Hunting up grouse with a dog

As you can see by this cover , it sure helps to have a pointing breed when hunting grouse . ( I'm not talking about shooting them by sight on an open trail.)

In these videos , for those that may not know how such a dog works : The dog points; the hunter looks for the bird to put it up; no luck, the hunter goes back to the dog and sends the dog to relocate. Shot of the bird is not shown as it's hard to shoot and video at the same time. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMTN...layer_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAEd...layer_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O43X...layer_embedded

videos by Grange

Cass/Krakadawn spaniel folk:

How does this cover work with a spaniel ? Wouldn't it flush the bird before you could have a decent shot?

Awesome pointer work however that kind of couver and a lone hunter makes a solid pointer a bit of a hindrance( speaking solely for me and not a judgement on what is right or wrong). My formative years where with dad hunting woodcock with a Britany. We all had our jobs. The dog pointed the birds and retrieved downed birds. Mine was the shooter. Dad was the handler for the dog and me. Once the bird was found Dad would assess and place me in an opening for the best shooting advantage. Once I was in place he moved in and flushed the bird all the while the dog would hold still. Made for some awesome shooting days of 90-100% averages. As time marched on and dad found it harder to bush wack our roles changed a bit. I should of become the flusher but I enjoyed shooting too much. So we evolved the dog's role into something that would hold still yet flush on command. Pretty much these days hunting alone I enjoy a pointer that flushes on command leaving me in a more open shooting position. Which is what I imagine a person running a flusher would do. Now you might say hey than why not just get a flusher. Well for me I just prefer the way a pointer runs over the gait of a flusher. Again not a nock against flushers just the my own personal preference.

Having never hunted over a pointing dog I can't offer much insight. To me that looks like a tough way to hunt, the hunter is kind of aimlessly walking around to find the bird the dog pointed. With a flusher you generally have ample time to get ready for a shot. Similar to a pointer going on point, a flusher gets birdy and more animated when it scents the bird. I can pretty much pinpoint the exact moment a bird is going to flush when hunting over my spaniel. I love watching those setters though. I may get one some day but I would want to teach it to flush on command. My reasoning for having a bird dog is that it will go into the cover that I don't want to go in myself and produce birds.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Having never hunted over a pointing dog I can't offer much insight. To me that looks like a tough way to hunt, the hunter is kind of aimlessly walking around to find the bird the dog pointed. With a flusher you generally have ample time to get ready for a shot. Similar to a pointer going on point, a flusher gets birdy and more animated when it scents the bird. I can pretty much pinpoint the exact moment a bird is going to flush when hunting over my spaniel. I love watching those setters though. I may get one some day but I would want to teach it to flush on command. My reasoning for having a bird dog is that it will go into the cover that I don't want to go in myself and produce birds.

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Some people ( Europeans especially) do train their pointing dogs to flush on command. Personally I think that is the way I will go on my next pointer. Crashing through some nasty woodcock cover quite often doesn't put you in a useful shooting position. I don't think a pointer or flusher produces more game one way or another. I just love seeing my Brittany slam into a point and then staying rock steady until I close in for a shot.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Having never hunted over a pointing dog I can't offer much insight. To me that looks like a tough way to hunt, the hunter is kind of aimlessly walking around to find the bird the dog pointed. With a flusher you generally have ample time to get ready for a shot. Similar to a pointer going on point, a flusher gets birdy and more animated when it scents the bird. I can pretty much pinpoint the exact moment a bird is going to flush when hunting over my spaniel. I love watching those setters though. I may get one some day but I would want to teach it to flush on command. My reasoning for having a bird dog is that it will go into the cover that I don't want to go in myself and produce birds.

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Actually its not so much aimless looking. You should be able to read your dog and often you get that look "its over there" When done right the bird lifts, yet not so pressured where it makes a frantic escape, towards the shooter which has a nice open shot.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Some people ( Europeans especially) do train their pointing dogs to flush on command. Personally I think that is the way I will go on my next pointer. Crashing through some nasty woodcock cover quite often doesn't put you in a useful shooting position. I don't think a pointer or flusher produces more game one way or another. I just love seeing my Brittany slam into a point and then staying rock steady until I close in for a shot.

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If you like that wait till they pop one up on your command while you position yourself out in the open.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

If you like that wait till they pop one up on your command while you position yourself out in the open.

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Im thinking that would be slick as hell. Do you have your pointing dog trained that way?

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Originally Posted by terrym

Im thinking that would be slick as hell. Do you have your pointing dog trained that way?

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The pup will be brought up that way only time will tell if we get truly in concert. Her predecessor was trained that way but even than if you get those days that the woodcock are sitting glue to the forest floor it was hard for her to break point.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Awesome pointer work however that kind of couver and a lone hunter makes a solid pointer a bit of a hindrance( speaking solely for me and not a judgement on what is right or wrong). My formative years where with dad hunting woodcock with a Britany. We all had our jobs. The dog pointed the birds and retrieved downed birds. Mine was the shooter. Dad was the handler for the dog and me. Once the bird was found Dad would assess and place me in an opening for the best shooting advantage. Once I was in place he moved in and flushed the bird all the while the dog would hold still. Made for some awesome shooting days of 90-100% averages. As time marched on and dad found it harder to bush wack our roles changed a bit. I should of become the flusher but I enjoyed shooting too much. So we evolved the dog's role into something that would hold still yet flush on command. Pretty much these days hunting alone I enjoy a pointer that flushes on command leaving me in a more open shooting position. Which is what I imagine a person running a flusher would do. Now you might say hey than why not just get a flusher. Well for me I just prefer the way a pointer runs over the gait of a flusher. Again not a nock against flushers just the my own personal preference.

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Absolutely good uses for flushes on command and relocating on their own. Unfortunately, this is not allowed in field trials and Grange is a field trailer too. In a field trial , the dog won't flush unless given the command, which won't happen in a field trial - must be steady to flush and shot , but will relocate , if used to doing that when needed which equals a disqualification. ( Ask me how I know. :) ) Yes, I think that rule needs to be changed, but it will never happen . :)

Of course a field trialing dog is also an excellent hunter, but you do need to go to the dog and relocate it with a touch.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Having never hunted over a pointing dog I can't offer much insight. To me that looks like a tough way to hunt, the hunter is kind of aimlessly walking around to find the bird the dog pointed. With a flusher you generally have ample time to get ready for a shot. Similar to a pointer going on point, a flusher gets birdy and more animated when it scents the bird. I can pretty much pinpoint the exact moment a bird is going to flush when hunting over my spaniel. I love watching those setters though. I may get one some day but I would want to teach it to flush on command. My reasoning for having a bird dog is that it will go into the cover that I don't want to go in myself and produce birds.

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Thanks! Very informative.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

Absolutely good uses for flushes on command and relocating on their own. Unfortunately, this is not allowed in field trials and Grange is a field trailer too. In a field trial , the dog won't flush unless given the command, which won't happen in a field trial - must be steady to flush and shot , but will relocate , if used to doing that when needed which equals a disqualification. ( Ask me how I know. :) ) Yes, I think that rule needs to be changed, but it will never happen . :)

Of course a field trialing dog is also an excellent hunter, but you do need to go to the dog and relocate it with a touch.

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And that's why field trials for me aren't that interesting as its not the way I hunt. No one will tell me this is the right way to hunt. Again not saying my way is the right way either just the way I prefer to do it.

Just don't command your dog to flush at the trial, whats the problem?

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Actually its not so much aimless looking. You should be able to read your dog and often you get that look "its over there" When done right the bird lifts, yet not so pressured where it makes a frantic escape, towards the shooter which has a nice open shot.

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Good to know. I was just going on what I saw in the videos posted - the hunter did an awful lot of walking around before actually lifting a bird. I don't think either type (flusher or pointer) is superior over the other, a good nose is a good nose. I appreciate good dog work regardless of the method.

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Originally Posted by Winchey

Just don't command your dog to flush at the trial, whats the problem?

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The flushing is not the problem.


"In a field trial , the dog won't flush unless given the command, which won't happen in a field trial - must be steady to flush and shot , but will relocate , if used to doing that when needed which equals a disqualification." quote Sh

As I said the flushing is not the problem ; the relocating is. Once the dog gets used to relocating on its own when hunting, waiting to be sent to relocate by the handler in a trial is a challenge for the dog.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

The flushing is not the problem.


"In a field trial , the dog won't flush unless given the command, which won't happen in a field trial - must be steady to flush and shot , but will relocate , if used to doing that when needed which equals a disqualification." quote Sh

As I said the flushing is not the problem ; the relocating is. Once the dog gets used to relocating on its own when hunting, waiting to be sent to relocate by the handler in a trial is a challenge for the dog.

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If your dog is trained it isn't a challenge.

Relocating in a trial is only a problem if the handler has whoa'd the dog or the handler is making a flushing attempt. A self relocation during either of those circumstances will end your run. I allow my dogs to self relocate in trials, it avoids unproductive points and allows them to pin running birds if it takes a few minutes to get to them. The biggest mistake most handlers make is they whoa their dogs as soon as the dog stops and commit the dog to standing still until released. I allow my dogs to break on their own until I get in front of them and start flushing, then they know they need to stand there. If you never let your dogs self relocate they will never learn how to hunt and distinguish between "the bird is there" and "the bird was there". If my dogs stop and I get in front of them there needs to be a bird there. It is all part of the training process and it requires a lot of wild bird contacts.


Making a pointer flush on command is easy but you better fully break him first or he will start busting birds on you before you get there. If I was going to do that I wouldn't let it flush every bird I would do some myself just to keep the dog guessing.


Cass, this isn't a slam on flusher's because you guys can get birds too, but the pointing dogs will find birds that the flusher's won't just due to the difference in ranges. A flusher's hunting range I imagine is inside 40 yds, the range of my pointers, when hunting, is up to 150 yds. When the grouse are scarce the pointers will find more birds just due to the extra ground they cover.

good point I forgot : the dog can relocate in a trial if you haven't whoa'd the dog or got in front for a flushing attempt.

so true:

"The biggest mistake most handlers make is they whoa their dogs as soon as the dog stops and commit the dog to standing still until released." quote Jakezilla

That is exactly right. I allow my dogs to relocate on their own as well. Nothing worse then beating brush for 150 yards to a point, only to find the bird ran away and is long gone. Until I have started my flush it is between the bird and the dog.

I have also been lazy a few times and didn't want to flush in some sort of rats nest or blow down or something and have had the dogs do it. Just makes it a little more difficult to keep them broke doing that all the time.

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Originally Posted by Cass

With a flusher you generally have ample time to get ready for a shot. Similar to a pointer going on point, a flusher gets birdy and more animated when it scents the bird. I can pretty much pinpoint the exact moment a bird is going to flush when hunting over my spaniel.

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Perhaps Cass or other flusher owners can chime in with some advice...

I'm on my first bird dog, a lab, which works close when I want it to; generally about 10 yards in grouse & woodcock cover. But she picks up scent a long way off, and when she gets birdy I've got to move FAST to ensure I'm in a position to shoot when she charges in. I'm not finding much time at all to get ready.

If she scents it far off would that not give you more time? If you need more time to get in position, hit the stop whistle when you see her get birdy. Then release her to flush. Does she sit to the flush?

Awesome!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sharon

As you can see by this cover , it sure helps to have a pointing breed when hunting grouse . ( I'm not talking about shooting them by sight on an open trail.)

In these videos , for those that may not know how such a dog works : The dog points; the hunter looks for the bird to put it up; no luck, the hunter goes back to the dog and sends the dog to relocate. Shot of the bird is not shown as it's hard to shoot and video at the same time. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMTN...layer_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAEd...layer_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O43X...layer_embedded

videos by Grange

Cass/Krakadawn spaniel folk:

How does this cover work with a spaniel ? Wouldn't it flush the bird before you could have a decent shot?

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The obvious factor in a trial is that if your dog self relocates, it can't bump the bird in that effort! I guess that's stating the obvious... :) Even if I'm hunting my pointer and it flushes on a relocate, I will not shoot at that bird. It is unacceptable to me personally - not the self-relocate, the flush is though.
There is no "better" breed. A good flusher is better than a poor pointer and vice versa.
We all have our preferences however I'm grateful to have had the pleasure of having hunted over wonderful dogs from both sides of the house. A good dog is something to behold. It's the same reason that I look for a gun that contributes to my hunting experience rather than one that simply goes "Boom" or should I say, "Boomboomboom" when you pull the trigger.

Just picked up a Merkel 20g SxS today.....heh, heh, heh. 2 triggers 2 booms. balances and swings sweet as hell. Back on topic, the best dog I ever hunted over is owned by a member here. Fully broke English Setter, truly a privilege to hunt over that dog. In a couple weeks I'm going to Quebec for the duck opener and will hunt over my buddy's 2 Chesapeaks. These dogs break ice in November and you could waterski behind them. My problem is I would love one of every type but my wife would kill me in my sleep. Pointing breeds for me. Love it when they slam into a scent cone.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Just picked up a Merkel 20g SxS today.....heh, heh, heh. 2 triggers 2 booms. balances and swings sweet as hell. Back on topic, the best dog I ever hunted over is owned by a member here. Fully broke English Setter, truly a privilege to hunt over that dog. In a couple weeks I'm going to Quebec for the duck opener and will hunt over my buddy's 2 Chesapeaks. These dogs break ice in November and you could waterski behind them. My problem is I would love one of every type but my wife would kill me in my sleep. Pointing breeds for me. Love it when they slam into a scent cone.

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too funny Terry!

"I would love one of every type, but my wife would kill me in my sleep. " quote Terry

I'm in the same boat. He tells me that I'd better not die first and leave him with those 3 dogs. :)

I told that if I do , just send them to Ugo - free gifts. JUst kidding Ugo. :)