Well the cat is out of the bag. After months of saying these latest teacher strikes and job actions "wasn't" about money it turns out the demand is 3% a year for 3 years plus cost of living increases. Who knew.........:rolleyes:
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Well the cat is out of the bag. After months of saying these latest teacher strikes and job actions "wasn't" about money it turns out the demand is 3% a year for 3 years plus cost of living increases. Who knew.........:rolleyes:
The very low level of common sense of these people is staggering. They don't have the propriety to temper their demands to a level ordinary taxpayers could tolerate.....maybe, and go from there. These "union" people need a slap upside the head. Job loss and over taxation by the Wynne Liberals has reduced the middle class tax base in Ontario by about 40%. That's organized labor for you,though. They'll never "get it."
Its always about money but how out to lunch is this union? 10% over 3 years and then what another 10%? Even during prosperous times that would be pretty rich. Anyhow I believe the fix is in and they will likely settle at 6 or 7% and the government will brag that they were tough with the teacher unions.
3% over and above cost of living (aka inflation?). That's 4.9% per year.
Most private sector employees don't even get cost of living.
Link to article on this http://www.640toronto.com/2015/06/17/oakley-174/
WOW! I am shocked. How could we have known? And all along I was thinking class sizes was the sticking point. How silly am I to think that there would be a money grab in all of this.
Well, Mr and Mrs Taxpayer, get out your cheque book because I am will to wager beers that they will get their way. Kathleen will simply have to delay the Toronto infrastructure handout until they can come up with another way to bilk the taxpayers.
Can't really go leaping off any bridges based on Werner's link. In that write-up, the author alleges that the ETFO has made demands, that the ETFO has denied both officially and unofficially.
The title of the link claims there's proof somewhere... but i failed to see it.
None of that is to say i'll be the least bit surprised when the numbers are released and it is proven to all be about yet another salary increase.
Harper is in town today spreading pre election grease. No doubt the Provincial share of this project will now be diverted in part to the teacher's contract. I also agree that the deal was agreed on weeks ago. This is just smoke and mirrors to give the sheep the impression that the union doesn't "own" this government.
Oh those poor teachers they suffer so much and work so much harder than the rest of us.:)
National post link that comes up with the same 3.2b cost, but doesn't give the amount of raise expected. Where there's smoke, there's fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...l-boards-claim
Somebody's telling a mistruth... I hate political lingo and can't stand that the phrase "has not formally tabled any salary position at the central bargaining table" is used over and over again.
In the end no one will admit to lying and it will be attributed to "creative accounting" I really don't understand why this has to be such a long and drawn out process. The contract went out almost a year ago and you have to figure that some kind of bargaining had to start before that. I hate to think how many tax dollars have been flushed strictly on the, largely useless, "negotiations".
What the ETFO has to say about the $$$ issue:
From: http://www.etfo.ca/MediaRoom/MediaRe...onditions.aspx
ETFO has tabled no formal salary position; focus is on student learning conditionsJune 16, 2015
The Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario (ETFO) has not formally tabled any salary position at the central bargaining table with the government and the Ontario Public School Boards’ Association (OPSBA). Instead, it agreed only to talk about non-monetary issues that have an impact on student learning.
"OPSBA’s release regarding our supposed monetary demands is a tactic to deflect the pressure its school boards are currently facing to produce report cards, a situation some brought on themselves by refusing to release the marks submitted by teachers," said ETFO President Sam Hammond.
"I have said all along that the current discussions are not about money. ETFO has not tabled a formal monetary position at the central bargaining table. Instead we have focused on non-monetary issues such as class size, fair and transparent hiring practices, teacher professionalism and other issues."
ETFO has tabled a number of issues related to student learning conditions including:
- additional support for children with special needs;
- streamlining and consolidating numerous Ministry initiatives that are currently unfocussed and do not contribute to student achievement;
- respecting teachers’ professional judgment in using assessment and diagnostic testing in the classroom.
"Instead of trying to shame and blame teachers, we need OPSBA to put their energies into reaching a fair and reasonable collective agreement. If they can’t or won’t, then the Liberal government should intervene rapidly to restore stability in the education system."
The Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario represents 76,000 elementary public school teachers, occasional teachers and education professionals across the province.
I've always said that no matter what the union executive or members say, It's Aways About the Money!
Yep.
Some ( read Unions and the entitled in PS)
Really have
no clue
no basis in reality
no appreciation for those who work hard, so they don't have to. Aka the "common man", the peons
no matter how it's sliced or diced, whether true or not.
In plain English relative to the peons who can only dream about retirement, work hard, pay taxes, have kids and bills and rising taxes, rising hydro....They live like kings.
And if they had any morals, conscious at all. This "strike" this latest gun to the head wouldn't even be.
Theyd be doing their jobs and thankful, they have it so good relative to near everyone else who don't have security, are feeling lay-offs and downsizing, cutbacks and belt tightening.....and more.
It's always been this way with the teachers and I cannot see it changing anytime soon. My brother worked for the board of education for 37 years and he always pointed out to the teachers what they created was the biggest scam going. He did however mention from time to time that a teacher with a conscious and morals was very appreciative for their job. But unfortunately when the chips were down and the teachers needed support things would change due to the fact that they if they didn't he or she would be ostracized.
I appreciate the teachers and the job they do and I believe many of them are in it for the right reasons but this system is broken and I don't see it getting fixed until it crashes.
Well, when teachers aren't giving out report cards ... and parents are pretty pissed off now ... I'd say the system is crashing.
Another part of the story... or at least some different input and aspects
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/06/17...ors_picks=true
I'm certainly not looking for any sympathy but to put things into perspective, I'm in the OPS and I haven't seen a raise, or even a cost of living hike in 5 years (although the higher ups always seem to get substantial raises). At this point OPSEU, or most of it, is working without a contract. At BEST, we are hoping to maintain the benefits we have now. The way Wynne is spending I don't anticipate a raise or cost of living increase for another 4 years.
When we used to get raises they were around 1 - 1.5%.
And I'm in private sector. Last raise I got was 6 years ago...and that was because I was leaving otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
Teachers I believe many go into it for the cause...stay in it for the pay, benefits, pension and summers on the dock.
I hate to say it but if you have the power to get what you want, take advantage of it because everybody would and everybody does.....
Personally, I make sure to have no personal relation with teachers, that's my own revolution.
Bottom line imo is this.
The unions ( and many of their members, but certainly not all) will have no-one to blame but themselves. The problems are growing, not diminishing. Healthcare is also under assault as are many other things and that's going to get worse as boomers put even more strains on it and theres no or little $$.
It staggers me, that people can't see what's coming, what life is really like for those in private and the "common" man. Especially those without Pensions.
For many years, people refused to see, to listen. I think (could be wrong) it's inevitable and it is just now beginning.
/shrug
For Teachers, who no argument have tough jobs, but who work roughly 9 months of year and get paid really well (relatively/comparatively speaking) and have a Pension...
Rocket science it ain't. Smaller class sizes=more teachers=higher pay=higher union dues......and THAT is the bottom line.
What ever happened to being happy to have a great job with a long summer vacation a march break and a Christmas break to boot ,,plus a great pention .thy got nothing to complain about as far as I can see ,,Dutch
Dutch we don't know for sure about these purported 3% and cost of living claims. (smells bad though)
True or not doesn't really matter.
We don't have money for things like
Healthcare
Infrastruture
much more.
We do have private taking it on the chin (It being a number of things)
As Trimmer pointed out.
Class size impacts the number of full and part time teachers.
Shame the province is up to it's eyeballs in debt, doesn't have $ for more, as or other important things or is taxing people up the ying/yang.
Why not?
No one to blame but themselves (Them being......)
So this strike, or wide spread job actions......
Now if true and it turns out the EFTO has its head stuck in the trough yet again, especially given the real world.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Absolutely! :silly:
It's way past high time we cut the heads off at the neck while they suck from that trough. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Hello all: To get the ball roiling, I am anti union, have been an Army guy for 29 yrs, never had one. BUT, the flip side, I am married to a teacher. So here is the teacher side of the story. This is third party, and as a man, we all know I only listen to less than half of what she says.
It is not the money!!!!, It is about class size, and the prov. involvement with daily class activity. As like the rest of us, thay have lost sick days and severance, we got paid out, they did not. It was just gone, and a cap of ten days. And a twist added, if the go over their allotted 10 sicks days, they get a reduced pay any days after that.
They are paid on a 10 month year, 190 working days. The can either collect it all in 10 months, not draw UI during the summer, or take it over 12 months. During the last contract issue, last year, they had many items removed, first was the right to binding arbitration, the prov just walked away, passed a law sayiing it was illegal and ordered them back.
The also had three days pay taken off their salary, and legal way to contest it. They have not had a raise in many years.
Classsize: The current size is 21 kids elementary age. If there are special needs kids, they are sposed to have an EA(education assitant) per special needs kid. The purposed change would up the size to 30, and drop the EA. Save money. SO to walk a mile in them shoes, place yourselves in a class or 30 4 year olds, and have one in a wheelchair, and two with violent outbursts from any of the ailments. ADD, ADHA, Autism, etc.
Teachers are all permitted to have at least one forty minute prep per day, to mark, plan and eat. The new purposal is to have the board dictate what they do on these preps. The biggest one is do coverage for the EA jobs that were cut. Second it to run sports, clubs, field trips all mandated by the management. Sounds like fun eh!!
Report Cards: Every teacher has submitted grades/marks to the principal by the date demanded. It was a board decision to publish or not, but they have all the marks.
My wife is currently attending the year end BBQ, where she is prepping/cooking/serving free food to all parents and kids. Oh, and she just worked a full day first.
This entire new action from the prov is designed to drive out older teacher who are the top of the pay scale, one modeled after the Prov employee's union, to hire new teacher's at a lower scale, and do what they are told, just to keep a job.
So, as I stated in the opening, NOT a union fan, but am tired of all the crap my wife is through.
So to close, I will chastise most of the previous comments on the fact that they are all based on what the NEWS says, please, if you're gonna cast stones, get all the facts, not just what they want you to hear.
Ian Thomson
Lots of painters out there....... using the same brush, (I guess its a roller now days) on all teachers isn't cool/right...
Very insightful post. Thank you for pointing out the side of the story, of those who do the actual work.Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrat
Waterrat my children went to a private Christian School until grade eight and then later to a Catholic High School. Both my wife were very involved with this school early on as well as the other parents and teachers. I worked two jobs and my wife worked full time as well to pay the tuition. The teachers at this school were not high income earners but were content to have a job with a pension to retire on.
These teachers did not have what the public system has in place and produced some of the brightest children with much less resources. Not only did we still have to pay taxes to go towards the public system we also had to pay tuition. Our choice yes and I am not complaining.
I do not feel sorry for the picture you paint for the current situation the teachers are in because sooner or later this was going to happen. For many years the teachers were catered to and got everything handed to them by the Liberals. Sooner or later it was going to bite them in the arse and it will and has.
Be thank ful your wife has a job.
YellowDog:
I am in no way painting a picture of pity, it is the exact opposite. Do I feel bad for the wife, NO, she has a job, just like the rest of us. We all pay taxes, and suffer the Ontario life. My wife and I are both born, breed, educated and worked on the Eastcoast. MY POINT IS;
I don't like the way the mentality that the average voting citizen in this prov has towards teachers. My bride is a professional, she loves her job, and she is very good at it. HOWEVER, since moving here, she has learned to be bitter. This prov has a false sense of entitlement towards the role of teachers. She feels under apperciated and used up on a daily basis. In her and my opinion, teachers are a glorified babysitter. EXAMPLE: Snow days. In the Eastern part of the country, where to get crappy weather, a SNOW DAY is a snow day. Period, No Buses, no kids, no teachers. HERE, a snow day is for the buses only. School is open, and teachers are required to make every effort to show up. It is business as usual. The parents get mad if they have no where to take the kids. They are not concerned about the bad roads, buses stuck or teachers risking life and limb to get to work.
I do not want to make this pi^%$g contest. They work hard, make a good wage, and are under appreciated,
And last time I checked, we still have a Liberal Gov't
I don't expect that. What I expect. Is that if I can make it to work, my kids can make it to school (with my assistance), then why can't the teachers be expected to make it to work, and the other students to school. I don't possess and superhuman ability or skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrat
I think society is getting over pussified.
There's whining and excuses for everything. Take another page from you earlier post. ADD/ADHD, how come every kid seems to have that or a learning disability or or or these days? Didn't seem to be a problem when I was growing up. Oh ya bad students were also flunked back then too.
Actually Fishy Wishy they had occupational classes for kids ADD/ADHD back in the 70's. Unfortunately these kids were made fun of because they were not entirely integrated into a regular classroom setting. I can remember this classroom was full of students falling well behind everyone else and some had major behavioral issues. Fortunately some of these children I knew very well and grew up to be very successful individuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrat
Ha-ha...wait... What?
Teachers - adults, I'm assuming - expect/need to receive special accolades and respect and pats on the back for simply going to work... The same as every other schmuck? Anything less is us taking them for granted? Oh...that's rich.
And regarding the class sizes... If teachers weren't doing their level best to pad their own bank accounts with too-high salaries & compensation packages, and also to block as many younger teachers from gaining jobs as possible...there'd be plenty of $$$ available to hire more teachers to shrink classes and more EAs to help with students who require increased aid.
How much money is the government giving Toronto for that bus/train route?
Schools should remain open on snow days but the public has forced them to shut down, why you might ask.....because a few years back a kid got frostbite or something like that going to school on a really cold day so the family of the child sued the school board and won..... Know if the schools stay open, they are at risk of being sued.... Got to love it, only in Canada eh.....
Whats a 'snow day'? Welcome to the real world. My wife's a school bus driver busses have crap traction. And she's responsibke for 72 children's safety on the road. Canceling a school bus makes sense for me. Oh. and she doesn't get paid for a snow day. Myself I have to go to work, just like the rest of the province. We suck it up and deal with the crappy weather. Not to start a p@@@@@ing match but.Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrat
A)my last raise was .25% I got that by switching employers.
B) I have never had a sick day.
C) I don't have a pension plan
D) I have to WORK 12 months a year 5 days a week and be on call 1 week of every 5..
E)oay 25% of my benefits package. . 80%
F) and I get all this for 25k less than an average teacher....
But yet I have to thank a teacher for doing their JOB... THANX for wrecking my children's future. That's the only thanks I'll give a teacher..
Oh BTW I had to spend 3 years in school for my profession. And yes I'm at the top end of the scale.
Probably getting taught by teachers eh... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
Wahhhh!!!
Big whine, but tell that to your grandchildren who will be paying the Interest Rates on the Bazillions of provincial debt. It'll take decades to pay it off.
Doctors police, teachers, Public Servants... bend over everyone. The glory days are over and you'd better get used to it.
Unless you all want massive increases in your tax rates.
But Oh No, we don't want that.
So time decide who gets the cuts.
Hospitals-- easy hit-- about 1% of the population has a serious ACUTE medical issue at any point in time. Therefore at election time 99% don't give a $h!T about health care. So government cuts back.
Teachers: Majority of people don't have children in school at a meaningful point of education-- only meaningful point is high school graduation-- so they can screw over everyone else with no serious consequence.
Police-- rare for anyone to need one urgently-- therefore easy to cut back because at election time- virtually no one needs police so no one thinks about it in the ballot box.
Welfare, prisoners, teen mothers, schizophrenics, "First Nations", bureaucrats, illegal immigrants, corporate hand-outs, university students, ---- at what point do we draw a line and say "You have enough for a civilized society and you will not ask for more"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrat
School buses now are controlled by "zones". If your school is within a zone that has hazardous conditions they shut them down. What reality is quite often the school itself is not necessarily in dangerous road conditions. The other reality is that even if the teachers are in the building as soon as there is a bus cancellation they don't teach that day. The day is another writeoff for students who aren't bussed in. In our school 15% are bussed. This is no different than when a teacher is not at work for illness ( quite legit and understandable they are exposed to snot nosed kids all day ) or some other BS school board junket. Any time a sub is brought in there is absolutely no instruction that day. They are there to be a warm bodied board certified babysitter. Another BS thing that they like to trade on is the "extra curricular" activities. Yes absolutely some teachers are quite devoted and give their own time and our kids are better for it. These teachers also benefited from that as students so got into the profession knowing this was part of the deal. But the reality is it's always the exact same teachers every year who do the heavy lifting and give of their time. If you have 25 teachers in a school, guaranteed that at least 15 of them are never involved yet they fly that flag as if they all did it. They don't. Anybody with kids in school can confirm this. My kids had a fabulous teacher who was involved in everything from grad, sports clubs you name it. I remember seeing her sitting on the sidelines of a rugby game grading papers. When I asked her why she was there she said no other teacher had stepped up and if she hadn't there would not have been a Rugby team that year. She had no time for that but did it anyway. She also told me she didn't know the first thing about Rugby. That young teacher had the respect and admiration of not only the parents but all her students. We lost her when she got bumped by another one with seniority. And no, we didn't have a Rugby team after she got canned.
Who made that career choice..... oh ya , you did. 3 years in school or 3 years post secondary? Maybe go back to university for 5 years and make a wiser choice, become a teacher, because it seems so easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
I have a hard enough time dealing with my own kids. No way in hell would I ever do that - I'd end up in prison. When I first started my company the first few years were lean so I taught in the engineering program at Humber to make a few extra bucks - but as soon as I had enough business I got the hell out of Dodge.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Thing is I'm not complaining. I enjoy my job. I go out and don't get thanked for coming to work. I do it it cause I enjoy it. Teachers do it for the money. All they want us more.. more.. more...Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
My post want to be an o with is me thread, it was more to show that they are unrealistic and out of touch with society.
Not true. Yorkregion is all of Yorkregion . . Simcoe has zones.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Nor I, not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Waterrat what you fail to realize is that Teachers or their Unions have brought this on themselves. Period, end of story. If its about class size and if the prove needs to increase class size from 21 to X because they need to save money. Well ask the very simple questions.
Do they actually need to reduce spending, save money?
Answer: YES!!!
Why do they need to
Answer: Because they have blown billions, spent billions, gone on hiring sprees (prior to 2010) and handed out lucrative raises and more. And who never said boo about that?
Who was more than happy to accept the love? Who has campaigned for them? Worked oh so hard to see them elected time and time and time again despite plain as day evidence and more? Despite what should have been obvious to anyone willing to think about "tomorrow"….
Answers: Teachers and their Unions
And don't you think it's past time the working stiffs of Ontario not keep paying for it? Don't you think its past time other ministries not keep paying the price? Do you think Healthcare is any less important?
Shall we rob Peter (Healthcare) to pay Pual (Teachers/education) instead?
Shall we instead lay off another 1,000 nurses as happened just a few weeks ago, so that..
Maybe we should lay off more COs, or cut the MNRs budget another 5% instead?
G you know I like you but "attitude" on that topic speaks volumes. People a lot smarter than you have weighed and measured it and its well established. Most (relatively speaking) in PSQuote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Earn more
Have better benefits
Have Pensions
You really make me "ill" sometimes. Aren't you the one with a social conscious?
I know a Parole Officer. She's a liberal believes in many things.
Despite being a "Public Servant" and she loathes Unions and co-workers much like yourself who don't understand just how privileged and "entitled" they are. She understands its taxpayers who don't have it anywhere near as good in the "real world"…
Between job security, blah blah blah blah blah…….
"People" have little control over things and just because you lucked out,…..
Id bet a lot of money I work with people who
1) Dont earn as much as you did in your final years
2) Unlike you won't retire in their early 50s. They might work well into their 60s
3) Unlike you have been laid off once or twice, and always face that prospect whenever things go down
4) Spent far more time in University than you did.
Its the utter lack of reality that you and many in PS don't have that
Earns the disdain and more.
Cause and effect.
And imo, as things get worse in coming years as many who aren't so fortunate who don't have enough saved, who don't have pensions, who are getting reamed working hard so "you" don't have to. And these are statistical facts.
The problems and backlash are going to be severe.
You often or have gone on "social crusades" with respect to the US and the "have and have nots"
Statistical Fact G
Your a have and "privileged"
the people you often put down are have nots.
There are in fact becoming two classes here in Ontario
Many in PS and the peons that pay for everything and can't save for their own retirements.
Fast forward 5 to 15 years.
I know you've already said you don't care……
PS my Parole Officer friend?
Their contract is up soonish.
Their Union wants raises
The prov is saying we want to do away with paying for benefits (drug plans) once you retire.
She gets it. And is quite ok if thats lost and doesn't "really" mind if theres no raise. And she doesn't agree that just because she's worked X years and shown up for work She shouldn't get a raise (like teachers do to)…
Like the real world, she think she should pay for it herself because currently
She's paid better than most
She has job security and its highly unlikely she'll ever lose her job
Has great benefits
And has a Pension and will be able to pay for it herself
Unlike so very very very many.
Right on! Everybody seems to want everything for no effort and ready to blame others for their own shortcomings. Mrs. T found my old Grade 8 grad picture the other day and guess what? There were 40 kids in that picture. That prompted me to find my high school grad photos and there were forty of us in that one,too. Teachers did a fantastic job back then and the sky didn't fall.so,why all the pissin' and moanin',now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy
Well, to be fair Trimmer, in that regard the old style of teaching was vastly different than today's style. And 30-40 kids in a class (hell, some classes my dad was in had SIXTY kids) was do-able.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
You learned the rules by rote. Math was math was math and there was just the one (correct, detailed and accurate) way to do it. English had rules, that one was expected to master in order to be able to communicate properly. Geography, History, etc were all based on fact and you had to actually pay attention in order to past content oriented quizzes and tests.
But somewhere down the line - and i'm not sure if teachers or parents were to blame, because it was before (or maybe at) my time - the over pussification movement, the every-kid-must-be-a-special-snowflake-buoyed-aloft-by-naught-but-exaggerated-positivity-and-support movement took over.
With those new social demands/expectations... i can't see any way a teacher can be expected to deal with 30+.
If you think others have it better , get trained-schooled and go get that other job , nothing holding you back but yourself. The PS has jobs open every day, somewhere. The grass is always greener,........ nada, nada, nada.
Hip hip hooray Jben, move to the front of the class, no pun intended. Very nicely written and bang on the money. Unfortunately their are some that never stop to think, not even for a few quick seconds, how lucky they are and how good they have it compared to a lot of people. It's always , all about them, how hard they work, how hard their job is, more raises, job security, pensions, early retirement, blah, blah , blah. They don't care about the real world, only their own best interests. And I am not painting them all with the same brush. Some do still have morals, ethics , values and commitment to their " chosen " profession, kudos to them. To the ones that don't, get out, leave, find another job with all of your perks, salaries and entitlements. Good luck with that one, lmao. Other wise, suck it up, dry away the alligator tears, and stop the wining, before you have zero sympathy, which is getting closer every day, from the public at large.
The fact that for the PS unions to get "better" compensation and less work load means that Wynne will have to take that money from another person. That person quite often can't afford anywhere near the present lifestyle nor dream of retiring with pay. So, look some single mom in the eye and tell her that little Suzie can't play soccer anymore because Mommy has to be taxed even more. Her income tax is going up, the price of Hydro is doubling, there is a gas tax coming that will make it prohibitive to drive except for work and emergencies. The Carbon Tax will raise prices on absolutely every consumable. So this mom has no choice but downsize the families consumption. Multiply that mom by hundreds of thousands and the economy shrinks due to less consumption. People get laid off and tax revenues reduce again yet the PS feel they need to throw gasoline on this burning economic fire by demanding increases to already above average wages and benefits. Wynne feels this is all good. The debt keeps rising and this Mom's kid will now grow up in a world where they have to lay off nurses and many other essential services. To end this little story/lesson on economics 101, anybody with a brain knows you can't borrow more money to pay debts. The unavoidable end to that is catastrophic take a look at Greece. They have been kicking the can down the road, refused to live within their means, elected a Socialist government who promised the moon ( Like Wynne who claimed she didn't need to cut PS jobs ) and wow, they are crumbling now. We need to add Greek as a third official language in Ontario.
I know many young people that would of been excellent teachers including my own children. But because they had teachers in high school pushing the Liberal agenda on them it soured many of the students. My oldest son said it was sickening how often teachers in the classroom would sneak this Liberal garbage in thinking no one would notice. He later attended the University of Ottawa where it became worse and had to switch universities.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
We can all look back in our past and remember teachers that had made an impact on our lives 2 or 3 possibly. But we also can remember the many who were drunks, pot heads, air heads, angry, idiots etc. that had the best pension plan.
Agree M.
I don't know how to word this, despite trying many times. We are heading for big problems. Seems as though many don't want to do anything to try and (whatever the right word is). Or don't "get it". Don't get just how of touch with "reality" things are...
So again if we the parents/taxpayers think/feel that class size should be say 20-25.
I know your answer because we've agreed on this in past. Perhaps the problem isn't class size, or lack of money for the Education portfolio. Maybe, just maybe if paying the all in cost (salary, benefits, pensions) for them all wasn't so high. There'd be money.
To hire more teachers. More EAs.
Was funny, when talking with my PO friend about some of this stuff and with no prompting from me. In her world (Policing).
She wonders why they get raises based on years versus "performance"
She wonders why so many are dead wood, just doing their time until they can retire.
She wonders why the pensions and benefits are so expensive.
Why new hires start with 3 weeks vacation (most in the real world its 2)
Why not reduce cost in ways they can (freezes or other)
Why not reduce the dead wood just collecting, especially those with 15-20 years.
So they would have a lot of $ for more
And more people who would appreciate the privileges they have. aka the security, compensation etc,
Maybe some of the tens of thousands Uni grads with student loan debt up to their eyeballs who can't find work.......because the world has changed....
In the not too distant future were going to hit a wall and the current model is unsustainable.
Do you really think that in the real world just because you get trained or a degree there is a job waiting for you? There are thousands of Doctors Nurses Engineers, Teachers, IT specialists, Graphic Artists ETC who can't find employment. If the world hires, pays and fires based on the economy why is it that the PS is immune to this reality? Why do unions feel entitled to demand better compensation when we are in deficit and over burdened with debt?Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
...............and rampant over-taxation at every turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
These clowns, "Teachers" in some cases clearly didn't do very well in economics class. Overtaxation reduces economic output and eventually reduces revenues. Overtaxation chases industry to jurisdictions where it is more favorable to operate. GM doesn't move manufacturing facilities to Mexico because they like the weather down there. The Auto sector unions have killed that industry by squeezing wages that just don't reflect the value of work done. If they had understood that working on an assembly line isn't worth $90k/yr they might still have jobs at $65k. Industry has a choice to make decisions like relocating. Taxpayers have no choice in sending work out to a lowest bidder. We are trapped but at some point we will have no more credit available and reality for the PS will radical. The irony is that the left who demonize Harper for allowing the Chinese to invest into Oil sands infrastructure have no problem letting the debt rise for instant gratification but quite often that debt is owned/backed by the Chinese anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
If parents were allowed to "opt out" of taxation for education and be responsible for their own decisions and pay for private schools with that portion of the tax money the education industry would be dramatically restructured and the finished product ( quality of grads ) would rise enormously. I say it's time to privatize education completely, from Principals to custodians.
There should be no raises in the public sector until the government can balance the budget and the province can regain the majority of jobs lost over the last 10 years. You know ,, a functioning economy, cause we don't have one at the moment yet people cant see it. And before you flame me I work in the public sector , have a decent pension and make a decent wage with excellent benefits and I will survive a little belt tightening. How teachers whom make 20 - 30 THOUSAND a year more than me cant tighten up a bit is actually quite disgusting.
I would say get trained , schooled, degrees, in fields that you know will have jobs available, don't get a B.A. to sell real estate. Why would you spend 4, 5, 6, years at a university to train for a field that has no-low possibility of future employment? If you do, who's fault is that?
You know just on that topic Hunter John.
Look at South West Ontario and the jobs lost there.
The Provinces response? Crickets.
Hand the OPP 8.5% raises, shipping contracts to Chille, then you have others who want more
and more
So many people, from all walks of life are heading for walls. Meanwhile there are those who think...they are special, better and entitled.
/shrug
Its coming. Count on it.
Nurses should be able to find work - maybe not permanent - but fulltime casual hours. The others, sadly, you are correct. It's a tough job market out there and getting into a permanent public sector job is like winning the lottery. My daughter finished her BEng in bio-med engineering and went back to school because the 'working level' for biomed engineers is a masters. With only her BEng, she was competing with grads from community colleges for lab-tech positions.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I didn't' hear him complaining about his job, his choices or his lot in life. He said he's made due with less than teachers expect, and is comfortable doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
You know, it's more than possible that someone can work a job/career/profession and be completely content with what it offers... and not whine and cry for more money and less work, every 18 months - 3 years, like our teachers have trained themselves to do.
Tax payers who have to constantly put up with the ETFO's bullshyte every other year have a right to point out that many others do more, work harder, and receive less compensation... and are able to live entirely comfortable and enjoyable lives... without holding other peoples' children ransom.
Have a younger cousin who found out the exact same thing. Recruiters (did your daughter attend Carleton by any chance?) did a really good job selling the program and the employment prospects... unfortunately the reality of the industry is very different indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Oh..... You are so right and I ain't talking about the teachers... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
The entire automotive industry has been forced to radically alter how they do business with the unions by closing inefficient operations and consolidating others right here in Ontario. The net result has been radical reductions in pay and benefits for staff and job eliminations across the board. Among other things,this has also led to more successful business ventures and product advances unheard of even 10 years ago. The Government needs to take a lesson from the private sector and do the same thing. As a retired autoworker and union member,I abhor the fact that it came to that,but,with 20/20 hindsight,it was absolutely necessary because the alternative would have been absolutely unavoidable and much,much worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Which was my point. The unions made domestic cars uncompetitive and the company's were on the hook for huge legacy/pension obligations. It forced them out of the country with all the trickle down service and parts business with it. This lost employment will never return in our lifetimes. There is a breaking point that unions seem to ignore. What happened in the auto sector will happen in the PS. Common sense would have prevented it.
Well, its not an issue now. Harper just promised $2.6B to Toronto. Now Kathleen can use that money to pay the teachers. No fuss.
Other than my obvious sarcasm above, I don't have anything to offer on this thread. No matter what is said at the end of the day the teachers will continue to get their money and the taxpayers will have to pay it.
Unfortunately 2018 can't come soon enough - but of course that is a slim hope that the voters will be smart enough to put her to the curb. Depsite that, we will be paying these bills for decades.
Thats very true Fatri.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
And something many forget. Are "teachers" or their Unions part of the problem? Yep, they are.
But theres a lot more to it.
"regardless" at least in my mind and this to, can likely be laid at the Unions feet.
Everyone fights to protect their own kingdoms, or expand them…And thus nothing really gets done, or its the low hanging fruit that get targeted. See Nurses, Drs (non unionized), the MNR and others.
Even now, occasionally you see Smokey (OPSEU) fighting with others because he saw this coming. Have to at least give him some credit.
Other than giving the Unions the boot, I "don't know" what the answers are.
Over all….total compensation eats more than 50% of the provinces revenue. The entire "debate" or Ping match about Pensions is well known, well documented….and even every politician at every level be it Provincial or Federal knows they are way too rich….And change is needed.
Yet, there are those who say…well go back to school, blame yourself for not being educated or a good enough paying job, or picking the wrong fields, or….XYZ.
Debt servicing…another 10%
Private is taking it on the chin
Many are getting pummelled by rising taxes and cost of living.
It can only get worse.
Mass layoffs?
Wage reductions?
THis year the province has limited spending growth in healthcare to 1%
REally? Last I checked they blame MH for everything despite doing nothing themselves for 14 years to fix anything. Many problems are worse or growing (wait times), many things have been delisted etc, etc, etc.
Hmmm healthcare vs teachers and classroom sizes or healthcare vs …..
This year, we are selling of Hydro One ("to pay for infrastructure")…
Hmmm infrastructure or improving economic outlook/prospectes and jobs which helps everyone..versus…..
See also many kids with debt up to their eyeballs and worthless pieces of paper.
We know healthcare and associated cost expected to explode with Boomers..Drug plans? Pharmaceuticals let alone sooooooo much more??
We know many people don't have adequate savings
We know most don't have Pensions
Many are predicting housing markets to correct or crash ( what do people rely on these days for retirement? Atleast those without Pensions and many with?)
Some day Interest rates will rise as well.
But I guess at least on this topic its soooooooo much more important.
Well at least maybe those that are teachers will be able to help their elderly parents
What about people that can't because they getting pummelled.
Whats the price per month these days for decent retirement communities?
$5000/month?
Do the math.
/tries to picture an Ontario in 10-20yrs when we are supporting so many, or getting hammered by those social cost……
Than trying to fix big problems before……
2300.00 a month ( private room), for the best city of TO. run, long term care home, and if you do not have the money the gov. will make up the diff between the cost, and your total pension checks.
University of Guelph - which is supposed to be top-of-the province in that regard. She worked at the heart institute last summer with some Carleton grads and found that their program was far more skewed towards biochemistry and lesser so toward engineering. Carleton also has a problem with programs getting watered down to accommodate recent immigrants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
Theres a few here in Durham G that are well north of that. But you can see the problem.
In lets say 10-15 years its an average of $4,500 for decent.
The gov't aka us pick up the tab.
For that, meds, all the addition healthcare practitioners that are going to be required…Which also means less money for roads, or this or that or Teachers or Nurses…or
Oh, crap theres no money because Pensions are so rich, and total compensation and this, that the other….and "teachers" or XYZ..
So great, not only are people "today" finding it near impossible to save for their own (unless they have one)……now they will need to pick up the tab for the Boomers who don't have them and…..
Lets just hammer tax payers more…which in part is creating the problems.??????
Kind of hard to save $$ when taxation takes more than 50% of your income. And you lose more to that, than your spend on housing/food (mortgage/bills/utilities/etc)….and somehow also have to find 2 nickels for a rainy day (lets use the credit line) let alone retirement.
Meanwhile over in PS…….
job security
good to great benefits
better pay (broad brush strokes, won't hold true everywhere)
Pensions
We are heading for a wall, add compounding problems potentially with Interest rates and any more downturns, or housing crashes (Its well known a lot of boomers won't be leaving much for their kids as is)….or that those without Pensions…..See the trend towards reverse mortgages and other things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
ROFLMBO My laugh for the day! Thanks.
Wynne is borrowing more money to pay interest on the debt that has doubled under Liberal rule. She is selling basic and strategic infrastructure like Hydo to fund.....Infrastructure????
What she is doing is pawning everything she can to payback the teacher's union who have provided her with the best job in Ontario. She is exposing all of Ontario tax/ratepayers to unrestricted rate hikes and no auditor oversight to pay for transit in Toronto. She has proven to be completely oblivious to everybody except the loan sharks ( OPSEU, Teachers) she owes her career to.
I hope Patrick Brown is studying Ronald Reagan's theory on labor relations. It sure worked for the air controllers. Just sayin'.........