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Found out from a fellow outfitter, who was at a NOTO workshop, that one of the new potential bait regulations will be that 1-each bait will have to be marked as a bear bait site. 2-This is along with only 10 kg's of bait, 3- only baiting 2 weeks before the hunt start and 4- must hang the baits.
Good way to tell anti bear hunters where to harass you while hunting.
If your trying to keep human scent to a minimum, will it be compromised by CO's checking up on your site to see if it's legal??
So,if OMNRF came along and said "OK.,boys,no more baiting....period." What do you think would be our alternatives,Chris?
and this question is what scares me!!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Then very few hunters will hunt bears and bear population will explode!! No baiting will be counter productive to their problem of " Too Many Bears".
no baiting will cause more cubs to be orphaned...
But... I will take what they give us.
With these new rules only bear hunters will be locals and outfitters. They just killed the bear hunt for more than half the bear hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
Because of the new rules many outfitters will opt out of any bear hunt, spring or fall. Many residents will follow suit.
Outfitters with established baits will still see bears come to their baitsites even with bait amount restrictions.
But their biggest complaint by far will be the added expense of having to bait more often because of these restrictions and this is a serious issue as some outfitters drive upwards of 75 plus miles to tend their baits.
Why would they check your bait site? On private property, no one will know. On crowns, either obey by the rules or be smart about it and CO don't have extra time so if there is no complaint they probably won't know.
Are you suggesting , that as responsible bear hunters, we not follow the rules, say it an't so.
What exactly does must hang the bait mean? A 45 gallon drum bolted to a tree 2 ft in the air?
NET ZERO! Isn't it so much like a "progressive" government to re-institute a Bear hunt,then,make everything around it so restrictive that it's impossible to accomplish. That's the "old carrot and stick trick" to get votes,isn't it? Gee,whoda thunk that?
Are the new changes for both the spring and fall or just the spring season.??
I think that identifying your bait would be similar to having a # on a fish hut. For those that don't clean up after the hunt....they can be chased down and held accountable. so, if a C.O. checks a hunter that doesn't have his bait identified....could be a problem. If it is....no problem. After the hunt if there is garbage etc.....problem.
We have 2 new CO's that started this fall in the Dryden area, 5 all together and one they borrow from Ignace. They do have time to enforce the rules.
Rules will be for Fall and a spring hunt if approved.
the rules are not to help us hunters to ethically and safely manage our wildlife population - they are made by government to please the general public - over 86% live in urban areas and the vast majority has nothing to do with hunting; so why should we (in their minds)...Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
they will continue to tweak the rules until more and more will drop out. add the fiscal situation of an increasing number of people and the limited access to land and you know that hunter numbers (and their lobby) will not increase
don't be so bitter!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
they've earned a hug: positive press releases (votes) and don't forget less hunters means less firearms
just another little piece of the big puzzle
http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/t....letterbox.jpg
5years pilot period they should stick with the current regulations. Then once the 5years is up add more regulations if its required. More regulations I think you'll see a lot less bear hunters and with the bait restrictions I think you tend to see younger bears being shot. Also I am still puzzled on the hanging bait. How high due you hang it if its a 7' bear and your treestand is 20' high vs a 6' bear and your using a ground blind? Makes no sense to me . No guarantee the bear stand up facing away from you. If you can't sex bears its going to take a while for you to so the more bait the better to keep the bear there.
That being said I still want to know if your allowed to spot and stalk bears as well as use calls to bring them in. May seem like a silly question. But if their idea is to hang bait so you can sex the bear when it stands how you going to sex a bear when spot and stalking it or calling it in? Hard to get a bear to turn around and stand for you so you can sex it. Perhaps one should learn the traits of boars vs sows so they can sex a bear without it standing. More important is being able to verify if there's cubs or not.
Like I said. If they implement these regs I predict few bear hunters.
Numerous threads were posted to the EBR site for comment. The comment period has since ended. I'm not sure what use it is but it was the main avenue to voice your opinion.
http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...ent-on-the-EBR
http://bit.ly/1NNiwBo
im gonna puke !!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by waftrudnir
Commissar Wynne, and Komsomol Trudeau.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Those two need to get a room..............outta sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Better to not have a spring season if it comes with these stupid new rules. How many guys are willing to pay to use an Outfitter? as I feel this greatly decreases their odds of getting you on a bear. How many Outfitters will eventually raise their prices if they have to put out bait a lot more frequently??
These new rules will kill bear hunting.
Don't let them, we can't take a chance that these two could ever reproduce together!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Ewwwwwwwww!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by waltman
I feel for the outfitters that will be inconvenienced by the new rules however it isn't going to stop me from taking up the spring bear hunt.Quote:
These new rules will kill bear hunting.
This whole thing sickens me, as I can see where this is headed. What I'd like to know is what gives these ill informed idiots the logical reasoning to even think of imposing such stupid, useless restrictions that have no basis in scientific fact, let alone justify it somehow. These dummies know zilch about bear hunting in Ontario. Not that they care.
All this just leads me to believe that this is obviously a political decision headed the wrong way. What's next is the scariest part.
Cheers
This all reminds me of our laws on prostitution. The act itself isn't illegal,just everything around it. Not that I'd defend these two idiots,but,the decisions being made are from OMNRF bureaucrats. Those two mutts don't know shyte from shinola.
NOV 30 has come and gone! I wonder how long it's going to take before the NEW rules for the NEW spring season come about. I don't have a problem if there was some new rules pertaining to the spring season but they should just leave the fall season just the way it is.
Anything BLACK is LEGAL in the fall and always has been ... and yet our bear numbers are rising! 2nd seals were only offered in a few select units. Why second seals were not province wide a long time ago is a mystery! If they go through with these idiotic NEW rules it may be the last straw for a lot of guys. Fewer hunters is not the cure to our bear numbers!
Anyway I'm waiting to see what comes out of this. MY choices will be simple if these rules go through! I either give up after 30 yrs of bear hunting or start hunting illegally.
I always looked forward to retirement so I could hunt and fish my brains out! I finally get here and the good old MNR policy makers managed the moose into near extinction and now they're going to micromanage (ruin) the bear hunt.
Skeet,those are my sentiments,exactly. For me,I'm considering selling some gear and only keeping one small cal rifle,one big bore and 12 ga. and investing in a new boat....until they screw that up,too.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
The email I received says the minister will decide in early January with an announcement in the middle of January. NOTO says don't get too sure that we will have a spring hunt!!
Even if there is no spring hunt, expect new regs for fall 2016.
I wonder what the outfitters take on these possible new regs is. Too me the 10kgs of bait is a big issue specially for outfitters. Outfitters who mainly deal with bears alone could be a big deciding factor in whether or not they stay in the business. Specially if they hold the same regs in the fall. A lot of extra fuel money with having to bait more often. Not too mention the hunt itself will change. Baiting when done properly you can have quite a few bears on the same bait so its entertaining. Enjoying watching the bears till a shooter comes in. With 10kgs of bait you'll be lucky to have 2 bears at the bait. Unless its a sow with cubs.
I bait every second day with hanging baits and less than 20 pounds of bait deposited at each site at one time. Rules wont affect me. I already travel from 2-65 miles already to keep my baits active.
BUT.... I feel for the outfitters who cannot bait as often as my outfit, such as fly in camps. Or residents who live miles from their hunting areas. Just because I can do with the new laws, I don't agree with them as each outfitter or resident has their own proven technique that works for them.
Here's an idea, put out some bait/food of your choice with the following sign attached to the container:
"WARNING. THIS FOOD IS FOR BIRDS ONLY! ANY BEARS FOUND EATING THIS FOOD WILL BE SHOT!"
:thumbup: Bravo :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Mo
All politics, this is a trial period, they have implemented all of these new regulations to steer the results not in our favour, which will be the spring bear hunt had little effect on the bear population.
HEY
does anyone know how much volume 10 kg of popcorn is? Will 10 kg of popcorn fill a 45 gallon drum?
on another note:
I have perfected my automatic programmable bear feeder.
will run for 80 days on a 12v 5Ah battery.
this might be the yr to use the FIVE I have made at my 5 different sites.
If I can control the feed times and limit the amounts then maybe I can still play ball if these NEW rules come out.
I was thinking about the same thing. Use more bread, less meat.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Also, what are the rules about feeding wolf and coyote? Is there any limits?
Who the f#*k knows anymore??Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
bait limitations for bears is ludicrous!!
especially when guys can go out and dump 1,000 lbs of bait for deer/moose! all in one spot no-less! CWD and MAD cow etc etc.
other than outfitters I don't see how this is enforceable , COs don't have the resources to drive around and search for potential bait sites and if they find one there is no guarantee anybody will be home LOL. The only way they can enforce this is to require everyone using bait to BUY a baiting permit with location of bait site so they can check up on it . Now that's a scary thought isn't it.
Let's not give those dummies any more goofy ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
The law will require you to mark all your bait sites for any CO or bird watcher to legally walk in on you while you are trying to bag your trophy bear!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
How far do baits have to be apart? How high? Ten hanging 10kg baits 4" off the ground, should do the trick!
Unlimited bait allowed for deer. Only regs for using meat for wolf is that you must use meat that is certified by inspector. Other words no pigs, cows etc that die from natural causes. These laws were enforced heavy back in the early 80's when hunters were hanging piglets that died at birth and we were using them for bear bait. Harvested deer and moose or bear is different.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
One time I went across the border to pick a hunter at the International Falls airport. I was turned around and had to wash my truck as I had some straw and kernels of corn frozen in the bed of my truck before Us customs would allow me in. But yet Ontario allows us citizens to bring 100's of lbs of corn into Ontario from farms in the us. Don't make sense!!
That's kinda what my little evil mind thought up also!Quote:
Originally Posted by Camocruzr
no wording on how far apart bait sites need to be!
put out a bait 20yds in front - another 20 yds behind and another 20 yds to the right and another 20 yds to the left!
would make for some interesting video and some pretty skillful shooting!
Of course as usual - all this would fall under the discretion of the officer!
always seems to come back to the old "discretion BS" ..
If they just knew how to write a law then we'd all know where we stand.
Or.... if you've got a hunting buddy or buddies? Each of you put up a bait, oh say a few feet away from the other? 2 different bait sites by 2 different hunters? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Will it have to be in English?Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
English, Arabic and French will suffice!!
You can be sure,they'll be looking at the stats for the next five years. Residence hunters only kill about 20% of the Bears. NB about 15%.I believe residence hunters killed 5 bear in the village where I live.
I know at the cottage in Northern Onatio none of the residence hunted, but the town had 5 bear guides.
There is no problem with marking your baitsite. All that would be needed is a notice right at the tree stand. Unless you are careless and mark your trail into the baitsite where others can follow it then I can see no problem with this requirement.
I was thinking we had to mark the trail head into the bait. I agree if we have to mark the stand that's okay.
I start to believe they do that on intention. As long as they are able to write tickets (because it's cheaper to pay than to fight in court), the stats will show that we hunters "cannot be trusted"Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
a simplification of our regs (like done in some states) is way overdue (not going to happen in the current political environment)
I have bear hunted with 3 different outfitters over the years, I can assure you they tend to the baits at least 2-3 times a week and are not putting out more then 10 kg of bait at a time. They dump a miniscule amount of bread, popcorn and other smelly stuff in the barrels. There may be other outfitters that do things differently but I doubt it.
As for the hanging bait, I still want to know what this entails. Is a 45 gallon drum bolted to a tree good enough?
Let's slow down here...nothing has been decided yet (at least not officially). The spring bear hunt hasn't even been approved, and some people are talking like the bait restrictions are written in stone.
I was told by an "insider" (?) that the bunny huggers are going completely ape shyte. I won't be surprised if the Lib's cave on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude Bro
If they do they do, if not oh well!!!
My sentiments,exactly. I,for one,will not be losing any sleep over it. It won't be like they cancelled the entire Black Bear hunt,although,messing with baiting or banning it altogether like other jurisdictions will put a whole new wrinkle on things,won't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
I'll be cutting tags either way.
Your information regarding outfitters putting out small amounts of bait is 100% WRONG. As an outfitter we put out hundreds of pounds of bait on every bait for weeks BEFORE the hunters show up to hunt. When the hunters arrive we cut the amount of bait back so the bear start coming out during daylight. There is less bait out so the earliest bear gets to eat. This brings them out so you can fill your tag.
Get your facts right.
I have a full camp for Fall 2016 bear hunt right now. I am having a hard time trying to talk them into changing to a spring hunt.
I bait pretty well every day. I use about 10 kg's at a time and have used hanging baits for a couple of decades, we have no problem keeping the bears in competition for the bait. BUT.... I would prefer the omnr to not touch the baiting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearhunter
Did you submit your comments to the mnr Chris Lavoie?
Line up 10 outfitters and ask them how they bait you'll get 10 different methods. I don't see any misinformation.
Many outfitters are not wanting a spring hunt to increase their revenues, they get all the Fall hunters they need to make them happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude Bro
To me, I just enjoy the sport of Spring bear hunting. Our camp had spring hunts for 28 years. You have the rut in late May and june. Costs less to conduct a spring hunt than it is for a Fall hunt. Cooler weather in the spring.
I my self couldn't take hunters till May 15 as our cabins are still froze up.
Pros of Fall hunt is no ticks, blueberries for spot and stalk. Bigger fatter bears.
I was sent a letter from Snobelin back in 1998 ,which stated " A spring hunt is the best time to hunt bears". So I quoted sentences of his letter in my EBR.
[QUOTE=chris lavoie;944566]
I my self couldn't take hunters till May 15 as our cabins are still froze up.
Pros of Fall hunt is no ticks, blueberries for spot and stalk. Bigger fatter bears.
QUOTE]
Include fewer skeeters and blackflies and rarely see a rub in the fall hunt.
Interesting comment about outfitters not wanting a spring hunt. I don't know much about bear outfitters up north, but had been with the understanding that they were the ones that have the most to gain from this and were the ones pushing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
Werner, I never said outfitters never wanted a spring hunt. I said they are happy with the numbers of hunters they get in the fall to meet their needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
They still want a spring hunt for the sport of it!!! To most outfitters, it not about the dollar.
PRECISELY! and this is what makes bear hunting so enjoyable. Baiting techniques, amounts etc etc is 90% of the fun. And when you look at the results of all the bear baiters ( outfitters & solo) there really is no bad way to bait.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
I sure hope they keep their lack of expertise (MNR) in the office where it belongs.
I know a bear guide who works for a big outfitter in Thunder Bay and they will be looking forward to bringing in more Americans in the Spring. This guide and outfitter are looking forward to making more money. They guide to make money. Pretty sure most outfitters need to make a profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
If they are all ready filling their spots with a fall hunt, pbonura, wont they over hunt their BMA's???
Did you even read my post? I stated my observation . . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearhunter
Why don't you answer the question about hanging bait?
As an outfitter, the spring bear hunt is useless to me, and the new baiting regs would/will kill my business. Consistency is my key to repeat and word of mouth customers which is the core of my business. under these regulations i could no longer bait in a fashion where customers continue to have a near guarantee of taking a good bear. will this make it more challenging yes, will i lose customers over it, yes. So, i don't gain anything in spring, and lose in the fall... that's the math for my camp.
my camp can't be accessed until may much of the time. and i have to haul arse at that point to get camp opened and boats running for pickerel opener. no time for anything else. usually i need two weeks prep, alone.
the list of incremental issues faced by outfitters that most people don't think about is enormous. simple things like mandatory passports for border crossing even hurt the business. so will this.
There's at least 2 distinct types of outfitters, those who do a bear hunt only and those who cater to hunters and anglers throughout the summer.
For the full time hunting/fishing lodge a spring hunt really stresses the time and resources for that camp as this is also prime time for those booked for fishing trips. For them, the easier money is in the anglers. Baiting for bears is time intensive and costly and much of that hunt runs concurrent with the fishing season. So you could understand why many outfitters really don't care if the spring hunt comes back.
For those outfitters running only a bear hunt the inclusion of the spring hunt gives them leeway to increase bookings. That works well if they wish to increase their earnings but it comes at the cost of having very little time off in the summer and the possibility of over-hunting their BMAs.
They have a big BMA and lots of bears and will add more baits. Already asked...Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
I have 9 large BMA's pbonura. Also with an overflowing population of bears. If the outfitter your talking about has not been taking many hunters in the past, I can see him taking more hunters. But to take more bears than what he has traditionally taken in the past can deplete his bear population within his BMA.Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
I have a plan if they bring back the spring hunt. I will conduct both a spring and Fall hunt. I will also take not a single hunter more than what I have taken each year in the past. I will take my numbers of my previous Fall hunts and divide the numbers between the 2 seasons.
Makes a lot of sense...a lot of us southerners that don't deal with northern outfitters likely don't understand how things work - particularly where there are water access only cabins - and spring ice melt affects schedules.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
If you have an overflowing population of bears why would you not take more hunters? The moose in your area would surely appreciate it, would they not? You seem to always be on the government for restricting bear harvest yet you are not taking advantage of the opportunity to increase bear harvest?Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
If there is an overabundance of bears then why is there not 2 tags per hunter in all WMU's? The MNR wants to reduce bear numbers. The MNR wants a spring season. The MNR wants to sell more tags.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Why in god's name haven't they issued 2 tags per hunter? They would increase the harvest, obviously sell more tags and still deal with the same number of guys in the woods. An outfitter offering a 2 bear hunt would be more desirable to any hunter. (I know this would work for me). Many other provinces already have spring and fall season and a 2 bear limit!
There seemed to be NO SHORTAGE of bears way back when it was one bear per tag (unlimited as long as you bought a tag) and this was at a time when most deer and moose tags were combo moose/bear deer/bear.
Someone at that time decided to separate the bear tag in the hopes of making more fricken $.
Seems pretty simple to me but I'm not the MNR with their "bag of hammers" mentality.
I am against the government for denying us residents the ability to hunt bears in the spring. Spring is when the moose calves are vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
As for numbers of bears within our leased BMA, future might tell me to increase numbers of bears harvested.
With the spring hunt being re-instated,outfitters with their own BMA's may find more resident hunters coming into the area and hunting without outfitters. That,in and of itself,could upset the population balance depending on their success. It could get very interesting,indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
Trimmer ... any die hard residents are already hunting bears in the fall. If some of them shifted to the spring the harvest numbers might be split between the 2 seasons but the overall harvest will be the same. IMO it's easier to harvest a bear in the spring (I hunted both seasons in the past so at least I have a little more experience to back up a quote like this) BUT all things being equal it's a much nicer hunt in the fall. Leaves are turning, zero bugs, fish biting, heavier bears, no fear of shooting an illegal sow (no such thing in the fall), no rubbed hides. did I mention no bugs!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
most cottagers are gone home and with them a good number of tree huggers.
You may be accurate on all counts. It will certainly remain to be seen. Personally,I enjoy hunting more in the fall for all the reasons you stated,too.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Trimmer, your are correct!! What if I take more non resident hunters than I normally do and then there is an increase in resident hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Well, I lived in Northern Ontario and know lots of `die hard residents` that don`t hunt at all let alone hunt bears in the fall.Quote:
any die hard residents are already hunting bears in the fall.
I took it as he was referring to "Die Hard" resident bear hunters, not just residents.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Cheers
Fair enough. That's the trouble with interpreting what is written as opposed to what is said. ;)
No comments on my posts?
It's NOT even 100% yet that there will be a Spring bear season.
It's just talk......
Until we see it in the reg's with "IF" any rules we will have to wait and see!
Flip
Quote:
Originally Posted by flippin
Well .... I respectfully disagree with you on this.
When have you ever seen an EBR put out by the MNR that has NOT happened? They already have made a decision and they're going to go through with it. The EBR is just one of the procedures (stepping stones) they need to do to follow the guidelines. They have a comments field just to appease the public and let us all feel as though we will make a difference. Like our opinions count! NOT!
Every change they seem to make is always to fulfill the gov'ts need. Extract more money from us!
They word it as a 5 year trial to appease anyone and everyone that it is reversible "if they see fit".
The 5 or 6 conditions they outlined might be pared back to 2 or 3 BUT "make no mistake" there will be a spring season!
I've been around long enough and seen more then a few of these "marble under the 3 cups" games.
yeah, that seem to be the common thread. their job is to make stupid rules, so they could enhance them later over and over again. great job security and we continue to pay constantly increasing fees for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
The regs should be simplified (as done in a number of states) and the money should be put into enforcement instead of policy making! This will only happen if licence purchases go significantly down (far enough that fee increase does not counterbalance the loss) and stay down for many years so they go constantly over budget.
Look at the other debate around wolf tags: I wonder how many wolf tags were sold up north. Not all that many I guess, but enough in cottage country to make a dime...