MNR sure messed up the moose hunt

I would love to know how they MNR came up with this 2 week calf hunt, they have some real problems in the office, they should have made it that a adult moose tag could be used on a calf anytime during the hunt, they are forcing hunters to shoot the cow and leave the calf? the MNR says hunters are more ethical than they used to be and people wont shoot the cow and leave the calf, they need to get out more, people pay big dollars on hunting trips and most people will shoot a cow with a calf only because the MNR is forcing them too. this is just ridiculous, a cow tag should be able to be used anytime during the hunting season on a calf so people can be ethical!

Wolves need to eat too!

If you want the population to go back up then stop shooting the cows and the calves.

Cancel the calf hunt, cancel the cow hunt and have a bull only hunt with a minimum number of points or minimum width as is the case in many areas of North America.

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Originally Posted by Fox

If you want the population to go back up then stop shooting the cows and the calves.

Cancel the calf hunt, cancel the cow hunt and have a bull only hunt with a minimum number of points or minimum width as is the case in many areas of North America.

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ding ding ding!!! Exactly. Protect the breeding aged cows and you will increase your herd. Until we accept that here we will never gain ground when you add in habitat destruction and unregulated harvests.

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Originally Posted by Fox

If you want the population to go back up then stop shooting the cows and the calves.

Cancel the calf hunt, cancel the cow hunt and have a bull only hunt with a minimum number of points or minimum width as is the case in many areas of North America.

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How someone in that office hasn't thought of this already is beyond me. Really is common sense, just have to enforce it.

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Originally Posted by revr

I would love to know how they MNR came up with this 2 week calf hunt, they have some real problems in the office, they should have made it that a adult moose tag could be used on a calf anytime during the hunt, they are forcing hunters to shoot the cow and leave the calf? the MNR says hunters are more ethical than they used to be and people wont shoot the cow and leave the calf, they need to get out more, people pay big dollars on hunting trips and most people will shoot a cow with a calf only because the MNR is forcing them too. this is just ridiculous, a cow tag should be able to be used anytime during the hunting season on a calf so people can be ethical!

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Not sure what you're trying to say,here,but,it ain't workin'. We can already use an adult tag on a calf anytime we want,but,if it was our camp and you blew an adult tag on a calf,you'd be out on your arse before supper and the boys would be helping you pack.....quickly. I don't believe a two-week delayed calf hunt is enough. The OMNRF should have cancelled the calf hunt,completely,with very limted Cow tags issued. They have been dragged,kicking and screaming to the realization that issuing calf tags with every license has done nothing but wipe out the breeding stock by adding to the predation factor of Wolves and Bears. It was a stupid idea,then,and it's even dumber,now,knowing what we know,to keep it up.

[QUOTE=trimmer21;914906]Not sure what you're trying to say,here,but,it ain't workin'. We can already use an adult tag on a calf anytime we want,but,if it was our camp and you blew an adult tag on a calf,you'd be out on your arse before supper and the boys would be helping you pack.....quickly. I don't believe a two-week delayed calf hunt is enough. The OMNRF should have cancelled the calf hunt,completely,with very limted Cow tags issued. They have been dragged,kicking and screaming to the realization that issuing calf tags with every license has done nothing but wipe out the breeding stock by adding to the predation factor of Wolves and Bears. It was a stupid idea,then,and it's even dumber,now,knowing what we know,to keep it up.[/QUOT

I don't think you understand what I am saying, in NWO the hunt can be from as long as the middle of September until late December, there is a 2 week calf hunt not a delayed calf hunt, so you cant use your adult tag on a calf anytime, you can in that 2 week period but that's it, not anytime during the rest of the moose season.

also, the MNR has changed the regs because they say there isn't enough bulls, they claim there are too many cows without calves, in many WMU's they have raised the cow tags and lowered the bull tags, this system is screwed, the reason for the low numbers of calves is predators, I work in the tourism industries and deal with thousands of fly in fisherman and hunters every year, and the number of calves that are seen taken by bears in the spring is startling, the way the MNR does the moose survey is horrible as well, they take kids out of the fire program and through them in a turbo beaver and fly around counting moose, most of these people come back sick, popping gravol because they cant handle the flying low level banking around, and until you have a good eye at finding moose from the air you will be lucky to see 20% of the moose below.

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Originally Posted by Gobbler_Hunter7

How someone in that office hasn't thought of this already is beyond me. Really is common sense, just have to enforce it.

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Well said. I hope the MNR is just trying this route to get a rise out of hunters and getting them to speak up about cancelling the calves and cows for awhile. I think a temporary hiatus on moms & tots would be a good thing until healthy numbers are reached.

PG 38 of the 2015 hunting regs, 2 week calf hunt, cant shoot a calf any other time of the moose hunt even with an adult tag!

...and now they want our help.

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A PhD candidate from Trent University is looking to genetic testing for clues that might explain why moose populations are declining. Meredith Purcell is asking hunters to take part in the moose genome project by sending moose tissue samples to her in small tubes by mail. Preferred samples include meat, ear tips, or teeth.

The aim is to create and maintain a database of samples that can be used to determine if there is a connection between genetics and environmental factors. Purcell’s project uses genetic markers that occur within genes that have functions related to climate change and disease. “We are looking for variation within these genes within and between subspecies of moose in Ontario. For example, one of the genes I am looking at is related to thermoregulation, or the ability to regulate heat,” said Purcell. “So, finding differences within this gene (between the two subspecies of moose in Ontario) may indicate that one subspecies could be better adapted to warmer temperatures than the other.” The more samples that can be collected the more variation she may find.

The project focuses on factors other than hunting that may be causing the drop in moose numbers, yet hunters are Purcell’s number one source for the much-needed test material. Purcell is looking for samples from the Bancroft, Kenora, and Timmins areas.

The public is encouraged to get involved. Interested parties are asked to contact Purcell through her website.

Purcell is finishing up a tour of Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH) zone meetings, where she has been making presentations to moose hunters and others about the project’s preliminary results and future work. Non-OFAH members are welcome to attend these informational sessions.

The final two meetings will be held:
-August 27, 2015 Zone F at Perth Legion, 26 Beckwith St.E., Perth, ON
-September 26, 2015 Zone D in Parry Sound, ON

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http://www.oodmag.com/hunting/big-ga...moose-samples/

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Originally Posted by Gobbler_Hunter7

How someone in that office hasn't thought of this already is beyond me. Really is common sense, just have to enforce it.

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No money in it.

If we had a draw system that was not $60 each to enter then you may hold a number of people but they want the cash from the idiotic draw system.

If you closed the season and based a draw system in every single WMU, take the total number of Bull tags available right now and put them in a draw, no cow and no calf. Each person who wants to try for a hunt applies for a bull tag in a given WMU, group hunts allowed and bow/rifle/muzzle loader seasons taken into account as well. People spend $10-$20 to be entered into the draw, if they are drawn they go hunt moose, if they don't then they try again next year. If you like the pool system we can keep that too, first year you have almost no chance, the following years you have a chance.

In my opinion this is better than never seeing a moose in 10-15 years but hey, that is just me.

If the animal populations are truly low (which I believe in many WMU's), then they need to reduce the issued tags, period. The distribution of Bull, Cow and Calf tags should be decided based on the surveyed populations. If necessary I would support the suspension of the Cow and Calf hunt, for the benefit of the future.

the surveys are a huge part of the problem, they are not conducted properly, people that get sick in a plane shouldn't be counting moose from a plane.

My group got a bull tag for the bow hunt but my tag says that I can still take take calf??

I'm also all for removing the cow and calf hunt for a few years to allow the population to recuperate. Just look at the spring bear hunt example.

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Originally Posted by pics

My group got a bull tag for the bow hunt but my tag says that I can still take take calf??

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WHAT YOUR TAG IS SAYING IS THAT YOU WERE UNSUCCESSFUL IN THE DRAW
but
YOUR TAG IS GOOD FOR A CALF but ONLY DURING THE 2 WEEK CALF SEASON which is NOT during the bow season.

YOU COULD GO BACK UP AND HUNT DURING THE GUN SEASON AND USE YOUR TAG FOR A CALF BUT ONLY DURING THE 2 WEEK CALF OPEN SEASON.

I got a suspicion there will be a few bow hunters going to jail this bow season for shooting calves!

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Originally Posted by Fox

No money in it.

If we had a draw system that was not $60 each to enter then you may hold a number of people but they want the cash from the idiotic draw system.

If you closed the season and based a draw system in every single WMU, take the total number of Bull tags available right now and put them in a draw, no cow and no calf. Each person who wants to try for a hunt applies for a bull tag in a given WMU, group hunts allowed and bow/rifle/muzzle loader seasons taken into account as well. People spend $10-$20 to be entered into the draw, if they are drawn they go hunt moose, if they don't then they try again next year. If you like the pool system we can keep that too, first year you have almost no chance, the following years you have a chance.

In my opinion this is better than never seeing a moose in 10-15 years but hey, that is just me.

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Be careful what you ask for. The lottery favour some and discrimated against others. We have the lottery in NB for moose. Most hunters go from 25-35 years before getting a tag and others even longer,while others get draw very year. About 5,000 tags every year and 65,000 people applying. Price for lottery about $10.00 /year. By rights a person should get a tag every 13 years,it doesn't happen and never will.Some hunters have lots of non hunters applying then become the second gun and kills the moose every year. You don't want a lottery.

I always think the lottery system is a mess the years I don't draw a tag too.

wishing you better luck next year

Come on guys, do some research..... Licensed Hunters account for a very small % of harvested / killed Moose. I'm not interested in finding the source but it's less then 15%.

The moose population decrease, if it does in fact exist, is firstly impacted by predators followed by environmental conditions. We are seeing a decrease in moose because of the cancelled spring bear hunt as well as the need to pay for coyote / wolf tags north of the French which used to be free. Predator numbers have increased, moose numbers have declined.

The third reason might be speculation but has to do with natives and poaching which involves killing moose 365 days a year and not recording the harvest.

Environmental conditions include the changing landscape with regards to forestry combined with a couple of cold winters as well as disease.

Us as hunters come in around 4th and as mentioned, account for a very small % of the impact on moose.

I'm not fond of the MNR and the changes that have taken place, however, if you want to make a difference, buy a bear and wolf tag when you go up north and split your time up between hunting moose and hunting predators....

I'll tell you how foolish it is closing the hunt for calves in the 1st 2 weeks . Or group of 7 drew 4 cow tags in 16c . Obviously we will not even try to fill all the tags but if we even fill 2 tags, the bears and wolves will probably take care of the calves that these cows would have had with them. We would be just as happy with a cow and her calf and our hunt would be over. How can the MNR not see the system they have in place now that the calves will be left to fend for themselves and this will not happen.

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Originally Posted by Foxx

I'll tell you how foolish it is closing the hunt for calves in the 1st 2 weeks . Or group of 7 drew 4 cow tags in 16c . Obviously we will not even try to fill all the tags but if we even fill 2 tags, the bears and wolves will probably take care of the calves that these cows would have had with them. We would be just as happy with a cow and her calf and our hunt would be over. How can the MNR not see the system they have in place now that the calves will be left to fend for themselves and this will not happen.

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Doesnt sound like it was going to end well for the calf if you were allowed to use a calf tag either.

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Originally Posted by Foxx

I'll tell you how foolish it is closing the hunt for calves in the 1st 2 weeks . Or group of 7 drew 4 cow tags in 16c . Obviously we will not even try to fill all the tags but if we even fill 2 tags, the bears and wolves will probably take care of the calves that these cows would have had with them. We would be just as happy with a cow and her calf and our hunt would be over. How can the MNR not see the system they have in place now that the calves will be left to fend for themselves and this will not happen.

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We hunted 16C last year. I can assure you, you do not need to worry about orphaning any calves. You will see more wolf and bear sign then moose sign. 16c is a caribou management zone, they are trying to wipe out the moose to allow the caribou to move in. You'd also be well served to find out all the roads that you can not access...

I got my tag my first year applying and then you have to do 3 practice shot if you can't hit the target you don't get your tag. It use to also be once your name was drawn you were suppose to wait for 5 years.

But yes I have know people who never got a tag their whole hunting life.

Have you put your name in at all?

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Originally Posted by Greenhorn

Be careful what you ask for. The lottery favour some and discrimated against others. We have the lottery in NB for moose. Most hunters go from 25-35 years before getting a tag and others even longer,while others get draw very year. About 5,000 tags every year and 65,000 people applying. Price for lottery about $10.00 /year. By rights a person should get a tag every 13 years,it doesn't happen and never will.Some hunters have lots of non hunters applying then become the second gun and kills the moose every year. You don't want a lottery.

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

We hunted 16C last year. I can assure you, you do not need to worry about orphaning any calves. You will see more wolf and bear sign then moose sign. 16c is a caribou management zone, they are trying to wipe out the moose to allow the caribou to move in. You'd also be well served to find out all the roads that you can not access...

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Yes you are right about the road use. The MNR watch every road all day and even flew over low every afternoon around 4 pm . We were camped near the road and most nights the MNR never went out until after 10 p-m . We did see bears but did get a bull on the Thursday but had not seen a fresh track up until then from Saturday.

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Originally Posted by Foxx

Yes you are right about the road use. The MNR watch every road all day and even flew over low every afternoon around 4 pm . We were camped near the road and most nights the MNR never went out until after 10 p-m . We did see bears but did get a bull on the Thursday but had not seen a fresh track up until then from Saturday.

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Good for you guys, at least you got one. We went in the 3rd week last year, only 1 moose taken along the whole lenght of airport road and it was shot illegally right on the road. It's tough going up there for moose but grouse are plentiful.

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

Come on guys, do some research..... Licensed Hunters account for a very small % of harvested / killed Moose. I'm not interested in finding the source but it's less then 15%.

The moose population decrease, if it does in fact exist, is firstly impacted by predators followed by environmental conditions. We are seeing a decrease in moose because of the cancelled spring bear hunt as well as the need to pay for coyote / wolf tags north of the French which used to be free. Predator numbers have increased, moose numbers have declined.

The third reason might be speculation but has to do with natives and poaching which involves killing moose 365 days a year and not recording the harvest.

Environmental conditions include the changing landscape with regards to forestry combined with a couple of cold winters as well as disease.

Us as hunters come in around 4th and as mentioned, account for a very small % of the impact on moose.

I'm not fond of the MNR and the changes that have taken place, however, if you want to make a difference, buy a bear and wolf tag when you go up north and split your time up between hunting moose and hunting predators....

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15% of the moose kills is still 15% of the moose kills.

If we have a declining population then why are we killing off any of the breeding stock and any of the next years stock?

Even if it is 10% why should we keep doing it if the population is dropping like everyone says it is.

If there are only 20 animals and 10 die, should that hunter be able to kill 1 of them, or 10% of that population that was killed of?

I think we have a stupid system here, we have numbers dropping all over the place and people are shooting moms and babies with no sex determination on the babies, how does that help the population come back.

If the draw is not something that works for everyone then just close moose hunting for 5 years and observe the population, better than not having any moose to recover in 10 years.

As for the natives, they are only 2% of the population of Ontario, I get that moose are shot by these hunters but why does everyone blame the natives for everything.

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Originally Posted by Fox

As for the natives, they are only 2% of the population of Ontario, I get that moose are shot by these hunters but why does everyone blame the natives for everything.

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I didnt see anyone blame the mess on the natives? But I will say that their contribution to the kill is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

I didnt see anyone blame the mess on the natives? But I will say that their contribution to the kill is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

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Re-read post #20 by JeffBondar. Look for the word "natives".

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

Re-read post #20 by JeffBondar. Look for the word "natives".

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Do you mean this statement? "The third reason might be speculation but has to do with natives and poaching which involves killing moose 365 days a year and not recording the harvest."
I don't see where Jeff is "but why does everyone blame the natives for everything." as Fox say's, blaming the natives for everything?
As I said, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

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Originally Posted by Fox

15% of the moose kills is still 15% of the moose kills.

If we have a declining population then why are we killing off any of the breeding stock and any of the next years stock?

Even if it is 10% why should we keep doing it if the population is dropping like everyone says it is.

If there are only 20 animals and 10 die, should that hunter be able to kill 1 of them, or 10% of that population that was killed of?

I think we have a stupid system here, we have numbers dropping all over the place and people are shooting moms and babies with no sex determination on the babies, how does that help the population come back.

If the draw is not something that works for everyone then just close moose hunting for 5 years and observe the population, better than not having any moose to recover in 10 years.

As for the natives, they are only 2% of the population of Ontario, I get that moose are shot by these hunters but why does everyone blame the natives for everything.

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Like I said, our impact is a very low percentage. The MNR has made drastic cuts in tags so much so that if we accounted for 15% of kills before and 80% of tags have been reduced then we can only account for 3% now and you still want reductions... The problem has to be dealt with from the top, reduce predation and make "everyone" accountable for their kills by having equal rules for all.

Cutting more tags or shutting down the hunt all together is like blaming the homeless people for a poor economy. Making change to the small minority at that level is not going to make a difference to the overall situation.

Time to go catch some salmon ☺

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Originally Posted by Foxx

I'll tell you how foolish it is closing the hunt for calves in the 1st 2 weeks . Or group of 7 drew 4 cow tags in 16c . Obviously we will not even try to fill all the tags but if we even fill 2 tags, the bears and wolves will probably take care of the calves that these cows would have had with them. We would be just as happy with a cow and her calf and our hunt would be over. How can the MNR not see the system they have in place now that the calves will be left to fend for themselves and this will not happen.

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Exactly! This is the awareness I was trying to make with this thread, but a lot of people don't see it

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

Come on guys, do some research..... Licensed Hunters account for a very small % of harvested / killed Moose. I'm not interested in finding the source but it's less then 15%.

The moose population decrease, if it does in fact exist, is firstly impacted by predators followed by environmental conditions. We are seeing a decrease in moose because of the cancelled spring bear hunt as well as the need to pay for coyote / wolf tags north of the French which used to be free. Predator numbers have increased, moose numbers have declined.

The third reason might be speculation but has to do with natives and poaching which involves killing moose 365 days a year and not recording the harvest.

Environmental conditions include the changing landscape with regards to forestry combined with a couple of cold winters as well as disease.

Us as hunters come in around 4th and as mentioned, account for a very small % of the impact on moose.

I'm not fond of the MNR and the changes that have taken place, however, if you want to make a difference, buy a bear and wolf tag when you go up north and split your time up between hunting moose and hunting predators....

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I don't understand why people T off on the MNR (not you Jeff).We know
~Nowhere, not even remotely enough COs
~Nowhere, near enough boots on the ground, or biologist in labs. If not for mandatory returns and other where would their data come from? How much do you think it cost to send techs into the field and have boots on the ground?

~We know changes in habitat can have big impacts
~We know the laws of nature. If Rabbits are disappearing is anyone surprised Coyotes are exploding?
~We know there are unregulated aspects.
~We know why Lions and many more disappeared.

~We know, the MoE and MNR get less than 1% of the budget.
Im not a Moose hunter and so don't know the nitty grittys of the draw etc. Do hunt deer and I don't mind at all seeing tags drastically reduced last year.

I doubt anyone will ever be able to say it's "decease", or it's Predators, or its unregulated hunting or its.
All the above Im guessing.

So is the Problem the MNR who is tasked with the Impossible? Or is it Queens Park, or is it a populace that in truth doesn't care about conservation. If "we" did, the politicians would listen and more money would be flowing to the MoE and MNR. And then maybe they might have a better handle on things.

As for the new study. Again, why do they need hunters help so much. And if you care, what does it hurt?
Better something than nothing.

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Originally Posted by Fox

15% of the moose kills is still 15% of the moose kills.

If we have a declining population then why are we killing off any of the breeding stock and any of the next years stock?

Even if it is 10% why should we keep doing it if the population is dropping like everyone says it is.

If there are only 20 animals and 10 die, should that hunter be able to kill 1 of them, or 10% of that population that was killed of?

I think we have a stupid system here, we have numbers dropping all over the place and people are shooting moms and babies with no sex determination on the babies, how does that help the population come back.

If the draw is not something that works for everyone then just close moose hunting for 5 years and observe the population, better than not having any moose to recover in 10 years.

As for the natives, they are only 2% of the population of Ontario, I get that moose are shot by these hunters but why does everyone blame the natives for everything.

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Natives are a huge part of the problem, just most people don't see how bad it really is, I personally know of one native fella who in one fall shot 27 moose! Yes 27, he then sends them up north by plane to a fly in reserve where the meat is sold!

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Originally Posted by revr

Natives are a huge part of the problem, just most people don't see how bad it really is, I personally know of one native fella who in one fall shot 27 moose! Yes 27, he then sends them up north by plane to a fly in reserve where the meat is sold!

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That would not be part of the treaty rights or in line with the reserves.

I have a few friends who are Native hunters, this would piss them off to hear more than any white guy here, they are being dragged through the dirt by the bad of their group.

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Originally Posted by Fox

That would not be part of the treaty rights or in line with the reserves.

I have a few friends who are Native hunters, this would piss them off to hear more than any white guy here, they are being dragged through the dirt by the bad of their group.

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I live in very close proximity to a reserve, I also have native buddies that hunt, they take one moose maybe two a year, but there are a lot of them that take high numbers of moose each year, they hunt at night with spot lights and only hunt from the roads for the most parts. but nobody will address this problem, they should not be able to shoot a firearm at night! anyone can shoot a moose in the headlights, but hey Canada says its legal for natives to do it.

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Originally Posted by revr

I live in very close proximity to a reserve, I also have native buddies that hunt, they take one moose maybe two a year, but there are a lot of them that take high numbers of moose each year, they hunt at night with spot lights and only hunt from the roads for the most parts. but nobody will address this problem, they should not be able to shoot a firearm at night! anyone can shoot a moose in the headlights, but hey Canada says its legal for natives to do it.

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I would love to see the legality of night hunting and the use of lights being legal for native hunters.

The guys I know have to hunt on treaty lands, which is generally at their home reserve or around that home reserve and they do have seasons and quota, those seasons and quota are just part of the band, not part of the province. When it comes to Algonquin and deer I know another group who hunts on their treaty rights and although they may take 2-3 deer a year they are always bucks.

I don't have numbers to back it up but I cannot believe that the percentages of Natives poaching or over hunting is all that much higher than that of non-Natives. You hear about the trailers full of Walleye being trucked out of NW Ontario, the buck pictures on Facebook of guys that are shooting dozens of deer a year and at night.

It is not just a Native problem, but there are no COs.

I do agree with you though on the policing, you look at Nippissing and you want to vomit over the BS that goes on there, the Bands do not seem to give a crap about the future but I still believe that this is the exception rather than the norm in the province.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I would love to see the legality of night hunting and the use of lights being legal for native hunters.

The guys I know have to hunt on treaty lands, which is generally at their home reserve or around that home reserve and they do have seasons and quota, those seasons and quota are just part of the band, not part of the province. When it comes to Algonquin and deer I know another group who hunts on their treaty rights and although they may take 2-3 deer a year they are always bucks.

I don't have numbers to back it up but I cannot believe that the percentages of Natives poaching or over hunting is all that much higher than that of non-Natives. You hear about the trailers full of Walleye being trucked out of NW Ontario, the buck pictures on Facebook of guys that are shooting dozens of deer a year and at night.

It is not just a Native problem, but there are no COs.

I do agree with you though on the policing, you look at Nippissing and you want to vomit over the BS that goes on there, the Bands do not seem to give a crap about the future but I still believe that this is the exception rather than the norm in the province.

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Google, supreme court rules pit lamp hunting legal for natives, there have been multiple cases of this, one within 20kms of my home town in NW Ontario, a native was charged for night hunting, got off because the precedence has been set at the supreme court level, any night of the week in September or October I can go for a drive and see where the natives are driving their mini vans on the bush roads, they pull up to every cut and shine their high beams into the cut, no moose they drive to the next cut, I see this all the time, I agree that there are lots of white man poaching that goes on as well, just the amount of moose taken by natives is way higher. treaty lands are huge in NWO its not just a small area around the rez, we even have natives fly out of their reserves, which are in prime moose hunting territory except for the fact that they have shot them all, to hunt off rez because it is to hard to find a moose near their rez. the native moose hunt is something that will never change, we just live with it, I see it everyday, when a moose shows up to be flown up to a reserve it doesn't bug me because we see it everyday, I laugh at how they handle it, 4 quarters wrapped in black garbage bags still warm is disgusting, but hey im not eating it.

oh and I am originally from north bay and what is happening at Nippissing is horrible!

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I got my tag my first year applying and then you have to do 3 practice shot if you can't hit the target you don't get your tag. It use to also be once your name was drawn you were suppose to wait for 5 years.

But yes I have know people who never got a tag their whole hunting life.

Have you put your name in at all?

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Yes I have,never got drawn , my brother 15 years,cousin 24 years, other cousin 13, 30 and 31 years .Neighbour and hunting partner 34 years with out getting tags. If you miss one year you have to start over. A select few get drowned every year or every other year.

For those who have adult cow tags and are worried about orphaning the calves, why not go up when the calf hunt is open so you may kill (harvest) both?

Interesting I just read the NB regs and you are only out for 1 year if you were successful, it use to be 5 when I lived there. I noticed you still have to be 18 to hunt Moose and I think it's the same for deer and bear isn't it.

A lot of people also don't know that if you were born in NB but no longer live there but you own land you can hunt as a resident. To bad I was born in NS>

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Originally Posted by Greenhorn

Yes I have,never got drawn , my brother 15 years,cousin 24 years, other cousin 13, 30 and 31 years .Neighbour and hunting partner 34 years with out getting tags. If you miss one year you have to start over. A select few get drowned every year or every other year.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

For those who have adult cow tags and are worried about orphaning the calves, why not go up when the calf hunt is open so you may kill (harvest) both?

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the 2 weeks that are open for calf hunting will be a war zone in my area, I assume a lot of hunters will travel up here as usuall, I am sure those 2 weeks will be the busiest weeks of the hunt.

I think the majority of people will come those 2 weeks, not because of orphaning a calf but because a camp of 6 guys hunting not in the 2 week calf hunt, has one adult tag, they fill the tag first day, hunt over.

Anybody that shoots a cow with calves during the open adult only, should be ashamed, you know its wrong and you know what's going to happen to the calf, even though its legal doesn't make it right, and people doing this will b!tch the most in ten years why there less tags then now,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt86

Anybody that shoots a cow with calves during the open adult only, should be ashamed, you know its wrong and you know what's going to happen to the calf, even though its legal doesn't make it right, and people doing this will b!tch the most in ten years why there less tags then now,

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i agree. I couldn't shoot a cow with calves. I have taken a cow with 2 calves but shot them too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt86

Anybody that shoots a cow with calves during the open adult only, should be ashamed, you know its wrong and you know what's going to happen to the calf, even though its legal doesn't make it right, and people doing this will b!tch the most in ten years why there less tags then now,

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Here's another one on this forum... Telling law abiding hunters they are wrong, your way must be the only way. Keep your judgement to yourself. If people are following the rules you have no right to look down on them...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

Here's another one on this forum... Telling law abiding hunters they are wrong, your way must be the only way. Keep your judgement to yourself. If people are following the rules you have no right to look down on them...

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Everybody is entitled to their opinion,right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt86

Anybody that shoots a cow with calves during the open adult only, should be ashamed, you know its wrong and you know what's going to happen to the calf, even though its legal doesn't make it right, and people doing this will b!tch the most in ten years why there less tags then now,

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I agree and that's why I started this thread, everyone knows what will happen to the calf, so make it that you can take the calf with an adult tag, at least the ethical hunters will take the calf and leave the cow, i have always passed on calves, and cows with calves but i can guarantee you that the guy that has been going hunting for 10 years and never shot a moose or maybe even seen one gets that chance at a cow and more than half of the hunters out there will take that cow regardless of it having a calf or not. the way the MNR has revamped the seasons will kill more calves than leaving the calf hunt alone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Everybody is entitled to their opinion,right?

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Everybody is entitled to hunt in their own fashion, whatever they like, providing they are going it legally, it is not for me or you or anyone else to lay judgment. Laying a guilt trip on legal hunters, telling them they should be ashamed... well I've heard words like that before... coming from anti's......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

Everybody is entitled to hunt in their own fashion, whatever they like, providing they are going it legally, it is not for me or you or anyone else to lay judgment. Laying a guilt trip on legal hunters, telling them they should be ashamed... well I've heard words like that before... coming from anti's......

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yes they are, everyone can hunt however they choose, as long as its legal, that's what bugs me, give the option for the hunter to take the calf, that is my problem, buy having the calf hunt the way it is more people will choose to take the cow, but that is their legal right! give them the option and majority will take the calf and leave the breeding cow breed another day!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by revr

yes they are, everyone can hunt however they choose, as long as its legal, that's what bugs me, give the option for the hunter to take the calf, that is my problem, buy having the calf hunt the way it is more people will choose to take the cow, but that is their legal right! give them the option and majority will take the calf and leave the breeding cow breed another day!

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My friend, I understand what you are saying and I can appreciate you caring for the moose population, we all do. I will suggest however that you take a look at how many cow tags were issued this year. If you think about it, the majority if not a very strong percentage will shoot a cow if they have a cow tag. To think otherwise will be wishful thinking on your part. People don't apply for adult moose tags just to shoot calves....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

My friend, I understand what you are saying and I can appreciate you caring for the moose population, we all do. I will suggest however that you take a look at how many cow tags were issued this year. If you think about it, the majority if not a very strong percentage will shoot a cow if they have a cow tag. To think otherwise will be wishful thinking on your part. People don't apply for adult moose tags just to shoot calves....

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I know a lot of hunters and I can honestly say I don't know one that would shoot a cow over the calf if they have the choice, everyone I know would not have a problem putting a cow tag on a calf! And I live in one of the busiest moose hunting areas in the province, maybe you would shoot a cow and tag it but the majority wouldn't if given the option most hunters would love to put their cow tag on a calf, problem is MNR took away the option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

Here's another one on this forum... Telling law abiding hunters they are wrong, your way must be the only way. Keep your judgement to yourself. If people are following the rules you have no right to look down on them...

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lol no but I have been told by my dad and grandpa and they have seen what happens,
in 1992 I walked home from kindergarten to 5 moose on my lawn, They killed a bull, a cow, 2 female calves and a male calf, coolest thing I've ever seen was awesome, all legal. Next year they killed 4 outta the same area legal, in a span of 6 years they killed like 18 moose in a group of 8 hunters, Then weird they stopped killin moose or seeing them.
Now they look at it and talk about how stupid it was just because they were aloud to do it, it wasn't right at all man. Could winter played a role most likely but if they shot 2 bulls a year would they been more moose most likely, Didn't never say they are wrong for shooting it, ashamed is completely different, Kill the cow then you should gut shoot the calf to make it easier on the wolfs.
Moose hunting is a very easy game when you hunt bulls to me, put your time in, scout and know how to hunt and call its game over. That's why I guess I don't get the point to kill 2 moose when you only get to eat one, that's whats happening if you shoot a cow and not the calf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by revr

I know a lot of hunters and I can honestly say I don't know one that would shoot a cow over the calf if they have the choice, everyone I know would not have a problem putting a cow tag on a calf! And I live in one of the busiest moose hunting areas in the province, maybe you would shoot a cow and tag it but the majority wouldn't if given the option most hunters would love to put their cow tag on a calf, problem is MNR took away the option.

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No actually they didn't take that option away, they just changed it. Here's a great way to prove my point. In some wmu's the calf season is 2 weeks after the adult opener and in some wmu's is 4-5 weeks after the adult opener. Do you really think that the majority of moose hunters in Ontario who drew a cow tag are not going to hunt the opener? Or the second week? In some cases the 4th and 5 week just because they don't want to use that cow tag they very fortunately got? Of course not. By your logic none of the people you know and your friends should even have cow tags because they have no intention of shooting one.... Shouldn't they have just applied for bulls then? What you are implying does not make sense. It may very well be your opinion but the logic shows it is not the norm...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

Everybody is entitled to hunt in their own fashion, whatever they like, providing they are going it legally, it is not for me or you or anyone else to lay judgment. Laying a guilt trip on legal hunters, telling them they should be ashamed... well I've heard words like that before... coming from anti's......

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Staying out of this but...

Not unlike the world telling hunters thats its unethical and barbaric to shoot lions. I'm a conservationist, then photographer, then hunter.
Trophy hunting isn't for me, when I want the challenge of hunting big game on the ground. I still hunt them with my camera.
Personally I think your all barbaric hunting Moose when it appears the numbers are crashing.. Sound right?
And no I don't actually feel that way, but....

Its one thing to discuss if X or Y should be changed. Its another to tell another hunter its wrong, or unethical or only good hunters do it this/that way.

Many have not so nice things to say about deer hunters who follow
"If it's brown it's down"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by revr

I know a lot of hunters and I can honestly say I don't know one that would shoot a cow over the calf if they have the choice, everyone I know would not have a problem putting a cow tag on a calf! And I live in one of the busiest moose hunting areas in the province, maybe you would shoot a cow and tag it but the majority wouldn't if given the option most hunters would love to put their cow tag on a calf, problem is MNR took away the option.

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You're talking about local people that live in the area, can pass on a moose and come back next week and try again. Many hunters travel 1000'sKM's to get to their hunting grounds, spending a lot of money in the process at the hope of tagging an animal within a week. Passing up on a legal animal rather than filling the tag / freezer isn't an option for many. The MNR has made some poor choices with Moose - everyone can agree on that. Shaming hunters that share the same passion you do for operating within the law isn't solving issues, but rather creating a divide amongst people that should all be working together.


FishFrenzy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

No actually they didn't take that option away, they just changed it. Here's a great way to prove my point. In some wmu's the calf season is 2 weeks after the adult opener and in some wmu's is 4-5 weeks after the adult opener. Do you really think that the majority of moose hunters in Ontario who drew a cow tag are not going to hunt the opener? Or the second week? In some cases the 4th and 5 week just because they don't want to use that cow tag they very fortunately got? Of course not. By your logic none of the people you know and your friends should even have cow tags because they have no intention of shooting one.... Shouldn't they have just applied for bulls then? What you are implying does not make sense. It may very well be your opinion but the logic shows it is not the norm...

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The calf hunt isn't just delayed 2 weeks, in some wmu the moose hunt is 3 months long, and the calf hunt is 2 weeks long, not delayed by 2 weeks, and they apply for a cow tag to shoot a cow, not a cow with a calf, most cows you will see will be by themselves, but if the one you do see has a calf then bingo!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt86

lol no but I have been told by my dad and grandpa and they have seen what happens,
in 1992 I walked home from kindergarten to 5 moose on my lawn, They killed a bull, a cow, 2 female calves and a male calf, coolest thing I've ever seen was awesome, all legal. Next year they killed 4 outta the same area legal, in a span of 6 years they killed like 18 moose in a group of 8 hunters, Then weird they stopped killin moose or seeing them.
Now they look at it and talk about how stupid it was just because they were aloud to do it, it wasn't right at all man. Could winter played a role most likely but if they shot 2 bulls a year would they been more moose most likely, Didn't never say they are wrong for shooting it, ashamed is completely different, Kill the cow then you should gut shoot the calf to make it easier on the wolfs.
Moose hunting is a very easy game when you hunt bulls to me, put your time in, scout and know how to hunt and call its game over. That's why I guess I don't get the point to kill 2 moose when you only get to eat one, that's whats happening if you shoot a cow and not the calf

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Exactly!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt86

Anybody that shoots a cow with calves during the open adult only, should be ashamed, you know its wrong and you know what's going to happen to the calf, even though its legal doesn't make it right, and people doing this will b!tch the most in ten years why there less tags then now,

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We've got 2 cow tags, if we see 2 cows they're going down with or without calves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obi-wanShinobi

We've got 2 cow tags, if we see 2 cows they're going down with or without calves.

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Lol, pretty much reality for most people...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Interesting I just read the NB regs and you are only out for 1 year if you were successful, it use to be 5 when I lived there. I noticed you still have to be 18 to hunt Moose and I think it's the same for deer and bear isn't it.

A lot of people also don't know that if you were born in NB but no longer live there but you own land you can hunt as a resident. To bad I was born in NS>

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Not any more, you pull a tag and you go back into the pool the next year. Some hunters pull a tag every year and some every other year but most go 30 + years. Thank god I love hunting Bears . No problem killing a big bear,lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FishFrenzy

You're talking about local people that live in the area, can pass on a moose and come back next week and try again. Many hunters travel 1000'sKM's to get to their hunting grounds, spending a lot of money in the process at the hope of tagging an animal within a week. Passing up on a legal animal rather than filling the tag / freezer isn't an option for many. The MNR has made some poor choices with Moose - everyone can agree on that. Shaming hunters that share the same passion you do for operating within the law isn't solving issues, but rather creating a divide amongst people that should all be working together.


FishFrenzy

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That's where your wrong, we travel the same distance for deer hunting that you travel for moose hunting, and if I had a doe tag I wouldn't shoot the doe and leave the fawn!
And that's in your back yard!

Moose should be controlled with the same tags as deer. Antlered and antlerless tags. Forget making a distinction between adult cows and ambiguous sex calves.

I like it.....Very simple and easy to understand...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

Moose should be controlled with the same tags as deer. Antlered and antlerless tags. Forget making a distinction between adult cows and ambiguous sex calves.

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Rev, can you appreciate that your "realities" are different from other peoples.

1) More deer than Moose, yet even with deer many have the "if its brown it's down" approach. So just think about that, what if when you went Deer hunting sightings, were few and far between. Still sure your approach might not change?

2) Im guessing you hunt a lot. Seem to have a fair bit of time for Moose, than make a 12-17hr drive south for deer for another week?

I hunted deer in 53 ( between bracebridge/huntsville). Family owned 100 acre parcel. Not many deer there, and the guys had busy lives. Careers, wives, young children. They found it hard getting weekends in Aug and Sept to do prep work, let alone take an entire week in Nov for Deer. The only hunting they would do that year. Most years they didn't fill any tags, the years I was there we saw about 6-7 does/fawns total, for the years I went and not 1 WT graced a pole.

If it was brown and the shot safe, it was getting shot…… period. If not for me, for them (Last deer hung was around 2009).

To each their own.
It's good if the MNR says its good and thats the only thing that matters.

It is possible to discuss things about conservation, about declining numbers and what might be done, without…….

how do you offer both cow and bull surplus tags when the mnrf says they are cutting quotas due to moose population declines???? I just got back from my camp in area 28. Talked to the local butcher and he said he did 91 moose last year. 13 of which were from non aboriginals. that blew my mind !!! Not to mention he did 12 cows this past april!!!!! wtf!!! they are shooting cows heavy with calves in the spring????? I call on this. you know those cows prob had calves........lets face it.... until we regulate our moose herd as a whole we really aren't regulating it at all!!!!!!

it's a shame that some people call themselves hunters but have no respect for the animal they hunt and do not want to preserve future hunting.We have a low deer herds ,I buy a tag so I can hunt partridge and may go out once or twice for deer.

/sigh
And people wonder why.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

/sigh
And people wonder why.

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JBen, nice to see posts from you; it has been a while. Hope you are well.

One thing I see commonly in these threads....."MNR screwed it up" "Common sense says" or "everybody knows"...all from people who have never asked the MNR biologists why these decisions have been made. No change ever came from armchair quarterbacks. Do the research.

Nice seeing you post as well KC. Life is interesting, wouldn't have it any other way. :)

Here's something else people keep forgetting. They are rediculously underfunded and understaffed. Yet...given that...

From the Drummond report
http://envirolaw.com/drummond-report/

From another source (lots of information on this site)
http://www.eco.on.ca/uploads/Reports...s%20report.pdf

There are more reports in the one above, in one I read somewhere that the MoE and MNR have a combined 4,000 personal total. Think about that, that would barely qualify as a small town…A pin prick on the huge map of Ontario. Read those, in their entirety…….and weep.

Do some digging, research, find things out, talk to biologist if Moose or X are your "things".
Get involved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

JBen, nice to see posts from you; it has been a while. Hope you are well.

One thing I see commonly in these threads....."MNR screwed it up" "Common sense says" or "everybody knows"...all from people who have never asked the MNR biologists why these decisions have been made. No change ever came from armchair quarterbacks. Do the research.

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Do the research? You need one bredung bull per three cows, post harvest numbers should be 67 bulls per hundred cows that includes bull calves and sub adults, 75 to 90 percent of cows will be bred, if a cow isn't bred for 2 consecutive years she will become a baron cow and most likely won't be able to get bred again, there is a current study going on for calf survival and calf mortality, there was a study recently into the effects of glyphosate and it leading to prognathism in our moose herds as well as deer and elk.
A cow will have her first calf in her third year. The MNR missed 3 cycles in sertain WMU's for moose surveys which is 9 years. When the survey is competed there is 4 people on the turbo beaver and they fly the grid at flight lines of 500 meters apart and each observer accounts for 250 meters of the flight line. The MNR wants to keep a moose herd of 120000 animals.

Regardless it's not about the research or not, I have a problem with people shooting the cows and leaving the calves, that is rediculous, shoot both or shoot the calf.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Rev, can you appreciate that your "realities" are different from other peoples.

1) More deer than Moose, yet even with deer many have the "if its brown it's down" approach. So just think about that, what if when you went Deer hunting sightings, were few and far between. Still sure your approach might not change?

2) Im guessing you hunt a lot. Seem to have a fair bit of time for Moose, than make a 12-17hr drive south for deer for another week?

I hunted deer in 53 ( between bracebridge/huntsville). Family owned 100 acre parcel. Not many deer there, and the guys had busy lives. Careers, wives, young children. They found it hard getting weekends in Aug and Sept to do prep work, let alone take an entire week in Nov for Deer. The only hunting they would do that year. Most years they didn't fill any tags, the years I was there we saw about 6-7 does/fawns total, for the years I went and not 1 WT graced a pole.

If it was brown and the shot safe, it was getting shot…… period. If not for me, for them (Last deer hung was around 2009).

To each their own.
It's good if the MNR says its good and thats the only thing that matters.

It is possible to discuss things about conservation, about declining numbers and what might be done, without…….

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I grew up hunting 47, same deal, not a lot of deer, I was raised that a deer in the field is left alone, you want a deer you go in the bush and get it.
I understand completely that not every hunter has the same realities as me, and that isn't what this thread was about, the MNR has taken the opportunity for a hunter like me to do the right thing, what I feel is the right thing, I don't care what you do within your legal rights and everyone is able to have their own opinion.

I do hunt a lot, I am very successfull in my moose hunts, and get my moose every year, I work very hard for it, I am sure there aren't many people that do what I do to get their moose, I only know one an she's my wife and she's with me. Last year we hunted a week and didn't see a deer until the 5th day, and if it was a doe with a fawn I would have passed all day on it, but that's me, I don't care if you would have shot it, that's you legal right, but I wouldn't have.

Not a lot of deer in 47?
Are you kidding me? Thats the Loring yards and guess what, I hunt there. With guys who have hunted it all their lives and seen their pictures going back to the 70s and 80s and utter gob smacking images of numbers on meat poles, and tales of 40 deer with eyes on you and you can't move because there sooooooo many, and drives that would……..

6,000 tags issued there the past few years. The most, anywhere in the province and I bet historically for decades.

lol, Ive read some funny things over the years, or things I couldn't understand where the poster is coming from but their realities, may not be mine, so I accept their pov, but someone claiming not a lot of deer in 47 is one of the funnier.

just going to pick one thing out (because truly zero interest "arguing" and believe strongly in "too each their own" aka your opinion is your opinion……..or holier than though people who can't have open minds, see that so many things can changes a persons perspective, whatever) like for example, why its easy to be selective if you hunt 47 vs a guy who only gets out for 6 days in the entire year and where numbers truly are really thin….And why a guy like me might burn my tag, so they can feel it, or have some meat in the freezer….after all I will be hunting 47 as well where chances are……I might see 40 deer in a day…vs other friends who haven't seen 20 deer in 6 years added together,and where guys come in at night talking about how many they saw, and high fives when someone get one….and so on and so on and so on.

But seeing as your so fixated on blaming the mnr.

Quote:

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A cow will have her first calf in her third year. The MNR missed 3 cycles in certain WMU's for moose surveys which is 9 years.

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Obviously you have a lot of time on your hands, but none to read the above links and put it together.
No money, nowhere near enough boots on the ground and more and its been like that since around the early 90s.

[QUOTE=JBen;915327]Not a lot of deer in 47?
Are you kidding me? Thats the Loring yards and guess what, I hunt there. With guys who have hunted it all their lives and seen their pictures going back to the 70s and 80s and utter gob smacking images of numbers on meat poles, and tales of 40 deer with eyes on you and you can't move because there sooooooo many, and drives that would……..

6,000 tags issued there the past few years. The most, anywhere in the province and I bet historically for decades.

lol, Ive read some funny things over the years, or things I couldn't understand where the poster is coming from but their realities, may not be mine, so I accept their pov, but someone claiming not a lot of deer in 47 is one of the funnier.

just going to pick one thing out (because truly zero interest "arguing" and believe strongly in "too each their own" aka your opinion is your opinion……..or holier than though people who can't have open minds, see that so many things can changes a persons perspective, whatever) like for example, why its easy to be selective if you hunt 47 vs a guy who only gets out for 6 days in the entire year and where numbers truly are really thin….And why a guy like me might burn my tag, so they can feel it, or have some meat in the freezer….after all I will be hunting 47 as well.

But seeing as your so fixated on blaming the mnr.



Obviously you have a lot of time on your hands, but none to read the above links and put it together.[/

Not hunting near the loring deer yards,
Close to trout creek, big difference, and the deer yards don't get busy until the snow falls, and I have family in port and they said the deer populations are way down there as well. And this past deer season I hunted the Nestor falls area, can't say that's near the deer yards! The deer populations are a whole different matter, and no I don't spend a lot of time reading articles, actually don't read any, I happen to have a wildlife specialist that is a real good friend and we talk about this from time to time, I also see the moose hunt surveys and projects first hand and know people that are in the plane doing the surveys, And conduct the surveys year after year.

Exactly, and don't think I didn't consider that possibility :)
Your realities….may not be the next persons….:)

for the record without giving away the exact location, we hunt golden valley. Point being "my" realities and thus my experiences, perspectives what not can be very different than the next persons. Which is what Ive been trying to get across. Its all good.

But on the topic of the MNR and questioning, or blaming…
Theres lots to consider, not the least of which is talk to biologist, talk to trappers ( I know a few up north, including a couple with BMAs and in their perspectives, theres still good numbers of Moose)

One persons "reality" may not be the next persons.

Why don't the MNR have anywhere near enough boots….
Queens Park
And why are they the lowest priority bottom of funding ladder?
Who do politicians listen to? Cater to, try to make happy, buy votes from?

US
the people

If WE CARED, there'd be more funding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Why don't the MNR have anywhere near enough boots….
Queens Park
And why are they the lowest priority bottom of funding ladder?
Who do politicians listen to? Cater to, try to make happy, buy votes from?

US
the people

If WE CARED, there'd be more funding.

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It may be our priority but it isn't even within the realm of consideration for the voting base in Ontario.

What was the stat provided? 3% of Ontarians hunt? Of course every government will maximize their dollar/vote expenditure and catering to 3% is not a good return. We are lucky to get the floor sweepings and it will only get worse. The reality is moose are on the decline for whatever the reason or combination of reasons and unless they reduce the harvest of breeding cows to the point where that can be turned around then it falls on hunters to manage what the ministry doesn't do properly. You can have all the Phds you want making management decisions but in the end it's the hunters who are the ones who actually are in the field, see the game and kill it. Hunters have the final decision. Do what you feel is right and within the laws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

It may be our priority but it isn't even within the realm of consideration for the voting base in Ontario.

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Agreed "mostly" FW.
Don't forget its the MoE as well. Those links if one reads through them are staggering, sobering, when you consider. How much Ontario has exploded since around 1990, and how little funding the MoE and MNR get, and then……try to wrap your brain around.

The size of Ontario
That we have (not sure exact amount, but in Cda its over 90%) most of the worlds fresh water

All they are asked to do, expected to do……………..need to do.

It's one thing to point fingers at S. Ont or the GTA, or….

But the fact is, we are part of it to.
How many grass roots be it Ducks Unlimited, be Trout unlimited, countless, countless regional grassroots are all
begging for money or volunteers.

Even OFAH. One may not agree with all their decisions, directions, but again consider all…..

Better something, than nothing.
And there are lots, I bet reading these forums who aren't members……

We gripe and moan every time anything goes up 2 cents, be it our outdoors cards, or the cost of a tag or……We aren't without our own roles and imo never throw stones at glass houses.

So what are we to do? If we care about "tomorrow" and especially our resources.

I know I am not that smart so that's why I ask questions....so here goes..... How would more money being put into the MNR help with the moose population? Would they do in vitro?

Reading through this thread and still don't know if we have a shortage of moose or shortage of moose counters(MNR Staff Members)... :)

Personally I think it's the technology and exploding human population that is taking a toll on our wildlife....
Bears have been around a long time, wolf have been around a long time, moose have been around a long time.....winters were a lot worse in years past but they have always managed to maintain a stable/balanced population........
Human population has exploded and man's technology has increased so much more then our animal partners it only stands to reason more moose are taken today then years past.....

I got to agree with you there ...there is way more moose harvested today the 30 years ago for sure ,,,My two cents is we got to stop everybody from hunting cows and calfs for a few years and this means everybody ....if this brings the numbers back up then we will have a better idea what the problem is ,,,,,we have to start taking more wolfs out of the park and surrounding areas as well as get the spring bear hunt back up in full swing ,,,,No more special intrest groups harvesting animals without tags and numbers being regulated ,,we need a full count to see what is really going on with the moose pop and see what happens with two years of no calf and cow harvest ...if we do not start now ,well when ,,,,,,,,Dutch

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

I got to agree with you there ...there is way more moose harvested today the 30 years ago for sure ,,,My two cents is we got to stop everybody from hunting cows and calfs for a few years and this means everybody ....if this brings the numbers back up then we will have a better idea what the problem is ,,,,,we have to start taking more wolfs out of the park and surrounding areas as well as get the spring bear hunt back up in full swing ,,,,No more special intrest groups harvesting animals without tags and numbers being regulated ,,we need a full count to see what is really going on with the moose pop and see what happens with two years of no calf and cow harvest ...if we do not start now ,well when ,,,,,,,,Dutch

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All good points. We should also introduce mandatory registration of moose kills. Interestingly in Quebec with similar geography and hunter populations they aren't as bad as us. They have always had a kill registry. I consider it the only way to have truly accurate data.

What I would like to know is why does it seem that Ontario has the most mismanaged Natural resources.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

I know I am not that smart so that's why I ask questions....so here goes..... How would more money being put into the MNR help with the moose population? Would they do in vitro?

Reading through this thread and still don't know if we have a shortage of moose or shortage of moose counters(MNR Staff Members)... :)

Personally I think it's the technology and exploding human population that is taking a toll on our wildlife....
Bears have been around a long time, wolf have been around a long time, moose have been around a long time.....winters were a lot worse in years past but they have always managed to maintain a stable/balanced population........
Human population has exploded and man's technology has increased so much more then our animal partners it only stands to reason more moose are taken today then years past.....

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Valid questions. The "technology" you mention Is the modern ATV. It has allowed more hunters to go in deeper And easier and that has to be the single biggest nail In the mooses coffin.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

What I would like to know is why does it seem that Ontario has the most mismanaged Natural resources.

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Because every government uses wildlife as a political tool. They all do it, no party is better than another.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Valid questions. The "technology" you mention Is the modern ATV. It has allowed more hunters to go in deeper And easier and that has to be the single biggest nail In the mooses coffin.

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Good point, back in the 1970's, I recall relatives of mine traveling days by car to Ignace, ON. Flying in on a private lake, staying for one week, sleeping in tents, then flying out. No ATV's, just brute force, a canoe, quartering moose by hand/knife/axe, etc... I think the season was way earlier than today though. With these seasons, the lakes would likely be frozen, no planes.

GW. While this thread is about Moose populations. Consider how many problems there. With other species, some environmental concerns and more.
Moose
Bears
Wolves (?) and coyotes
Asian carp
Cold water streams/urban sprawl
Giant hog and other invasive species
Monarchs
Walleye in different areas
And on and on that's just the tip

Nowhere near enough COs to patrol/enforce.Not enough field techs and biologist. How can they possibly figure out what's going on, let address address so much. They rely on hunter returns to help them get a handle on numbers of X, in different areas. Even there I bet many don't send them in, or the data might be sketchy.

Should they ignore something else and relegate more $, more man power and more man hours to Moose? Maybe we should sacrifice Walleye and concentrate on Moose?
I'm sure if they funnel a lot $ (what little they have) towards Moose, and Asian Carp take over.

They will be blamed for that to.

Until you can stop, control or even accurately track the uncontrolled harvest of moose, ultimately nothing else matters. Eventually there will not be a huntable population in accessible areas.

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Originally Posted by JBen

GW. While this thread is about Moose populations. Consider how many problems there. With other species, some environmental concerns and more.
Moose
Bears
Wolves (?) and coyotes
Asian carp
Cold water streams/urban sprawl
Giant hog and other invasive species
Monarchs
Walleye in different areas
And on and on that's just the tip

Nowhere near enough COs to patrol/enforce.Not enough field techs and biologist. How can they possibly figure out what's going on, let address address so much. They rely on hunter returns to help them get a handle on numbers of X, in different areas. Even there I bet many don't send them in, or the data might be sketchy.

Should they ignore something else and relegate more $, more man power and more man hours to Moose? Maybe we should sacrifice Walleye and concentrate on Moose?
I'm sure if they funnel a lot $ (what little they have) towards Moose, and Asian Carp take over.

They will be blamed for that to.

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I am sure the liberals carbon taxes will 100% be directed to resolving these issues...lol