Labradoodles

Wow, $2500 for a pup from a 'designer' Dog.

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While Labradoodles aren't members of the Canadian Kennel Club, there is an association of breeders called the Australian Labradoodle Association of America that maintains a database of more than 20,000 dogs and sets health testing standards.

Member Gail Groeneveld has bred Labradoodles for 10 years near High River, Alta. After her beloved Labrador retriever died, she did some research and was drawn to the idea of a low-shedding, family friendly dog. While many breeders charge $2,500 for a pup, Groeneveld recently upped her price to $2,750 for a fixed puppy, which includes GST. Her puppies are fourth-generation Labradoodles.

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https://ca.news.yahoo.com/labradoodl...090000560.html

As PT Barnum said there's one born every minute.

It's amazing what people will pay for mutts with catchy names. Mind you a lot of todays purebreds were "blends" at some point in their history.

I just picked up an 18 month old golden doodle. Dirt cheap compared to most dogs out there, mind you we searched for well over a year and refused to pay over $300 for a dog. Awesome dog and has fit right into the family.

Pick him up as a family pet or hunting companion?

Let get this straight! Somebody actually breeds their register Lab to a registered poodle and places a fancy name on it of Labordoodle and sell for $2500.00. I believe it is more of a mutt that looks like a lab, and mutt that looks like a poodle being bred. Then asking $2500 which is more than they would likely pay for a registered lab or a registered poodle is amazing. A mutt is a mutt, maybe loveable and great family dog , but fools can be parted with their money easily. To me its a "Heinz" part lab and part poodle.


Dick

Fourth generation mutts are still fourth generation mutts. Hard to believe that someone would part with $2750 to buy one! Guess we're all different..........

No legitimate or responsible breeder would cross their registered Labrador to a poodle or vise versa. I had a vet that bred goldens and she was saying how wonderful the doodles were. My question to her was are you going to cross your golden that you have worked so hard to get the right dog with a poodle. She was very quick to change her mind just as I was to change vets.

It's caveat emptor in the world of doodles....

One of my neighbours has an alleged labradoodle they bought because hubby demanded a non-shedding dog. They ended up with a dog that sheds like crazy. No guarantees.

A fourth generation mutt is even muttier than a first generation mutt, if you remember your Mendelian genetics from high school biology. It's when you get a few generations down the line that the recessive genes get a chance to express themselves.

Two friends of mine each purchased goldendoodles and each paid $1,500 close to eight years ago. Boy do they regret the purchase and have had many issues since. Aggression issues with the one and the other severe anxiety with constant urination to go with it.Vet bills with all the health issues and private in house training lessons with a certified trainer. I can't imagine how much money they have spent in total on top of the purchase price.

It's the new thing for yuppies. Cross 2 mutts and hyphenate the name and the nitwits will throw money at you. Amazing. No reputable breeder would allow their dogs to be used in these cashgrabs so you pay your money and hopefully you don't end up with frankenstein's dog. My daughter's coach has a Labradoodle. The thing is allergic to damn near the entire world around it.

And that is why a reputable doesn't like to give breeding rights to just anyone. I would think most of the breeding dogs used are unregistered . Most of the reputable breeders i know do not give breeding rights.

Cross breeding wouldn't reflect at all on the genetic soundness of a dog if it was in fact a registered purebred dog. I doubt any of these dogs are papered.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Cross breeding wouldn't reflect at all on the genetic soundness of a dog if it was in fact a registered purebred dog. I doubt any of these dogs are papered.

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Sorry Terry I meant to say purebred registered dogs used in the x are probably not from a reputable breeder. More than likely acquired unregistered.

I think it's just further evidence that there is a growing segment of dog owners don't care about their dogs being be a 'pure' breed and less worried that it's not registered.

I goes hand in hand with the continued decline in membership and registration with the AKC. It's also evident with the continuing problems the AKC is having to fill breed categories at the sanctioned dog shows etc. This growing demand for cross breed designer dogs seems to have taken a hold and is growing.

The article above just proves that if people have a preference, they are willing to pay for it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, nice to see the choice is there to get a dog you want.

The old caveat 'let the buyer beware' is still applicable in both cases, because there are still risks that your pure breed dog will encounter health issues, being registered is no guarantee either...you just usually know up front the problems you can anticipate having when you buy it.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Cross breeding wouldn't reflect at all on the genetic soundness of a dog if it was in fact a registered purebred dog. I doubt any of these dogs are papered.

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I the case of the Labradoodles they are registered with the Australian Labradoodle Association (ALA)...who are in the process of getting this dog registered as a pure breed.

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The vision of the ALA is to protect
and nurture the Australian Labradoodle throughout Australia and the world for successive generations.

To work with the Australian
National Kennel Club (ANKC) towards the goal of the full recognition of the labradoodle as a pure breed.

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http://www.laa.org.au/

You can register with the Continental Kennel Club as well with newly developed breeds or breeds that the Canadian Kennel Club do not recognize..

The problem with labradoodles is that anyone who breeds a lab to a poodle can claim to have bred a labradoodle. And that isn't the dog the Australian breed club is going to get recognized. Recognition is going to come for labradoodles bred to labradoodles for generations, until they breed true to type. You don't have a breed until it breeds true to type ... that's really the definition of "breed."

How many of the people selling labradoodles are breeding labradoodle to labradoodle, generation after generation?

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Originally Posted by welsh

Recognition is going to come for labradoodles bred to labradoodles for generations, until they breed true to type. You don't have a breed until it breeds true to type ... that's really the definition of "breed."

How many of the people selling labradoodles are breeding labradoodle to labradoodle, generation after generation?

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As stated in the article, her labradoodles are 4th generation and come from the original Australian bloodlines...

more about her:

http://www.prairiedoodles.ca/about_prairie_doddles.php

Here damn from

http://manorlakelabradoodles.com/


her stud from

http://www.labradoodle.biz/

So these $2500 pups have some lineage too them....

If a labradodle cost so much is because people like them, no science here. And if people like them is because they are all around good dogs. Personnaly, I don't like them but I know a few people that own one and they have absolutely no issue. Most of them are he same way or not too many people would own one.
I see more health or care issue with pure breed than mutt, I think mutts are more robust.

Absolutely nothing from what I can see on the manorlakelabradoodles about health test being done such as hips, elbows, EIC,CNM etc.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Absolutely nothing from what I can see on the manorlakelabradoodles about health test being done such as hips, elbows, EIC,CNM etc.

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Along with your Manor Lake Puppy you will receive a copy of their vaccination/worming record, spay/neuter certificate, microchip number and information, Manor Lake's Puppy Packet “Your Puppy and You,” Manor Lake's FAQ's, a Manor Lake leash, Lupine collar guaranteed for life, a bag of Taste of the Wild High Prairie Canine Formula Kibble, a full veterinary health exam with a clear fecal exam as well as the above mentioned 30 days of free pet insurance through Trupanion (you must call to activate).

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I guess you will have to call them YD and ask what is included in a 'full' vet exam...

I don't think so MP the website was enough for me.lol

Yeah, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a labradoodle (or anydoodle) backyard breeder that does full health testing. Every pup on kijiji comes vet checked, which amounts to pretty much nothing.
It's difficult enough finding a purebred dog from an ethical breeder that does health testing.

And it's easy to pretty up a website with all the so called plus reasons to have a Labradoodle and leave out the most important health concerns.

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Originally Posted by last5oh_302

Yeah, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a labradoodle (or anydoodle) backyard breeder that does full health testing. Every pup on kijiji comes vet checked, which amounts to pretty much nothing.
It's difficult enough finding a purebred dog from an ethical breeder that does health testing.

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All my purebred dogs have come from ethical breeders and have not had any bad experiences.

Saying they don't do a 'full' health check without knowing the facts really weakens your argument YD...maybe do some research before you post your opinion instead of facts..

According to the ALA website, if your an accredited breeder (like Manour Lake) your health testing includes;

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When you purchase a puppy from an ALA accredited breeder you now do so knowing that comprehensive DNA testing has guided the breeder to select the parents of your puppy in the hope that he or she will lead a long and healthy life as a valued member of your family.


The expanded policy now includes screening for the following conditions:

Cystinuria
Centronuclear Myopathy
Exercise Induced Collapse
Myotubuular Myopathy X Linked
Neonatal Encephalopathy
Von willebrands disease Type I,
Degenerative Myelopathy
Autosomal Hereditary Recessive Nephropathy
Phosphofructokinase Deficiency (Glycogen Storage disease)
Progressive Renal Atrophy (PRA)

from: http://www.laa.org.au/index.php/114-test

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This doesn't bother me as much as it once did. Must be old age.

All our treasured breeds came from a mix. Some of us have a gut reaction when we think of our setter or lab being mixed now.

Below you can see how the GSP developed.

If folks want to pay big bucks that's their choice.
I had a lab friend -big in trials - now passed on - who paid close to $10 000 for his pup.


"Unlike nearly every other sporting breed the German Shorthaired Pointer wasn’t developed from the inbreeding of a single specimen. Most breeds and virtually every line of sporting dog are the result of the liberal and purposeful use of a particular specimen whopossessed the desired characteristics of the breeder. In tracing our dogs back to the very beginning of the German Stud Dog Books we noticed something very interesting. There are many places that the pedigrees would eventually end with “Sire Unknown” “Dame Unknown” and they were not the same animal not even in the same decade.Oddly, when the breed was first recognized and records of actual breedings were being kept the Kurzaar hadn’t even developed into a recognizable type. The result being that our modern Grerman Shorthair genepool comes from many different sources. The drawings and early photos of Kurzhaars clearly show this. Some of the more important dogs were:

http://www.westwindgsps.com/german_s...ed_history.htm

That's very interesting MP since it doesn't do us any good on this side of the world. Do you know of any accredited breeders in your neck of the woods ? What is the percentage of accredited breeders in Ontario? Probably 0 . Because a small number of labradoodle breeders do screening doesn't make it more legitimate on the whole or less risky for the purchaser. It would take many many years of careful breeding of genetic healthy stock to get it to an acceptable level. Unfortunately its still more of a crap shoot for puppy purchasers in Ontario because of the lack of accredited breeders. My hat goes off to any breeder that can produce specimens clear of genetic diseases that would in turn cause short debilitating lives. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

Took 6 seconds on google to find an ALA affiliated Labradoodle breeders in Ontario...there are many more;

http://www.daretodreamlabradoodles.com/aboutus.htm

It really is a waste of time debating anything with you Yellow Dog, you don't bother to read the links, you don't accept facts, you don't bother to even research facts to support your own opinions, which have been proven wrong post after post.

I don't think you even had the gumption to fall off the Trunip truck, your still sitting up there. :)

I think it's wonderful you found a breeder with clearances in Ontario kudo's to you. As I said in my previous post my hat is off to ANY BREEDER that can produce specimens clear of genetic diseases because ultimately that is the goal. Once again You didn't bother to read what i had put on this thread. Have you considered buying a Labaradoodle from an ALA affiliated breeder. :)

A buddy that I hunt with got a labradoodle because of the hair in the house back when he had a lab was a huge issue.

He said this is the best retriever he has ever had in his hunting career.

Just think back to how all of these breeds developed, someone had to start somewhere to come up with what is cherished now.

Nobody snapped their fingers and came up with a lab or a springer spaniel or a border collie.

$2500 is way more than I would ever pay for a dog, but a lot of people on here said if you don't have a 100% pedigree lab then it is not worth hunting with and they all cost a ton of money.

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Originally Posted by seabast

If a labradodle cost so much is because people like them, no science here. And if people like them is because they are all around good dogs. Personnaly, I don't like them but I know a few people that own one and they have absolutely no issue. Most of them are he same way or not too many people would own one.
I see more health or care issue with pure breed than mutt, I think mutts are more robust.

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How much lab or how much poodle is on the third generation of the "designer mutt" ?. If you breed a lab to a poodle you get a labradoodle. If you breed a labradoodle to a lab is the new dog called a labratwodoodle. To me there MUTTS and you get them at the SPCA .

I still like the cross of a Brittany to a Shorthair = a Shytanny


If my knowledge serves me correctly it is illegal to advertise or promote a dog as registered unless the breed is registered with the CKC. So if somebody is not satisfied that they can get a dog registered through government regulations they go somewhere that will allow them to start a new registry for dogs so they can say they are registered.

Dick

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Originally Posted by MikePal

As stated in the article, her labradoodles are 4th generation and come from the original Australian bloodlines...

more about her:

http://www.prairiedoodles.ca/about_prairie_doddles.php

Here damn from

http://manorlakelabradoodles.com/


her stud from

http://www.labradoodle.biz/

So these $2500 pups have some lineage too them....

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Right, but in case you didn't notice, I wasn't referring to her but to labradoodle breeders in general.

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Originally Posted by Fox

A buddy that I hunt with got a labradoodle because of the hair in the house back when he had a lab was a huge issue.

He said this is the best retriever he has ever had in his hunting career.

Just think back to how all of these breeds developed, someone had to start somewhere to come up with what is cherished now.

Nobody snapped their fingers and came up with a lab or a springer spaniel or a border collie.

$2500 is way more than I would ever pay for a dog, but a lot of people on here said if you don't have a 100% pedigree lab then it is not worth hunting with and they all cost a ton of money.

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Your absolutely right fox about how breeds were developed and i had also touched on that well over a year ago in another thread. It takes a ton of time, money, heartache, patience, optimism, research etc. to develop a breeding program. When we read about how breeds were develop many years ago we never here about the ridicule these breeders had to go through. It would be interesting to find out if some of these breeders left any written documents on this subject.

This labradoodle breeder does OFA testing. Wow, mind you I didn't look up their dogs on the OFA site (I'm sure their dogs are there though) but they're even up front about the health testing on their site, like they should be as an ethical breeder.
They're in the Yukon.
http://www.labradoodlesofthenorth.co...ealth-testing/

Greetings,
i have a 2 yr old goldendoodle that I bought from a breeder in Halton Hills. I payed 600 dollars for him and he is the greatest family dog.
Mind you I don't hunt with him and that was a factor when deciding on our breed. We wanted a loyal, well natured family pet that is good with children and a low shedding dog. I certainly didn't want a lap dog and at 95 lbs he is not. This is what the breeder advertised and thats exactly what we got. The breeder was on a nice, well kept property and their dogs were obviously treated very well. He has been a very healthy dog as well.
I had a pure bred lab growing up and loved that dog just as much and he was just as well natured and healthy. He lived to 15 yrs. I've also seen purebred labs that were not.
My point is that there is a "market" out there for these kind of dogs and some people will pay those exorbant amounts. Some people have the money for "prestige" although we all have different ideas of what prestige is.

I would be interested in knowing if anyone has ever used a Doodle for hunting? Although I don't hunt it's only because I don't have the time but I am planning on taking it up in the future.

There are always people willing to pay. I have friends with labradoodles... some nice, some not. They can make fine pets. My issue is with the amount that people sell mutts for. Go look on kijiji right now - you'll see pages and pages of crossbred dogs for 500-1000 dollars. That's a crime I think. I personally wouldn't pay for a mutt - they are generally free unless you live in the city.

Labradoodles are great dogs. Very very smart(how can they not be). They are in great demand. F1(first generation) may or may not be non shedding. Some people have labelled them as designer dogs, I would rather call them a mixed breed of two great breeds. Registered breeders will never tell you they are a good dog.

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Originally Posted by Cass

There are always people willing to pay. I have friends with labradoodles... some nice, some not. They can make fine pets. My issue is with the amount that people sell mutts for. Go look on kijiji right now - you'll see pages and pages of crossbred dogs for 500-1000 dollars. That's a crime I think. I personally wouldn't pay for a mutt - they are generally free unless you live in the city.

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It's sad what people will pay for mutts, but they will pay it. Why would someone sell a dog for $25 when there is someone willing to pay $2500? I'm sure if the dogs in the pounds were cuter, fluffier, they would sell faster. Saddly there is a stigma attached to a "pound dog", until the spca marketing gurus can convince the general public, buying a pound dog saves a life, back yard breeders will continue to fill the demand.

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

It's sad what people will pay for mutts, but they will pay it. Why would someone sell a dog for $25 when there is someone willing to pay $2500? I'm sure if the dogs in the pounds were cuter, fluffier, they would sell faster. Saddly there is a stigma attached to a "pound dog", until the spca marketing gurus can convince the general public, buying a pound dog saves a life, back yard breeders will continue to fill the demand.

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I agree. If you don't know what you are getting (or to be correct, to have the odds in your favour, because of the dog’s pedigree), you can save a lot of money and get a dog from the pound!
On those doodles, they seem to invade Toronto. I’m having really a hard time figuring out what they are. Luckily, their owners can always educate me on how many percent of what is in it…
On new breeds, there is always someone who will reinvent the wheel and people will fall for it. Best case, the new breed is redundant, but that is unfortunately the exception as most often the only purpose is to create another well selling toy. In that respect, doodles are not the worst example, but they’ll end like many fashion breeds before thanks to backyard puppy mills.

Is it better to develop a "designer breed" or take a breed in a different direction? There are many examples of hunting breeds in which it is quite hard to find a good hunting line. They are now bred for beauty contests, companion dogs, or other tasks their breeders see as important. Am I a victim of "designer doggism" because I looked at breeds other than what was popular for my hunting style? Wholly crap, I may be a dog-hippster, :( and I look so goofy in a fedora.

Friends of mine just picked up one, not sure what they paid for it, but if I had to guess, I'd say too much :) but everyone has their own preferences and tastes.

The problem with pound dogs is that you usually can't get pups, but older dogs with 'problems'. I know because, over the years I have had 5 dogs from the pound , a couple were great , but others went back, (believe me I tried), because I found out why they were there,:scream: could not be trusted around children, etc. My present dog is Oakley, a 7 years old female, Golden Retriever that I bought off Kijiji, as a 16 week old pup, unregistered , best 500 dollars I ever spent.:thumbup:

Why would anyone get a labradoodle when they can buy an Original English Goldendoodle from teddybeargoldendoodles.com
You can get small-$3050.00 medium $2550.00 standard $2550 or a twoodle for $3050.00
They will crate train your pup for $650.00 a week or you can have premium training for $9000.00 for 16 week This package includes spay and neutering.
They will even send you a T-shirt for $125.00 to test allergic sensitivity. Guess the dog wears it before you do.

I am in the wrong business.

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Originally Posted by ebenezer

Why would anyone get a labradoodle when they can buy an Original English Goldendoodle from teddybeargoldendoodles.com
You can get small-$3050.00 medium $2550.00 standard $2550 or a twoodle for $3050.00
They will crate train your pup for $650.00 a week or you can have premium training for $9000.00 for 16 week This package includes spay and neutering.
They will even send you a T-shirt for $125.00 to test allergic sensitivity. Guess the dog wears it before you do.

I am in the wrong business.

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You saw that too???? I'm in the wrong business .... Going to volunteer to start crate training puppies for people at $650 per week!!!

Geez .... What did PT Barnum say???? :-)

So many stupid people fall for this !

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Originally Posted by Final Flight

Labradoodles are great dogs. Very very smart(how can they not be).

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We have a female lab that is hands down the dumbest dog on the planet. I have seen her lose many arguments with the tree stump in my backyard. If you bred her to a poodle, no matter how smart the poodle was, I am pretty sure the stupid gene would win. That being said she is also the gentlest most loving dog on planet and is amazing with kids - great pet, but smart she is not.

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

It's sad what people will pay for mutts, but they will pay it. Why would someone sell a dog for $25 when there is someone willing to pay $2500? I'm sure if the dogs in the pounds were cuter, fluffier, they would sell faster. Saddly there is a stigma attached to a "pound dog", until the spca marketing gurus can convince the general public, buying a pound dog saves a life, back yard breeders will continue to fill the demand.

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it is sad.
Thunderbelly what did you pay for your mutt. The GWP is comprised of 4 different breeds.

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/bree...aired-pointer/

140 years ago your breed was just getting started. And guess what Poodle is one of the contributors. That's not that long ago!!!!!!
what are your thoughts on the PP. Let me guess over priced mutt right?

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

it is sad.
Thunderbelly what did you pay for your mutt. The GWP is comprised of 4 different breeds.

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/bree...aired-pointer/

140 years ago your breed was just getting started. And guess what Poodle is one of the contributors. That's not that long ago!!!!!!
what are your thoughts on the PP. Let me guess over priced mutt right?

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I don't know what you point you try to make, but if you keep reading on how the DD was created and the breed is maintained, anyone will see that it was one of the greatest success stories in modern dog breeding. Furthermore, the difference between the DD breeding and what is going on with doodles is vast to say the least. What is the purpose of a doodle, and how do you measure it's performance? Until this is crystal clear, all that breeding is useless even for a family pet

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

I don't know what you point you try to make, but if you keep reading on how the DD was created and the breed is maintained, anyone will see that it was one of the greatest success stories in modern dog breeding. Furthermore, the difference between the DD breeding and what is going on with doodles is vast to say the least. What is the purpose of a doodle, and how do you measure it's performance? Until this is crystal clear, all that breeding is useless even for a family pet

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My point is it took almost 100 years of breeding to get "the greatest success stories in modern breeding " and hence the word MODERN. before you start labeling people pets as mutts know that you yourself have a mutt, it didn't happen over night. and again one key breed in your mutt mix is the poodle!!!

I don't understand the dog breed racism,
So yes someone is trying to create another breed just as people have been doing for thousands of years, it takes time and genetic selection to get the right mix but this is a new breed so it will take time.

And why not pick the poodle, they have so many great attributes(other then the manly thing), and they are one of the smartest breeds of dogs, my wife has a "mutt" shih tzu/poodle mix and its the smartest thing I have ever seen, you don't even have to give the dog a command it just know's what you are wanting from him, I have spent very little time training him and he can do and know's everything. Very smart little guy

Here's a little reading for you to educate yourself before you start bashing.

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/gun-...andard-poodle/
http://www.poodlehistory.org/PDUCKGU.HTM
http://www.poodlehistory.org/PDUCKGU.HTM

"In North America, in 1600, salt marshes formed a paradise for waterfowl from Newfoundland to the Carolinas; a conjoined paradise included the fresh water marshes, rivers, ponds and lakes between the Atlantic coast and the Great Lakes flyway. Water dogs were among the first European dogs brought to North America from the time of settlement of St. John's, Newfoundland in 1583 (see Ships' and/or fishermen's dogs..., Newfoundland)."

They were using poodles for hunting in Canada 300 years before your DD was even a idea, they were still mix breeding different breeds to make different breeds to mix to make your breed, wow that's a long history of "mutts" don't you think!!!

Personally I would never get a poodle, not for a lack of ability it just not my style of dog

Oh ya, poodles are useless dogs.

http://www.gundogmag.com/files/2011/...le_090611D.jpg

Poodles and Labs are both hunting dogs originally, why can you not have one of the best hunting breeds by combining the two and also allowing hunters with major allergies to have a dog in the home.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

My point is it took almost 100 years of breeding to get "the greatest success stories in modern breeding " and hence the word MODERN. before you start labeling people pets as mutts know that you yourself have a mutt, it didn't happen over night. and again one key breed in your mutt mix is the poodle!!!

I don't understand the dog breed racism,
So yes someone is trying to create another breed just as people have been doing for thousands of years, it takes time and genetic selection to get the right mix but this is a new breed so it will take time.

And why not pick the poodle, they have so many great attributes(other then the manly thing), and they are one of the smartest breeds of dogs, my wife has a "mutt" shih tzu/poodle mix and its the smartest thing I have ever seen, you don't even have to give the dog a command it just know's what you are wanting from him, I have spent very little time training him and he can do and know's everything. Very smart little guy

Here's a little reading for you to educate yourself before you start bashing.

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/gun-...andard-poodle/
http://www.poodlehistory.org/PDUCKGU.HTM
http://www.poodlehistory.org/PDUCKGU.HTM

Personally I would never get a poodle, not for a lack of ability it just not my style of dog

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1. sorry, but the breed snob doesn't stick to me.
2. the DD is a pretty bad example to say all the doodle breeding is part of a master plan. oh right, you didn't say that. you said just go ahead and cross what comes your way, perhaps something good is coming out of it.
3. thank you defending poodles; I have no problem with them. wouldn't buy a puppy, but if I happened to end up with a rescue, I wouldn’t be ashamed to take him waterfowling as long as there is enough drive left in ‘em. I'm not overly stylish and couldn't care less about what snobs think of me.
With the same token, I wouldn’t look down on anybody showing up with a doodle in the blind next to me. However, I would be really interested how much he spent and what “research” he did LOL

I'm quite surprised actually at the amount of support being given to a useless breeding. Waftrudnir said it best - there is no way to measure performance, or more accurately - there is no standard to which any of these dogs are bred to. Perhaps these doodle breeders need to clearly articulate that and move forward from there if there is indeed a use for them. I think the "oodle" additive though is the only reason. Look at kijiji, there are all kinds of dog with some kind of "oodle" in them. It's a shame, poodles are a beautiful, intelligent breed but it seems most people would rather have something that is only half poodle.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Oh ya, poodles are useless dogs.

http://www.gundogmag.com/files/2011/...le_090611D.jpg

Poodles and Labs are both hunting dogs originally, why can you not have one of the best hunting breeds by combining the two and also allowing hunters with major allergies to have a dog in the home.

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Possible, but you are just as likely to end up with a completely degenerated potato with hip dysplasia that is absolutely not hypoallergenic.
Originally, there might have been a great vision and some purpose (allergies), but now they are big money. And it sounds like quite a few do cause allergies. Let’s see what is going to be left when the fashion factor wears off.

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Originally Posted by Cass

I'm quite surprised actually at the amount of support being given to a useless breeding. Waftrudnir said it best - there is no way to measure performance, or more accurately - there is no standard to which any of these dogs are bred to. Perhaps these doodle breeders need to clearly articulate that and move forward from there if there is indeed a use for them. I think the "oodle" additive though is the only reason. Look at kijiji, there are all kinds of dog with some kind of "oodle" in them. It's a shame, poodles are a beautiful, intelligent breed but it seems most people would rather have something that is only half poodle.

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My thoughts are once you acquire performance and traits one is looking for then you would set the standards to which dogs are to be breed, is that not how it goes.
If its not there yet then how do you set the standard, and what do you do with the dogs during this process kill them?
and why is it useless breeding? I don't get this.

And to Waftudnir how do you develop a breed without mixing breeds, Take the PP, it had to start with someone saying lets mix a poodle breed with this pointer breed and see what kind of dog comes out of it, and low and behold you have the poodle pointer arguably one of the best versatile hunting dogs(after decades of genetic selection)
It's not like there mixing dogs and cats

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

...And to Waftudnir how do you develop a breed without mixing breeds, Take the PP, it had to start with someone saying lets mix a poodle breed with this pointer breed and see what kind of dog comes out of it, and low and behold you have the poodle pointer arguably one of the best versatile hunting dogs(after decades of genetic selection)
It's not like there mixing dogs and cats

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Why do you need a new breed? For the same reason why cooks develop new recipes - to make money. Yes, all the unpalatable stuff goes into the garbage. You have to try out a lot of things before one recipe will become part of the average person’s diet - because there are already so many good ones. Beside, if you don't like the cuisine of your area, just get a recipe book from Europe or Asia. The same (at least in the case of Europe) applies to dog breeds IMHO.
There are a few PP guys on here, so I won't dare to speak on their behalf. All I tried to tell you is that if you would apply the DD's breeding system (back then and now), you would not see doodles everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

My point is it took almost 100 years of breeding to get "the greatest success stories in modern breeding " and hence the word MODERN. before you start labeling people pets as mutts know that you yourself have a mutt, it didn't happen over night. and again one key breed in your mutt mix is the poodle!!!

I don't understand the dog breed racism,
So yes someone is trying to create another breed just as people have been doing for thousands of years, it takes time and genetic selection to get the right mix but this is a new breed so it will take time.

And why not pick the poodle, they have so many great attributes(other then the manly thing), and they are one of the smartest breeds of dogs, my wife has a "mutt" shih tzu/poodle mix and its the smartest thing I have ever seen, you don't even have to give the dog a command it just know's what you are wanting from him, I have spent very little time training him and he can do and know's everything. Very smart little guy

Here's a little reading for you to educate yourself before you start bashing.

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/gun-...andard-poodle/
http://www.poodlehistory.org/PDUCKGU.HTM
http://www.poodlehistory.org/PDUCKGU.HTM

"In North America, in 1600, salt marshes formed a paradise for waterfowl from Newfoundland to the Carolinas; a conjoined paradise included the fresh water marshes, rivers, ponds and lakes between the Atlantic coast and the Great Lakes flyway. Water dogs were among the first European dogs brought to North America from the time of settlement of St. John's, Newfoundland in 1583 (see Ships' and/or fishermen's dogs..., Newfoundland)."

They were using poodles for hunting in Canada 300 years before your DD was even a idea, they were still mix breeding different breeds to make different breeds to mix to make your breed, wow that's a long history of "mutts" don't you think!!!

Personally I would never get a poodle, not for a lack of ability it just not my style of dog

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Well said.

... and for the record (most know anyway):
a GWP is the offspring of a DD that did not meet breeding standards. that much about how you create a new "breed" nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

Why do you need a new breed? For the same reason why cooks develop new recipes - to make money. Yes, all the unpalatable stuff goes into the garbage. You have to try out a lot of things before one recipe will become part of the average person’s diet - because there are already so many good ones. Beside, if you don't like the cuisine of your area, just get a recipe book from Europe or Asia. The same (at least in the case of Europe) applies to dog breeds IMHO.
There are a few PP guys on here, so I won't dare to speak on their behalf. All I tried to tell you is that if you would apply the DD's breeding system (back then and now), you would not see doodles everywhere.

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No you need a new breeds to meet changing peoples requirements, and you develop new recipes not to make money, but the introduction of new spices and idea's,

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"Beside, if you don't like the cuisine of your area, just get a recipe book from Europe or Asia. The same (at least in the case of Europe) applies to dog breeds IMHO."

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Really what does this even mean... and where do you think all dog breeds came from, Europe

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

... and for the record (most know anyway):
a GWP is the offspring of a DD that did not meet breeding standards. that much about how you create a new "breed" nowadays.

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WOW the GWP is the failed offspring of the DD, I'll let the GWP guys handle this ignorant comment.

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The breeders who supported this movement looked first to the old German Standard Poodle for its retrieving, tracking and calm demeanor, and to the English Pointer for its nose, style and search in the field. Through a series of experiments they bred the best of the coarse-haired breeds — Griffon, Stichelhaar, and Pudelpointer — with the German Shorthair to ultimately arrive at the Deutsch-Drahthaar. Their idea was to take the very best wherever they found it and use it for the advancement toward the characteristics they wanted in a versatile dog. The crossbreeding strategy of these breeders was revolutionary and they received harsh criticism from other breeders. Nevertheless, they remained single-minded in their purpose and continued with uncompromising dedication until they reached their goal.

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Hey Waftrudnir

WOW it looks like your DD was started by mixing the German Standard POODLE with the English Pointer lolololol, then they added the Griffon, Stichelhaar, and pudelpointer, then throw in the GSP and you end up with the DD.

Looks like you got yourself a Mutt brother!!!!!!

This all comes from The Deutsch-Dralhthaar Canadian site: wow what a little reading does.

http://www.vdd-canada.ca/public/the-...cteristics.htm

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

No you need a new breeds to meet changing peoples requirements, and you develop new recipes not to make money, but the introduction of new spices and idea's,


Really what does this even mean... and where do you think all dog breeds came from, Europe

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do you really think the poodle is a new spice?
do you also think that all of Europe's dog breeds were successfully introduced to North America. they were not and there might a reson for it. if you feel you need a different tread on your tire you don't need to re-invent the wheel.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

... I'll let the GWP guys handle this ignorant comment.

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sure have it.
LOL
doesn't matter what I try to say, you won't get the point. you asked how the GWP was developed, I talked about the DD (not being a breed snob). just thought I make sure it's clear that the "GWP" is a spin off.
you could go all day about the VDD if one likes or dislikes certain things and a lot of people have done so over the decades.

The "doodle" or for that matter whole Hyphen dog phenomenon was a stroke of marketing genius. Seems now you can cross 2 breeds and the dam and sire don't even need to be particularly good representatives of their breeds and the hyphenated offsprings are instantly in demand by the yuppies. In fact they will insist that the hyphendog is actually a breed. There may be some good breeders who are actually using certified and health cleared Sire/dams but I would guess that is less than 5% of this new category. People are crossing rat dogs and listing them on Kijiji and making serious money. I mean give your head a shake here, if you can sell pups at $2000 a head do you really think these backyard breeders and wannabe puppy mills are in it to be the pioneers of a dog breed and or wanting to improve it? You may very well get a good one, that is the case in any mutt but you are rolling the dice and paying dearly for every roll. You would be better off buying a well bred poodle which are available in S-M-L for half the money. My parents always had poodles when I was growing up and they are surprisingly tough dogs and very intelligent.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

My thoughts are once you acquire performance and traits one is looking for then you would set the standards to which dogs are to be breed, is that not how it goes.
If its not there yet then how do you set the standard, and what do you do with the dogs during this process kill them?
and why is it useless breeding? I don't get this.

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Sounds backwards to me, I would think you would be looking for a specific trait or skill set if consciously crossing breeds

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Originally Posted by Cass

Sounds backwards to me, I would think you would be looking for a specific trait or skill set if consciously crossing breeds

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A cutesy name usually suffices in this target market. If it ends in "poo" it's worth an extra $500.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Sounds backwards to me, I would think you would be looking for a specific trait or skill set if consciously crossing breeds

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Well ,if a poodle is a great retriever and a lab is a great retriever , combining them should equal a super- duper retriever. No? It doesn't work that way ? :)

Some of the reasons for combining breeds have been minor in my opinion. Why did we need a GWP when we had a GSP? I assume we needed a dog that could handle late season duck retrieves more safely.
No more Jack Russell Terriers . There are now Parson Russell terriers and Russell terriers, bred smaller to enter holes more easily I guess. The old JRT entered holes just fine for years.

Folks like to play with genetics . Some for the better and some for the worse ..... flat faced dogs that have respiratory problems( Why bred that way?) and those poor German Shepherds walking on their hips. ( Why bred that way?)

Combining breeds for poor reasons has gone on for years.

edited for punctuation - I can't help it , I'm an old teacher. :)

I love it when somebody tries to tell me the have an Elhew Pointer or a Llewellin setter. That is just the blood line to me!

I believe a Sharon Terrier would be far more a hunting terrier if you were to breed!

Dick

Dick

Big difference between an Elhew or Llewellyn than a Hyphenmutt. They are in fact purbred dogs but as you say just a particular bloodline not a breed apart.

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

... and for the record (most know anyway):
a GWP is the offspring of a DD that did not meet breeding standards. that much about how you create a new "breed" nowadays.

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Ok this just shows what we're dealing with. And I'm done with this conversation.
Its just comments like this one.

DD. Deutsch Drahthaar is the German name for German Wirehaired Pointer. Lolololololol. There the same thing!!!!


Now read your comment above. Where do you get your information from? Or do you just talk out your ?

And that's enough.