Two more big black eyes. What a shame!

http://www.mykawartha.com/news-story...ighlands-park/

http://www.intelligencer.ca/2014/12/...by-animal-trap

Good Lord, this crap has got to stop before we lose our trapping industry. Makes me sick to read this, and I really feel bad for the folks who lost their dogs. It doesn't seem like the message is being reinforced strongly enough. I don't care if you're on private property, or you're working Crown land on a registered line. If even the potential exists that other users (and their pets) are on that land, you need to take responsibility for their welfare. I don't know how you can leave a kill trap on the ground, and sleep at night. None of this had to happen. Take a few more minutes to make a responsible set, and get your trap elevated. I'm trying to imagine going for a grouse run with my Lab over at Kaw. Highlands, and having him killed because some pecker head left a kill set on the ground, on public land. I'm not seeing a positive outcome. It's almost to the point now that it might be time to get an ammendment to the regs, to protect the industry eg. listed townships where it is an offence to put your kill set on the ground. Something has to change, or our days are numbered if this keeps up!

Dave

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

http://www.mykawartha.com/news-story...ighlands-park/

http://www.intelligencer.ca/2014/12/...by-animal-trap

Good Lord, this crap has got to stop before we lose our trapping industry. Makes me sick to read this, and I really feel bad for the folks who lost their dogs. It doesn't seem like the message is being reinforced strongly enough. I don't care if you're on private property, or you're working Crown land on a registered line. If even the potential exists that other users (and their pets) are on that land, you need to take responsibility for their welfare. I don't know how you can leave a kill trap on the ground, and sleep at night. None of this had to happen. Take a few more minutes to make a responsible set, and get your trap elevated. I'm trying to imagine going for a grouse run with my Lab over at Kaw. Highlands, and having him killed because some pecker head left a kill set on the ground, on public land. I'm not seeing a positive outcome. It's almost to the point now that it might be time to get an ammendment to the regs, to protect the industry eg. listed townships where it is an offence to put your kill set on the ground. Something has to change, or our days are numbered if this keeps up!

Dave

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Blaming the trapper isn't right. Notice that the traps were set well off the trails. Nowhere,except in a designated "dog park",are dogs allowed to be off-leash when not confined to their own property. People need to keep their pets on a leash.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Blaming the trapper isn't right. Notice that the traps were set well off the trails. Nowhere,except in a designated "dog park",are dogs allowed to be off-leash when not confined to their own property. People need to keep their pets on a leash.

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I agree with you to an extant, however whom ever set the trap , should also have given more thought as to where he set it knowing full well that the public uses the trail for their own pleasure .
Just a thought , maybe this was a planned set up ????

Pretty much a cardinal rule. Don't set traps where non-targeted animals(pets/livestock) can get in them. For most situations that means off the ground/well off roads, trails etc.

I have had private land in the States where a land owner's daughter(unknown to her dad) allowed her boyfriend to "walk his dog" on that property." Fortunately, my sets were safe WRT his dog however, he took it upon himself to spring them as he discovered them the first time, which was dangerous in a whole different way.

It is a delicate situation for sure. I'll be interested to see what the outcome is, although I'm doubtful that anything will happen. Just to clarify the dog that was killed near KHPP was actually not in the park but on crown land close to the park. Not that it really makes a difference but I would hate to see the park getting pressured to ban trapping because of misinformation.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

.... Nowhere,except in a designated "dog park",are dogs allowed to be off-leash when not confined to their own property. People need to keep their pets on a leash.

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city guy ;-)
next time I go hunting, I'll think of you when I carry my dog in a purse...

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Nowhere,except in a designated "dog park",are dogs allowed to be off-leash when not confined to their own property. People need to keep their pets on a leash.

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Huh?.....:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Blaming the trapper isn't right. Notice that the traps were set well off the trails. Nowhere,except in a designated "dog park",are dogs allowed to be off-leash when not confined to their own property. People need to keep their pets on a leash.

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Wabbit huntin with beagles? coyote Huntin with hounds? Its so much harder with these dammed leashes.

Takes a special setter to find pheasant when leashed. Just giving you a hard time Trimmer. :)

However, whenever you let a dog off the leash to hunt , a multitude of things can go wrong ; an unexpected trap is just one of them . Just a risk you take. jmo

lazy trappers like this one will cause drastic changes in regulations sooner than later. just wait until a person dies and it'll be all done with even in the land of the pelts...
I saw that before (although trapping was over there at that time only predator management). Some lazy idiot put an egg next to a public hiking trail (chicken eggs for martens, because of the few legal type of traps there even back then). Some old woman picked it up for whatever reason. The wannabe trapper came back and put out another egg, the same old woman came by and picked it up... Finally, that guy puts out the trap. Because it's next to the trail, he makes sure it cannot be stolen! Did a really good job digging all the chain with the lock in. Anyway, the old woman comes back, picks up the egg and hangs in there with her arm unable to free herself. Long story short, she died of hypothermia, because that idiot chained it to a tree with a lock.
The moral of the story, the idiot got charged, and because he lacked common sense, the rules were improved in favour of public safety: Need a sign for a trap, trap to be placed in fenced area or enclosure. A few years later, further improvement (although I don't remember what triggered that; maybe just some left wing urbanites) came along - you were supposed to put the "safety" on during the daytime (meaning you have to walk up to each trap twice a day!). Useless to say, that there's nobody left to complain about the fur market any longer...

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Blaming the trapper isn't right. Notice that the traps were set well off the trails. Nowhere,except in a designated "dog park",are dogs allowed to be off-leash when not confined to their own property. People need to keep their pets on a leash.

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nonsense indeed, it's the other way around, dogs DO NOT have to be leashed, unless there's a by-law in place.

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

lazy trappers like this one will cause drastic changes in regulations sooner than later. just wait until a person dies and it'll be all done with even in the land of the pelts...
I saw that before (although trapping was over there at that time only predator management). Some lazy idiot put an egg next to a public hiking trail (chicken eggs for martens, because of the few legal type of traps there even back then). Some old woman picked it up for whatever reason. The wannabe trapper came back and put out another egg, the same old woman came by and picked it up... Finally, that guy puts out the trap. Because it's next to the trail, he makes sure it cannot be stolen! Did a really good job digging all the chain with the lock in. Anyway, the old woman comes back, picks up the egg and hangs in there with her arm unable to free herself. Long story short, she died of hypothermia, because that idiot chained it to a tree with a lock.
The moral of the story, the idiot got charged, and because he lacked common sense, the rules were improved in favour of public safety: Need a sign for a trap, trap to be placed in fenced area or enclosure. A few years later, further improvement (although I don't remember what triggered that; maybe just some left wing urbanites) came along - you were supposed to put the "safety" on during the daytime (meaning you have to walk up to each trap twice a day!). Useless to say, that there's nobody left to complain about the fur market any longer...

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Honestly this has got to be one of the most off the wall craziest things I've ever heard on this forum , no humans are going to be killed by any of the traps used in this province

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Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz

nonsense indeed, it's the other way around, dogs DO NOT have to be leashed, unless there's a by-law in place.

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Which is 90 percent of ontario , and the laws under the FWCA letting dogs run at large is illegal as well , very rarely is a hunting dog caught by trapper , it's pet owners that think as soon as they leave the blacktop it's okay to let their dog off the leash to run , would these people walk down dundas ,spadina or younge streets without leashing their pet ?

abra kadabra. I was waiting to hear what became of the egg?

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

city guy ;-)
next time I go hunting, I'll think of you when I carry my dog in a purse...

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Now,that's a mental image I certainly didn't need,but,whatever turns your crank... LOL

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Originally Posted by Sharon

Takes a special setter to find pheasant when leashed. Just giving you a hard time Trimmer. :)

However, whenever you let a dog off the leash to hunt , a multitude of things can go wrong ; an unexpected trap is just one of them . Just a risk you take. jmo

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That's exactly my point. This seems to always happen to some numpty city slicker and there's always copious amounts of finger-pointing to go around. Heaven forbid,they ever take responsibilty for their own stupidity.

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Originally Posted by trappermatt

Honestly this has got to be one of the most off the wall craziest things I've ever heard on this forum , no humans are going to be killed by any of the traps used in this province

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never said that it happened in this province. and the trap didn't "kill" that women, just her arm was caught in it. being an elderly lady without any understanding how the trap works, she was not able to free herself. she died of hypothermia, because the idiot chained it to a tree with a sturdy lock

the lessons learnt is the usual: one person - lacking common sense - will spoil it for the rest of us!

just don't put a setup on public land where there is a good chance that somebody or somebody's pet will get caught in. if you guys think you will continue to have the "right" to do so in the long run (regardless what happens), just wait a couple of years and this entire safety-insanity will get to the point that you won't even have the right to s^^t into the woods without a permit

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

never said that it happened in this province. and the trap didn't "kill" that women, just her arm was caught in it. being an elderly lady without any understanding how the trap works, she was not able to free herself. she died of hypothermia, because the idiot chained it to a tree with a sturdy lock

the lessons learnt is the usual: one person - lacking common sense - will spoil it for the rest of us!

just don't put a setup on public land where there is a good chance that somebody or somebody's pet will get caught in. if you guys think you will continue to have the "right" to do so in the long run (regardless what happens), just wait a couple of years and this entire safety-insanity will get to the point that you won't even have the right to s^^t into the woods without a permit

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Nearly every acre of crown land in this province is part of a registered trapline , not to mention the thousands of acres of private land trapped every year , there are more then 8000 trappers in the province , say they only set 12 traps each over 90 days of season that equates to over 8 million trap nights , and yet year after year we mange to trap with very minimal negative interaction with the general public , pets have a far greater chance of being struck by a car then caught by a trap . Now I'm not claiming trappers are perfect or that there isn't ones that don't follow the laws or one that intentionally do stupid stuff , like the rest of the world we have a percentage in our ranks that aren't legal or ethical

when you say one person , usually in these trap incidents it's the pet owner lacking common sense and like I've said it involves off leash pets , I've had to deal with some incidents in the past , involving dogs and traps and it was the same story every time , we all need to co -exist on the landscape , and trappers using baited box sets for marten fisher and coon need to get their traps up off the ground and pet owner need to respect the fact that trappers have the legal right to our heritage and livelihood

as far as safety insanity , many of us in this world have enough common sense that we don't need anymore rules and I will actively fight anymore stupid legislation

Attachment 28562Dogs need to stay on a leash!!! Page26 of the regulation summary states you cannot let your dog run at lodge during closed season for deer, moose, caribou and bears. Must be licensed and still under control if dogs used for hunting. They can run on private land, unless municipality states otherwise, but not harass game animals.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Attachment 28562Dogs need to stay on a leash!!! Page26 of the regulation summary states you cannot let your dog run at lodge during closed season for deer, moose, caribou and bears. Must be licensed and still under control if dogs used for hunting. They can run on private land, unless municipality states otherwise, but not harass game animals.

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jeez if i didnt know better id swear you werre from toronta

only read the 1st article but it never said it was a legal trap set? kinda going back to a previous thread about cabelas selling traps to any joe blow off the street... just saying...

How about under control??

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

How about under control??

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could live with that one...

not all dogs are running at large, and not all dogs are used for hunting... my lab has never bin on a hunting trip... gun shy... she barely knows what a leash looks like, but she knows not to go far from me, she will actually run ahead stop and wait for me to catch up to her, never more than 25 yards from me...

"How about under control?? " quote CL

That's it! :) Dogs should always be under control.

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Originally Posted by fishy steve

jeez if i didnt know better id swear you werre from toronta

...

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yeah, you cannot judge a guy by its residence to tell if he's a city guy by heart or not ;-)

I was a city boy till moved to Ontario. But now bush boy!!!

That would be a great place to live - Vermilion Bay.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

That would be a great place to live - Vermilion Bay.

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8 months of the year yes lol

maybe 4 forgot about blackflies lol

I sent a link to this pamphlet:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/eedf40_36fa...265f877114.pdf

to the writer of another article in the Peterborough Examiner. The writer's email address is: [email protected] should you feel like sending an opposing view.

I had picked up a copy of it @ the local gas station.

Trappermatt, your posts are quite informative in this thread, maybe you could fire off a note to the guy.

Killing "traps" are quite common on the ground in the north. I dont know the laws down there, but its a good idea for the public to obey the rules of keeping their pets on a leash. If they choose not too, and believe that they have the right to allow their pets to run wild and free, well this is the outcome. Again, I dont know if it was a legal set in that area, but there certainly isnt anything illegal about that in the North.

You are a trapper Dave are you not? How do you trap coyotes? Wolves? Lynx? Fox? I know how I do it.

We need not to point the finger at trappers here, but the general public who feel that they don't need to follow the rules while expecting us to go above and beyond in our line of work to avoid the possible scenario of a pet owner who decides to break the law and let their dogs run wild and into a trap. No trapper wants to kill a pet, thats not what Im saying. Alot of trappers have dogs.

Would a normal person let their child play on the 401 while you fished in a creek on the side of the road? Probably not. But they shouldn't blame the drivers if their child were to get hit. There is a danger on the roads towards people and children, just like there is danger in the fall/winter in the bush towards various pets.

Thats my opinion.

Bro & I tagged along w/ the father of 2 of our friends back in the 70s & 80s. His trap line was in the area that is now in the eastern part of KHPP (west of Hwy 28). I'm pretty sure the regs here are the same as anywhere else on the Crown.

I had heard about the beagle getting caught in the trap near Stirling last year as well. The owner was walking on the old railbed when the beagle got caught in a trap set legally on private property. At the time the owner felt no ill will towards the trapper. The trapper removed the trap. I didn't know reading the links that a petition had been started in that case.

Parents caught hell from the CO back in the 60s when our beagle got away from their cottage & apparently was chasing deer. This was during the summer. So the loose dog reg has been around for quite awhile.

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Originally Posted by trappermatt

Which is 90 percent of ontario , and the laws under the FWCA letting dogs run at large is illegal as well , very rarely is a hunting dog caught by trapper , it's pet owners that think as soon as they leave the blacktop it's okay to let their dog off the leash to run , would these people walk down dundas ,spadina or younge streets without leashing their pet ?

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Would you set a trap 20' from a well use trail by dog walker? The two trappers that I know would not so I'm pretty sure most of them. Maybe they could but it's probably not worth it.
Where I live, not in the city, dogs don't need to be on a leash but they need to be under control and no more than 30 yards away. Mine is never on a leash, even downtown. If it happen to be caught in crown land I wouldn't complain about it but if it happen on a Trans Canada trails it would be a different story.

Other than OFSC snowmobile trails, the TCT is not in the Buckhorn area. I'm back and forth on Hwy 36 a few times a year & other than where the sled trails cross the highway, there are no "maintained" trailheads.

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Originally Posted by Bigboss

Killing "traps" are quite common on the ground in the north. I dont know the laws down there, but its a good idea for the public to obey the rules of keeping their pets on a leash. If they choose not too, and believe that they have the right to allow their pets to run wild and free, well this is the outcome. Again, I dont know if it was a legal set in that area, but there certainly isnt anything illegal about that in the North.

You are a trapper Dave are you not? How do you trap coyotes? Wolves? Lynx? Fox? I know how I do it.

We need not to point the finger at trappers here, but the general public who feel that they don't need to follow the rules while expecting us to go above and beyond in our line of work to avoid the possible scenario of a pet owner who decides to break the law and let their dogs run wild and into a trap. No trapper wants to kill a pet, thats not what Im saying. Alot of trappers have dogs.

Would a normal person let their child play on the 401 while you fished in a creek on the side of the road? Probably not. But they shouldn't blame the drivers if their child were to get hit. There is a danger on the roads towards people and children, just like there is danger in the fall/winter in the bush towards various pets.

Thats my opinion.

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Boss:
I'm not sure where your home is, but I'm assuming it's north of me, and you're trapping crown land. A totally different situation if you're working remote areas, away off the beaten trail of other users who are recreating on that same piece of land you're using. Regardless of what "rights" us trappers think we have under the regulations, 'we're now living in a different world where we are under constant scrutiny. Any bad PR is devastating to us as a group. Right now a petition with more than 45,000 signatures has been sent to the Minister, asking for regulation changes. Baited conibear (body gripper) sets are causing the problems, as I, as a trapper with over 30 years of experience, must agree that there is no reason to put these on the ground when there is even a remote chance that you're going to get a non-target catch. Not sure why you'd want to anyways, as you're only ensuring that your catch will probably get mouse-chewed, predated, and abdominal belly-tainted from lying on the ground. It takes a few minutes more to make an elevated set, with your cubby off the ground and out of reach for people's dogs.
Re: coyotes and fox - no wolves in the area I trap. Regs don't allow land snaring in the majority of the area I trap, so it's either dirt holes or foot snares. Tough for me to do much, as I'd need dedicated time off work to humanely run a line. I do some snaring off bait piles, but I make sure it's completely away from any areas that see general public use.
I've never seen any provincial law that says you've got to keep your pet on a leash. The FWCA refers to dogs "at large", and I'm sure this is in reference to a free-running, unattended dog. It's also specific in relation to being applicable to presence of the dog during big game seasons. We (us trappers and me included), as a group, need to understand, and accept, the fact that there are lots of people entitled to recreate on that same piece of land we are working. I think the cottager who's up from the city on the weekend should be able to take their dog for a walk down the forestry access road, and not have to worry about their attended dog getting killed in a poorly-set trap that's 20yds off the trail. The guy with a small game licence should be able to run his beagle on hare on that same road, without having to worry about his hound find a baited 220 cubby on the ground. Diligence is up to the trapper in my opinion. How hard is it to get that set up onto a running pole? You need to make every set based on the assumption that someone's dog will find that set. If you simply do that, then there's no problems. IMO, we better start adopting this attitude, or our industry will be gone from southern and central Ontario, in under 10 years from now.

I've trapped in diferent areas of the province and yes way up north . My marten ,fisher,coon sets are ALWAYS up . I do alot of snaring too and since I don't set ram power snares even if a dog happened to be caught he is easily removed alive without harm . Dog just sits and whines . Wild canines fight so locks snub them tight tight tight . Over 4O yrs of trapping I have never killed a dog although I have caught the farmers pooch that I set for yote or wolf problems . Dog went home no worse for wear . Even me being accustomed to handling conibears I 'm not sure I could get an 80lb lab out in time by myself. Best to just not set at times .

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Boss:
I'm not sure where your home is, but I'm assuming it's north of me, and you're trapping crown land. A totally different situation if you're working remote areas, away off the beaten trail of other users who are recreating on that same piece of land you're using. Regardless of what "rights" us trappers think we have under the regulations, 'we're now living in a different world where we are under constant scrutiny. Any bad PR is devastating to us as a group. Right now a petition with more than 45,000 signatures has been sent to the Minister, asking for regulation changes. Baited conibear (body gripper) sets are causing the problems, as I, as a trapper with over 30 years of experience, must agree that there is no reason to put these on the ground when there is even a remote chance that you're going to get a non-target catch. Not sure why you'd want to anyways, as you're only ensuring that your catch will probably get mouse-chewed, predated, and abdominal belly-tainted from lying on the ground. It takes a few minutes more to make an elevated set, with your cubby off the ground and out of reach for people's dogs.
Re: coyotes and fox - no wolves in the area I trap. Regs don't allow land snaring in the majority of the area I trap, so it's either dirt holes or foot snares. Tough for me to do much, as I'd need dedicated time off work to humanely run a line. I do some snaring off bait piles, but I make sure it's completely away from any areas that see general public use.
I've never seen any provincial law that says you've got to keep your pet on a leash. The FWCA refers to dogs "at large", and I'm sure this is in reference to a free-running, unattended dog. It's also specific in relation to being applicable to presence of the dog during big game seasons. We (us trappers and me included), as a group, need to understand, and accept, the fact that there are lots of people entitled to recreate on that same piece of land we are working. I think the cottager who's up from the city on the weekend should be able to take their dog for a walk down the forestry access road, and not have to worry about their attended dog getting killed in a poorly-set trap that's 20yds off the trail. The guy with a small game licence should be able to run his beagle on hare on that same road, without having to worry about his hound find a baited 220 cubby on the ground. Diligence is up to the trapper in my opinion. How hard is it to get that set up onto a running pole? You need to make every set based on the assumption that someone's dog will find that set. If you simply do that, then there's no problems. IMO, we better start adopting this attitude, or our industry will be gone from southern and central Ontario, in under 10 years from now.

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Excellent post!

I agree, that is the best post on the subject so far, by far. Thanks fenlon, for a voice of reason.

My biggest problem with all these hypotheticals is I don't even know if a licensed trapper was the one that set these traps , the upward trend in fur prices we seen for a couple of years created lots of interest in trapping and I know of instructors that currently have 2 year waiting lists and I also know that traps are frequently set by unlicensed people , any trapper that goes through the course is taught about dog proofing killing trap sets , One of the biggest issues I have ever been involved with relating to this was a trap set illegally by an unlicensed person , the trap was first of all was too large to be set on land here in southern ontario and was set in a poor location , trappers were caused a lot of grief over this and it wasn't even a trapper who caught and killed this dog

True enough Matt .

I never did read what size of trap it was. I'm assuming a 220, set for coon or fisher. No marten, or assigned quota in that area. If the person was unlicenced, they'd have no way of selling that fisher pelt without a trap licence. Matt's got a good point. A very good chance it was any joe-blow. Sad part is that all the public will see is a trapper did the deed.

thats what i said earlier... with a place like cabelas selling traps to the public stuff like this is gonna become more common...

In one of the local reports the police chief said it was a licensed trapper, not sure if he was quoted right or not though. One thing about the trail is it gets away from houses and buildings pretty fast leaving town.

Trappermatt this does seem to be whats happening.

Had the unfortunate experience a few weeks back, traps set illegally on private property, which was literally posted no trespassing 50 feet from a few of the traps. Fortunately though the traps were located prior to any incidences.

Crown land is one thing private property is completely different. And Yes the MNR was contacted.

Down here it is unlawful to set a conibear trap on land - you can set them in the water but not on land - I see a good reason for this - a guy may be hunting with a dog and has as much right as the trapper to use crown land - the dog can get caught in one of those traps - I can't squeeze the spring by hand to open these traps - you have to have a tool to open it or step on the springs which is nearly impossible to do with a dog's head in the trap - if a guy is trapping coon he should use a dog proof trap which are available and work very good - there needs to be a law from using these traps on public land -

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Originally Posted by JoePa

Down here it is unlawful to set a conibear trap on land - you can set them in the water but not on land - I see a good reason for this - a guy may be hunting with a dog and has as much right as the trapper to use crown land - the dog can get caught in one of those traps - I can't squeeze the spring by hand to open these traps - you have to have a tool to open it or step on the springs which is nearly impossible to do with a dog's head in the trap - if a guy is trapping coon he should use a dog proof trap which are available and work very good - there needs to be a law from using these traps on public land -

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Fair enough. This was on private land.