What's wrong with our Moose herd?

[GrizzlyAdams]

What I meant by plenty of food in the forest is that moose are not the only answer for their sustinence needs. There is plenty of food if you look for it like deer bear small game birds fish crops fruit trees etc. Someone said they heard of a guy shooting 30 moose...dont tell me they NEEDED that many to feed their family.
I dont expect the MNR to control them ever, its a matter of the government allowed a double standard to be created and thus it is now unfair as one side is completely unregulated and the other side is regulated up the wahzoo...IMO both sides should follow the same laws if preservation of the species is at risk. Creating double standards creates percieved unfairness which leads some of those that believe they are getting the short end of the stick to seek their own fairness maybe through poaching or seeing the rules and laws as they see fit. I dont expect anything to change soon but I do put blame on the government for allowing a double standard to be created.

Laws change as society changes. Maybe its time to start looking at whats fair for all and create 1 harmonious system of government. People are free to practice their own beliefs but IMO enough time has passed we should revisit there unregulated rights and seek out the abusers. I fully support feeding your family off of what the land provides but it disgusts me to hear of guys bragging about their kill count when I have a slim chance to even get a tag let alone share it with 9-13 ppl if I even want a fair shot at the draw. Im not a fan of moose calf tag for all or else I wouldnt have an opinion but now hunting pressure is going to shift to the calves i think. Instead of having 1 tag for 10+ people its easier to get 5 people together and each take a calf so I could see more people going for calf season who are meat hunters and only the trophy hunters will continue trying to get a bull tag.

[gibb]

The three main problems within this moose massacre are demographics of the population, metis status and a huge population of urban FN people living in major cities.
When you get a liberal judge making decisions that the rest of society has to live with there can be a lot of unintentional consequences.
I have no problem with true subsistence living and harvesting but what is going on since the Powley court case in Ontario in 2002 has nothing to do with culture or subsistence harvesting.
Personally I am fed up of listening to all the excuses and want to bring the true problem front and center to the table.
This is not about logging, access roads, spraying, fire suppression, winter tick kills, wolves or bears.
It is about humans over-harvesting a limited resource and it has to be dealt with.
Jim

[awndray]

GrizzlyAdams, I agree. I'm with you. Sadly, we won't see any of that change under the current leadership.

[GrizzlyAdams]

No your right and I doubt it will ever change. Sad but true. As a new hunter Im let down by the stories I hear of how it used to be and the abuse that takes place. Its a pitty that there isnt and most likely wont ever be 1 law for all to follow. I have friends that live up north and the stories I hear of perfectly good game meat going to waste is a crime. Abusers on both sides of the spectrum need to be held accountable. When it gets to the point 1 guy shoots 30 moose and I didnt even draw a tag its kinda off balance...maybe im just a sore loser? Lol

[awndray]

It looks like we live parallel lives. I'm in the same boat, having started hunting only 3 years ago. My friends all live in northern Ontario - where I make the trip for deer camp for the comaraderie - and I hear the same sad stories. It's very frustrating.

On a related note, my girlfriend worked for MNRF and is familiar with some of the wildlife management processes - and still knows the people in our district. The stories on the inside are just as sad and frustrating. The subject matter experts have their hands tied.

[Jellyheader]

I have been watching this thread with interest and would like to throw in my opinion. Not once has anyone ever recognized the fact that the adult moose tag system was originally designed to not allow party hunting for adult animals. The tag holder was the only person legally allowed to kill the animal they had a tag for. Tags were issued on this fact and designed for an allowable harvest to increase the population. Hunters, who had been used to shooting what they wanted, didn't like the restrictions and a large number were violating the party hunting regs. As a result of that and the whining about it the government changed the regs to allow for party hunting and the tag numbers remained unchanged. This was still not good enough for the average Ontario hunter so they changed the system to allow for guaranteed group sizes. Every time tags were reduced there was an uproar by hunters and tags were eventually issued by politics rather than biology. No wonder the moose population has not increased the way it should have with the original designed system.

Another reason for the decline is the advent of the ATV. 30 years ago very few groups would think of shooting a moose that they couldn't carry out of the bush to a pick up parked along side of a logging road or to a boat on a waterway. Now there are not many spots you can't take an ATV to with a little bit of work and as a result more moose are shot in remote areas where once they would have been safe.

I lived in the north for over 20 years and the stories of FN hunters killing 30 plus moose have been around the whole time but rarely were the numbers confirmed.

Rather than blaming the declining population on FN hunters it is time that we all take responsibility for the declining populations and resign ourselves to the fact that we might not be able to go moose hunting every year. Rather than ing and whining about the MNR not doing their job come up with a better plan to increase moose populations. Oh Ya one of those plans can't include changing the FN right to harvest because that's not going to change as it is their Constitutional Right and that right has been guaranteed through countless decisions by the Supreme Court of Canada.

[trimmer21]

Another reason for the decline is the advent of the ATV. 30 years ago very few groups would think of shooting a moose that they couldn't carry out of the bush to a pick up parked along side of a logging road or to a boat on a waterway. Now there are not many spots you can't take an ATV to with a little bit of work and as a result more moose are shot in remote areas where once they would have been safe.

I lived in the north for over 20 years and the stories of FN hunters killing 30 plus moose have been around the whole time but rarely were the numbers confirmed.

Extended access to areas previously too far for the average hunter,without doubt,has contributed to Moose population density drop probably more than we know. When I first started hunting Moose at age 17,all that was available was to quarter a Moose and spend the next two days hauling it out by pack over rough terrain and expansive swamps and muskeg or by watercraft,usually canoes,feats definitely not for the faint of heart or those of advanced age or the over-weight and out-of-shape. ATV's changed all that. Maybe,therein lies part of the answer.

[ysyg]

The point about ATVs allowing everyone to get to more remote areas is a contributing factor for sure. There is no doubt in my mind that if the MNR didn't issue any tags next year ........... The number of moose killed would not drop by 20 percent. I don't know how to fix the problem but I sure hope it can be resolved before it's too late.

[pbonura]

I have been watching this thread with interest and would like to throw in my opinion. Not once has anyone ever recognized the fact that the adult moose tag system was originally designed to not allow party hunting for adult animals. The tag holder was the only person legally allowed to kill the animal they had a tag for. Tags were issued on this fact and designed for an allowable harvest to increase the population. Hunters, who had been used to shooting what they wanted, didn't like the restrictions and a large number were violating the party hunting regs. As a result of that and the whining about it the government changed the regs to allow for party hunting and the tag numbers remained unchanged. This was still not good enough for the average Ontario hunter so they changed the system to allow for guaranteed group sizes. Every time tags were reduced there was an uproar by hunters and tags were eventually issued by politics rather than biology. No wonder the moose population has not increased the way it should have with the original designed system.

Another reason for the decline is the advent of the ATV. 30 years ago very few groups would think of shooting a moose that they couldn't carry out of the bush to a pick up parked along side of a logging road or to a boat on a waterway. Now there are not many spots you can't take an ATV to with a little bit of work and as a result more moose are shot in remote areas where once they would have been safe.

I lived in the north for over 20 years and the stories of FN hunters killing 30 plus moose have been around the whole time but rarely were the numbers confirmed.

Rather than blaming the declining population on FN hunters it is time that we all take responsibility for the declining populations and resign ourselves to the fact that we might not be able to go moose hunting every year. Rather than ing and whining about the MNR not doing their job come up with a better plan to increase moose populations. Oh Ya one of those plans can't include changing the FN right to harvest because that's not going to change as it is their Constitutional Right and that right has been guaranteed through countless decisions by the Supreme Court of Canada.

Great post but if you can not control the fn hunters how does controlling the same regulated hunters help the moose population. Cut tags for regulated hunters and the fn hunters come in before the season and harvest everything. No point all hunters need to be involved and I not one with a tonne of faith in the fn group limiting there harvest.

[gibb]

I do not think most folks understand the impact of metis hunters into this picture, the Powley decision extend subsistence hunting rights to a whole group of people who use to have to follow the regular hunting regulations.
This court decision has been used across Canada, most of you are thinking only Ontario and what you think you know. The moose herd is in trouble right across Canada except for the Island of Newfoundland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Powley
The other big issue is FN demographics;
http://www.td.com/document/PDF/econo...iginal_nhs.pdf
It is not only the FN who have the right for subsistence hunting.