Shortening Up a Big Running Bird dog

I get asked this question a lot. As I've never had to shorten up a dog , my help in answering that question is very limited. I'd like to learn more, so throwing this out for discussion.

for the walking hunter:

What I think I know:

Using an e collar for that purpose is not a good idea ,as you may be correcting the dog when he is on scent etc , which you don't want to do.

Wiser to buy a breed / breeding that suits a closer working style then you don't have to ......................

Some say as long as the dog holds the point until you get there, it doesn't matter how big he runs.


Teaching the dog to turn on command/whistle is the answer.

What works for me is to have the dog respond to my commands. What works for me is a dog that hunts close and will range further when allowed. From a pup I like the dog working close to me. As they mature the range of coverage is increased however they have to know when I call they respond to my command. Never had an issue with the e collar producing a negative response. You should be able to tell the difference between searching and getting "birdy" by the body language. For me if I don't have that contact they have gone to far. Some have said I micro managed the dog but it works for us.

I bought a well bred Brittany. No problem either way. ............:ninja:

My Springer works within close range. But i would like to know if she decides to venture off further what to do .

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

My Springer works within close range. But i would like to know if she decides to venture off further what to do .

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Given that your springer responds to your commands back, over, heel, yada yad. Thing is dogs will be dogs and even the best trained may get tempted to go on their own. That's why I like running with the E collar. If for what ever reason they get it in their head to wander off or just plain ignore your direction than your able to correct that behavior. Honestly rarely use it however when its needed it can be a life saver. For example had an occasion with a young dog came across a porcupine despite being well trained the erg to investigate something new was too much for her was able to halt her before she made contact without that e collar that would of been a serious encounter and saved her a lot of grief.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Given that your springer responds to your commands back, over, heel, yada yad. Thing is dogs will be dogs and even the best trained may get tempted to go on their own. That's why I like running with the E collar. If for what ever reason they get it in their head to wander off or just plain ignore your direction than your able to correct that behavior. Honestly rarely use it however when its needed it can be a life saver. For example had an occasion with a young dog came across a porcupine despite being well trained the erg to investigate something new was too much for her was able to halt her before she made contact without that e collar that would of been a serious encounter and saved her a lot of grief.

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Yes my Springer does wear an e collar because early on in her training she took off on my pro trainer after a pheasant. She now see's an e collar and becomes all business and no play.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

My Springer works within close range. But i would like to know if she decides to venture off further what to do .

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Yes my Springer does wear an e collar because early on in her training she took off on my pro trainer after a pheasant. She now see's an e collar and becomes all business and no play.

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Great so at this stage if she wanders off would be great to have the vibration feature sometimes that's all that's need to refocus at least that's what worked for me.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

My Springer works within close range. But i would like to know if she decides to venture off further what to do .

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I don't think this will be an issue for you as even a "big running" springer will still always be in sight. The turn and stop whistle are the key.

Yes and that is what i do Cass.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Great so at this stage if she wanders off would be great to have the vibration feature sometimes that's all that's need to refocus at least that's what worked for me.

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It also has the vibration feature as well.

Do you guys not need to have your flushing dogs always within gun range?

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Originally Posted by terrym

Do you guys not need to have your flushing dogs always within gun range?

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That's a big 10-4 rubber ducky. I think using an e-collar to keep them in range would be confusing and stressful to the dog. If the dog disobeys the stop or here whistle thats one thing but I don't see how it could be used to keep them within range.

I have never used the e-collar when a bird is in play. Don't want the dog associating birds with corrections. My dog loves wearing his collar. Comes running when he hears it get turned on.

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Originally Posted by Cass

That's a big 10-4 rubber ducky. I think using an e-collar to keep them in range would be confusing and stressful to the dog. If the dog disobeys the stop or here whistle thats one thing but I don't see how it could be used to keep them within range.

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The e collar doesn't keep them in range. The e collar provides correction when needed.

I understand that which is why I said using it for disobeying the stop whistle. I cannot think of any way that would not be confusing to the dog of giving a correction for just "staying in range". But I'm all ears....

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Originally Posted by Cass

I understand that which is why I said using it for disobeying the stop whistle. I cannot think of any way that would not be confusing to the dog of giving a correction for just "staying in range". But I'm all ears....

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There would be no need for correction if the dog is in range. Would be like the whistle around your neck not blown if you don't need the dog to turn right.

I think Sharron's initial question referred to pointing dogs. I might be wrong.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Do you guys not need to have your flushing dogs always within gun range?

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Originally Posted by Grasu200

I think Sharron's initial question referred to pointing dogs. I might be wrong.

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Yes it did

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Originally Posted by Grasu200

I think Sharon's initial question referred to pointing dogs. I might be wrong.

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Always glad to talk about both pointing and flushing dogs in a thread like this. Only annoys me when we are talking about bird dogs ,and someone starts talking their pet rooster. :)

( Actually though, probably no one goes off track more than me . :) )

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Originally Posted by Sharon

Always glad to talk about both pointing and flushing dogs in a thread like this. Only annoys me when we are talking about bird dogs ,and someone starts talking their pet rooster. :)

( Actually though, probably no one goes off track more than me . :) )

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Realistically, a "big running" flusher is just a poorly trained flusher. This thread is about pointers.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Realistically, a "big running" flusher is just a poorly trained flusher. This thread is about pointers.

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Seems you really don't know the purpose or use of an e collar.

Or i don't rely on a tool to make a trained dog. This isn't even a discussion for a flushing breed

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Seems you really don't know the purpose or use of an e collar.

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Actually Cass knows more than most on here.

"a 'big running flusher is just a poorly trained flusher" quote . I agree.

I'm very cautious about using the e collar correction unless I can clearly see the dog , he is disobeying what I know he knows and/or a bird isn't in the picture. Imo more harm has been done to dogs through the incorrect use of e collars then any other training error - except maybe so much hacking at the dog that his independence is harmed.

If I had a need to shorten up a dog which I never have , I would teach the dog to change direction on a vibration or whistle.

I wish Ugo would join in the discussion as he often? gets a dog to train that the owner wishes to have shortened up to a slow - paced hunt.
The owner has bought a well bred - fireball but...........



edited : to keep the peace

A correction for something that the dog doesn't understand is not an effective correction. An e-collar is a tool. An effective one if used properly, but detrimental if used improperly. It appears we have a difference of opinion finsfurfeathers and that is okay. As I understand it, pointing dog people use e-collars differently than retrievers and spaniels. You're entitled to your opinions.

The principles are the same though for all 3 kinds of dogs.

From one of my favourite mags.:

32 principles:

http://www.gundogmag.com/gear-accessories/collar_tips/

This sounds like more of a discussion about e-collars than effective range.
All-too-often, I hear, "No, no, my dog points steady, no problem but he works too far." That is my first warning that the dog is not reliably broke the way it should be.
In my opinion, a functional closer pattern for a flusher is critical. It is one of the main components of handling as I see it. Once I have a pattern on my flusher, a BIG part of the job is completed (if it's a well bred flusher).
Range is not as critical for the hunting dog as the terrain and the application of the species being hunted. 200 yards on the prairies might still be effective while many find that down-right renegade in the grouse woods.
I like to build co-operation by virtue of rewarding success (...this is what works vs this does not work) which is the result of foundation training followed up by experience afield.
For a flusher to be effective it must work to the gun. For a pointer, it must work to the species/habitat.
I am often surprised at how many pointing dog owners insist that their pointers work to the gun by a flushing breed's definition. This is most often supported by their past experiences with poorly trained pointing dogs that don't hold point or do not have experience with wild birds.
Yes, a pointing dog can run too big if after stabbing a find, the time taken to locate and flush results in an unproductive because the bird(s) has departed. A pointing dog that lolly-gags around at 40 yards is not likely to be productive on wild birds for a number of reasons. Perhaps it can handle pen-raised birds but not wild birds. An effective pointing dog MUST have pace. This, and a nose to go with said pace is what hammers wily birds into the ground so that the hunter has a reasonable amount of time to approach and flush.
Keep in mind that the most challenging part of approaching a pointing dog in the grouse woods is that where you would typically find grouse, there are a healthy number of blow-downs, dead-falls, very dense cover. In this example, range isn't as much an issue as approaching quietly enough to make the closing sequence successful. I have often prematurely flushed well-pointed grouse that my dog has nailed simply because, hard as I tried, I sounded like a derailed freight train on the approach!
Most often, folk want to apply numbers to effective range - 50 yards for grouse, 100 for woodcock, 200 for Huns, etc. (Sort of like how some shot-gunners want to know how much lead they should use for the birds they are hunting. Both are of no use.) This has very little value because each and every situation is unique unto itself. There are too many other variables that are salient parts of this equation to apply a fixed value!
My setter handles at roughly 200 yards on either side of very dense northern Ontario grouse woods. Much more than that on the prairies. Most folk would consider this extreme. Fact is, she handles like she is on a string with VERY little input from me. She finds AND handles many grouse and provides a large number of opportunities for me. I long-ago discovered that Emma figured out this:
The further from me she was (within reason) the more successful she was on pegging her finds and getting rewarded with a bird to retrieve.
If you apply the logic, it is not a leap. Like I said, try as I may, I still make lots of noise negotiating productive grouse cover. Her rangy, stealthy, fast paced, wide spread application proves VERY productive. Her owner - not so much so. :)
If you are working a young dog, plant your birds so that the range your dog finds birds at will serve you on your preferred quarry. They are programmable in this regard. Use similar habitat that your preferred game birds utilize for training/planting in, and let that pointing dog do it's job, which unlike a flusher, is to use it's nose, experience and instinctsto go to likely objectives rather than a wind-shield wiper pattern and finally, allow her/him to take you to birds rather than the other way around.
There is no harm in patterning your pointing dog if this is the style of hunting you believe will serve you and what you hunt most however understand that with experience, your dog will learn what is productive cover. He/she will also deduct the most effective AND productive range as well as the course to be successful along with your support.

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Originally Posted by Cass

. I cannot think of any way that would not be confusing to the dog of giving a correction for just "staying in range". But I'm all ears....

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Originally Posted by Cass

Realistically, a "big running" flusher is just a poorly trained flusher. This thread is about pointers.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Or i don't rely on a tool to make a trained dog. This isn't even a discussion for a flushing breed

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Originally Posted by Sharon

. Let's discuss without putting people down .


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Hey Sharon not putting anyone down.
Simply stating the proper use of an e collar and the benefits and advantage. For someone to wonder why you would correct for doing the requested action indicates a fundamental flaw in their thinking. Yes it is a learning tool especially at distance and can be utilized effectively to correct any breed. Part of training is the use of a tool be it a leash, lead, or e collar than repetition and consistency. Thing is it gets harder the further out the dog is.

I would like to apologize for the very long-winded response. It can be difficult to cover all the variables when answering something that addresses a wide-spread demographic. Again.........sorry.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

I would like to apologize for the very long-winded response. It can be difficult to cover all the variables when answering something that addresses a wide-spread demographic. Again.........sorry.

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Think your response is spot on. I've always felt a dogs work should reflect the desire of the hunter. Think the hang up here is Big range means different things to different people. For me doesn't matter how far a dog goes its response to my commands is what matters. The dog should respond the same at 20 yards as at 100 yards.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I wish Ugo would join in the discussion as he often? gets a dog to train that the owner wishes to have shortened up to a slow - paced hunt.
The owner has bought a well bred - fireball but...........

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This is a case where you get what you payed for. If you have purchased a fireball think the only thing will help will be time. As for all time slows us all down. I'm one who enjoys a close working slower paced dog. Yes there are disadvantages but its what I like. To achieve this I work with the pup as soon as it can in the field. Moving slowly letting them get their legs in the bush. If the pup has to run to keep up I'm moving to fast. This way I feel that I'm instilling the pace I would like them to work at.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

This sounds like more of a discussion about e-collars than effective range.
All-too-often, I hear, "No, no, my dog points steady, no problem but he works too far." That is my first warning that the dog is not reliably broke the way it should be.
In my opinion, a functional closer pattern for a flusher is critical. It is one of the main components of handling as I see it. Once I have a pattern on my flusher, a BIG part of the job is completed (if it's a well bred flusher).
Range is not as critical for the hunting dog as the terrain and the application of the species being hunted. 200 yards on the prairies might still be effective while many find that down-right renegade in the grouse woods.
I like to build co-operation by virtue of rewarding success (...this is what works vs this does not work) which is the result of foundation training followed up by experience afield.
For a flusher to be effective it must work to the gun. For a pointer, it must work to the species/habitat.
I am often surprised at how many pointing dog owners insist that their pointers work to the gun by a flushing breed's definition. This is most often supported by their past experiences with poorly trained pointing dogs that don't hold point or do not have experience with wild birds.
Yes, a pointing dog can run too big if after stabbing a find, the time taken to locate and flush results in an unproductive because the bird(s) has departed. A pointing dog that lolly-gags around at 40 yards is not likely to be productive on wild birds for a number of reasons. Perhaps it can handle pen-raised birds but not wild birds. An effective pointing dog MUST have pace. This, and a nose to go with said pace is what hammers wily birds into the ground so that the hunter has a reasonable amount of time to approach and flush.
Keep in mind that the most challenging part of approaching a pointing dog in the grouse woods is that where you would typically find grouse, there are a healthy number of blow-downs, dead-falls, very dense cover. In this example, range isn't as much an issue as approaching quietly enough to make the closing sequence successful. I have often prematurely flushed well-pointed grouse that my dog has nailed simply because, hard as I tried, I sounded like a derailed freight train on the approach!
Most often, folk want to apply numbers to effective range - 50 yards for grouse, 100 for woodcock, 200 for Huns, etc. (Sort of like how some shot-gunners want to know how much lead they should use for the birds they are hunting. Both are of no use.) This has very little value because each and every situation is unique unto itself. There are too many other variables that are salient parts of this equation to apply a fixed value!
My setter handles at roughly 200 yards on either side of very dense northern Ontario grouse woods. Much more than that on the prairies. Most folk would consider this extreme. Fact is, she handles like she is on a string with VERY little input from me. She finds AND handles many grouse and provides a large number of opportunities for me. I long-ago discovered that Emma figured out this:
The further from me she was (within reason) the more successful she was on pegging her finds and getting rewarded with a bird to retrieve.
If you apply the logic, it is not a leap. Like I said, try as I may, I still make lots of noise negotiating productive grouse cover. Her rangy, stealthy, fast paced, wide spread application proves VERY productive. Her owner - not so much so. :)
If you are working a young dog, plant your birds so that the range your dog finds birds at will serve you on your preferred quarry. They are programmable in this regard. Use similar habitat that your preferred game birds utilize for training/planting in, and let that pointing dog do it's job, which unlike a flusher, is to use it's nose, experience and instinctsto go to likely objectives rather than a wind-shield wiper pattern and finally, allow her/him to take you to birds rather than the other way around.
There is no harm in patterning your pointing dog if this is the style of hunting you believe will serve you and what you hunt most however understand that with experience, your dog will learn what is productive cover. He/she will also deduct the most effective AND productive range as well as the course to be successful along with your support.

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you should seriously consider writing a book

I've told him that, but he's busy training dogs.:)
( saving that post Ugo. Thanks.))

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Originally Posted by Ugo

I would like to apologize for the very long-winded response. It can be difficult to cover all the variables when answering something that addresses a wide-spread demographic. Again.........sorry.

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Those were compliments you got, not a comment of a long post. :)

Ugo always has the best answers and most of all Polite !

When he takes the time to share advice like that I take notes. Many others here should too.

There's a difference of opinion often on whether an e collar correction should be used to keep a dog in the range you want. ( after conditioning to that request with the e collar of course). Should it be used for that purpose?

I assume a flusher is close enough to respond to a voice command to stay in the range you have trained for , but what about a big running pointing breed?


Thoughts on this ? Your opinion too Ugo please.

If my dog is within whistle range and not responding to it "and not working a bird" I have no issue giving him a tap. He knows damn well what the whistle means. I would never tap him if he is out of sight though. He is quite predictable when he catches scent so I'm comfortable making the distinction. His pace changes and his head drops before he locks up on point. He wears the collar every time he leaves the house but very rarely needs a correction anymore. As for range I have no problem with him "Zamboning" a field. It's what I pay him to do. In tight woodcock & grouse cover he is never out of beeper range so if he goes on point I hear him. In open fields he seems to limit himself to 200 yds before checking in and I like that pace.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I've told him that, but he's busy training dogs.:)
( saving that post Ugo. Thanks.))

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it's hard to find good books nowadays. last month I picked up books about dog training from the 1920s and 1930s. sure the "techniques" are "dated", but a book conveys so much more than a post, blog or a youtube video ever can.
Risking I sound half a century older than I am, I'd wish there are current (and authentic) books out there!

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Originally Posted by terrym

If my dog is within whistle range and not responding to it "and not working a bird" I have no issue giving him a tap. He knows damn well what the whistle means. I would never tap him if he is out of sight though. He is quite predictable when he catches scent so I'm comfortable making the distinction. His pace changes and his head drops before he locks up on point. He wears the collar every time he leaves the house but very rarely needs a correction anymore. As for range I have no problem with him "Zamboning" a field. It's what I pay him to do. In tight woodcock & grouse cover he is never out of beeper range so if he goes on point I hear him. In open fields he seems to limit himself to 200 yds before checking in and I like that pace.

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Could not of said it better. Again you are not keeping them in range with the e collar you are reinforcing the back command.

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Originally Posted by terrym

If my dog is within whistle range and not responding to it "and not working a bird" I have no issue giving him a tap. He knows damn well what the whistle means. I would never tap him if he is out of sight though. He is quite predictable when he catches scent so I'm comfortable making the distinction. His pace changes and his head drops before he locks up on point. He wears the collar every time he leaves the house but very rarely needs a correction anymore. As for range I have no problem with him "Zamboning" a field. It's what I pay him to do. In tight woodcock & grouse cover he is never out of beeper range so if he goes on point I hear him. In open fields he seems to limit himself to 200 yds before checking in and I like that pace.

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Well said!

( I'm 70 next year Wafrudnir , and started training bird dogs in 1995. In 2000started using the book Point! by Horace Lyttle . Would use it again to day.)

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Originally Posted by terrym

If my dog is within whistle range and not responding to it "and not working a bird" I have no issue giving him a tap. He knows damn well what the whistle means. I would never tap him if he is out of sight though. He is quite predictable when he catches scent so I'm comfortable making the distinction. His pace changes and his head drops before he locks up on point. He wears the collar every time he leaves the house but very rarely needs a correction anymore. As for range I have no problem with him "Zamboning" a field. It's what I pay him to do. In tight woodcock & grouse cover he is never out of beeper range so if he goes on point I hear him. In open fields he seems to limit himself to 200 yds before checking in and I like that pace.

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Excellent post.


( I'm 70 next year Waftrudnir and started training bird dogs in 1997 .
Eventually used the book "Point! " by Horace Lyttle in 2000. Would use it again to day.)

Thank you kindly everyone! That is very considerate of you.
Yes, an e-collar can be used to reinforce the well known commands that are disregarded, be they recall under testy situations such as being lured by a playful coyote in season, or a total disregard for directional requests. When, how, and where are something you must be very sure about.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Do you guys not need to have your flushing dogs always within gun range?

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My lab is used for upland as much as she's used for waterfowl.

When out doing training, I started out using a check cord, and would employ it with the words "Hunt Close"....she would then understand that I wanted her no further than about 20M out front. Typically she now works in the 20-30M range, but at a quick whistle, she stops, and looks to me...if I say close...she then closes the gap a bit....this helps when she starts getting "birdy".

Bluebulldog, that sounds practical because I find there's nothing better than a flusher on ditch parrots. Verbals are not something I use a lot of especially when grouse hunting as these twitchy birds will make a hasty exit before your dog gets 1/2 a chance.
Flushers are my favourite pheasant dogs when trained correctly. Even my flushers are handled VERY quietly. Some pheasants put their escape in overdrive when they hear you coming which by-the-way, your dog can detect. This makes the dog increase his/her pace and range which makes you caution the dog verbally, etc. etc. I'm sure you understand.
This is a good example of where I might use an e-collar on a flusher that starts to unravel because I don't want to increase the pheasant's odds by speaking. That's just me and how I hunt. I don't like bells, or beepers that go every 10 or so seconds. I don't like verbally handling my dog unless it is a last resort and I never use a whistle. In fact, with my many years of hunting, I have accumulated an unpalatable inner response - makes my hair go up on my neck. If you are using your whistle, your dog is making a mistake.
How many times do you want to condone this mistake?
Answer: Every time you blow the whistle.
In time, you find yourself blowing the whistle rather frequently. Hence, the hair standing up on my neck. :)

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Originally Posted by Ugo

Bluebulldog, that sounds practical because I find there's nothing better than a flusher on ditch parrots. Verbals are not something I use a lot of especially when grouse hunting as these twitchy birds will make a hasty exit before your dog gets 1/2 a chance.
Flushers are my favourite pheasant dogs when trained correctly. Even my flushers are handled VERY quietly. Some pheasants put their escape in overdrive when they hear you coming which by-the-way, your dog can detect. This makes the dog increase his/her pace and range which makes you caution the dog verbally, etc. etc. I'm sure you understand.
This is a good example of where I might use an e-collar on a flusher that starts to unravel because I don't want to increase the pheasant's odds by speaking. That's just me and how I hunt. I don't like bells, or beepers that go every 10 or so seconds. I don't like verbally handling my dog unless it is a last resort and I never use a whistle. In fact, with my many years of hunting, I have accumulated an unpalatable inner response - makes my hair go up on my neck. If you are using your whistle, your dog is making a mistake.
How many times do you want to condone this mistake?
Answer: Every time you blow the whistle.
In time, you find yourself blowing the whistle rather frequently. Hence, the hair standing up on my neck. :)

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Actually Ugo...I don't whistle with her, I use a sharp hiss through my teeth, and hand signals when out in the field. One sharp hiss, and two for her to close the gap, but it's much harder to describe...LOL. Come out hunting with us...You'll see what I mean.

It was primarily check cord and verbals when starting out....but she hunts well now, I really don't need to say much at all. If she hears my boots stop moving, she usually stops, and looks at me for instruction.

NOTHING....in this world beats hunting over a good dog.

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

NOTHING....in this world beats hunting over a good dog.

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Can't wait for summer to be over so we can get back to it.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

Bluebulldog, that sounds practical because I find there's nothing better than a flusher on ditch parrots. Verbals are not something I use a lot of especially when grouse hunting as these twitchy birds will make a hasty exit before your dog gets 1/2 a chance.
Flushers are my favourite pheasant dogs when trained correctly. Even my flushers are handled VERY quietly. Some pheasants put their escape in overdrive when they hear you coming which by-the-way, your dog can detect. This makes the dog increase his/her pace and range which makes you caution the dog verbally, etc. etc. I'm sure you understand.
This is a good example of where I might use an e-collar on a flusher that starts to unravel because I don't want to increase the pheasant's odds by speaking. That's just me and how I hunt. I don't like bells, or beepers that go every 10 or so seconds. I don't like verbally handling my dog unless it is a last resort and I never use a whistle. In fact, with my many years of hunting, I have accumulated an unpalatable inner response - makes my hair go up on my neck. If you are using your whistle, your dog is making a mistake.
How many times do you want to condone this mistake?
Answer: Every time you blow the whistle.
In time, you find yourself blowing the whistle rather frequently. Hence, the hair standing up on my neck. :)

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Like hearing the way others hunt. For me its a totally opposite way. Love listening to the bell on my dog its tempo tells me exactly what they are doing especially when I intermittently loose sight of them in the woodcock bush. Like the contact I have with them as I don't feel their making a mistake just working the way I want at that time. Either way I guess if your dog is responding to your commands and working the way you like then too you got a well trained partner.

What I like is to hunt my dog with a bell and my ecollar has a beeper. I set the collar to beep only on point so unless he's on a bird then no irritating beeping sound. We went through a few bells as he's tough on them but Tim Tufts was selling good ones a couple years ago and unless I lose it my guess it will last as long as the dog will. I actually like the sound of the bell while he hunts.

I like hearing the whistle of the wind, the sound of the leaves rustling, song birds chirping, crows, frogs, a river rushing on it's merry way.
Whistles, beepers, and hacking poison's the experience for me. Again, just my take aside from the increased productivity it provides on wild birds. Silence is truly golden!
That said, if you are enjoying yourself, don't change a thing!

I hunt my dog especially on grouse with the collar on beeper mode only. I think it makes a difference With not spooking birds off in the distance. With woodcock I don't think it matters.

I have been doing this a long time AND my setter is 11 1/2 years old so, keep this in mind. The thing is, when you hunt your dog completely silently and you know where she is (roughly) and she just knows where you are, it is something truly amazing. The entire experience transcends you. It affords you the opportunity to experience upland hunting at a level so few have enjoyed. It's hard to put into words.
Don't get me wrong,. I have used a bell but only in competition where dogs are run in a brace and time is a critical factor - a dedicated application.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

I have been doing this a long time AND my setter is 11 1/2 years old so, keep this in mind. The thing is, when you hunt your dog completely silently and you know where she is (roughly) and she just knows where you are, it is something truly amazing. The entire experience transcends you. It affords you the opportunity to experience upland hunting at a level so few have enjoyed. It's hard to put into words.
Don't get me wrong,. I have used a bell but only in competition where dogs are run in a brace and time is a critical factor - a dedicated application.

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Still there's nothing wrong with hunting loud and proud. When you and your dog can work together to put the birds in a shootable position that's upland hunting at its best...at least to me.

To go out targeting woodcock one week and not sweeting bumpinging a grouse


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Because you'll just get them the next time.
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We're talking two very diverse almost unrelated experiences Fin.
Like we say, ".....something for everybody."

Hunting loud and proud might get you some birds where you live Fin but you can leave the shotgun at home if you try that around here.
Heck, I know chaps that will casually take over 30 grouse per season - no dog and with a single shot .410! The point is it isn't a reflection of their dog, their shooting skills, or their hunting style.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

Hunting loud and proud might get you some birds where you live Fin but you can leave the shotgun at home if you try that around here.
Heck, I know chaps that will casually take over 30 grouse per season - no dog and with a single shot .410! The point is it isn't a reflection of their dog, their shooting skills, or their hunting style.

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Curious where "here" is and if that's the case why would I even want to hunt there. Guess not only hunting the wrong way but seems the wrong birds now. Never really had a problem with birds in the 1 to 1 1/2 hour drive from where I live. Even some days have to use the .410 as they are sitting to tight as in the first picture.

Fin, "here" is most of southern Ontario.

Gentlemen
You are both valuable contributors to this board and I for one continue to learn a lot from both of you.

Obviously you are both successful within the context of what you want to achieve in the field and woods.

Bell, beeper or none of the above it works for you and most importantly like most of us you cherish the time we spend passionately pursuing this game.

Personally when I hunt with and without a bell with no rhyme or reason since I have no idea how a grouse thinks.

I appreciate and value both of your contributions here to this thread and others but this one may have run its course. Let's just agree we all do things differently and as long as we are promoting and enjoying our passion as good sportsmen then you are both correct.

Thanks again and I'm looking forward to your contributions and help on how I can find more of these challenging birds in southern Ontario.

It's almost September!

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Originally Posted by Ugo

Fin, "here" is most of southern Ontario.

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Great than I don't have to leave my gun at home as those grouse in the picture came 20 minutes south of Orillia.

Yes, it appears it has run it's course Joe16 and thank you for that.

My pleasure do NOT stop posting please I'm learning a little every time

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Originally Posted by joe16

My pleasure do NOT stop posting please I'm learning a little every time

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X10.............