Supreme Court rules Quebec's long gun registry data can be destroyed

The federal government has the right to destroy data collected on long-gun owners in Quebec, the Supreme Court has ruled.

In a split 5-4 decision, the top court found the government’s law requiring the destruction of gun certificate information is lawful under the Constitution, and the province of Quebec has no right to the data.

The decision marks a victory for the Conservative government on a key hot-button issue on which it has campaigned for years.


The judges went out of their way to say it was not ruling on the policy merits of a long-gun registry or its destruction, only on the legality of the government’s latest law.

The majority wrote, “to some Parliament’s choice to destroy this data will undermine public safety and waste enormous amounts of public money” but “to others it will seem to be the dismantling of an ill-advised regime and the overdue restoration of the privacy rights of law-abiding gun owners. But these competing views about the merits of Parliament’s policy choice are not at issue here.”
Quebec had argued the database was a joint effort by both federal and provincial authorities, and therefore Quebec had the right to the information in the spirit “cooperative federalism,” a legal concept that ensures flexibility in the separation of powers.

But the majority opinion written by Justices Thomas Cromwell and Andromache Karakatsanis found that principle was not applicable, and the constitutional division of powers authorizes Ottawa to take unilateral action in matters of criminal law.


Three Quebec justices dissented

In a dissenting opinion, Justices Louis LeBel, Richard Wagner, and Clement Gascon wrote that the federal decision to destroy the data was intended to harm the other level of government, namely the province of Quebec.

The ruling applies to the certificate system for long-gun owners in Quebec, which was created by the then-Liberal government in 1998. The Quebec records comprise certificate information for some 500,000 gun owners in that province. All other certificate data on gun owners in the other provinces and territories was destroyed when the Conservative government dismantled the registry three years ago.

​The provinces still control information on gun licences.

Quebec won its case to obtain the data in Quebec Superior Court in 2012, but that decision was overturned by the Quebec Court of Appeal in 2013.

Today’s ruling is expected to anger gun-control advocates and please rural long-gun owners.

The long-gun registry was created partly in response to the mass shootings of female engineering students at Montreal’s École Polytechnique in 1989.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supr...oyed-1.3011843

Interesting timing of this ruling in an election year? Agenda driven????

It'll be interesting to see if Quebec decides to go ahead and built (from scratch) their own registry.....

The CBC has reported that the Quebec justice minister has said Quebec will set up their own registry.

Wendy C' was on yammering, no tears though.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Interesting timing of this ruling in an election year? Agenda driven????

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This was forced into a supreme court decision by Quebec's appeal....I don't think the timing has to do with election politics per see. Doesn't hurt Harper to win this mind you.

Given the ruling against Alberta where they couldn't "opt out" of the Chretien governments registry because it was the sole domain of the feds,I doubt Quebec will be allowed to start their own,unless,of course,they use the "notwithstanding" clause in the Charter which could cause a constitutional crisis. I think they'll huff and puiff,as usual,but,essentially,they're screwed and the rest of the BS will be strictly face-saving.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Given the ruling against Alberta where they couldn't "opt out" of the Chretien governments registry because it was the sole domain of the feds,I doubt Quebec will be allowed to start their own....

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There is no legal impediment to Quebec starting its own.

Alberta never asked to opt out. Alberta challenged the constitutionality of the Firearms Act, arguing that regulating private property is the domain of the provinces. The Supreme Court disagreed, noting that the Firearms Act provides a regulatory underpinning to certain sections of the Criminal Code and that criminal law is the domain of the federal government.

People continually misinterpret that ruling, saying that guns are an exclusive federal jurisdiction, etc. The court never said that. All it said was that the federal government had not exceeded its powers when it passed the Firearms Act. And the court also specifically said that its ruling had no bearing on whether the provinces had the power to register firearms.

Quebec has the power to require that firearms be registered, because it has the power to regulate private property -- just as Quebec has the power to require that motor vehicles be registered.

What Quebec can't do is provide criminal penalties for non-compliance. The other thing they probably can't do is pay for a registry, which is the real reason this will amount to little more than huffing and puffing.

In your opinion would Quebec have the right to prevent other Canadians from passing throught there province with firearms that are not registered with them.

For example if you were hunting in Quebec and obvisously your gun isn't registered could the Officer confiscate your gun purposely ruin your hunt claiming he had to investigate whether or not you can be in their province or something along those lines?

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Originally Posted by welsh

There is no legal impediment to Quebec starting its own.

Alberta never asked to opt out. Alberta challenged the constitutionality of the Firearms Act, arguing that regulating private property is the domain of the provinces. The Supreme Court disagreed, noting that the Firearms Act provides a regulatory underpinning to certain sections of the Criminal Code and that criminal law is the domain of the federal government.

People continually misinterpret that ruling, saying that guns are an exclusive federal jurisdiction, etc. The court never said that. All it said was that the federal government had not exceeded its powers when it passed the Firearms Act. And the court also specifically said that its ruling had no bearing on whether the provinces had the power to register firearms.

Quebec has the power to require that firearms be registered, because it has the power to regulate private property -- just as Quebec has the power to require that motor vehicles be registered.

What Quebec can't do is provide criminal penalties for non-compliance. The other thing they probably can't do is pay for a registry, which is the real reason this will amount to little more than huffing and puffing.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

In your opinion would Quebec have the right to prevent other Canadians from passing throught there province with firearms that are not registered with them.

For example if you were hunting in Quebec and obvisously your gun isn't registered could the Officer confiscate your gun purposely ruin your hunt claiming he had to investigate whether or not you can be in their province or something along those lines?

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That would have enormously negative effects on Outfitters and Tourism. Can't see them being that stupid. Reality is this new government is new and has a strong majority and don't need to pander to any special interests just quite yet. They have other places to spend the money.

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Originally Posted by revrnd

The CBC has reported that the Quebec justice minister has said Quebec will set up their own registry.

Wendy C' was on yammering, no tears though.

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I wouldn't be surprised if we hear all kinds of liberal "spin" and misinformation from the CBC. They beat the drum for the Liberal's gun control agenda from the get-go,louder than anybody.

Looks like they are going to go for it.....

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Thériault said early estimates put the cost of creating a Quebec long gun registry at $30 million.

The Harper government passed legislation to end the federal long gun registry and destroyed most of its data in 2012. But the Quebec government argued it had a constitutional right to its records, so that province's data was protected until the issue was resolved in the courts. (Sean Kilpatrick/Canadian Press)

She reminded reporters that all Quebec MNAs unanimously voiced their dissent after the federal government announced it would destroy its long gun registry in 2012.

The desire for greater gun control is something that unites all Quebecers, Thériault continued, while noting 95 per cent of guns in Quebec are long guns and that the registry is consulted in Quebec 900 times a day by police officers and officers of the court.

Yves Francoeur, the head of the Montreal Police Brotherhood, said on Friday that he was disappointed by the Supreme Court’s ruling and called the registry "an essential tool for police officers."


"We need a Quebec long gun registry," he said in a statement. "The destruction of the data by the Conservative government is the equivalent of punishing Quebec taxpayers for ideological reasons."

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Harper's press conference release (video) is included in the article below


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/queb...ling-1.3011843

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

In your opinion would Quebec have the right to prevent other Canadians from passing throught there province with firearms that are not registered with them.

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Dunno, but probably they could create a requirement that you can't possess an unregistered gun, & require you to register it with them.

But what Terry said.

In any case, all the promises to create a new registry may amount to nothing more than hot air in the end. Make noise about how mad you are, and then move on to other things ... politics as usual.

I agree,welsh. The final turd has been flushed down the toilet. I can't see Quebec trying to stuff it back in.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Harper's press conference release (video) is included in the article below

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Very, very interesting. Lets destroy them all!

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Originally Posted by PM Harper

"We have registration of all gun owners already. We have registration of all hand guns already. We have registration of all restricted weapons already... We simply don't need another very expensive and not effective registry," he said.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I wouldn't be surprised if we hear all kinds of liberal "spin" and misinformation from the CBC. They beat the drum for the Liberal's gun control agenda from the get-go,louder than anybody.

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You can say that again. I'm surprised the CBC hasn't tried to characterize the Winchester Model 94 as a dangerous gun in the hands of thousands of hunters since the shooting in Ottawa last Oct'.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1908000/an...-gun-registry/

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One difference between Canada and the United States is the contrast in attitudes to gun ownership and firearms themselves. One thing that stands out in the graph below is that there are fewer firearms in Canada compared to the United States, proportionate to population, but also far fewer privately owned handguns in proportion to long guns.
If Canada had American rates of private handgun ownership, we would have over 12 million handguns, instead of the 700,000 that we actually have.

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Does that comment have any relevance to the discussion? Maybe the fact that the rules in effect since 1934 have had an effect on Canadians' desire/need to own handguns.

I like the graphic for "semi-automatic rifles" (a scary black AR15). I guess they couldn't find 1 for a Remington 7400.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

It'll be interesting to see if Quebec decides to go ahead and built (from scratch) their own registry.....

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Of course they will, they can get ever penny they need from federal transfers. They can also write it the way they want....can you think of any little PIA things they could put in it?
How about any firearm entering or leaving quebec must go thru an import/export process. The Canadian Firearms safety course would not meet the minumim standard for training, and Federal Storage laws would also not be good enough. Owners would be limited to the number of firearms they may own at one time.
A firearms would be reclassified, and must ammo made illegal and labeled as "cop killer" or something like that.

Well if they go that route it will pretty well kill the outfitting business.

If Quebec was REALLY serious creating a registry, NEW legislation could have been introduced this morning in parliament. They've only had years to prepare for this moment and could have waved (a couple of pieces of paper) around during all the press conferences today. But they didn't. Considering all the anti-austerity (they're cutting spending in yesterdays budget) student riots going on in Quebec, lets see them come up with the money.

It could very well kill gun ownership in Quebec. They could very well try to ban specific firearms in their Province and circumvent the government.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Well if they go that route it will pretty well kill the outfitting business.

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Originally Posted by revrnd

You can say that again. I'm surprised the CBC hasn't tried to characterize the Winchester Model 94 as a dangerous gun in the hands of thousands of hunters since the shooting in Ottawa last Oct'.

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Pardon an old guy's memory but didn't RCMP Commissioner Paulson make a statement on TV something about the M 94 being a weird or different type of rifle?

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Originally Posted by GoldenLakePete

Pardon an old guy's memory but didn't RCMP Commissioner Paulson make a statement on TV something about the M 94 being a weird or different type of rifle?

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Yes,he did,until someone behind whispered over his shoulder and quickly clued him in. He made a very hasty backpedal. It was kind of funny,really.LOL

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Originally Posted by revrnd

Maybe the fact that the rules in effect since 1934 have had an effect on Canadians' desire/need to own handguns.

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Canadians have always tended to view handguns differently from long guns.

Canada took steps to regulate handguns beginning in the 1870s. The registry introduced in 1934 had broad public support. The tendency up until 1989 was to view long guns as relatively benign but handguns as something that needed to be regulated.

So no, the government has not engineered Canadian attitudes towards handguns. On the contrary: Canadian attitudes towards handguns have created the laws we now have.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Of course they will, they can get ever penny they need from federal transfers. They can also write it the way they want....can you think of any little PIA things they could put in it?
How about any firearm entering or leaving quebec must go thru an import/export process. The Canadian Firearms safety course would not meet the minumim standard for training, and Federal Storage laws would also not be good enough. Owners would be limited to the number of firearms they may own at one time.
A firearms would be reclassified, and must ammo made illegal and labeled as "cop killer" or something like that.

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Catastrophize much? None of those things are likely to happen. Most of these fall outside of provincial powers, so these measures would be unconstitutional. For example, Quebec has no power to impose any import requirements on firearms, because interprovincial trade is a federal government power.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Canadians have always tended to view handguns differently from long guns.

Canada took steps to regulate handguns beginning in the 1870s. The registry introduced in 1934 had broad public support. The tendency up until 1989 was to view long guns as relatively benign but handguns as something that needed to be regulated.

So no, the government has not engineered Canadian attitudes towards handguns. On the contrary: Canadian attitudes towards handguns have created the laws we now have.



Catastrophize much? None of those things are likely to happen. Most of these fall outside of provincial powers, so these measures would be unconstitutional. For example, Quebec has no power to impose any import requirements on firearms, because interprovincial trade is a federal government power.

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Under a firearms registry they could require any firearm entering or leaving the the province to be documented and it's transfer be approved. The firearm is registried as soon as it comes in for sale. A firearm that enters or leaves the province must be done through a transfer from a licensed dealer within the province and one outside of the province...

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Under a firearms registry they could require any firearm entering or leaving the the province to be documented and it's transfer be approved.

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They can require it to be registered, but that's not an import/export process. They can't impose any import control, or deny the registration of a firearm from outside the province on any grounds except those that might apply inside the province. It is difficult to see on what grounds they could refuse the registration of any firearm, whether it came from inside or outside Quebec.

A province can require that guns be registered as property, because provincial powers include property rights. But given that the federal government has existing laws concerning the transfer of firearms, it is hard to see how Quebec could impose any additional rule denying registration of a firearm to any licensed owner. In short, they can count them but there is very little they can do to actually control them.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

A firearm that enters or leaves the province must be done through a transfer from a licensed dealer within the province and one outside of the province...

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Nope. Unconstitutional.

I think you've pretty much nailed it,welsh. For all these reasons,that's why I think a provincial registry,in the cold hard light of day,won't happen. There simply is no way the Quebec government (or any other provincial government,for that matter) could enforce it outside their province. Even if they came up with some stupid system where hunters needed to register their guns before they could buy a hunting license,that alone would cause a complete collapse of their hunting tourism industry. The Quebec government may have done a lot of dumb things,but,deliberately killing an entire industry isn't one of them.

Funny thing... that whenever people bring up something that happened in Alberta , 'some' ,people on this site say things like ....'this is an ODD site we don't talk about what goes on in other provinces'... but this thread is all about Quebec, what's the diff.:silly: If that is the case, don't shoot down someone that talks about another province's ( Alberta), business because, Quebec is another province , ' this is an OOD site and it has nothing to do with us'.:p You can't pick and choose, if some people want to talk about Alberta and some say no way ,than why should others be able to talk about Quebec, what is good for the goose, is good for the gander etc.

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Originally Posted by welsh

They can require it to be registered, but that's not an import/export process. They can't impose any import control, or deny the registration of a firearm from outside the province on any grounds except those that might apply inside the province. It is difficult to see on what grounds they could refuse the registration of any firearm, whether it came from inside or outside Quebec.

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If one may not register a Semi, Pump, or any Restricted ( R-PAL) firearm then they can deny any of them coming in to or possible passing through the province.

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Originally Posted by welsh

http://www.oodmag.com/community/imag...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Snowwalker http://www.oodmag.com/community/imag...post-right.png
A firearm that enters or leaves the province must be done through a transfer from a licensed dealer within the province and one outside of the province...


Nope. Unconstitutional.

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Please explain.

Since any person OUTSIDE of Quebec could not be made to register the firearm, the sale could be classed as an Illegal sale.
Like one of us selling a rifle or shotgun to a person that does not have a firearms license.

So when the firearm comes into Quebec it has to go through the dealer to be put into the system, and when it leave it has to be removed from the system. Since the other provinces would not restrict the sale of a firearm to a licensed person, Quebec would want to prevent a person from buying a firearm is another province and bringing it home.

I would bet you dollars to donuts that selling it to someone and sending it out of Quebec would be easier then buying one and have it brought in.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

If one may not register a Semi, Pump, or any Restricted ( R-PAL) firearm then they can deny any of them coming in to or possible passing through the province.

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You're just making stuff up.

First of all, they can't prevent any firearm from passing through the province. Interprovincial trade is the exclusive territory of the federal government, and no province can impede the flow of any goods across its borders. And they almost certainly can't deny the registration of any firearm that is legitimately owned under a federal licence -- that would touch off a constitutional challenge over whose law took precedence, and the Firearms Act almost certainly would be deemed to take precedence over any provincial property regulation, because it is related to the Criminal Code. The constitution limits provincial powers, and Quebec can't simply pass any old law it wants to pass. It can only do the things that lie within its powers.

Don't try to bring up the notwithstanding clause. That applies to the Charter, not to the constitutional powers of the provinces.

All Quebec could do would be to demand you register any firearm in your possession while in the province. They are unlikely to do that, for the simple reasons a lot of people have already pointed out: they have an outfitting industry. Canada did not require US visitors to register their guns, and Quebec is very unlikely to require non-resident hunters to register their guns. That would be just dumb.

You are determined to imagine the worst here.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Please explain.

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I'm going to type this as slowly as I can, in hopes that you will finally get it:

THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THE PROVINCES CAN'T PASS LAWS RESTRICTING INTERPROVINCIAL TRADE.

Quebec can't ban sales of guns to Quebec residents by any person outside the province, or vice versa. All they can do is require that guns inside the province be registered.

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Originally Posted by welsh

You're just making stuff up.

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Of course it's made up....But you can bet the Quebec Government is playing "WHAT IF" a lot more then the two of us are.

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Originally Posted by welsh

I'm going to type this as slowly as I can, in hopes that you will finally get it:

THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THE PROVINCES CAN'T PASS LAWS RESTRICTING INTERPROVINCIAL TRADE.

Quebec can't ban sales of guns to Quebec residents by any person outside the province, or vice versa. All they can do is require that guns inside the province be registered.

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It is Provincial powers to control Personal property OUTSIDE of the criminal code. Just as Ontario can control if a Side by Side can be driven on a highway, Quebec can control what type of personal property to can register for legal use.

If a gun shop can not sell a Semi, pump, or an RPAL firearm because no one can register it, then they have banned them from the province through the backdoor.

Also how many times of we seen Quebec do things things that they where not allowed to do but it takes years to sort out. I have a legal right to use one of the TWO official languages of Canada to conduct my day to day affairs, but any legal document and court in Quebec is in French.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

If a gun shop can not sell a Semi, pump, or an RPAL firearm because no one can register it, then they have banned them from the province through the backdoor.

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Refer to my post #30, second paragraph.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Refer to my post #30, second paragraph.

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The one containing the idea of "a constitutional challenge "?

That is business as usually for Quebec.

Be serious.

If Quebec thought they could ban the private ownership of any particular type of firearm under their private-property powers, they could already have done so. There is no reason they'd have to wait to create their own registry. And they've got no reason to want to do that: they never talked about it before, so why would they now decide that they simply must waste a pile of money passing a law that will be overturned?

You're simply determined to believe that the sky is falling.

It isn't. If Quebec goes through with its stated plan to create a registry -- and there is a good chance they won't -- then all that happens is that Quebec gets an ineffective and expensive registry.

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Originally Posted by welsh

You're simply determined to believe that the sky is falling.

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No just to stringing you along.:joker:

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Originally Posted by welsh

First of all, they can't prevent any firearm from passing through the province. Interprovincial trade is the exclusive territory of the federal government, and no province can impede the flow of any goods across its borders.

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I think you may want to look at the Inter provincial trade barriers for things like wine, poultry, dairy products and eggs.

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Liquor monopolies

Provincial liquor boards restrict the listings from out-of-province products. And federal legislation to allow cross-border wine transport has not yet been fully implemented.
Food restrictions
Supply management rules and marketing boards limit interprovincial movement of poultry, dairy products and eggs. And many provinces have different rules for packaging and labelling of food products.

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good article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...1453/?page=all

Food and agriculture are a special case. Do guns grow on farms?

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Originally Posted by welsh

Interprovincial trade is the exclusive territory of the federal government, and no province can impede the flow of any goods across its borders.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Food and agriculture are a special case.

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You made a general statement..(any goods) and in fact that is not true. There still exists trade barriers between provinces.

Anyway...it's a moot point unless Quebec starts to manufacture their own guns and registers them only in Quebec and restricts their exportation....Hey wait a minute...that's a brilliant idea, create an industry, new jobs.etc etc..!!! ...LOL...

ohh and those would be called factories not farms :)

Congratulations on scoring a point, but what I'm saying is still correct.

Provinces control food and agriculture and this allows them to erect limited barriers to trade. That does not extend to guns or other manufactured goods, including any firearms made in Quebec.

That doesn't really matter, Quebec has a habit of going against the grain. They could still attempt to ban certain firearms and create their own laws essentially that is what they are doing now by attempting to create a new registry.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Food and agriculture are a special case. Do guns grow on farms?

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Quebec can't get around the British North America Act, which regardless of their refusal to ratify the 1982 constitution, has applied to them since 1867. And Quebec recognizes that fact, and indeed continually relies on it when they want the feds to butt out of provincial affairs.

Why are you all so determined to believe that the sky is falling?

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

That doesn't really matter, Quebec has a habit of going against the grain. They could still attempt to ban certain firearms and create their own laws essentially that is what they are doing now by attempting to create a new registry.

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The political elites in Quebec sure seem to have a hate on for firearms since the Dec' 6 massacre. I wonder what the reaction would have been had the massacre happened in another province?

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Originally Posted by GoldenLakePete

Pardon an old guy's memory but didn't RCMP Commissioner Paulson make a statement on TV something about the M 94 being a weird or different type of rifle?

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Yes,he did,until someone behind whispered over his shoulder and quickly clued him in. He made a very hasty backpedal. It was kind of funny,really.LOL

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Unbelievable! You'd almost think a lever action rifle was obscure, rare gun.

From Wikipedia:

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Paulson was born in Lachute, Quebec. He joined the Canadian Forces after high school ^[2] and served in the ranks for six years. ^[3]Leaving the Forces in 1984, he spent two years at Simon Fraser University and then joined the RCMP as a cadet in 1986.^[4]
Paulson's first posting was to Chilliwack Detachment. He spent the next 19 years in various RCMP postings in British Columbia before being transferred to National Headquarters in Ottawa.^[5]

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Nineteen years in the field & he never saw one? Kind of like what is said about people who profess to not making mistakes, they obviously don't do much in the 1st place.