We're all hearing abut the deer numbers are down, and I'm not posting this thread to judge people but why are hunters harvesting fawns? As hunters do we need to do more on conservation let these fawns get older.
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We're all hearing abut the deer numbers are down, and I'm not posting this thread to judge people but why are hunters harvesting fawns? As hunters do we need to do more on conservation let these fawns get older.
A fawn without its mother stands little chance of surviving a winter considering predators, etc. Thats my take on it.
Fawns taste good :)
But I guess it depends on the area and what you are seeing. It could be as simple as having 15-20 on the next farm or just over the other hill and not knowing or seeing them.
If there truly were no deer in a WMU then a antlerless tag wouldn't be issued. I like to think the MNR knows what they are doing and we just don't or can't see the bigger picture.
Years ago, before Bob Rae fracked Ontario, this would have been true. Now that they've been gutted and have no budget I'd guess their management plan is based on the Mandatory Controlled Hunt surveys that everyone fills out to suit their own agenda, and info on deer/vehicle collisions for specific areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Thats my take on it also. That and the scouting and knowledge of your area yourself. I dont believe doe tag hand outs are based on sientific information for years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by be2man
Actually that isn't totally accurate- there have been a number of studies related to fawn survival after the doe has been killed. many of these studies show that a fawn will bond to other mature does in the area and in turn are taken under their wing so to speak and survival rates are fairly high when this happens. In my case I will not shoot a fawn or a doe with a fawn or any buck under three and a half, but to each their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Boiler
It's really no more of a waste then shooting any deer...I am looking for some meat and I would wait on a fawn for something bigger but if time is running out...guess whose gettiner
They taste the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by lubahunter
They are the dumbest.
They might be male or female.
Their chances of reviving a first winter is lower than an adult.
Who said the number are down, hunters that couldn't fill their tags? Plenty of deer in 60, 46 and 53. If you didn't fill your tag in those area either you did something wrong or it's just the way it goes some year, nothing to do with deer number been low.
You questioned about shooting fawn but not doe, doesn't make much sense to me, can you explain?
Hunter impact on the deer is marginal. I think (in round numbers) the MNR estimates 400,000 deer in Ontario and they estimate that hunters harvest about 100,000 in the annual cull....so in rough terms hunters affect maybe 25% of the population.
Also, consider due to the tag allotment system, the largest percentage of that 25% is antlered bucks, so even fewer does/fawns are taken.
Whether you take a fawn/doe/young buck has relatively no implications as far as Deer Management considerations.
Hey Seabast,
From the site everyone here saying that they're not seeing any deer and talking to other hunters. I was at Sail the other day bunch of guys braging about shooting fawns, didn't understand why that is. Not much meat on a fawn. I dont see the point shooting a fawn. I hunt WMU 47 this year saw a total of 17 does and fawns within 2 days I was there. I had them within 30-50 yards from me. I decided not to take the shot. Rather hunt 3+ years old. Just my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Well last year I waited in the cold for two full weeks to get lucky and harvest a decent buck.This year I set out with the same plan and passed on basically large fawns three times.After sitting most of the second week in the rain and cold coming home I decided the fawn standing in front of me was coming home with me.I could have passed and gambled for a buck that was sniffing around and maybe even have got him the last day,but the signs were not looking good very few shots heard and the weather turning,I decided to get some meat.
For me its easily justified, the effort I put into picking and hauling hundreds of pounds of apples,the food plots I hand dig,the work on trails and tree stands and all the other stuff most of us do to ensure a successful hunt.
It was also easily justified when I was in the Hamlet the night before and had five beautiful deer walk in front of my van at the local beach and then saw another on a lawn.I believe the deer are around in good shape and in good numbers but mostly in the town where they are better fed and away from the local wolves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lubahunter
So you see 17 deer in 2 days and you claim numbers are down? So its not so much about conservation as your desire to shoot a big rack. Now that's a bit different don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by lubahunter
In areas where there is significant winter losses, a fawn is the least valuable deer in the herd (in fall) in that they are most vulnerable to winter losses. Also, slightly more than half the fawns are bucks - so taking one is no different from taking a spike or mature buck (except there's a lot less meat and antlers).
Shooting does, especially mature ones is very, very bad for the deer herd, especially after harsh winters when you are hoping the herd will bounce back. Mature does have more fawns and are more successful at raising them than young does.
Shooting bucks - fawns, spikes or mature - has an insignificant effect on the deer herd unless you get to the point that there are not enough bucks around to do the breeding - IIRC, that's when the b:d ration hits 10 or 12 to 1. Not likely in Ontario.
I'd disagree with that. Ontario deer mortality is primarily from hunting. Your stat that it affects only 25% of the herd is misleading. The stat you want too look at is what percentage of mortality is caused by hunters - and that is significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Much of southern Ontario (where winterkill is not significant) is well aware that what hunters take (does in particular) has had an effect on the deer herd there over the last 10 years.
That's a good summary of the situation, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
I'm confused....Quote:
Originally Posted by lubahunter
There is no deer but you see 17 does and fawns....
You care about conservation but you would raiser shot a 3 years old + doe or buck instead of an yearling....
With a fawn you end up with roughly 30lb of prime meat, it's not bad at all for 50$.
Two differnent topics...my stat is just pure math from the Harvest; simply 400,000 - 1000,000 = 25%Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
The numbers your taking about is deer mortality, and yes hunters kill closer to 50% of the deer that died
study from Wisconsin; "The rates of mortality were human hunting 43%, starvation 9%, coyote 7%, wolf 6% and roadkill 6%".
(note: they don't mention disease...must be the remainder)
Point is that taking a fawn in an area has little impact on Deer Management....so to say you hurt the herd by killing a fawn is not true.
This is the same argument we have with Moose calf harvest,isn't it? OMNRF has found it necessary to curtail calf harvest in all of Ontario north of the French River to a two-week period. Now,I'm sure not a biologist or anything,but,to my little pea brain,it seems absolutely logical that when adding hunting pressure to predation by Bears,Wolves and Coyotes,something has to give,sooner or later. All we're doing is killing off next years hunting,then,we whine and bi**h that the Deer and Moose herd population has tanked. Our pidgeons are coming home to roost.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Everybody's ethics are different. If you have an antlerless license you are good to go and shoot any deer you see in your WMU. I have no issues with people hunting fawns.
But also the point is, you better shot a fawn than a 2 or 3 years old doe (if you care about conservation).Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
While I disagreed with other parts of your comments, you are correct about "Point is that taking a fawn in an area has little impact on Deer Management....so to say you hurt the herd by killing a fawn is not true."Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I agree Trimmer21.
All we're doing is killing off next years hunting,then,we whine and bi**h that the Deer and Moose herd population has tanked.
Other hunters in 47 that I spoke to, said the numbers have declined. Luckly were I was, there were deer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
What is the issue with management of deer in Ontario? NB and NS and I hear Quebec are booming.
No food = no deer If your area does not have any food then it cant hold deer. I think the province in general holds a healthy deer population. Some areas have more pressure or tags so there is a dip but it will bounce back.
I remember at my camp a couple of very experienced hunters thought my area would only hold 3-4 deer. The next year we shot 12 and 11 were bucks and there was some missing too. The year after 10. They owned 200 acres near me me (30 minute drive) and gave up on it after a couple years because no sign of dear.
Who knows but meat is always on special at the groceries.
Its a personal choice.I choose no t to shoot fawns or does with fawns
That's totally different. With moose, the system up until now allowed for many times more calves than adults to be killed: only one in every X number of hunters (whatever the large group size in the WMU is) can kill an adult, but every single hunter can kill a calf, and has the same amount of time to do it. So a group of 7 sharing a bull tag can legally kill 6 calves and a bull, and people who aren't even in groups with a tag can also have a calf each. Now they've tweaked it a bit to reduce calf harvest but there's still a lot more allowed calf harvest than adult harvest. In other words the problem with moose wasn't that calves were being killed instead of adults, it was that so many moose -- when you include those who happened to be calves -- were being killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
With deer the system does not make it easier to tag a fawn than an adult; on the contrary it's a little harder, since anyone can tag an adult buck in any WMU but you need a WMU-specific antlerless tag for a fawn, and unlike with moose, tagging a fawn will use up a tag that could have been used on an adult. No one on this thread is suggesting making more tags available specifically for fawns.
As more knowledgeable people than me on this thread have already explained, there's nothing particularly harmful to the deer population about killing a fawn instead of an adult; if anything it's less harmful. It's just that some people might find it more "wasteful", since you get less meat with the same number of deer killed. But that's really in the eye and belly of the hunter. If you'd rather take the fawn that offers a perfect shot halfway through the season than take your chances at maybe getting a last-chance buck and maybe getting skunked, I see nothing wrong with that.
fawns do taste the best, if I am hunting the controlled hunt, and we have anterless tags, and with a group, ill shoot the fawn before I shoot the does.
i'll take a fawn if i need to for a variety of reason. (i don't trophy hunt, i sometimes don't need the amount of meat that comes with a 300lbs buck, maybe it's the last day of season and that's all i see and i need the meat...etc, etc...)
but let me ask this question to anyone opposed to hunting fawns, are you also opposed to the calf hunt??? cause if you aren't then you need to review how you judge things.
Ontario has been trying to reduce the deer population since about 2005 or so, and has been handing out tons of doe tags. The management strategy has worked and our deer pops are likely back to where they were in the early/mid 1990's. Problem is we now have a generation of deer hunters who knew only of high deer pops and think that every day in the bush should result in multiple sightings and opportunities. Sure it's worse than the early 2000's now, but historically, its still pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
MNRF limits fawn harvest via anterless tags. Its not "up to us" to do anything about it. Theyve determined a figure which they are comfortable with and issued tags to that effect.
Winter. Theres not much to it besides that. Ontario was booming three years ago after a couple easy winters, now its swung the other way with a couple hard winters
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
NB has had just as massive winters in fact much worse then Ontario the past few years and there herd is doing quite well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Fawns have much more meat and taste just as good the next year. One thing is guaranteed in that if you shoot a fawn, buck fawn or young buck you will never get the chance to see that deer's potential, either reproductively or genetically (trophy quality) regardless of the overall effect on the herd.
As usual, well thought out and making perfect sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
A fawn is the perfect amount of venison that I consume in one year. A large buck is way too much meat.
I would shoot a fawn in my area. They do taste better. I prefer a young deer for meat quality.
My take on this is if i have a doe tag and see a doe and a fawn i would take the fawn. My reasons are the doe can reproduce the following year; the fawn cannot, the doe can survive the winter; a fawn has less of a chance. I also prefer quality over quantity.
I am not a trophy hunter nor a meat hunter, i harvest what is presented to me and if i can make an educated decision in the process i will.
Kept hearing about fewer deer this year. Possibly because of new neighbours who either hunt or allow hunting on 600 acres next to ours. That land had always been "preserve". Then we looked at pictures from a camera taken last night and today....3 small doe/fawn, one huge doe, 3 antlered of various sizes, one with ten tips.....
I am still after my first deer and have an antlerless tag in my pocket, so what ever I see, Doe or Fawn and I get a good ethical shot I will take it.
I think the issue is actually quite simple.
If you are concerned about the deer population in your area, shoot only bucks and fawns. Leave the does alone.
Some fawns can reproduce .. hence the Dec 1st hunt or the 2nd rutQuote:
Originally Posted by Quack_Kills
I agree, except I would go to the point of saying only bucks and fawns with buttons, a female fawn this year becomes 2 deer next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by justinmch
Mind you all this may change on the last day; but so far all does and fawns have walked by me.
There's nothing wrong with shooting fawns. I really don't understand the shame (or shaming) that seems to follow shooting them. Some of the fawns that I've shot stand out in my memory more so than anything else, big bucks included.
One was my first "Northern deer", running full tilt in front of the dogs. It was with a doe but I only had time to get the sights on the deer in the lead, which ended up being the fawn. In that particular camp, I think it was only the 4th time I had ever actually seen a live deer. Pretty sure I was 21 and that was probably my 10th year of "hunting" for the week of rifle season. The first few years were just sitting on the watch with my Dad. I had shot other deer around home by then but your first "Northern deer" is a special one.
Another was about 5 years ago. It was public land, heavily pressured, two weeks of rifle season and one week of ML season had already passed. The deer were almost entirely nocturnal. I had set up bait and a really well-hidden ground blind 30 yards away. The way things were set up, I only wanted to open one window in the blind. I spent many hours over many days staring out that one little window when finally, in the last hour of daylight near the end of December, a deer stepped out to the bait. 30 yards is my maximum comfortable distance with a crossbow but I made a good shot. When I found the deer, I realized that it was a button buck. I thought it was a doe when I pulled the trigger but I had worked pretty hard for that deer and I was just as happy with the fawn.
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that if makes you happy and it's legal, shoot a fawn and be proud of your accomplishment. If you take no satisfaction in shooting a fawn, then don't. If you want to pass and extend your season in hopes of tagging a bigger deer, then do it. But all of this talk of "managing the herd" as hunters is pretty unrealistic. Unless you're talking about large tracts of private land, passing on legal deer in the spirit of management is only creating an opportunity for the next guy when that deer hops the fence to the next property, or wanders a couple of hundred yards across crown land into another guy's setup.
Shoot what makes you happy. Save the management decisions for those who get paid for it.
Good post GW11
x10. No shame what so ever in taking a fawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
A fawn is a legal deer and nobody should be ashamed of killing one. Right now our herd at the camp is beyond depressed so we don't even shoot does and likely won't for the next 5 years. But if our numbers were up we would take them. I won't shoot a doe with a fawn but would not hesitate to take a fawn. The doe likely will give at least one fawn the next year and possibly 2 fawns. The fawn if it survives the winter usually won't produce a fawn itself. The fawn will consume as much "scarce" winter feed as a fawn producing doe. This whole macho gotta kill a trophy buck mentality will be the end of hunting. I blame Wildtv for this mentality where they only shoot well fed and protected private land deer.
From my perspective it actually helps in depressed area's. ie: We had a guy leave our camp to go to another camp because we weren't 'serious' hunters. At his new camp he went into a drought for the next 5 yrs without killing a deer because he could only shot 'Trophy' Bucks (camp rules). He ended his dry spell last year when he thinks a young 4 point he passed on a couple of yrs back developed into a nice 8 point (the camp minimum) so it was OK to shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
As a result of that camps rules...a rather large area where it's located, the doe/fawn population goes untouched, this makes excellent hunting on the surrounding properties. Even the not ready to shot bucks wander away during the rut, less competition, and they get gladly hunted by other locals.
Unless of course Terry you meant, the controversy surrounding the whole concept of Trophy Hunting will be the end of hunting, then I agree...the YubeTube videos will eventually see our privileges withdrawn.
Well said terry. I haven't even applied for an antlerless tag for at least 5 years. Prior to that I had several I didn't use that I had ample opportunities to fill. Maybe if the herd rebounds well I may use one somewhere down the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I also have no qualms tagging a fawn, easy to handle alone, easier on the herd, and quite tender and tasty.
Yes that's what I mean. Harvesting only bucks from a population standpoint will increase the herd, not what I'm getting at. Look everybody is entitled to their own reasons for hunting but this growing trend of looking down on hunters who kill does and fawns will only help the anti hunters who show trophy hunting as a negative thing. I actually don't think trophy hunting is bad at all but it shouldn't make the rest fell like they are doing something negative for shooting tasty young deer.
Given a choice as I had last year between doe and fawn, I'll take the fawn every time if the shot is good. They do taste the best IMO.
I don't think there is anything wrong with shooting a fawn. I have said this before, I won't take a fawn early in the year. I have a lot of time and I can get less picky as the season goes on. That is my personal preference. I wouldn't force it on anyone as I wouldn't expect anyone forcing the fact they don't shoot fawns onto me. At the end of the hunting season, a little bit of meat in the freezer is better than hanging a tag on the Christmas tree.
Deer are prey animals. While I understand the sentiment of guys passing on fawns this year will mean more meat on them next year, there is no guarantee that fawn will make it through the next three seasons. It could get snapped up by coyotes, another hunter, hit by a car, die of starvation/disease/parasites or some other event which may end it's life. Letting it walk doesn't guarantee it's safety in the world. A coyote wouldn't necessary pass on a fawn, why should we?
If you are at that time in your hunting career where you are targeting only big bucks. Great. However, shaming the guys who drop a fawn (it isn't all big buck hunters mind you) because they killed a legal deer which doesn't meet some kind of individual scale of acceptance is wrong.
I've shot fawns does little bucks medium bucks and large bucks.
its your tag and as long as the landowner wishes shoot whatever your heart desires just remember your gonna hunt there next year too and no one is more responsible for managing the deer herd where you hunt than the guy on the trigger.
personnaly fawns and the big boys are what I shoot. Fawns for tender chops, big bucks for Hamburg and sausage.
my herds stable so I don't shoot does if I gets overpopulated we will adjust accordingly
A slight over simplification but:
You shoot a fawn, and that is one less deer in the population next spring.
You shoot a buck, and that is one less deer in the population next spring.
You shoot a doe, and that is 3 less deer in the population next spring. The doe, plus its 2 offspring that didn't get born.
Out of the fawn, the buck and the doe, the fawn was also the least likely to survive the winter had it not been shot.
There's only a 50% chance the fawn is a female, so only a 50% chance it will have 2 offspring the 2nd spring after the hunting season.
If you wanna get more complicated and go two years out:
You shoot a fawn, and that is statistically 2 less deer that will be in the population 2 years later. The fawn, plus 1 offspring it will never end up having. (The fawn will have 2 offspring the 2nd spring if it's female, but zero if it is male so averages out to 1).
You shoot a buck and that is 1 less deer in the population two springs later.
You shoot a doe and that is 5 less deer in the population 2 springs later. The doe, + 2 fawns it would have had the first spring, + 2 more fawns it would have had the 2nd spring. Additionally the two fawns (one male and one female) the doe would have had the first spring, would bet set to add two more deer to the population come the 3rd year.
Of course this ignores predation, hunting, starvation. But you can see that hunting fawns is not killing the future of the herd. It is much closer to shooting a buck in terms of its overall effect on the population.
Couldnt have said it better Larson!!! I've tried to get the same scenario across to many individuals, mostly to no avail. A few people over the years have told me about shooting a doe and then have to chase triplet fawns away,no bigger than a dog. The same individuals are the ones that think it taboo to shoot a fawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larson
Late season bow hunting, I am only interested in a buck better than any I already have,or a button buck,IF, I take one at all.
A bunch of guys I know likely took 20 does, a number of years ago, between gun hunt and late season bow hunt in two seasons. The same bunch lament the lack of deer currently in their area. It's not rocket science to figure out, imo.
Simplification…. you may not be able to even hunt next year, this might very well be your last day hunting, ever, shoot whatever you want… K.I.S.S.
passing up on opportunities leads to regrets...
Just make sure that you won't get caught (by your wife) or you will regret it even more . --- Lol .Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I have, will and do , Mike, IF and WHEN i choose to. My choice when, my choice if , and my choice not to, mine and mine alone !! I let a decent 8 pointer walk the second last day of gun season this year!! I have passed on numerous decent bucks with both bow and gun!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
WHY??? Because it's my choice!!! I don't have to (harvest) a deer every year to be happy , or have a picture to show or whatever. And you know what??? My test tickles are still the same size, lol. Absolutely no regrets whatsoever on any deer I have passed on.
PS. Forgot to me that is still k.i.s.s. Each to their own,live and let live , honour fellow sportsmans choices and passions and quirks, as long as they are all above the law, irregardless of whether you agree or disagree!!!
I'll shoot a fawn every chance I get. They make for an easy drag back to the car and there's enough meat on a fawn for myself.
Rreally???Quote:
Originally Posted by bushman
One of mine is bigger than the other, maybe I should start passing on more deer :eek: ....
Never actually checked to see if they are the same size Rugger , could be they ain't identical twins lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger
Just know they don't get bigger if I shoot a huge buck or smaller if I shoot a fawn. You know what I'm saying!!
Well I'll be damned.???
On a much more somber note; when you have a team mate and gifted athlete die of testicular cancer at the age of 27, you start to pay a little more attention to your body (Movember message for the year).Quote:
Originally Posted by bushman
But, yes I totally agree with your sentiment on machismo, it really is a stupid concept, especially when applied to something like hunting.
I hear ya. My doctor checks me out on my annual physical. And I do also. But you got my drift and where I was going with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger
Sorry for for the loss of your team mate.