Boat Safety

I have noticed in this magazine and many more out door publications the lack of use of PFD's in pictures for articles or ads. I see in articles pictures of fish caught being held by the lucky fisherman no PFD, or ads with a beautiful picture of grandpa and grandson fishing in a 14 foot aluminum with a properly fitted PFD on grandson and grandpa with none. With todays PFD's there is no reason not to wear one. I wear mine 100% of the time while fishing. My grandkids have seen me without mine while pontooning but never in the fishing boat, being the 14 foot aluminum with the old Johnson 9.5 replaced last year with one that has been on the maybe next years list for a while. I just think out door publication should be more proactive in this aspect of PFD use. One rough wave while standing to land that lunker could end in tragedy no matter the size of boat you are in.

The difference is a PFD is required for children,but,not for adults. They must only be "available." I rank this right up there with legislation for bike helmets and safety seats in vehicles. Kids don't know any better,but,adults should. The best commercial I've ever seen for PFD's is the one where the kids are adrift on the lake because the adult has gone overboard. At one time,I actually saw that happen. It was heart wrenching.

Hi Thump, this subject has come up many times on here in the past. What should be common sense, isn't really so common among many within this forum. Get ready, because as sure as the sun rise's each morning, you're going to be called a liberal for suggesting people wear PFD's.

I don't normally wear a PFD when fishing - I'm a fair swimmer and fish small water bodies where you're never more than 500 yards or so from shore. 25hp on a v151 legend. Not much danger of getting thrown out - and I can get back into the boat from the water pretty easily. My girls can both swim - they've both done the swimming lessons from 3 years old up and are certified lifeguards.

There is too broad of range between who "should" wear life jackets and when it's okay not too.
Do I need to wear one when I'm swimming too then?

I do wear my lifejacket all the time in my Bayliner with 130hp on it.

I am more than a bit shocked when people who can't swim go in boats without life jackets.

A law requiring people to use the kill switch tether would be far, far more useful than a law requiring life jackets to be worn.

Next we need the boaters test to include basic swimming and ability to reboard from the water. After that, maybe we can worry about a law requiring life jacket use.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

I don't normally wear a PFD when fishing - I'm a fair swimmer and fish small water bodies where you're never more than 500 yards or so from shore. 25hp on a v151 legend. Not much danger of getting thrown out - and I can get back into the boat from the water pretty easily. My girls can both swim - they've both done the swimming lessons from 3 years old up and are certified lifeguards.

There is too broad of range between who "should" wear life jackets and when it's okay not too.
Do I need to wear one when I'm swimming too then?

I do wear my lifejacket all the time in my Bayliner with 130hp on it.

I am more than a bit shocked when people who can't swim go in boats without life jackets.

A law requiring people to use the kill switch tether would be far, far more useful than a law requiring life jackets to be worn.

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I'll play devils advocate... How do you plan to swim or get yourself back in the boat if you've hit your head on the the side of the boat or landed on a rock when you fall out? Chances are, you're not going to fall out if you haven't slipped or hit something.

FishFrenzy

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Next we need the boaters test to include basic swimming and ability to reboard from the water. After that, maybe we can worry about a law requiring life jacket use.

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Now you're on to something! The current PCOC is ridiculous and should be changed. More stringent testing for actual competence, as opposed to handing them out at outdoor shows and the like.

Frig don't be calling me one of those lol. I am not suggesting legislature on this because I really can not see myself in the pontoon with one as they leave terrible tan lines. What I am saying is maybe this magazine says to its fishing contributors is "try to get as many pics with your PFD's on while in the boat". Nothing hard hitting just slyly saying we wear ours you should wear yours. The old saying a picture is worth a thousand words.

The shore of the lake I fish most often is less then 100 yards from the center the lake at it's deepest point is 8 feet. Statistically speaking I would be more likely to get killed crossing the road downtown because I wasn't wearing a life jacket.

Do you wear a life jacket in your pool?

Now when I am on larger lakes I do wear a life jacket.

Beat me to it.

I wear an auto inflator PFD for just that reason. If i fall out and knock myself out - the rapport of the PFD opening is supposed to awaken me - plus having tested it out - it pulls my head above water - with or without waders on.

Life jackets this time of the year are pretty important. The water temps are still ridiculously cold and hypothermia can set in fairly quickly if you can’t get back in the boat in time.

Be safe out there guys.

Eventually it will be law, like seatbelts.

A few years ago a small sail boater flipped his boat in Lake O. he was pulled from the water within 20 mins and said the water was so cold he was close to hypothermia, he could not pull himself onto the boat. He was wearing a PFD and I suspect that was what saved him. Even a strong swimmer will not last too long in cold water with no PFD, it sucks the wind out of you and your arms get so cold you cant feel them.

If I am not wearing my PFD my ditch bag is out ready to go at all times.

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Originally Posted by FishFrenzy

I'll play devils advocate... How do you plan to swim or get yourself back in the boat if you've hit your head on the the side of the boat or landed on a rock when you fall out? Chances are, you're not going to fall out if you haven't slipped or hit something.

FishFrenzy

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Very, very, very few PFDs will keep an unconscious persons face out of the water, particularly if you fall frontwards out of the boat.

What I see here is people looking for a solution to a problem that isn't there.

The majority of boating related drownings fall into three categories
- drunks falling out of boats (1991-2000 stats 37% with alcohol suspected in another 6%. 31% unknown. Only 27% of boating drowning victims know to NOT have involved alcohol).
- idiots ripping around recklessly, usually on craft with more HP than they can handle
- people boating in bad weather who decided to "make a run for it" instead of finding somewhere safe

Cold water and hypothermia (which life jackets provide very little protection against) were a factor in 36% of drownings. A ban on cold water boating would be far more effective than life jacket use.


You might save a few of those with life jackets, but lets address the root cause of the problems, not waste time on the bs "what if" scenarios that in reality, almost never occur.

Wearing your PFD has nothing to do with whether or not you're the licensed operator of the boat. Do you expect a licensed or unlicensed passenger to wear their seatbelt while in your car? If the passenger is over 18 and can suffer the monetary consequences of being charged with no seatbelt, regardless of whether they've got a license and have taken a test... do you let them go unbelted while you drive?

I guess my perspective is different. I grew up with life jackets, just like I grew up with seatbelts. Now my kids are growing up with life jackets, just as they are with seatbelts. Car doesn't move without your seatbelt on, boat/canoe shouldn't be moving without the life jacket on either.

A swim test to obtain a boaters license makes little to no sense. An unconscious person can't swim.

It's worth noting that seatbelts are not 100% effective, and neither are airbags. But as a volunteer firefighter, I've seen people ejected from vehicles not wearing seatbelts. Maybe he would have survived, maybe injuries sustained prior to ejection would have resulted in death..... but just like a seatbelt, a PFD sure doesn't do anything if it's sitting on the seat beside you.

I'm old and grumpy. Nobody gets in my boat without a PFD on period. Short or long trip. Just makes me feel better.

So these posts about "unconscious in the water"...
Have a look at http://www.boatus.org/life-jackets/.
The most commonly used lifejacket (where I boat - about 99%) are the type III.

Which are:

Good for protected, inland water near shore, where chance of immediate rescue is good.
Not suitable for extended survival in rough water.
Not designed to turn unconscious people face up in water.

So if we're going to bother with mandating them - at least make it the ones that work - see type I.

It will never happen to us.

No one plans on ending up in the water.

We are selfish and full of machismo, but we have the right to be fools for now.

No - I've ended up in the water a couple of times. Both times I just walked to shore - I was a passenger.

What is being foolish is pretending that the life jacket is the be-all-end-all to boating safety - which it is not.

I wonder how many wear a helmet while walking downtown in Toronto or Ottawa or a helmet in the bathtub?? Some of the lakes I canoe on I can paddle across literally in 5 minutes I probably have a trillion percent chance more of getting killed crossing the street in a small town then flipping my canoes in these small lakes.

Some of the rivers I use to canoe were only 3 - 4 feet deep and 10 - 20 feet wide.

As Werner says some of these PDF will not help if your unconscious.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

N

What is being foolish is pretending that the life jacket is the be-all-end-all to boating safety - which it is not.

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I don't think anyone is suggesting that? But it's a good start.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Very, very, very few PFDs will keep an unconscious persons face out of the water, particularly if you fall frontwards out of the boat.

What I see here is people looking for a solution to a problem that isn't there.

The majority of boating related drownings fall into three categories
- drunks falling out of boats (1991-2000 stats 37% with alcohol suspected in another 6%. 31% unknown. Only 27% of boating drowning victims know to NOT have involved alcohol).
- idiots ripping around recklessly, usually on craft with more HP than they can handle
- people boating in bad weather who decided to "make a run for it" instead of finding somewhere safe

Cold water and hypothermia (which life jackets provide very little protection against) were a factor in 36% of drownings. A ban on cold water boating would be far more effective than life jacket use.


You might save a few of those with life jackets, but lets address the root cause of the problems, not waste time on the bs "what if" scenarios that in reality, almost never occur.

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LOL - I wasn't wasting time, only starting a discussion. I didn't realize a discussion forum wasn't for discussion; hence my "I'll play devils advocate". Why such anger to something as simple as suggesting you may need one if you're knocked out. Calling out a reason why someone may choose to wear a PFD isn't BS, it's another view on the subject.

Regardless of your stats on life jackets most worn, if you are face down it's still easier for a passenger / passerby to retrieve you and begin CPR if you're above water. To suggest that we should just ban things all together as a counter argument is ridiculous.

I also am guilty of not wearing my life jacket at all times - but I also don't see this thread advocating for 100% compliance, rather others views on safety. I was merely suggesting that wearing one isn't a bad choice, and opening the discussion up. I'm not advocating for more controls and rules to curb stupidity.

FishFrenzy

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Originally Posted by FishFrenzy

LOL - I wasn't wasting time, only starting a discussion. I didn't realize a discussion forum wasn't for discussion; hence my "I'll play devils advocate". Why such anger to something as simple as suggesting you may need one if you're knocked out. Calling out a reason why someone may choose to wear a PFD isn't BS, it's another view on the subject.

Regardless of your stats on life jackets most worn, if you are face down it's still easier for a passenger / passerby to retrieve you and begin CPR if you're above water. To suggest that we should just ban things all together as a counter argument is ridiculous.

I also am guilty of not wearing my life jacket at all times - but I also don't see this thread advocating for 100% compliance, rather others views on safety. I was merely suggesting that wearing one isn't a bad choice, and opening the discussion up. I'm not advocating for more controls and rules to curb stupidity.

FishFrenzy

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No anger - just pointing out the reality is that only a very few life jackets (rarely used by recreational boaters) help an unconscious person. As far as my suggestions being ridiculous - if we are concerned about saving lives - they make more sense than mandating life jackets - or since we like the word "ban" - banning non-pfd boating.

Wearing one is never a bad choice - but your reason for wearing it might be - and if the reason your wearing one is to protect yourself if you are unconscious in the water - at least make sure you are wearing one that will address that problem.

Sorry if it comes across as anger when I have to play "Captain Obvious".

Wearing a life jacket while in a boat, increases your chances of survival.... So percentage wise you are better off with it then without it....

Auto-Inflatable lifejackets really make it easy nowadays.

This year for the first time on Graham Lake the CO’s were out. My 12 yr old girl does not fit the “kids” life jacket anymore and we have a body glove medium life jacket for her. When he stopped us, 5 adults over 65, me at 52 (only one who had to produce a fishing license lol)and daughter at 12, he made us all prove life jackets. He showed us that her medium could still slip over her head while wearing it. I was waiting for the fine (and rightly so), he let us off. Full check, lights, battery with working light, throw line (safety kit) registration, boaters license. Was impressed about booster cables, first aid kit, tow rope, extra fuel separator & fuel filter, prop (with nut and cotter pin). I was polite and respectful and he went on his way. They were driving a Lund Rebel 16ft with no markings and very small patches of MNR on sleeves. They got 8 of the 15 people they stopped that day for fines. The original owner of the park said in 30 yrs, this was first time he ever seen them. We do not wear life jackets on our 22 ft pontoon boat, unless small kids or those who say they do not swim. You can never be too prepared!!!

It took decades before they "got it right" with 3 point seatbelts... and even those aren't perfect. I have an auto racing background and have used 5/6pt harnesses... As great as they are, I know they'll never see life in a passenger vehicle. And even 5/6pt belts aren't perfect; a tightly restrained body and a helmet on your head is also a recipe for disaster. Now many racing organizations require the use of a HANS (head and neck restraint) type device, which fastens to your helmet and is braced to your body (various designs). I know people who have died in head-on collisions in cars without HANS devices, and people who have crashed shortly after the implementation of the HANS into racing and vowed to never get in a race car without one again. They spoke of the incredible difference they felt when the straps went tight and their head stopped moving without bending/stressing their neck and spinal column. But will we ever see 6 point harnesses and HANS-type devices in consumer vehicles? I highly doubt it!

Windshields weren't always laminated glass. And the transition wasn't perfect either. Glass necklace anyone?

Back to the first post in this whole mess though... Is there anything wrong with promoting the use of safety equipment in the photographs we post and publish online?

It's all about risk assessment. Some people are capable of it and Darwin gets the rest, to would if it were not for helmets, seat belts, PFD's, etc.
if I am out in dodgy conditions I wear mine. When sitting in my 12 ' running my trolling motor I don't. I also don't stand up and try to take a leak over the side....or land a fish.

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Originally Posted by northernontario

It took decades before they "got it right" with 3 point seatbelts... and even those aren't perfect. I have an auto racing background and have used 5/6pt harnesses... As great as they are, I know they'll never see life in a passenger vehicle. And even 5/6pt belts aren't perfect; a tightly restrained body and a helmet on your head is also a recipe for disaster. Now many racing organizations require the use of a HANS (head and neck restraint) type device, which fastens to your helmet and is braced to your body (various designs). I know people who have died in head-on collisions in cars without HANS devices, and people who have crashed shortly after the implementation of the HANS into racing and vowed to never get in a race car without one again. They spoke of the incredible difference they felt when the straps went tight and their head stopped moving without bending/stressing their neck and spinal column. But will we ever see 6 point harnesses and HANS-type devices in consumer vehicles? I highly doubt it!

Windshields weren't always laminated glass. And the transition wasn't perfect either. Glass necklace anyone?

Back to the first post in this whole mess though... Is there anything wrong with promoting the use of safety equipment in the photographs we post and publish online?

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There is if intelligence goes out the window - as OOD has done with the silliness around having big game tags visible in all photos. Wearing a life jacket (or not) is not the big issue for most boaters and for many who think it is - the life jackets they are using will not provide them the security they think it will (protection from hypothermia, unconsciousness).

Just as important as wearing a PFD is using the teather on your motor/ignition switch. Mine is attached to my PFD. I like to troll more than still fish. Falling overboard would really suck if your boat just kept on going,especially,when water temp is really low this time of year,although,it would certainly make body recovery easier.