http://www.merrittherald.com/vohring...is-in-trouble/
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If only our government had the balls to stand up, we'd be in a lot better shape in many different aspects. I have a buddy who goes moose hunting to the same area year after year, as they have a camp there. They were told by a local they know up in that area, that last year the natives took 24 moose out of the area, and when they spoke with this gentleman this year he said they got 37 this year. They didn't see a moose and barely seen any fresh sign
Bears , wolves , unregulated harvest , ticks , incompetent mnr. ? Lots of reasons.
Good article,no more needs to be said. It said it quite clear.
Too easy to blame the "First Nations".
They have been around hunting with rifles on logging roads as long as anyone else.
Their population is a bit higher than it used to be but the population of non-aboriginals in Canada is vastly more than 50 years ago and they hunt too.
Yes, unregulated hunting is a problem for many reasons but moose numbers are collapsing all over North America. The First Nation kill can't be the only reason. It's a real probability multiple factors are occurring. Deer with their brain worm can't be ignored. Neither can warming climate and the increased survival of tics as a result.
Logging is not moose friendly. For a couple years of regrowth, a cut might be favourable. But then spraying of glyphosate to kill as much decidual trees decimates the habitat to useless mono-culture jack pine or spruce-- not much good for any wild life.
Logging is more likely the reason for decline. Roads permit deer and brain worm to spread. Roads permit everyone to hunt more area and with greater success. Post cutting herbicides destroy useful habitat. Forest loss adds to global warming and the warmer winter that permit tics to survive.
I doubt Unregulated hunting alone is the problem. The fulcrum is more likely logging and all the un-anticipated consequences of it.
Yup, good article. All harvest needs to be regulated.
How will they differentiate between the harvest for sport shooters and the harvest required for sustenance hunters ?Quote:
Originally Posted by gillshot
Good article. States the obvious - there is an assault on our moose herd on many fronts and that is the reason that our moose herd is sadly disappearing.
Unregulated hunting is definitely a big problem and growing that cannot be ignored - there wont be any moose for them also if this keeps up; so is access to the remotest areas by big gangs of hunters with the best equipment money can buy like ATVs, planes, motor boats, etc. - this increases hunter success due to use of this better technology - the moose have nowhere to hide. Diseases brought on by deer is another one. Increased predator protection by government is another one (bears, wolves) causing their populations to explode - they have to eat something. And I am sure global warming does not help.
So, in my opinion, until all these are fixed - and we all know there is little chance of that, it will only get worse.
Unregulated hunting, disease, predators, easy access and I am not the biggest fan of shooting calves.
First nations want to be substance hunters they need to report every moose. Guess what I lived in Nunavut for over a year on Baffin Island. Guess how the caribou herd is doing? Plummeted from the late 90's by 95%. Now theres only 250 yearly tags available to inuit hunters. When I first moved there you could go on facebook to the local buy/sell bag and see people selling 5, 6, 7 caribou at one time from different communities. I also build a water treatment plant on the first nations reserve by Sudbury, native joked about how he himself shot 30 moose the previous year.
I am also a fan of closing areas to motorized vehicles. I know of a few areas here in the north like that as well as it is becoming popular in BC. Surprising how much it can do for wildlife.
We all know the bear population is exploding as well as wolves. They need to be managed properly.
Never been a fan of shooting calves. Will I shoot one? Yes however I think its a poor system to automatically get a calf tag when you buy a licence. I like BC's system where if your not successful in the draw the in areas with an open moose season you get a tag for a spike/fork bull. Has to be either a spike or fork on one side. However the down side is hunters shoot what they believe is a legal spike/fork and it turns out to have an extra point so the hunter leaves it. No system is perfect but ours need major work!
Sorry but I do not agree. When you control the unregulated hunting then the moose population at least has a chance. When you are able to control regulated hunters and allow them to harvest wolves, bears and trap then you can help. But if the unregulated hunters shoot everything that is the number 1 reason for the major decline in the moose population.Quote:
Originally Posted by johny
One thing that few people point out is the effect of forest fires on moose populations. With current technologies and programs for prevention, detection and elimination of forest fires in order to protect people and properties, moose, who experience great upsides in the aftermath of forest fire areas are not seeing them. For example, the long term average for annual forest fires in Northwest Ontario is 1000 per year (MNRF). This year, according to the last number I saw was around 620 and last year there were only 297.
I'm not saying we should stop forest fires but it's just another factor that will affect the moose population long term. Moose see the benefit of forest fires for 50 years where a fire has burned. It's another human controlled issue that we tailor for ourselves to the detriment of other species.
I think you have nailed that one pretty well.
Many years ago , old burned out areas were where we hunted and shot our moose. All you had to do is check out where there had been a forest fire at least 5 years previous and that is where you found moose , in the new growth they were easy to spot .
One big disadvantage was to get to them , and then get them out after you had shot one .
Agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozyleroux
Like I said, forestry practices in general are likely the main culprit and that includes fire suppression.
Fire suppression has absolutely nothing to do with the decline in he moose herd.
Agree. This has been going on for 100 years; our moose herd started to decline severely less than 10 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibb
One forestry practice that in my opinion has an effect is the clear cutting and then immediate spraying of an area - this does not give the moose enough time to benefit from the rich new growth that follows. Clear cutting benefits moose as it opens up areas for good nutrition for them but only if its available to them for a few years before it is sprayed.
What's wrong with our Moose herd?
SIMPLE ANSWER!
It's being managed by the MNR!
Really? How many references would you like me to find that indicate that forest fires have an immense benefit for moose? Plus, the last 10 years have seen a boom in communications and detection technology which have made finding, reporting and directing efforts at fighting those fires. How many people had 4G smart phones 15 years ago?
Clearly, if they're spraying the areas they log afterwards with Round-up, that will have negative consequences for the animal life trying to re-enter the area as there will no food left for them which is one of the major benefits of burns and clear cuts (minus the glyphosate). Naturally, this is not a single issue solution as others have illustrated however this is another factor that is piling on with all the others (predators, over-hunting, illnesses, etc).
"Moose numbers are often highest in parts of the forest disturbed by fire or forestry. Fire and forestry promote the growth of young trees and shrubs, which provide nutritional food for moose." (OMNRF)
"Moose generally benefit from fire because their preferredfoods are shrubs and saplings. These plants are mostabundant and most productive in burned areas. Habitat formoose is generally improved for about 1 to 30 years" (USFWS)
If you want to research something google the powley court case than add it up in a time line to the state of the herd today.
There is not a resource on this planet that can withstand open unregulated year round hunting/harvesting.
I think it's a combination of a lot of things working against the moose as to why their populations are so low. Unregulated harvest, "regulated" harvest of cows, "regulated" harvest of calves, high quotas in WMU 21 for caribou management, predation, habitat loss, habitat quality, disease, the harshness of the past couple winters, increased availability to remote areas, vehicle collisions, poaching, ect.
If the OMNRF would step up and cut quotas for a few years, stop handing out cow and calf tags altogether, stop limiting and charging for wolf and coyote tags, not charge $50 for a bear tag, and actually allow the herd to grow I don't think the problem would be as bad as it is now.
The OMNRF manages for "sustainability", so are they trying to keep the populations at the lowest possible "sustainable" level?
:goodstuff::goodstuff::goodstuff:Quote:
Originally Posted by x_xeon_x
It does not matter what the MNRF does If you have unlimited harvesting of cows bulls and calfs year round.
How much lower can they drop the tags example Unit 30 from 170 adult tags to 20 this year.
The MNRF hands are tied by liberal judges who allowed this to happen. If judges allows open access year round hunting, hunting at night, no harvest reporting the end result is a declining herd.
Look at every accessible caribou herd everyone is in jeopardy right now.
Bingo this is the reason why the moose herd is screwed. Anyone who honestly can not tell me this is the not the number 1 reason is dreaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibb
NO , --- I don't blame it all on the unregulated harvest (by Natives) BUT it definitely is a contributing factor . --- Years ago , some native acquaintances had coaxed me to "come along" during the OFF-SEASON . They told me not to worry about it because no-one would check-up on us . --- I declined (for several reasons) ; besides , I'm not native . --- After-ward they boasted about their success . --- These people were not POOR and definitely didn't need the meat in order to survive . --- I NEVER hunted with them . --- IMO , HUNTERS and GAME-HOGS are two distinctly different species .Quote:
Originally Posted by x_xeon_x
Unfortunately and very sadly, I think this is only the tip of the iceberg and its going to get a lot worse. As licensed hunting is one of the few things MNRF can manipulate, expect for more pressure be applied to this.
I can forsee a day in not so distant future that the MNRF will be forced to close down the regulated/licenced hunt for large parts of the province as has happened in Manitoba, and in Minnesota already. This means that only those that can participate in the unregulated/un-licenced hunt will be able to hunt moose in the future. There is no way around this happening.
We cannot really blame the MNRF for mismanaging the resource as how can they possibly manage a wildlife resource if the rules only apply to part of the population. We also cannot blame the unregulated hunters who have and want to protect their hard won treaty rights.
The whole thing is a real mess. I think everyone needs to sit at the table and agree to live by rules that apply to all, for the sake of the wildlife populations - really hope this happens.
Bingo you are starting to get it. With the Powley court decision harvest rights were extended to the Metis hunters. Kind like wolves in sheep clothing deal. Until this is resolved the herd across Canada is in doomed.
When you factor in all the other issues stressing the herd the future is bleak.
No resource can withstand the pressure being applied, unrestricted harvesting with all the modern tools at hand equal the downfall of the moose herd.
OMNRF bungling,inability to regulate and police First Nations,bunny huggers,tree huggers and gun control? Pretty soon,all those hunting shows we see on TV will be mere examples of how it USED to be.:sad:
why would the MNRF change anything as long as we are willing to send them our money they will continue to use their flawed management model that has not worked as they thought or we would have those huge moose populations they predicted 30 yrs ago
I find it kinda ironic that there is another thread dealing with a licensed moose hunter being fined $180 for not completing a mandatory hunter survey, with the MNR saying the info submitted is needed to manage the herd. Yet they, (MNR), have absolutely no idea how many moose are seen and harvested by first nations hunters. Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture?
Didn't we have a Native fella on here once explain how this worked, seems to me he said that the bands work with the MNR to establish quotas;Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
Quote:
The sustainable harvest number for adult moose is provided by the Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR). However, Pikwŕkanagŕn manages their own harvest with agreements to work in conjunction with MNR to allocate the total harvest numbers. This includes participating in aerial park surveys to gather information to assist in our sustainable system of harvest.
http://www.algonquinsofpikwakanagan....moose_deer.php
That band hunts within Algonquin Park (which is off limits to everyone else), and the area adjacent to it. I'm curious to know what goes on in the area of the province north of North Bay. Saying that they will "work in conjunction with the MNR" doesn't lead me to believe they use a system similar to the reporting survey others use.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
X2Quote:
Originally Posted by johny
(post cutting herbicides are major player in moose no.s IMO)
I've never commented on this before, but I'm tired of sitting back making sure I don't offend anyone so............ Every October when I go north for moose hunting, after arriving, the first thing that I hear is the number of moose taken in September. These are big numbers and its year after year. On Monday, when the legal hunt starts, the MNR are out in full force to make sure all moose are tagged properly with time and date of the legal harvest. From what I hear in the area I hunt, there are approximately 7 moose shot before the season opens to every one shot during the season. Why worry so much about the 1 and ignore the 7 ?? You can say the problem is wolves, bears, vehicle accidents, or too many tags being issued, to be politically correct, but we all know what the real problem is.
I am not a huge fan of the MNRF but in this situation they have no authority in dealing with First nation people and Metis hunters. Again I will say spraying has nothing to do with the dramatic decline in the moose herd.
It is all about year round hunting of moose by unregulated hunters. There is no mandatory reporting, shoot whatever you see hunting, allowed to hunt at night, using all the new technology that is out there. For sure the access roads build for logging are a problem but only because they are used to road hunt off of. The MNRF is not to blame. A number of areas in Manitoba have had to go to a complete no hunting moose in order to try and save what is left.
Three WMUs visited this year and all have the same story. In one WMU I talked with an officer with the First Nations. He had told me of some on the reservation that were killing over 6 per hunter. In the article from the OP I read a lot of comments that said the article and/or the writer was racist in the claims. When you hear from some of the First Nations that these claims are substantiated one wonders. To blame them though is a bit two faced. If we were given the same liberties I'm sure we would do the same. The blame is squarely on the governments inability to manage. Is it that they are inept? Its all political. Its bigger than logging or aboriginal rations. The problem runs deep and its doubtful it'll ever be corrected until the moose become like the buffalo or worse the carrier pigeon. Only then will we wake up but by then it may be too late.
I disagree. It's not all on the MNRF. If hunters cared enough - I mean really and truly cared - they would stop buying tags altogether and start writing the Province. That's not to say the MNRF isn't also at fault. They need to revisit management practices, including the effects of the free-for-all hunts of the First Nations.
2 words - DOUBLE STANDARD
I agree the government is to blame for lack of proper management. You cant have a double standard and try to regulate the crap out of 1 and do absolutely nothing with the other and try to control population levels its just nonsense. There is PLENTY of food in the forest without the need to take a moose whether its regulated or not so the whole sustinence excuse imo is a load of steamy horse plop. Either we all play by the same rules or eventually its game over for everyone!
We can call it a double standard all we want - and I tend to agree with that sentiment - but regulating their hunt is not going to happen anytime soon. The MNRF have absolutely no power to regulate aboriginal affairs. You can't can't them for that.
And no, there isn't plenty of food in the forest. If there was, we wouldn't have any regulations, now would we? The game will end no matter what kind of regulations are in place. For everyone indeed.
http://mwf.mb.ca/2014/06/09/manitoba-moose-crisis/
Good read to help understand the problem.
In 10 years there will be no white hunt for moose. The few moose remaining will only be able to support a native hunt and according to the courts they get first right of harvest. I have a camp in zone 48 on the East side of Algonquin. There are two hunts in the WMU a native and a non-native. The native hunt starts Sept 15 and ends Jan 15th. They do have tags and they do have some very loose limits but everyone gets a tag. The non-native hunt had 72 tags in total. The WMU starts in Pembroke and ends in North Bay. The non-native season is 5 days. Guess who harvested more moose! And this is a relatively well run Native/Non-Native hunt with reasonable cooperation.
Yes, thanks a good read and audio. This is the problem for sure and we all know it. Until the federal and provincial governments decide to act together, the problem will only grow. Forget the brainworm, wolves, bears and any other bs excuses.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibb
What I meant by plenty of food in the forest is that moose are not the only answer for their sustinence needs. There is plenty of food if you look for it like deer bear small game birds fish crops fruit trees etc. Someone said they heard of a guy shooting 30 moose...dont tell me they NEEDED that many to feed their family.
I dont expect the MNR to control them ever, its a matter of the government allowed a double standard to be created and thus it is now unfair as one side is completely unregulated and the other side is regulated up the wahzoo...IMO both sides should follow the same laws if preservation of the species is at risk. Creating double standards creates percieved unfairness which leads some of those that believe they are getting the short end of the stick to seek their own fairness maybe through poaching or seeing the rules and laws as they see fit. I dont expect anything to change soon but I do put blame on the government for allowing a double standard to be created.
Laws change as society changes. Maybe its time to start looking at whats fair for all and create 1 harmonious system of government. People are free to practice their own beliefs but IMO enough time has passed we should revisit there unregulated rights and seek out the abusers. I fully support feeding your family off of what the land provides but it disgusts me to hear of guys bragging about their kill count when I have a slim chance to even get a tag let alone share it with 9-13 ppl if I even want a fair shot at the draw. Im not a fan of moose calf tag for all or else I wouldnt have an opinion but now hunting pressure is going to shift to the calves i think. Instead of having 1 tag for 10+ people its easier to get 5 people together and each take a calf so I could see more people going for calf season who are meat hunters and only the trophy hunters will continue trying to get a bull tag.
The three main problems within this moose massacre are demographics of the population, metis status and a huge population of urban FN people living in major cities.
When you get a liberal judge making decisions that the rest of society has to live with there can be a lot of unintentional consequences.
I have no problem with true subsistence living and harvesting but what is going on since the Powley court case in Ontario in 2002 has nothing to do with culture or subsistence harvesting.
Personally I am fed up of listening to all the excuses and want to bring the true problem front and center to the table.
This is not about logging, access roads, spraying, fire suppression, winter tick kills, wolves or bears.
It is about humans over-harvesting a limited resource and it has to be dealt with.
Jim
GrizzlyAdams, I agree. I'm with you. Sadly, we won't see any of that change under the current leadership.
No your right and I doubt it will ever change. Sad but true. As a new hunter Im let down by the stories I hear of how it used to be and the abuse that takes place. Its a pitty that there isnt and most likely wont ever be 1 law for all to follow. I have friends that live up north and the stories I hear of perfectly good game meat going to waste is a crime. Abusers on both sides of the spectrum need to be held accountable. When it gets to the point 1 guy shoots 30 moose and I didnt even draw a tag its kinda off balance...maybe im just a sore loser? Lol
It looks like we live parallel lives. I'm in the same boat, having started hunting only 3 years ago. My friends all live in northern Ontario - where I make the trip for deer camp for the comaraderie - and I hear the same sad stories. It's very frustrating.
On a related note, my girlfriend worked for MNRF and is familiar with some of the wildlife management processes - and still knows the people in our district. The stories on the inside are just as sad and frustrating. The subject matter experts have their hands tied.
I have been watching this thread with interest and would like to throw in my opinion. Not once has anyone ever recognized the fact that the adult moose tag system was originally designed to not allow party hunting for adult animals. The tag holder was the only person legally allowed to kill the animal they had a tag for. Tags were issued on this fact and designed for an allowable harvest to increase the population. Hunters, who had been used to shooting what they wanted, didn't like the restrictions and a large number were violating the party hunting regs. As a result of that and the whining about it the government changed the regs to allow for party hunting and the tag numbers remained unchanged. This was still not good enough for the average Ontario hunter so they changed the system to allow for guaranteed group sizes. Every time tags were reduced there was an uproar by hunters and tags were eventually issued by politics rather than biology. No wonder the moose population has not increased the way it should have with the original designed system.
Another reason for the decline is the advent of the ATV. 30 years ago very few groups would think of shooting a moose that they couldn't carry out of the bush to a pick up parked along side of a logging road or to a boat on a waterway. Now there are not many spots you can't take an ATV to with a little bit of work and as a result more moose are shot in remote areas where once they would have been safe.
I lived in the north for over 20 years and the stories of FN hunters killing 30 plus moose have been around the whole time but rarely were the numbers confirmed.
Rather than blaming the declining population on FN hunters it is time that we all take responsibility for the declining populations and resign ourselves to the fact that we might not be able to go moose hunting every year. Rather than ing and whining about the MNR not doing their job come up with a better plan to increase moose populations. Oh Ya one of those plans can't include changing the FN right to harvest because that's not going to change as it is their Constitutional Right and that right has been guaranteed through countless decisions by the Supreme Court of Canada.
Extended access to areas previously too far for the average hunter,without doubt,has contributed to Moose population density drop probably more than we know. When I first started hunting Moose at age 17,all that was available was to quarter a Moose and spend the next two days hauling it out by pack over rough terrain and expansive swamps and muskeg or by watercraft,usually canoes,feats definitely not for the faint of heart or those of advanced age or the over-weight and out-of-shape. ATV's changed all that. Maybe,therein lies part of the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyheader
The point about ATVs allowing everyone to get to more remote areas is a contributing factor for sure. There is no doubt in my mind that if the MNR didn't issue any tags next year ........... The number of moose killed would not drop by 20 percent. I don't know how to fix the problem but I sure hope it can be resolved before it's too late.
Great post but if you can not control the fn hunters how does controlling the same regulated hunters help the moose population. Cut tags for regulated hunters and the fn hunters come in before the season and harvest everything. No point all hunters need to be involved and I not one with a tonne of faith in the fn group limiting there harvest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyheader
I do not think most folks understand the impact of metis hunters into this picture, the Powley decision extend subsistence hunting rights to a whole group of people who use to have to follow the regular hunting regulations.
This court decision has been used across Canada, most of you are thinking only Ontario and what you think you know. The moose herd is in trouble right across Canada except for the Island of Newfoundland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Powley
The other big issue is FN demographics;
http://www.td.com/document/PDF/econo...iginal_nhs.pdf
It is not only the FN who have the right for subsistence hunting.
Well then why not level the playing field and give everyone the same unregulated hunting rights instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyheader
Yes I know it is an ourageous concept but it's the only fair thing to do if the FN cannot be equally regulated. If you can't beat them join them concept.
I'm sure that is going on unofficially in some areas of Ontario. So it's a raise to the bottom for the moose herd. Once it hits rock bottom then the two sides may sit down and attempt to share the resource fairly. Reducing the white hunt won't make any difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
Everybody did?? Maybe those in northern Ontario where the season goes until Dec 15 but I suspect most of the moose hunters in the province hunt the first 3 weeks of the season when there is no snow, so the advent of the ATV changed that period for most of the hunters.Quote:
Everybody waited for the snow, hunted and got them out with their snowmobiles. A lot easier then using an ATV.
Both regulated hunters and non regulated hunters gained more access, which only means more dead moose. The only way to manage the herd is to manage the herd and put politics aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Bingo...Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe
Who's kidding who as said many times in this thread over harvest of a limited resource is always the biggest threat to any species by the 2 legged predators.
as for the dual standards or laws.. That border on discrimination.... Eventually some white hunters will get tired of being harassed go to court with a good lawyer and get their charges thrown out as you can't discriminate and regulate one group of people's while you ignore another.
thats not racism its the same rationale minorities protested in the first place. Reverse discrimination
Fully agree now we are the ones being disciminated against in a way. Not speaking just to FN but all minority groups - sometimes they end up with better circumstances than the status quo...not sure how initial percieved unfairness turns into specialty rights that not even the status quo are granted. Everyone with Cdn citizenship should be treated equally I think thats the common feeling for most that commented. Sure blame it on the atvs and advanced equipment but without regulations for all the system will fail every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster29/66
Anyone know any rough statistics on the ratio of regulated to non regulated hunters? (im curious)
atv's , planes, better boats, game cameras, electronic calls, more logging roads ....
all the above has indeed increased hunter success ratios but the tag allocations should be in line with all those factors.
Higher success ratio fewer tags. The math should balance out.
sure we all have better equipment and more access BUT moose management was controlled by the issuing of TAGS based on moose #'s - hunter success ratios - previous winter kill - poaching - FN harvest etc.
We all agree that moose numbers are plummeting and the MNR has been steering this ship on to the rocks for years.
What really puzzles me is the 5 or 6 units where moose are being eradicated to enhance the caribou comeback. Wolves and bears ARE NOT being addressed.
The MNR decisions that have been made in the past and today will be a future case study in university on mismanagement.
I know I'm hard on the MNR. This resource is not being run by the sportsmen ( the users) .. It is being run by backbench MNR personnel. Sportsmen, OFAH, (users) have no say on any decisions made. We can not correct the problem because the baton (torch) will never be passed to us! YET we're the losers!
great system we have here EH!
I suspect that one of the reasons that some F-N harvesters are killing so many moose may be to commercialize in the meat. I wonder who they sell to? I suspect hey are selling to non-F-N people,u making them/us part of the problem. If there was not a market....perhaps those that commercialize would not shoot so many.
I really don't think much, if any moose meat is being sold by FNs to non FNs. We all know what the problem is.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Better be careful to ask the MNR to further regulate/restrict the moose hunt as the regulated hunters only will be the losers. The unregulated hunters will surely welcome this as the resource will be theirs alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
I think to balance things out, the government must regulate hunting for everyone but we know that is NOT going to happen.
The alternative is that they have to deregulate hunting for the rest of us as well. Instead of further restricting the hunt by giving less and less tags, they should loosen the rules to even the playing field. I know this sounds crazy as the moose population will suffer but its the only fair way.
When the moose become an endangered species in Canada, then perhaps everyone will sit down at the table and agree on sensible regulation for everyone.
PS. We know this is dreaming as they will 100% do what is the easiest and most politically correct instead - and that is to further regulate us until we basically stop going hunting all together.
There is one simple answer, that is ALL harvest needs to be regulated before we start dealing with the other issues (climate change, brain worm, habitat loss etc) Otherwise all our efforts will be pointless.
But we all know that wont happen, because our government has no will to take on a so called "sensitive issue". Not every unregulated hunter hunts unsustainably, but the ones that do are extremely selfish. Thanks for ruining a valuable resource for future generations. Shame on you... You know exactly what you are doing...
I beg to differ!! Met an old fella in the woods 6 years ago with a bull tag in his pocket. He said if he didn't fill it , he would have to "buy "a moose when he got back home to North Bay. He said he would have no problem, bull, cow or calf, whichever he desired. Quarter, half or whole moose, his decision. I'm pretty sure this was not going to be purchased at Walmart, Foodtown, Farm Boy or any other local butcher shop. So you tell me where he would be purchasing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ysyg
I know, you know , the government knows and pretty much everyone else knows!!!! Unfortunately the government won't stand up and address the problem, along with many others that want to remain politically correct.
And unfortunately....those who buy the moose and create the market are just as much a part of the problem. The finger of guilt keeps point around in the circle!!Quote:
I know, you know , the government knows and pretty much everyone else knows!!!! Unfortunately the government won't stand up and address the problem, along with many others that want to remain politically correct.
We can only hope the moose they buy is rotten and gives them severe food poisoning so they learn their lesson!!! May their chilli rings be cut by a thousand razors for their folly say IQuote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
I agree 100%. But human nature being what it is, it seems there are always some who see it differently!Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
I was just pointing out that it happens and I'm sure that I am not the only one that is aware of it. Both here on the forum and in government!
I would hope that there wouldn't be too many guys out there like the one you met 6 years ago in the woods. He could and should be fined for illegally obtaining wild game. You are right about our governments lack of action on this topic. It's sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by bushman
Over the years of my and my friends moose hunting , I can recall about 8 occasions where we have been approached by a member of FN, at the local watering hole or nearby supply store and we had been asked if we would like to buy a moose or [ two on one occasion ] if we hadn't shot our own. I personally think there is more of this going on than most people suspect .
Once in the Matachewan Hotel , we were approached and turned the guy down , and later found out from some Americans that had taken the guy up on his offer ,and then got their money back after threatening to beat the hell out of him as that moose had been hanging in the bush for a few days and was starting to smell . Makes you wonder how many moose are left to spoil this way ?
I doubt the truth of most of these "moose for sale" anecdotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Why?
1) They only appeared a few days ago in response to this thread.
But the moose decline started years ago--- why are the rats abandoning ship now? If this information about "moose for sale in the bush" was available years ago, why did we not hear of it then?
2) Think about it!! Tourists want a lot of meat. Really?
No!! Most want Antlers, Hunt Experience, Meat in that order.
It's a lot cheaper to buy a side of grass fed beef than pay an outfitter for a moose hunt. Plus add the cost for an FN citizen for a moose shot days before by the FN or his his relatives. No way. Tourists buy a hunt. Meat is a beneficial side effect.
3) Sorry everyone but grain or grass fed beef is better than moose. Yes I love moose and deer meat. But the reason that cows are so popular is that their meat is so tasty. Who in their right mind is going to buy an expensive outfitter tag ,plus the room and board, and travel, and time off work and then buy a chewy swamp donkey shot by an FN citizen?
The whole scenario is so ridiculous that it falls into the category of "rural mythology".
Sorry but I don't agree with you on this..... I can see a market for this. No proof but there are lots of different types of people in this world and suspect more than a few of them would be happy to take them up on this offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by johny
I agree that there is a market for losers who buy antlers.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Including fenced in game farms.
But meat?
Really?
Moose and deer are great but beef is better.
Does anyone really pay outfitters/FN/travel just for meat that someone else shot?
Buying antlers by testosterone deficient losers---yes, it happens.
But meat only- hard to believe.
I have to disagree also. I don't know how prevalent it is BUT I can see a market for illegal moose. There are many out there willing to pay for wild game.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
I'm very successful here in my area with deer and I know firsthand about a market out there. Every year someone asks me to shoot a deer for them. They all offer to pay! These are not fellow hunters but just acquaintances at the arena, the local Timmies, etc. I politely tell them I can't and I won't.
There definitely is a market for illegal game meat, not only moose but deer also.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Quite a few years ago at a stockyards not far away that used to have sales on Wed. nights , [no longer in business ] you could buy from a certain person out of the back of his van, illegally killed deer price was dependent on whether it was a buck, doe or fawn.
A certain person in the Guelph area , was killing deer on his farm mainly at night and the meat was sold to an abattoir around Arnprior that was owned by a relative, he / they were caught and charged by the MNR. pleaded guilty and settled out of court as he was well known around Guelph due to his line of work.
Check this one out.
What a joke, 5000$ fine and 30 days in jail, give me a break. They gotta nail these guys to the freaking wall.
Apparently Johnny, you seem to have a different perspective on this than most of us!!
This old fella loved moose and it was less than half the price of beef. He wasn't a tourist, looking for antlers!!!! He was 3 hours from home and was getting the hunting trip. His main priority was meat for the winter. He even told me to shoot a bull , given the chance , he would tag it and split it with me. I could have filled his tag but didn't. I did however admire his mojo! Mid to upper 70,s, huntin alone in the middle of nowhere. Alternating between 4 wheeler and canoe. His hunting partner had passed on 3 months before the hunt.
So to sum it up,, it has, does and still is happening!!! Contrary to what "some" would like to believe!!