Hunting trophies: Delta, United and American ban transport

Saw this coming....

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Delta, United and American Airlines have banned the shipment of big-game trophies on flights after the illegal killing of Cecil the lion in Zimbabwe.


The airlines announced that they would no longer transport lion, rhinoceros, leopard, elephant or buffalo remains.

They have not, however, given official reasons for their announcements.

Delta flies direct to a number of African cities and was subjected to an online petition to ban such shipments.

American Airlines and United fly to fewer sub-Saharan cities than Delta, but United said in a tweet its decision to stop carrying trophies was "effective immediately".


United spokesman Charles Hobart said: "We felt it made sense to do so."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33767771

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You can add Air Canada to the list, they announced it as well today. Interestingly enough South African Airways did the same about a month ago as well as Lufthansa prior to "Cecil" and then reversed their decision:

http://www.africahunting.com/attachm...ent-png.45541/

Air Canada news: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/08...n_7934250.html

What a bunch of frigging pussies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well thats terrible

"A company spokesman says the airline will no longer carry trophies from lions, leopards, elephants, rhinoceros and water buffaloes."

I guess that means they'll still carry African Cape Buffalo?

I'm pretty sure Fedex will still carry it as cargo....they don't have to keep the fickle flying public happy :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Saw this coming....

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MikePal

Do you think it really matters to those guys that can afford $50,000 for the permit.

Most of them fly down in their own planes!

Also .. those airlines are only hurting the countries where those safaris occur!

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

MikePal

Do you think it really matters to those guys that can afford $50,000 for the permit.

Most of them fly down in their own planes!

Also .. those airlines are only hurting the countries where those safaris occur!

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SK33T3R, I understand the 'trophys' ship separately, after some preliminary work is done on the hide. So unless they send their private jet back, then it is shipped by cargo.

Your right, silly PR move that really affects no one.

Shipments can be done one of two ways. Fully taxidermied, usually how i ship or dipped and packed, which is a way of treating the hide in order that the taxidermy work can be done here at home. Taxidermy is usually cheaper in Africa but then the crate costs more, so the two ways of shipping end up costing roughly the same. The guys that get hurt are the ordinary guys that go over and do plains game safaris which are very comparable to doing a guided hunt in North America. Less airlines carrying trophies home means more competition and higher prices. I have a shipment enroute through Istanbul on Turkish airlines due to the current situation, so there are ways around it. Also lots of guys use sea freight, making the airlines a non issue. Hopefully they will follow SAA lead and once presented with the facts reverse their decision as well.

Just bought some water buffalo hamburger from the Buff Store south of us....Good thing we were able to drive home.....

In African countries,like everywhere else,the one thing that will get their attention is disappearing revenue. Cooler heads will prevail,I'm sure.

How long before this includes Elk, Moose, mule deer, white tail, caribou etc on domestic flights

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Originally Posted by B Wilson

How long before this includes Elk, Moose, mule deer, white tail, caribou etc on domestic flights

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Not to worry. FedEx and UPS would only be too happy to take up the slack. Business is business.LOL

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Your right, silly PR move that really affects no one.

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victimless?

I don't know, why don't we ask the Inuit about the ban on Seal Products.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Not to worry. FedEx and UPS would only be too happy to take up the slack. Business is business.LOL

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I agree. There will aways be somebody willing to have your business that others give up.

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Originally Posted by B Wilson

How long before this includes Elk, Moose, mule deer, white tail, caribou etc on domestic flights

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B wilson i sat beside a moose three months ago on US air and a caribou last week on air canada. Trust me they should both be banned.

Knee jerk reactions make me giggle...

Everyone can sit and giggle and shake their heads and pretend that this means nothing, but I'm of a different opinion. This represents a major PR coup by the anti-hunting crowd. It shows that cowardly corporations - like politicians - have caved to the fanatics. We are only one tiny little step away from having the major carriers banning the transport of rifles on their flights.

Hunters have got to wake up and realize that our sport/past-time/recreation is dying an all to quick death of a thousand cuts. And the main reason is our own laziness and complacency.

Here is the contact info that I copied from a post on the Canadian Landowner blog. I am writing a letter to Air Canada this morning telling them that I regret using one of their flights last week to fly home from Saskatchewan, and I will assure them that I will not repeat the mistake in the future.

Air Canada - Customer Relations
PO Box 64239,
RPO Thorncliffe
Calgary, AB, Canada
T2K 6J7
Fax: 1-866-584-0380
1-403-569-5333

And here is the email link (part way down check box that says you were flying)

http://help-aircanada.com/aircanada-...ue.do?lang=ENU

Pretty much Big Bear.

When what's her name posted the ill advised images of her Giraffe, the outcry gained quite a bit of traction. Exactly what the activist wanted. A rose by any other name is still a rose. The public shaming (read bullying) has only intensified.

The airlines are either acting in self defense (not wanting to become targets themselves) or are capitalizing on it, in feel good moves.
I happened to notice within minutes of AC making the announcement a second "ad" from AC about some other "oh look at us".
funny that.

You rarely "win" with knock out punches. You "win", one little battle at a time.

As far "bans" go.
One has to wonder if in the future the airlines might ban domestic flights with trophies (Elk, Mule, Other) etc. The EU has banned seal imports.........

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Originally Posted by Bigbear

. I am writing a letter to Air Canada this morning telling them that I regret using one of their flights last week to fly home from Saskatchewan, and I will assure them that I will not repeat the mistake in the future.

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You do know Air Canada doesn't give a squat whether you fly with them or not....they never have...LOL..

Hunters amount to only about 3% of the population...in insignificant number for a carrier like them.

Why a hunter would ever darken their doorway in the first place has me amazed...they want $50 to 'allow' you to check your firearm.

Stick with Westjet...a Hunter friendly airline.

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Originally Posted by JBen

One has to wonder if in the future the airlines might ban domestic flights with trophies (Elk, Mule, Other) etc. The EU has banned seal imports.........

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Just creates another business opportunity;

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Hunters and others looking to ship lion, leopard, elephant, rhinoceros and buffalo heads and other big-game trophies across the world still have options available, even as Delta Air Lines, American Airlines and Air Canada announced this week that they will no longer allow such cargo on their planes.

Shipments of hunting trophies are still allowed by United Parcel Service, a UPS spokeswoman told The Washington Post on Tuesday, noting that the global shipping giant follows U.S. and international laws, not public opinion, in determining what it will and won’t ship.

“There are many items shipped in international commerce that may spark controversy,” UPS public relations director Susan Rosenberg wrote in an e-mail. “The views on what is appropriate for shipment are as varied as the audiences that hold these views.

“UPS takes many factors under consideration in establishing its shipping policies, including the legality of the contents and additional procedures required to ensure compliance. We avoid making judgments on the appropriateness of the contents. All shipments must comply with all laws, including any relevant documentation from the shipper required in the origin and destination location of the shipments.”

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Originally Posted by Bigbear

We are only one tiny little step away from having the major carriers banning the transport of rifles on their flights.

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No, we aren't.

Airlines could ban firearms from baggage with or without banning animal trophies. These things are unrelated. The idea that banning animal trophies somehow makes it easier to ban firearms, or makes such a ban more likely, is pure hogwash, a slippery slope argument.

A ban on animal trophies from the African big 5 does not represent a cowardly airline caving to the pressure of a tiny pressure group; it represents the board of that airline sharing the widespread public opinion that these particular animals ought not to be hunted. People who are otherwise in favour of hunting hold that view, as do some hunters. It does not follow that the airline is somehow more likely to ban firearms from checked baggage, or intends to do so, or would cave to pressure from a small, outlying pressure group to do so.

This only affects people who go hunting in Africa -- and it hardly affects them, as they have other options. There's no reason for us all to run in circles squealing that the sky is falling.

And yet

Cancellation of Sportsman show
CBC cancelling CiTR.
EU banning seal imports
AC banning trophy imports
Anti's are going after "Trophy" Grizzly hunts
If you visit Air Canada's website page Welsh, many many are asking AC when they will cancel Polar Bear, Bears and others.

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Thank you Air Canada, It's a good start... Next, please ban big game trophies from Canada.

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https://www.facebook.com/aircanada?fref=ts


I tend not to fall into the sky is falling crowd, however there's a disturbing

Trend.

Can we find examples of the opposite?

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Originally Posted by JBen

Can we find examples of the opposite?

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- Introduction of Elk hunting in Ontario in 2011
- Disappearance of the long-gun registry - we will see what happens after the next election
- Return of the spring bear hunt in Ontario - we will see what happens in 2016
- Bill c-42 - we will see what happens after the next election

Each of these are examples are trends in the other direction however you will note the caveats as their permanence is questionable.

I doubt Bearskin Airlines or Air Creebec will participate in any of these bans.

And given whats going on and given the Liberals penchance to go with just thing kind of stuff
gea
wind
gas plants
more.

Liking the odds the Spring hunt will expand? or continue?

Again, no don't think the sky is falling, but ground swells of public opinion and waves can and do..And its not as though the more extreme animal lovers, activist haven't won these battles and they are going after Grizzly Hunts, Polar Bears (have won a quasi battle with seals).....

The odds of the spring bear hunt continuing are very good. There's no downside for a Liberal government.

just talking about hunting Species (not the anti gun movement, or the Cons introductions).

would tend to agree Welsh. When they first opened it up, the reason for the two year trial was obvious to me.
Two years to test the winds of sentiment (just prior to the next election).. The data they might might hope to glean, over such a short time and with such a limited hunt is near meaningless.

Just saying.......If the winds continue, or more pressure is brought to bear....

Open season on mourning doves would be another example.

ok, so were up to 1 and another that most likely is as much a political ploy that could go either way depending on public sentiment in the south.

Point being, the trend would suggest that the decision makers whether companies or politicians do react to ground swell public opinion.
See Bears, See wolves here.
Seals, Grizzlys are in the sights as are Polars. And I wouldn't be surprised if more come up.

Wasn't there some companies that reacted similiarily (un-related topic/issue) just recently in the states to something else (see also the kerfuffle over Duck Dynasty and dropping them).

Social media is the new "battle ground" imo. Public shaming to get what one wants works.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

You do know Air Canada doesn't give a squat whether you fly with them or not....they never have...LOL..

Hunters amount to only about 3% of the population...in insignificant number for a carrier like them.

Why a hunter would ever darken their doorway in the first place has me amazed...they want $50 to 'allow' you to check your firearm.

Stick with Westjet...a Hunter friendly airline.

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And rabid anti-hunters amount to way less than 3%. The point is, they won this round, didn't they?

With the right amount of pressure, WestJet would fold as quickly as Air Canada.

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Originally Posted by welsh

No, we aren't.

Airlines could ban firearms from baggage with or without banning animal trophies. These things are unrelated. The idea that banning animal trophies somehow makes it easier to ban firearms, or makes such a ban more likely, is pure hogwash, a slippery slope argument.

A ban on animal trophies from the African big 5 does not represent a cowardly airline caving to the pressure of a tiny pressure group; it represents the board of that airline sharing the widespread public opinion that these particular animals ought not to be hunted. People who are otherwise in favour of hunting hold that view, as do some hunters. It does not follow that the airline is somehow more likely to ban firearms from checked baggage, or intends to do so, or would cave to pressure from a small, outlying pressure group to do so.

This only affects people who go hunting in Africa -- and it hardly affects them, as they have other options. There's no reason for us all to run in circles squealing that the sky is falling.

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Rifles and big game trophies are unrelated? Good luck explaining that one to PETA and the rest of the howling crowd.

And, as for hogwash, that's where I've filed your quote about the board of the airline simply sharing public opinion that these animals should not be hunted. It was nothing but a craven reaction calculated to gain favour - in other words, an advertising exercise with the expectation that it would be good for business.

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Originally Posted by Bigbear

And rabid anti-hunters amount to way less than 3%. The point is, they won this round, didn't they?

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In Ontario, those that oppose hunting in any way, shape, or form actually amount to only about 8% of the population, but is almost 3x the numbers of hunters in the province.

Not sure if public opinion on Trophy Hunting/Hunters falls into the category of anti-Hunting. Like was posted earlier, this is a specific aspect of hunting that has caused this public (social) uprising.

Anytime a company decides to refuse business it does so because it won't hurt the bottom line. Like Air Canada's decision, it has negligible impact and they get some PR out of it.

Reminds me of when Chapters/Indigo stop selling hunting magazines....

on topic: I read this morning that the vast majority of taxidermied 'Trophys' from South Africa go out as cargo on ships anyway...this ban really has little impact on the commerce.

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Originally Posted by Bigbear

And rabid anti-hunters amount to way less than 3%. The point is, they won this round, didn't they?

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Your error is to think this is about small numbers of hunters and small numbers of anti-hunters, and that this is about hunting in general. It isn't. This happened because a large majority of the public opposes African big game trophy hunting.

At the same time, the majority of the public does not oppose hunting in general, so there is no significant public pressure to expand this ban. A few postings on a website does not constitute significant public pressure.

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Originally Posted by Bigbear

Rifles and big game trophies are unrelated? Good luck explaining that one to PETA and the rest of the howling crowd.

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It's frankly embarrassing that you don't understand what the slippery slope fallacy is.

"not sure" Welsh.

Wars are won by winning the small seemingly innocuous battles. We have, or most of us should have realized a long time ago that the battles for hunting (vs the animal rights segments) and gun battles (vs the anti gun crowds) are for the middle ground. But how many "hunting rifles" are or have been restricted, banned in recent years.

Quite agree, that "today" they are separate battles in many ways, most ways will remain so for some time. Each time the Anti H/Gs sway public opinion and those who are afraid of it or react to it, such as AC or the EU, or politicians here in Cda or Ont, it erodes some of the middle ground just a wee bit.

A large majority of the public doesn't care about what we/they are doing in their own back yards. The stuff about Cecil is "insane". Pull the heart strings and………….

Either way, quite agree today they are separate battles, issues.
Blurred lines and of late some of the middle ground is eroding.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Either way, quite agree today they are separate battles, issues.
Blurred lines and of late some of the middle ground is eroding.

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Like I found doing research for the Hunter Recruitment thread JBen...recruitment is failing, hunting is declining as the population ages and demographics are changing. Unfortunately, it's not just eroding because of the efforts by the anti's it also eroding by the complacency of hunters.

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Originally Posted by welsh

I don't worry much about whether hunting is going to survive.

It's simply not something I see as important enough to care about, frankly hunting is going to survive in my lifetime, and what happens after that is out of my control.

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Yes, that's right. I am killing hunting through my complacency. I am to blame.

Unfortunately, that doesn't actually demonstrate what you need to demonstrate here to rescue your slippery slope argument from its inherent silliness. You need to establish one of two things to make it valid:
- that banning the transportation of African trophies is a prerequisite to banning the transportation of guns by air, or,
- that banning the transportation of guns by air becomes easier after transporting African trophies is banned.

Since both are false, the argument is bogus. We are not one short step from banning guns from checked baggage.

This is not a black or white thing, right or wrong thing.

"People" do irrational things, especially when emotions get involved. Ever hear the expression.

Fear and greed?

Add politics, PR, grounds swells.

Again, want to stress with respect to airlines I agree, but it would take something special to see that. These little battles being lost, where the ARs and AGs are gaining more and more support.

Children today, tomorrow's
Conservationist
hunters
Voters
CEOs.

Are growing up in cities and are so disconnected from nature, outdoors, hunting.

Don't think the sky is falling either. Do think if we don't start paying attention to social media and how things can be turned against us, or how we can shoot ourselves in the foot.

We will see more things targeted, chipped away at.

The point is, each time something is targeted it is a separate case.

A ban on one thing does not make a ban on any other thing more likely or easier to enact.

:)

Yep. So maybe "we" need to think of ways to win or keep the middle ground.

I've come to the conclusion, that for myself anyways I'm going to "spam" every current "issue" we have in Ont. be it Asian carp, be it bears, be conservation of cold water streams, the lack of COS, funding issues at the MOE/MNR, more.

Who uses FB and social media more than today's kids. I've always been big on teaching kids about the outdoors, even more so now.

We can roll over, we can "point fingers" or we can straight to the heart. Adults today are mostly decided, wherever they stand

Kids
Not so much

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Originally Posted by welsh

Your error is to think this is about small numbers of hunters and small numbers of anti-hunters, and that this is about hunting in general. It isn't. This happened because a large majority of the public opposes African big game trophy hunting.

At the same time, the majority of the public does not oppose hunting in general, so there is no significant public pressure to expand this ban. A few postings on a website does not constitute significant public pressure.



It's frankly embarrassing that you don't understand what the slippery slope fallacy is.

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This happened because Air Canada took the politically correct, cowardly route in the hope that doing so would curry favour with the travelling public.



What's embarrassing is when you identify a simple statement as a slippery slope argument when it wasn't that at all. I'm not sure why you chose to take the personal denigration route, but now that we're on it, I'm okay with that.

Once again Marketing proves it's value. If hunters are only 3% of the population then the number of hunters within that 3% who will ever go to Africa on safari really means nothing in terms of lost business. Catering to the masses who look down on trophy hunting has a far greater return on investment. I don't think the management of any of these airlines could care less what people do on vacation, they do care what competing airlines do to attract their travel dollars. This will no doubt spawn new additional charges for all sportsmen who travel with firearms and the uninformed and easily duped public won't care as it fits in their ideology and doesn't cost them anything anyway.
This whole event will likely not influence the few hunters who can afford to and want to hunt Africa. It will be a problem if airlines refuse to transport firearms though as already said many of these trophies are probably shipped cargo due to packaging realities anyway. My guess is that hunters will stop traveling in LL Bean "Safari wear" and dress like everybody else to avoid any confrontations.
It is a shame as trophy hunting when done properly and legally is a very important part of the economy where it is practiced but the progressives in LA or NY or TO will still be able to sit in the smog and enjoy their Starbucks coffee ( which is probably farmed by people in near slave like conditions) and grin knowing they have saved an animal. the fact some person can no longer eat doesn't really matter in their self entitled world.
If a Conservative doesn't like something they don't do it or buy it. If a Progressive doesn't like something they want it banned. This will never change.

Terrym, well said!

Next thing you know, they will refuse transporting hunting gear (guns included) and eventually hunters... Am glad they still transport alcohol, tobacco and probably drugs, that still kill thousands of Americans every year. Did I mention terrorists, prostitutes, pedophiles...the list could go on ....?

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Saw this coming....

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