Actually, neither disagree with me. They both address the steelhead/rainbow in its native range only, and don't discuss Great Lakes fish at all.

Can you find a fisheries scientist who says that steelhead transplanted to the Great Lakes cease to be steelhead? This is the proposition you need to prove here. Digging out links where someone on the West Coast says "steelhead are anadromous" in the context of the West Coast fishery establishes nothing. You need to find a fisheries biologist who is saying that the Great Lakes fish is not a steelhead, on taxonomic grounds.

You won't find one. I have on my bookshelf Scott and Crossman and also McCrimmon's summary of the stocking history of the Great Lakes. Care to hazard a guess as to what kind of fish have been used for most stocking in the Great Lakes? That's right: anadromous steelhead, transplanted to Ontario and stocked in a landlocked environment.

In taxonomic terms, the current consensus is that "steelhead" is a largely meaningless word. It does not describe a fish; it describes a life history strategy.

what should we call the fish that run up the rivers to spawn versus the trout that live in small lakes and pounds that never run up rivers to spawn .thy are both rainbow trout ,but what and how will we tell them apart .it is like walleye ,we call the ones in the great lakes pickerel and the ones in the small northern lakes walleye ,the pics we catch in the great lakes are much bigger and lighter in color then the northern lakes walleye .it works for us and everybody knows what we are talking about .Dutch

Misnomer title. This is not a serious talk; it's just another rant on semantics. If you're not referring to them as Oncorhynchus mykiss, then you are using colloquial slang no matter what you call them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hunterdave

Misnomer title. This is not a serious talk; it's just another rant on semantics. If you're not referring to them as Oncorhynchus mykiss, then you are using colloquial slang no matter what you call them.

---

Very valid point.

Any questions regarding the magazine may be directed to [email protected] - they will make sure to forward your question to the proper team member(s) for an answer.