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Surprised? Shouldn't be. SOP for this government to be cutting backroom deals with the people that really run this province.
"The million-dollar payout is highly unusual: The government agreed to compensate the union for the cost of negotiations because problems with the province’s new bargaining system caused talks to drag on for so long."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle26900173/
safdasfasdf
Trust me. This isn't the "only" secret payment made so far. Just one they got caught on. And really she couldn't care less if caught. How many scandals do they need to be caught on? The PANAM scam will never really be exposed as she has wingclipped the audit process. Kathleen Wynne gives us the finger everyday, every time she does anything. PS unions now run the Province.
Um how does that help the kids? Isnt that what they claimed? Talk about robbing the poor to feed themselves.Quote:
In addition, the government financed raises for teachers by diverting money from a fund for special programs that help struggling students graduate
So where are those who have long defended Unions, teachers or this administration.
Do also note the curious and suspect timing of this. One day after the election, an election where it's obvious the two (JT and Wynne) (and the Unions) are in bed with each other.
1) What have many people, Ms Wynne et al yelled long about Harpers 'secrecy"? Yet another secret deal, withheld...well atleast this time until after the election
2)Didn't JT campaing on Change?
Yep he/they are off to a roaring start
What does this back room deal possibly have anything to do with the Federal election ?????? This is totally on Wynne !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Yes its on Wynne (and the Unions and teacher) and as a good friend on my wall said this is beyond disgusting. However.
From this article, new "revelation"
From a very good National Post article yesterdayQuote:
relationship with OSSTF, in part because teachers are key members of the party’s political base and in part because no labour dispute draws more attention than those involving schools. The timing allowed the party to clear the dispute off its plate ahead of the federal election, in which Premier Kathleen Wynne campaigned hard for Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau
From the same NP articleQuote:
which was also a key aspect of his alliance with Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne, who supported him intensely
There's somuch more that might be added, however hopefully just a brief point will do.Quote:
Not all public servants live in Ottawa, and not all Ottawans are public servants, but it is a government town, and voters there all but obliterated the Conservative Party, even taking Ottawa Centre from Paul Dewar, the prominent NDP foreign affairs critic. after apush against the Tories, there is a sense the old Liberal dominance of the civil service is set to return
For a young man who sold people on "change", doing things differently, being more open, more transparent, more honest, more inclusive of everyone. Funny that he/they are in bed with, without question the most inept, corrupt admin/supporters and pandering admin, bar none in Canadian history.
And while some might prefer to suspend reality and think otherwise, or argue otherwise is like arguing Harper didn't know about $90,000.
And if still not "convinced". The simple fact this is being made public 1 day after the election........
So I guess the answer to my question is "nothing".... The union payout by Wynne had nothing to do with the Federal election.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Of coarse not Rick.
As I just added.
I suppose the fact it's being made public 1 day after the election..
Maybe I'm wording it poorly, not sure. You seem to be hung up who signed the papers, yet oblivious to the fact he was more than happy to crawl into bed with her/them despite.....oh.....so....very.....much
"crawling into bed with her "....thanks a lot, that's one vision I didn't need !!!! Lol
We need an all out revolt in this Province !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquito
Maybe Im wording it poorly, wouldn't be the first time. Im not suggesting he was part of the deal with teachers, but rather the fact he is more than happy to overlook, broker who knows with her for her and the Union support (see also PSAC in Ottawa) etc, etc, etc.
Is the typical hippcricy and more from them. If a Liberal does it it's ok. Any politican with an ounce of integrity or who was being honest about "change" would have run very far away from Ms Wynne, not hopped in the sack with her. Also outrageously funny in the final days they attacked Harper for being at an event with Rob Ford....who is out of politics unlike.....
Back to this deal.
I'd love, just love 1 teacher to defend, or whatever...Forget the 1 million palm grease which alone is brutal. Diverting money from a fund designed to help struggling kids.....for their own pockets?
At least Wynne is keeping one of her promises (to continue to legacy of Dalton McGunity). I tell you I am really starting to be numb to her shenanigans. I guess the ORPP isn't going to be going anywhere in order to pay for all of these wonderful little presents Wynnie Clause is giving out.
Dyth
Why , we had a vote, and a majority of the voters in Ontario have said, that they want a Liberal government in Ontario. Democracy in this country and province, means that what the majority of voters want is what you get. It may be wrong, but until you change the rules, that is the way we are governed. Try harder next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Says the man who
knows the system is broken (first past and more)
knows they simply buy their wins and get away with murder
Who benefitted from being part of the problem.
No, tyvm I'll continue to do the right thing which is vote against them, and "gripe" about it, talk various issues. This admis is beyond contempt.
The hiprocsy isn't lost either that many of those who don't like the griping about Ms Wynne/McGuinty or Unions are a lot of same who moaned about Harper non stop.
The day we start listening to those like you G who are saying in essence "get over it", is the day we as a nation are
"lost"
Where would Canada be today if people hadn't griped and moaned about Harper for years?
I agree to a point. What wasn't voted for was a corrupt, inept government. The corruption and outright criminal activity was not part of their platform...Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
I think people should be judged on their actions, not their speeches, give JT a chance before you condemn him. He has not done anything wrong , yet. What are you worried about , don't we all know that politicians do not always give-do what they promise during the election.
Im pretty sure this thread is in reference to the provincial gang ! As far as JT goes, I'll wait and see ...... I don't suspect it will take too long before this buffoon's true colours will be evident, and my Proudly Canadian shirt will be replaced by a paper bag over my head !!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
that part is certainly true. just as much as after the election is before the election.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
therefore, I think we won't see much (whatever side you're on) the next two years. there will be some knee-jerk reactions here and there (hopefully nothing firearm related). they will try to position themselves for another term...
Say what you want about Harper, but he really did manage to bring this country together. The voter turnout is proof of that!
70% the most since 1993.
JT got 39% of the vote, just a hair more than Harper got for his majority. Which means about 27% of people voted for him. Something some here cried about forever. Maybe you? Negative results mean squat, but...
If you actually paid attention to politics as opposed to being a troll and Liberal applologiser.
You'd know if we didn't have First Past the Post (a big problem) and instead had proportional, where MPs mattered more as well.
It would still be a liberal govt but not what your suggesting. Very close in fact. So um.......
Now back to Ms Wynne, the Unions, greasing palms and favours for getting people be they Ms Wynne or JT elected
2 days in G
He's in bed with most corrupt and inept govt ever. That is litterally killing working stiffs. See Hydro and taxes lately? More on these payoffs came out over dinner.
He's been caught telling energy corps how to lobby them.
"Change"
Lol, ok
one last "point" on these/this.
Anywhere else in the world these are called kick backs and are illegal. Not a bad gig eh, since the early years our wonderful Liberals have been paying the Unions millions, to do what their Unions Dues are supposed to do.
Millions.
These same Unions then take those kick backs and spend the same
Millions
Campaigning for them, putting up signs, pounding pavement, taking out Ads against Hudak, Harper and for Ms Wynne and JT.
**
Our tax dollars.
The next time a Teacher sends a kid home with a list of supplies parents are to provide. Blow your nose in the tissue and write that down on it and tell them to stuff it.
No wonder it was kept secret until today and no wonder they are so against having to open their books.
There are some seriously delusional people on this site!!
Next time a kid is hunger send them to the breakfast club at school, where much of the food is donated by the same people that serve it.... Teachers.....
You're right!!!!!!!!!! Guess who???????Quote:
Originally Posted by HaroldH
Next time a kid goes to school hungry, ask the parent why they are having a hard time finding the $$ in the first place? My guess is they don't earn the mean (unlike those teachers) and Maybe because they are taxed to the teeth and getting pummelled by exploding Hydro.........those very same teachers are largely responsible for the mess?
Strong rebuttal Harold and Fatri to facts.
Unions collect dues for such things first of all.
Turns out they have been getting what amounts to kick backs. Our tax dollars which are for US not THEM and certainly not to help fund their war chest. And oddly enough always seem to have millions to spend on..... what exactly? Ah yes campaigning and elections, pounding their chest and airwaves against anyone they don't like or for those who have been quite nice to them.
Maybe perhaps if instead of taking kickbacks, or offering them.
Thered be $$ for tissues, or
Let's see
Say 20million divided by 100,000 (rough approx after benefit cost)
How many more teachers?
Enough for smaller class sizes?
Don't let facts and logic get in the way. And by the way, heres a tissue ;)<<<thats wink
Sometimes the best argument is won by walking away.... :)
You can say that because YOU believe it, nothing has been proven, so it is only your opinion. Please don't tell me it is because of the contract the OPP received, that wont wash, the entire force did not vote Liberal, many of them would be looking diligently to pin something on her, or are you saying all OPP in this province are corrupt. ALL political parties have favorite lobbyists, they only want to talk to you if you won and are in power, why try to talk to the opposition. ALL political parties would be more sympathetic to lobbyists who are 'friends'. Big business supports and is more friendly to the cons. , unions to the libs. That is how our system has ended up. We are still rated as one of the best places to live , in the world. As an aside, I see many, many, over one hundred thousand dollar cars in TO , and I bet very, very, few of them are driven by union members. Being in a union does not mean you are not an average joe.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
And Harper didn't know about Duffy right G? Are really that naive?
Unions (PS ones) and private business, there are rather large differences. Not really surprised you can't see them. Then again your just a march to the Union drums no matter what kind of guy.
Heres just a couple obvious ones.
~They are employees. Name me one private business whose employees when like spoiled children they throw a tantrum, hold children hostage, use them as pawns.
~No-one forces you shop, do business with X. Try that with your taxes and you go to jail.
~Money busnisess bring in, are for their shareholders. People who don't have to buy shares, invest in it.
~Name me one business, just one who ran ads and campaigned for say Harper, or ran campaigned against JT.
~Busineses incur substantial risk, as do their employees. When things go south...
There more but I suspect........
Mean duo income Canada is 70-75K, single average is 50k, most without pensions
Not the average Joe, or do you not understand what the word "mean" is, or unless gross salary is around 50k as a single person, or as a family 70k and no pension.
for example Gord, everyone I'm sure would side with COs. They are down trodden right, not one of the favoured ones? Well we learned this year a starting CO pays around 1200-1500week (do the math). And would have great benefits, of the kind most average Joes can only dream about and pretty recession proof (relatively secure job, rare cut backs to wages, if ever)
Get some perspective Gord, its obviously lacking. I wonder why
Ever hear the expression "walk a mile". You should some day....
And sometimes Fatri its because you know these kick backs are wrong, know Unions spend millions in advertising, blah blah.And maybe Fatri its because everyone knows these Unions have had large roles in getting them elected time and again?
Maybe you don't know the chief elections officer is growing gravely concerned?
Maybe you dont know many more are looking at them (3rd party spending) as well?
Maybe the next time rather than make silly comments......at least have something?
Yeah Fatri most know there are teachers who go the extra mile.
Apparently you don't know what life is like for people who earn around the mean or less and who are getting pummelled by Taxes, Fees, Hydro, have debt like everyone else and can't save.
If you did, you might have paused long enough to wonder why many can't afford lunches all the time, or clothes for their kids...have or show some concern for them, rather than just "yourself"?
How many single moms are there out there, maybe with dead beat dads who don't pay support and earn around 40-50k ( I personally know 3)...And not ONE of them has a pension to boot.
How many kids today have parents who have lost jobs (hundreds of thousands) are still looking....Or have Average Joe parents who's mom/dad while they found a job, took one that pays a lot less...And with exploding Hydro, taxes...Obviously you didn't spare 5 seconds to think about "those" parents and why some kids go to school hungry
Meanwhile those Unions....
And just for you Gord. One ex girlfriend, two university degree's, currently employed on Bay street.
She earns close to 70,000. No support, No Pension, has a child in high school, has a mortgage. Buys her clothes and more at Walmart trying to make ends meet these days. Her job is on thin ice (TD announce lay offs this week) though she's not with TD. Walk a mile in her shoes Gord.
One last "thought" on this for the 3 of you.
Perhaps you haven't noticed the growing public anger towards Teachers. Was a time when they were actually respected...
Me, when I see friends saying things that are without basis, I argue, point out their vitriol is misdirected. Its the Unions not the Teachers or other Unions (when not teachers) members.
/whoosh
I daresay theres more public dislike, lack of respect for PS Unions these days, than "wall street bankers".
Funny that...no-one to blame but "yourselves". At one time the professions were respected. Why do you think that is?
Jben, you are coming across mean..... some of your comments are not very nice.
Sometimes Fatri it serves a point, call it "shock value", trying to get people to see the reality of what things are doing to real people. Especially the typical person. By definition the mean duo income family.
In my family I have EAs and I know Teachers as well, so yup I know what life is actually like for them to. And I'll say it, I feel "sorry for them". There is so much unwarranted vitriol being directed at them, but its not hard at all to understand why (and some maybe is warranted).
One reason, why when needed, I do the opposite and point out its the Unions not teachers, not Nurses, not COs, not...
And this Admin.
Oh and btw, anyone paying attention to Healthcare these days.
Wait times
things being delisted
800,000 people without GPs
More
Millions in kick backs for Teachers Unions...
But Healthcare?
***
Anyone who isn't "furious" about this latest, I will have arguments for them. There is no possible justification for it and really is just par for the coarse with them. And the reality is, and if needed I wil shock people back to "reality" and what reality is like for the typical person, it's these same Unions who spend millions...yes millions campaigning for them, advertising and more and have had a large role getting them re-elected, time and again. Just as they did in this last federal election.
Decided maybe a little more perspective.
I mentioned I have EAs in family. Four of them.
Anyone know what their average salary is? Its a lot less than the average Teachers Salary.
How long they have been without a contract?
How long without raises?
How what happens to them every time Teachers.....
Will they get a raise this year?
Next?
So lets review.
Healthcare is hemorrhaging, something we pay a lot of taxes for.
EAs are taking it on the chin. I believe they earn less than the "average Joe Blow".
No money for them either.
But Teachers Unions, they get millions.
*****
I don't care if some don't like some of the things, actual, factual things I point out. Don't really care if some feel differently (too each their own). There are reasons why so many out therehave a hate on for teachers (when really as I've said for years its the Unions and many have "argued" in their defense), these days it seems more than they do wall street bankers...funny that.
For years now, people have been pointing things out. And there has always been something else come along every few months. How long since the last "thing"...how long has been since the last thing before that?
As Ive said hundreds of times. Maybe, just maybe if there wasn't so much corruption, so many scandals, so much ineptitude X or Y. That thing some complain about ( people complaining about this admin and the state of Ontario)...wouldnt be as bad?
And silly comments like some of us are delusional, or Expensive cars on Bay street, or.....vs say trying to "justify" or I don't know, explain why its ok?
News flash G.
While there are those who make tons of money on Bay street. Most don't, most are regular people. Getting hammered. Without Job security ( any idea how many have lost jobs the last 8 years?)...By all means, the next time some Bay Street suit bilks the public.
Have at him or her.
You won't see me making excuses, or defending them or somehow trying to justify it.
See the difference?
JBen,Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
I don't agree with everything you said. The majority of it, sure is bang on. However, I can't agree with your statement about this all falling on the unions and the admin. Who votes for the unions? It is the teachers. Even if there is a silent majority of teachers who think the unions go too far, they remain silent. They took the raises and benefits while perhaps muttering the union was going too far. But they still took them. They were the ones who voted for the leadership of the union which now has become so brazen about asking for the government to give them a million dollars.
Who votes for the admin? It is the public. So we have to all take personal responsibility for this mess. The public has never held this government accountable for laying down in bed with the union and spreading our collective legs (and we didn't even get dinner bought for us; we had to buy the dinner). This government elected by us is giving it up like prom date. Why is everyone so surprised this is happening from a Premier who has never, never had to work in the private sector and has been working with teachers and their unions for most of her career? Santa Wynne might talk a good game but at the end of the day actions speak louder than words.
The government is making the excuse that the one million dollar "gift" (and it turns out it is a lot more than one million dollars) was because the bargaining process was held up on their end because of problems with the provinces new bargaining process. I have to ask the question why did the "bargaining process" have to change, what changes are in the new process compared to the old one and (most importantly) if this process cost us a million dollars for peace who is the sacrificial lamb who is going to be offered up as the person responsible for this new process which "caused the talks to drag out for so long" (which in itself is questionable because Sandals was to be meeting all summer long with the unions, was her phone, email, twitter account, and snail mail not working where she couldn't get in contact with the union to talk to them).
What is worse is this is a "gift" from the province so would it be taxable? Will this "gift" find its way, by donations, to the Liberal Party? Who decided this "gift" was an acceptable amount? Where was the negotiations taking place which rendered a one million dollar compensation necessary? Let's stop calling it compensation and call it was it is a bribe.
We are simply scratching the surface of this settlement. We haven't talked about the other things which we should be concerned about with this deal (such as the fact the union is going to take over administrating the teacher's benefit with help from a fund which has $5 million dollars donated to it by the government and $12 million given to it by the school boards).
So much for "net-zero".....
Dyth
Just a few thoughts Dyth.
~ Yes, we (the electorate) are responsible to. Thats one reason why I find the typical comments along the lines of ...."accept it and move on" very (not sure right word). Unacceptable.
~ yes Teachers vote for their Union brass and accept things. However, how many people do you personally know do actually stand up and say "this is wrong"....or "this is too much" or...We should take hair cuts....or...We really are over compensated (some teachers anyways, not all)...In any walk of life, private or public. Very very few. Cant blame them, or at least I won't. Just as I don't blame employees in "wall street" when their CEOs...bilk the public, or screw up and cause damage. I do know quite a few teachers, and do have EAs in my family.
Wonder how many Teachers think about what they and their Unions are doing to the EAs?
As for the rest. For years some of us have been "griping" about the Unions. Griping about this Admin, cronyism, corruption and more. I am beyond done with it. Especially when you see what its doing to
People who aren't so fortunate.
Proof is in the pudding.
There are reasons for everything in life.
Reason why for example 800,000 people are without GPs
Reasons why much of the public spews vitriol towards teachers..Why really, they are hated more than wall street bankers. :)
Reasons why JT promised to give Teachers a small tax credit (funny that)
Reasons why.....
If teachers resent why so much of the public disrespects them and the profession. Perhaps instead of blaming the public they might want to figure out why
If people are tired of all these threads...perhaps they might want to figure out why they occur in the first place.
I didn't feel it would really be necessary to bring up the other aspects (Union taking over admin, more money etc, etc). Frankly I was beyond surprised anyone had any problems with things being said in the thread, or would argue any of it at all.
If someone truly feels this and more is justifiable, or if we are delusional (see what happens when someone trolls threads) despite being "right" 9 times out of 10... or if theres some aspect we just aren't seeing.
By all means, raise those points instead of...... Most people I think are reasonable.
While EA's should be treated more fairly you can't compare the pay of a teacher to that of an EA. Teachers have 5 years of university and the costs associated with that education. EA's are college grads with a one or two year course. At the end of the day the teacher answers for what did or didn't happen in the classroom.
Teachers have it good that's not up for debate (in my mind) but that isn't the real problem. The real problem is the non-unionized portion of the workforce in Canada hasn't kept up with wage and benefit increases over the years. So we should correct the problem by cutting teacher's, OPP and Hydro workers wages until they match the non-unionized workers?
Why not try to improve the wages for the non-unionized so they don't resent workers that are paid well. The CEOs and owner of the companies will tell you that they could never pay the employees the kind of money required to make working more equitable. Ask the head of the company how many times he/she has had a raise while the workers get cut in wages.
Mike Harris and John Snobleden started this teacher bashing. The poorly paid workers have just bought into the bashing.
No Dano, no.... Raising everyone's wage to unjustifiable, unsustainable levels, just because teachers enjoy pushing for their own compensation to hit ridiculous heights, and don't want to be disliked for it, is not a sensible suggestion.
But your statement is a perfect example of how delusional most teachers are about how the real world operates.
We've already lost roughly 60% of all manufacturing in Ontario over the last 30 yrs.
The hospitality industry has grown in the number of jobs provided, but will NEVER be able to afford to pay high wages - unless we want to give up on having tourism or entertainment altogether.
We now rely almost entirely on the Services industry to push our provincial economy - which is like building on quicksand and expecting things to end well - and it also has essentially hit the ceiling of what it can pay in wages.
It's all well & good to claim that private CEOs make so much that they could take a cut and raise workers wages... But that's a joke. The number of CEOs in that stratosphere number in the tens. The vast majority of CEOs have incorporated small businesses and employ less than 50 people, and pay themselves a wage not much larger than the workers under them.
In the last 20 years private sector compensation has grown by 4% on average, while Public sector compensation has grown by VERY close to 20%. There's no justification for the PS growth, its just a result of greed & political pandering and threats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
I see you're buying the Corporate line.
We could get those jobs back tomorrow if we cut Canadian wages in half (ie. race to the bottom) which would be fine if the cost of goods and services dropped by half. Yeah right!
If you're going to compete with the world you're going to need to make the same as a world employee or less! Free trade at work my friends. Why did we go down this road? Why can't we make most goods in Canada and tariff the crap out of imports to protect our industries? It used to work until Mulroney decided to allow corporations to run the world not governments.
PS has just been receiving the wage increases that SHOULD have happened across all sectors. The fact that you're underpayed means we should all be underpayed?
BTW some people are doing VERY well in today's world judging by the new cars and cottages being built. AND they're not teachers or public employees. Could they be the people bashing the public service as they sit on their good wages (which aren't publicized on the Sunshine List ..... great way to turn people against each other).
Some people in fact many are doing exceptionally well , all you have to do is drive around out in the countryside and see the monstrous houses being built , and see the vehicles that are sitting in the driveways.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
To add to this when you find out who the owners are and what they do , guess what in many of these cases , at least on of the owners per household is a teacher, very strange.
That is funny....and not in a ha, ha way....but as in ridiculousQuote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Most private sector is NOT underpaid. Most Public sector IS overpaid. And it's the overpaid public sector that has helped push our inflation rate and costs of living through the roof.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
No interest here getting into the salaries are greener Dan. Will provide some loose general thoughts. I wasn't comparing EAs to teachers. Was suggesting given there's no money for healthcare, Drs, MNR,MoE,so many things. I might think EAs need a cup of coffee more than teachers. Priorities.
Loose thoughts
~Mean household income: 73,000
~Percentage without pension: 65%
~People lose more to taxes, than they spend on housing/food/clothing. These days 43% in taxes for the typical stiff. Back in the 60s it was around 33%
~People who earn 100,000 are in the 10-15% class.
~MS Wynne new "rich" is 150,000
~Trudeuas 200,000
I might suggest it's our govt, and Unions that are pitting people against people.
If the CEOs cut their salaries and profits and paid people in private more, or simply gave them great benefits.
Puts money's in everyone's pockets. Inflation spikes, prices go up, and within time we are exactly where we are today. Earning more yes, but paying more to.
our "economy" is completely based on inflation; there is no "growth" in our economy whatsoever. we import nearly everything. for the most part, what we do here is administration and servicing people's day-to-day needs.
inflation is a given (unless you want the bubble to burst). however, it comes at a stiff price, which is not payed equally now
and I don't want to get into who will pay ultimately during a real recession
Dan Aykroyd summed up the academic's/public sector's tendency towards fiscal delusion nicely...
https://youtu.be/RjzC1Dgh17A
Results to the private sector means, being able to profit , to make money. Most great, humanity progressing ideas, were not done for money. If that is how you judge the world, 'can we make money off of it' , well, the human race is lost.
Yeeeaaah....right.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Because patents aren't a thing right? Nobody protects their work, ensuring they're the only ones to profit from it for X period of time before others can...
Innovators don't fall all over themselves for fame and accolades, trying to build a reputation on their work in order to land A ] fat grants or B ] fat private sector contracts.
Universities don't clamor after the best and brightest to land private funding backers, and to draw students?
What shade is the sky exactly in your part if town?
You answered your own question, who would not pay to go to a university with a ghostbuster!
Well, before you condemn the private sector, you should ask who pays for purely humanitarian work - which governments don't want to afford, because they won't gain votes!Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Like it or not, but individuals do. Clearly, most made a ton of money (and as always, you don't make that much by being just a nice guy...). The list is actually pretty long (anyway you get the idea).
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/what-we-do
https://www.rockefellerfoundation.org/our-work/
My point, the same people (purely private sector) who squeeze every $ out, are often the ones who spend (certainly more than any socialist government would) without ever expecting any financial return.
Says the guy who defends PS compensation and Unions.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
No matter how it's sliced G, govts and PS gets "rich" off the backs of the middle class. Those who work hard so you don't have to. Or simply look at Ontario.
There are sooooo many studies that bear that out. You can't suck and blow at the same time.It's outrageously funny people can't see that.
Middle class. DUO 73k, most without pensions, all of them (except PS) without job security, retirement security, and very vulnerable to economic down turns, claw backs and layoffs.
And who is "shrinking" and who is growing? Or at least immune to downturns?
Too funny.
its case it's not clear. It's not private corporate greed killing them, nor robbing them. It's....
So G, now that you've made it clear the human race is lost thanks to greed, and you are a very strong champion of social concerns.
Willing to take a hit to your pension? Or salary if still working?
Thought not
I was trying to defend academia from OM,who says they are worth nothing, because they produce nothing, and I disagree.
What is "govt" (and thus every employee and ministry and every Union) except one big company?
Ps. Sometimes shock value....
;)
I find it funny how the leftys always vilify Corporate greed. What is a Corporation? An organization that employs people and produces some needed good or service. If there was no need it would disappear. If a Corporation is successful, it expands and employs more people. This generation of Socialists are "Champaign Socialists". Perfectly happy to live well off taxpayers. These are the people who give government a bad name as most PS workers are content to do their jobs well and don't feel deprived.
I might suggest Terry, that "mentality" (for lack of better words) is more a product of conditioning by the govts and Unions and even society, than it is the individuals.
I really don't understand why "lefties" think they, or their Unions, or govts are any different than what they so often complain about.
And the proof is in the pudding at least here in Ontario where so much makes so many things so crystal clear.
Today.
Dr are getting reamed (4% fee cuts 2 x 2%) in 2015 alone. And running a public sympathy campaign.
Nurses are getting reamed and running a public sympathy campaign(visit Nursesknow.ona.org). 650 let go this year alone. They claim on a Nurse to Population comparison to other provinces Ont would need to hire 17,000 nurses. Healthcare is a FIng mess and joke. They blame Harris and the sheep lap it up.
Tax the peons more?
*****
EAs are waging a public sympathy campaign on social media. Like teachers they have gone without a raise, don't have a contract. Looks to me like teachers UNIONs are screwing them.
Tax the surfs more?
The MNRF?
The MoE?
Tax the working slaves more?
Now let's look at the Debt here?
Exploding taxes
Exploding hydro
More
And who is responsible for the mess?
Wynne is giving municipalities the right to double the land transfer tax on home purchases now after clearly saying she wouldn't. Then again she gets half the take right? Making home ownership harder helps our economy how again? But the increased tax revenue translates into higher PS wages and is inflationary. Inflation helps us how again? Wynne has a majority and now has control of the Feds. God help us.
I don't know if she will have JT on a string. Time will tell. But they are certainly in bed with each other and both reward their loyal supporters.
JT
Tax Credit for those oh so hurting teachers, who have it far, far better than the typical working stiff who has to pay for their comfy lives. I blame the Unions
Yesterday announced he's pouring money into Canada Post so mail can be delivered to homes rather than community boxes...For C sakes does he not live in the world today? So why would he be doing that?
See the Journalism Unions.
The CBC
and more
Not sure how to articulate it.
Consider just these 3 things.
1)
Overy time every time theres a downturn Johnny Q gets hit, sometimes hard.
PS? Not so much....Not in terms of jobs losses or claw backs.
Then its off to the races every time it recovers. Do that many times over the decades since the 60s and its easy to see why Public "servants" have their cake and eat it to.
Job security
Benefits
higher salaries
******
2)
Ontario.
While Teachers are getting 2%, the typical stiff is losing 2% and their employers 2% (ORPP). And theres everything else like land taxes, Hydro, plate fees and much more.
3)
"Overhead"
55% of the budgets expenses goes to salary and benefits.
10% to debt servicing.
If anyone dares say boo, they get annihilated. See who has worked oh so hard to keep this admin in power despite so much. Even to the point now where
Drs are getting reamed
https://www.oma.org/Mediaroom/PressR...tiontaken.aspx
Nurses
http://www.morenurses.ca/issues-statistics/
EAs are launching a major sympathy campaign.
And so many more whoi arguably deserve some love to.
And finally last and least to them all
The lowly tax payer whose getting hammered, doesn't have a pension or enough saved and cant save.
Where taxes take 45% of their gross and 42% goes to housing/food/clothing.
Whose to blame?
Because it's payback time. Does that mean that after 27 years of owning my home in a subdivision I will be getting home delivery now? LoL....I made a funny there :joker:Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
If she is giving them the option of taxing, it means (to me) that the province won't be transferring. So much for 'helping the struggling middle class'.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Yep, its hitting the news today.
In some ways I'm laughing my back side off, as this will hammer the Golden Toronto Area the hardest. Given both its the hottest market by far (number of transactions) and price of homes in the GTA.
So when it doubles to 4% from the current 2% for homes over $400,000 (avg price in the GTA is around 600k). That's another $30,000 in taxes on a 1mm dollar home. Karma is a Bee
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/27...espite-promise
Also in the news today.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle26983218/
Karma will be a Bee there to.
Exactly what I others have been saying for years.
So really who is to blame for the utter mess to begin with .....and the "pain" Ontarians are getting hammered by. See the globe article and the solid block of Red in the GTA and Ottawa.
Still to come
Road Tolls and Carbon Taxes.
It looks like the Ontario Liberals are lining up to face the Ontario Medical Association. I was at a doctors appt. today and the usual blood pressure, weight talk... one good, one bad.... about 2 minutes. The next 10 were on the petition they have going and what the Ontario gov't is doing to doctors especially the new ones, how many were leaving the province under what the Ontario gov't is doing. They have apparently set a cap on what a doctor can earn in a year, a max. they can make and then the province won't pay them any more. So surgeons and specialist and clinics will be hit hard under this change. For example if a clinic doctor wants to put in extra hours and see more patients to earn some extra money it doesn't matter anymore they can only earn up to the max. and then they won't be paid. This should see our wait times go up, specialty clinics limit the number of patients, some offices close as doctors move to another province or the US.... pay offs for teachers, billions for windmills, a billion to close gas plants.... but an aging population and probably another 15,000+ showing up in Ontario from Syria and they decide to crack down on doctors....
P.S.
I missed JBen's links....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Read the link to the OMAs site I provided. Theres been a number of press relases the month/two with respect to what it's costing us in "healthcare". Hence why I laugh so hard when dyed in the wool Liberals bring up the ghost of Mike Harris. And keep in mind Drs kind of like teachers pay for a lot of things out of their own pockets except unlike Kleenex...like their office space, their equipment, their secretaries, etc.
Then read the Nurses page (issues and stats)..
good job "Ontario" (read the sarcasm between the quotes)
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...psig2y1hx7.jpg
I think it will be the Fed's that will bring us this gift but I could see Ontario bringing in a carbon tax while the fed's enter us into a cap and trade scheme. Either way we will be fooked once again.
So to bring this back, to buying "labour peace"....and their love in and support over the years.
Yes, the price being paid is huge. Be it the state of Healthcare, be it others like Drs or Nurses paying prices, or working stiffs (many without pensions) getting pummelled by Hydro, taxation, fees like liscence plate renewals and more. Be it the amount of debt,the sacandals and corruption, the economy, more taxes to come (Carbon or other)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle26983218/
Nice arrangement.
And good job Unions, you get to wear the goats hat. And "teachers" wonder why so many "hate" them or spew vitriol, or why the profession gets less respect these days, than those greedy wall street types.
... and for the teachers.... the bribe/payout/supplement....???? keeps growing.
Wynne Liberals can’t keep their excuses straight as bill for union payments grows
"Unfortunately for Wynne, the size of the meal keeps growing: from $2.5 million paid to three unions when the news broke a week ago, the figure quickly grew to $3.7 million, and on Tuesday was reported to be as high as $7.1 million."
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...payments-grows
Minister says the 2.5m payout to the teacher's unions was an "investment"......translated it means, the unions owe us their support !!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
$2.5m is old news...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquito
The doctors were the only group able to back Mike Harris down so maybe it's time they take a hit. What is the maximum the doctor is allowed to make?
So Wynne has cut the budget for nurses, doctors, MNR, etc. JB you want cuts you're getting cuts. What's the problem?
The Province has settled with most of the teacher's unions (I know they helped grease the settlement) but they have left one teacher's union dangling. They're going to take the elementary teachers union to the wall as they see them as the least willing to fight. Back in the day elementary teachers were primarily female and second wage earners. Do they have the resolve to strike ...... bet they don't!
The way I see it Wynne can't fight with every union at the same time. Just like in nature she cut the weakest unions out of the herd. Next time up she might tackle the OPP or Hydro or OSSTF. She can't wage a war on all fronts.
Can't be an accident that the sectors that are getting cut have had their bargaining rights limited by declaring them "essential services"! Soon we'll all make McD wages and they'll be nothing to fight about. Ain't free trade great! Thank you Brian Mulroney.
With several pending OPP investigations still on there is no way this government will "not" cave to OPP demands. No way. Not gonna happen.
I'm very glad I'm not teaching now. Not being able to do extra curricular, not being able to meet with parents , no mid term report cards would have kept me awake all night. The union was a great help to me during a very difficult situation , but would be embarrassing for me to see them keep asking for more and more money.
( Yes I know what you think Mr. Ben :) )
Well Dan.
For starters Healthcare is something we pay a lot of taxes for. Want some horror stories? Real ones?
Lets start with 14 months and 2 botched biopsies before my tumour was diagnosed? Then four more months waiting and waiting and waiting with a ticking time bomb in my head. I know regular poster here that went through something similar. My co-worker who was misdiagnosed as being terminal and given 2 years? Only to pay around 20,000 fly to the US and get properly diagnosed?
Lyme desease?
People dieing waiting for….
800,000 without GPs
Where to stop on this one,
Like seriously.
Perhaps if they were at all competent, weren't so corrupt and or hadn't lavished their bedfellows so much (those who have been richly rewarded over the years) perhaps……. Im not sure why that subtle nuance is lost on you.
Can it be accidental that ministries without powerful Unions, be they COs, lowly janitors, Doctors (who aren't unionized) and others are the ones paying prices?
Perhaps if teachers weren't so greedy, weren't so self important and hadn't been a large player in getting this govt elected time and time and time again.
Others wouldn't be paying steep prices. Be they
COs
EA
Nurses
Doctors
and finally the lowly tax payer.
Don't forget that prior to 2010…teachers were lavishly rewarded in the first place, which led to the infamous "hold the line" uttered by good old Dalton. And the very least the writing has been on the wall for years. But see also Drummond
Remind us all who your Union has worked so hard to elect?
No-one to blame but yourselves. Now in my real world Ive tried to teach my children to take responsibility for their actions and decisions. Seems like that simple life lesson hasn't been taught to teachers or their Unions anyways.
****
Not sure why some don't get that.
So the next time EAs get stiffed because there no money
or Nurses get laid off because there no money
Or Drs flee to the US because theres no money
Someone waits months for a pacemaker
Someone dies on a gurney because there are bed and nurse shortages because theres no money
or taxes go up……How many now?
hydro?
How many more to come?
Thanks "Dan"
Im just curious.
And some things there is no sugar coating.
Prior to 2010 the love Dalton heaped on some is quite well documented.
By 2010 the writing was on the wall what with the scandals just until then (E-Health, ORNG, stupid amounts of waste and stupid spending) and the recession was in full force.
They had to hire Drummond to tell them what most knew.
Enter 2011 and blowing smoke up people back sides, war drums and more campaigning by the same Unions, "hold the line" on spending….and then bang, on the eve of the election everyone thought they were going to lose, especially because the oh so hard off teachers were up in arms and he was losing some support….… 1.1billion to save 5 seats in the GTA
How many threads here predicting PS wouldn't like it when the rooster came home to roost?
And obviously still…..
2014
Credit downgrades and threats of more to come.
Sluggish economy (very little spent on Johnny Q)
More BS and fear mongering from PS Unions (Hudak is going to blow up hospitals)
More scandals, more waste, little being done about jobs
Rural Ontario decimated by job losses (manufacturing and more) and peons taking Hydro on the chin
More love for Teacher Unions (500mm worth) and 8.5% for the Opp
More Unions banging drums
So fine you made your bed and crawled into bed with them yet again.
Deal with it, stop asking everyone else to. They can't afford you and certainly don't have it quite so nice. See all the sympathy campaigns for teachers, EAs, Nurses, Drs.
What you don't think the lowly tax payer hasn't been hit hard enough.
No-one to blame but this admin which is so obviously inept and corrupt
Those who campaigned hard for them spent millions despite so much, warnings from Credit agencies, the likes of Drummond and more…Those who accepted all the vote buying (GTA and Unions)
As for this latest, the kick backs.
Please.
Proof is in the pudding.
Meanwhile Healthcare is hemorrhaging, Nurses are getting reamed, Drs nd well pretty much everyone.
Globe's reason for spiking story damning to Wynne, Trudeau a "bold faced lie"
The first scandal involves the Wynne government's secret payments to teacher's unions and the secondary scandal involved the Globe & Mail's decision to hold off publishing the story until after the election.
Ontario's version of ADSCAM?
http://www.therebel.media/ray_heard_..._story_damning
Well there can be no mistaking the timing. It was deliberate for reasons.
Blame the Unions.
Not teachers (thuogh they do elect their unions and more). Not nurses or Drs or poor Johnny Q they all seem to forget about, and whom they must all think have endless amounts of $.
And this admin.
There are soooooooo many problems, areas that could use $ or a cup of coffee. Writing was on the wall back in 2010.
I can't imagine what it's like for a family around the middle. By definition who combined earn what most single teachers earn for 3/4 of a year.
With Hydro exploding, taxes, can't save (no wonder) and no pensions. Sluggish economy, many still getting laid off or stressing about it, while are other pretty safe counting the days to freedom 55. Busting their backsides so some don't have to.
Couldn't agree with you more Sharon. I coached the whole year in 2000 when the union said we shouldn't but they wouldn't stop us from coaching. I really liked teaching but I lived for coaching and the outdoors club I supervised. It's not fair that the union goes after extracurriculars right off the bat rather than a strike action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
JBen I can't think as fast as you type! :) I have horror stories about the the health system too. Not as life-threatening as your experience I'll acknowledge.
I'm not trying to cop out but think about this. How successful has the ANY government been in dealing with the large unions (teacher's included)? Not very , right? So as a teacher I do have a vote in these unions and they are somewhat democratic but at the end of the day the Union has it's own momentum. Teacher's do ask questions and often disagree with the Union but it falls on deaf ears usually.
BTW your comments are becoming more and more personal so this is my last post on this thread.
Take a breath JBen! It's not worth stroking over.
Lol, not stroking Dan. A more accurate term might be incredulous that people could in any way "defend" the goings on.
And when you come back with a sarcastic, non sensical reply such as
What kind of reply do you expect? You reap what you sow. Not unlike your Unions.Quote:
So Wynne has cut the budget for nurses, doctors, MNR, etc. JB you want cuts you're getting cuts. What's the problem?
You might note the following replies, replied in kind and for the record, answered. "Whats the problem?"
Lots of them..See Ontario
Not the least of which, is its your Unions that have had a very large hand in creating the mess (see prior to 2010) and see who spends millions and more.... And now you (they) don't like it.
Deal with it.
This and these problems that are heaping a lot of pain on everyone (least of all Public Service ) are what you (they) wanted.
Don't cry now as they do, and you might recall every strike, every job action heaps even more burdens on parents and kids, especially those who are finding it harder and harder to make ends meet, you know people who have it nowhere near as good as you nor with the same kind of security? thanks to your Unions and their decisions to campaign hard for this.....
Is that so hard to understand?
Tell me Dan whats more important
2% raises and kickbacks
Or 800,000 without GPs for starters?
And the one good question
How much success has any govts had wth them? Not much. That's always been a problem that has led to bending to them. Caving.
So that right there suggest Unions are placed before the public more often then not. Last I checked there's more than just them...
And since Bob Rae it's gotten worse. And their political involvement in the democratic process (see campaigning, attack ads, contributions) is getting worse, witness this past Federal election.
And now what is virtually inarguable blatant corruption (kick backs). And who is paying for it?
Hence the beef with Unions.
Sooner or later,this whole "Liberal" thing is going to come completely off the rails. It MUST. It's a rule of economics that applies to ALL things where finance is involved. There WILL be one hell of a reckoning. It's just a matter of time and it won't be long,now.........
So true !Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
JT inherited an economy that is basically in the black from Harper. He will now plunge it back into the red to help/payback Wynne who got him elected in Ontario. So, expect at least 2 mandates for JT and that will mean more money for Wynne to grease teachers, OPSEU and other PS that get her elected. I see 8-10 years of downward spiral for everybody not on the public payroll when you factor in rising costs in Ontario like Hydro, carbon taxes, pension plans and any other "revenue Tool" they dream up. Wynne is even more protected after this Federal election.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Russia and China will be drilling in our Arctic waters within months. JT will kill the F35 deal and 5 years from now buy likely inferior planes for more money than the original deal just like Cretien did with helicopters. he will kick the can down the road on updating 30yr old planes and up up paying more than originally committed to. Liberals as a rule hate the military and are willing to pay billions in cancellation fines to make that clear. Wynne can't help but giggle and laugh out loud now that her credit card has no limit anymore. Ontarians will vote her back in again.
Liberals and JT will be attacked on two primary fronts,first,by Russia in the Arctic who will simply thumb their noses at him making him and his government look like complete idiots and economically when interest rates rise (as they most certainly will) and over-mortgaged Canadians start losing their homes just like the Americans did (still having a terribly tough time recovering). Like someone posted before,I hope the first ones to lose their shirts are Liberal supporters. My a** is well covered,so,they don't need to come crying to me. Fack 'em!
Logically yes, but look at Toronto's house prices and you see that bubbles can float way longer than they should.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
If they play it right (and the media will help them once again to report red "successes" and everyone else "failures"), we could see them doing a second term
http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto...miss-the-point
So good old Liz trotted out this gem of a quote:
“I can remember an occasion during the Mike Harris government where his people called in school boards and unions,” she said, “and do you know who paid for the hotel? Mike Harris’s government.”
So yes the Mike Harris boogeyman train is alive and well at Queen's Park. However, there a few things I would like to say about the difference between then and now. One, Mike Harris probably didn't have to reimburse them a million dollars for a single night in a hotel room. Two, Mike Harris didn't get the benefit of a nearly $3 million dollar campaign against his main rival from the unions/school boards. Three, if Mike Harris had donated to a teachers union that amount of money, it wouldn't have been ok.
Dyth
Well here's a doomsday kind of scenario, based on current things, projected things and if a few winds come together and create a perfect storm.
-people are getting hammered (taxes, Hydro etc). Known fact
-people have too much debt. Known fact...I think statistically these days its 167% of income
-We are all hoping for the day the economy picks up...Great, however when that occurs we can probably expect higher Interest Rates.
So, with higher cost of living and higher taxation, people have less disposable income to pay down all that debt. Rates will rise someday....
We have our wonderful leaders now talking about land transfer tax increases. Given the cost of housing these days those are big dollar amounts.
There is a lot of speculation about the Toronto Real estate market, Condos and foreign speculative investment. Many expect a correction, some a crash. China is the elephant in the room many don't like to talk about economically.
Perfect Storm
Rates start taking off, people who are struggling and who have too much debt start bailing on houses, hoping to downsize reduce debt. Possibly some are being forced to, it wont take much of a rate hike to push people over. Any gains the peons are seeing in wages are being far, far outstripped by Hydro, Taxes increases. ORPP alone will be stripping another 2%...How many people are getting 2.5% wage increases? Let alone Hyrdo, carbon taxes, blah blah blah....
Buyers are becoming scarce because
1) Rates are going up and few want to take on more debt.
2) Land transfer taxes mean those high priced homes mean a kick in the gonads..
Housing market reacts even more, people really want to or need to sell
Foreign investors in the hot condo market also start bailing...
It gets worse......becomes a fire sale just like the US in 2008.
Wiping out tens and tens of thousands of peoples home equity, retirement nest eggs.
***************
Do I think the back lash is inevitable. Yep I do. More and more people are getting sick of the Unions and this party or both combined. Really do think its just a matter of time and depending on things it could make Mike Harris look like a saint.
Now that it's in the media she wants receipts ! Wow how tough of her? First the government said they didn't need them since they know what pizza and hotel rooms cost but now, surprise they want receipts. I want to see the pile of pizza and hotel receipts to add up to what $7 million now? This should almost be funny to watch. Get the Auditor General on this ( no point handing it to the OPP :ninja:) and at least it might hit the media. But in the end its just another coincidence that the money she gave unions is about how much they spent in the campaign to get her elected right? Nothing to see here folks...move along. Can you imagine the corruption that will be involved when she sells/gives away Hydro to her select few investors? Can you imagine the corruption/grease involved if ever the PANAM games get properly audited?
Until there's a change in government,we'll never know because it's for damn sure the media will never report it.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I think we are doomed to years of Librano rule. When you have the public sector as well as the police paid off and no laws to prevent election buying then you are basically screwed. Get used to listening to Wynne say platitudes about "conversations" while her operatives pillage the Province.