Blood Trail??

Hi everyone. I am new to this forum, and I need some help. I am currently being investigated and assume will be charged due to an incident that occurred about a week ago. I was deer hunting on property I was permitted to hunt on. I called in a small buck and using a crossbow, shot an arrow into his front shoulder as he was directly facing me. Not an ideal shot, I realize, but it was lethal. To make a long story short, the deer ran into the adjacent vacant lot (50 ft) away and died. I was then reported to the adjacent landowner by a "fellow" hunter who didn't want me hunting in his general area. The MNR came and I showed them exactly what happened, and was 100 percent cooperative. I honestly did not think it was a big deal. I didn't hide anything, as in my mind there was nothing wrong. Unbelievably, the canines were brought in and DNA samples were also collected (an amazing waste of government resources). I was then told I was not telling the truth, as the dogs are always right. I explained to the CO that sometimes when a deer is hit, especially the way I hit this deer, that they sometimes do not bleed for some distance. This wasn't possible in his opinion. So they took my deer, and now I am awaiting a court trial and it looks like a bunch of charges as they don't believe me. Frustrating to say the least. If any of you could share times you have not found any blood on a lethal shot, or, if you have had experience with this type of nonsense. Any advice or experience you could provide would help me defend myself. I am going to fight this to the bitter end. Thirty years of hunting and never even a warning! Thanks!


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It would help if you describe the charges. Thing is even if you shot the deer where you had permission to hunt but it died on land you don't have permission to access you would be trespassing had you went to retrieve it.

There should be hair on the ground at the location of where the deer was initially hit by the crossbow bolt.

Yes, agreed. But the dogs track blood not hair, so it wouldn't make a difference to them.


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Sparky what are the charges you are facing?

Not sure yet. They said that the crown would decide once all evidence was handed over. I am assuming trespass to hunt, illegal possession of deer, obstruction, lying to CO. Some, maybe all of these. All based on dog evidence. The dogs couldn't even find the trail of the deer past the gut pile where it was dragged to a trailer. Keep in mind none of this was in any way shape or form concealed from anyone.


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Going to be hard to beat the trespass charge. Did you tag the deer where it dropped?

So....let me understand.... you shot a deer on property you had permission to hunt on and it died on the neighbours property? What happened next? Did you retrieve, tag the animal, gut it and then have the MNR show up while you are putting it in the trailer? Sorry but details are lacking

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Originally Posted by fratri

So....let me understand.... you shot a deer on property you had permission to hunt on and it died on the neighbours property? What happened next? Did you retrieve, tag the animal, gut it and then have the MNR show up while you are putting it in the trailer? Sorry but details are lacking

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Yup some of the details are missing. Feel the OP thinks where he shot the animal matters but I think that's a mute point.
Crossed the property line without permission....... that's a ticket
Dragged the animal back to your side before tagging.... that's a ticket

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Originally Posted by fratri

So....let me understand.... you shot a deer on property you had permission to hunt on and it died on the neighbours property? What happened next? Did you retrieve, tag the animal, gut it and then have the MNR show up while you are putting it in the trailer? Sorry but details are lacking

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These are all valid questions that need to be answered. As far as blood goes I have arrowed deer (fatally) where I didn't find any blood for 100yds or more. I have also been bowhunting for 30+ years. TC

Tagged deer where it dropped. MNR didn't show up until two days later after my fellow hunter reported me for hunting in his area (he assumed I was not allowed on either property). Deer was in my garage, skinned and still tagged. MNR knows I put in my trailer. They know I had permission to hunt on the property where I was hunting. They claimed deer was shot and died on neighbours property (the property where no permission was granted). All because dogs found blood trail on that property, as it hadn't started till then.


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And I should also mention that atv trail into side of property did not have any type of no trespassing sign posted. There is one on the far road side, but not on the atv trail leading into the side of property. Trespass act requires all points of access to be clearly marked. They said as long as the road side is posted, nothing else has to be. Completely contradicting the Act.


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Originally Posted by Sparky494

Tagged deer where it dropped. MNR didn't show up until two days later after my fellow hunter reported me for hunting in his area (he assumed I was not allowed on either property). Deer was in my garage, skinned and still tagged. MNR knows I put in my trailer. They know I had permission to hunt on the property where I was hunting. They claimed deer was shot and died on neighbours property (the property where no permission was granted). All because dogs found blood trail on that property, as it hadn't started till then.


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It did die on the neighbouring property right?

At what point did bow hunting that close to a property that you had no permission to enter seem like a good idea? Did you ever consider that very seldom do deer drop on the spot when bow hunting.

you should contacted the land owner and advised that a deer you shot entered his land and you would like permission to retrieve it, if he had said no, then call the mnr and advise.

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Originally Posted by Sparky494

And I should also mention that atv trail into side of property did not have any type of no trespassing sign posted. There is one on the far road side, but not on the atv trail leading into the side of property. Trespass act requires all points of access to be clearly marked. They said as long as the road side is posted, nothing else has to be. Completely contradicting the Act.


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But you knew where the property line was and you knew you didn't have permission to enter it.

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Originally Posted by Sparky494

And I should also mention that atv trail into side of property did not have any type of no trespassing sign posted. There is one on the far road side, but not on the atv trail leading into the side of property. Trespass act requires all points of access to be clearly marked. They said as long as the road side is posted, nothing else has to be. Completely contradicting the Act.


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Hope your not relying on this as your defense. You knew you did not have permission for adjacent land maybe that's why your fellow hunter report you.

Still remember from hunting course. Notify landowner if you must retrieve game. If permission not granted you call the MNR, explain obstruction & they will deal with it. In your situation it was a vacant lot & if you had no idea of who owns property you should have at least notified MNR & they would of helped you retrieve it. Are you a member of OFAH? If so contact them & they may have a lawyer to help you.

Okay, good advice on the OFAH. I will look into it. And, no, I did not know where the property line was, we are talking parcels that are over 15 acres each in size, both completely vacant. My deer was laying 40 feet from me. If you can honestly tell me that you would have left it there and called the property owner, I would have to call you a liar. That's insane. Have you ever heard of the privacy act? Even if I wanted to contact he owner of the land, it might take days of investigation to find out who it is. As I had mentioned, the deer was laying dead fifty feet from me. Middle of the bush, vacant land. Not sure which property it was on, as I accessed it from the atv trail on back.


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See we all complain how trespassing is ruining our sport. If you where hunting 15 acre plots you should of had some contact just in case prior to hunting the area. You already know that you where having issues with a "fellow" hunter and I think it was your disregard for private land even if it was vacant. Though the ATV trail seem to indicate it was in use.
Good luck Sparky. Me If I was caught trespassing I would pay the fine and be done with it.

Well, good luck with that, please provide an update on how helpful the ofah is with this.

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Originally Posted by Sparky494

Okay, good advice on the OFAH. I will look into it. And, no, I did not know where the property line was, we are talking parcels that are over 15 acres each in size, both completely vacant. My deer was laying 40 feet from me. If you can honestly tell me that you would have left it there and called the property owner, I would have to call you a liar. That's insane. Have you ever heard of the privacy act? Even if I wanted to contact he owner of the land, it might take days of investigation to find out who it is. As I had mentioned, the deer was laying dead fifty feet from me. Middle of the bush, vacant land. Not sure which property it was on, as I accessed it from the atv trail on back.


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In today's times with more rules/laws being implemented by antis ( remember land owners use infrared cameras for security too) I've learned to plan ahead & not cross anyone's fence or property. You never know who, when, & where you are being watched. As above mentioned. If you can deal with a trespassing fine deal with it. If the MNR goes further with it, then they may make your hunting future costly or lose privledges for a bit??? Good luck though.

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Originally Posted by Sparky494

Okay, good advice on the OFAH. I will look into it. And, no, I did not know where the property line was, we are talking parcels that are over 15 acres each in size, both completely vacant. My deer was laying 40 feet from me. If you can honestly tell me that you would have left it there and called the property owner, I would have to call you a liar. That's insane. Have you ever heard of the privacy act? Even if I wanted to contact he owner of the land, it might take days of investigation to find out who it is. As I had mentioned, the deer was laying dead fifty feet from me. Middle of the bush, vacant land. Not sure which property it was on, as I accessed it from the atv trail on back.


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fourth sentence you say the deer was laying 40 feet from you . In the ninth sentence you say the deer was laying 50 feet from you.

which was it? One of those sentences is a lie.

and yes I have heard of the privacy act, I have also heard of the trespass act and you admitted in your first post that the deer ran onto the adjacent property, now you claim you didn't know what property you were on. I clearly understand why the CO made the comment that you are a liar.

when you get in front of a justice of the peace, you best stick to one story and one measurement.

Yes- it would have helped Sparky's cause had he contacted the landowner before retrieving the deer. But, on the other hand I have come across a CO or two in my time who had egos the size of a Buick and at times went wildly overboard with their charges. I know of one who laid seven separate fines on a goose hunter- after the trial six were dropped. Go to court explain yourself to the judge- include character witnesses and in all likely hood you may end up with nothing more than a trespassing fine. But as a landowner as well I cannot stress how important it is, if you shot a deer and it expires on another property to ask to retrieve it from the landowner and if they give you any grief then contact the MNR -good luck

In my "understanding" we as ethical hunters are suppose to do everything in our power to retrieve any and all animals we shoot.
Yes I get it.. He had to trespass however without a home or anything on the property he can't go knocking.
Should he have gone and looked up landowner through the "township"?
Than call and ask if it is "ok" to drag it out?
What if guy said "No" ? Than he would have to call MNR to recover the deer for him?
I know 1-800-tips line they don't answer you back for awhile.
Therefore the deer would most likely spoil..
I personally would fight this hand downs..
MNR showed up days later with a dog to track blood, I've shot deer where 0 blood trail for at least 50-100ft away with snow down.
So to me for them to find blood days later to the exact spot which you hit the deer are nearly impossible.
And you also claim u hit it straight on I doubt the bolt even went through the deer. Until its belly chest filled up with blood. Than it could leak out the hole from bolt.
At worst I don't think you would get anything more than a "trespass" fine.
As long as you did shoot the deer on the property you had permission on.
Good Luck Fight it all the way.
Flip

It would be interesting to hear the other side of the story from the fellow hunter that turned him in....his side of the story may be what the CO's are reacting to.

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Originally Posted by flippin

In my "understanding" we as ethical hunters are suppose to do everything in our power to retrieve any and all animals we shoot.
Yes I get it.. He had to trespass however without a home or anything on the property he can't go knocking.
Should he have gone and looked up landowner through the "township"?
Than call and ask if it is "ok" to drag it out?
What if guy said "No" ? Than he would have to call MNR to recover the deer for him?
I know 1-800-tips line they don't answer you back for awhile.
Therefore the deer would most likely spoil..
I personally would fight this hand downs..
MNR showed up days later with a dog to track blood, I've shot deer where 0 blood trail for at least 50-100ft away with snow down.
So to me for them to find blood days later to the exact spot which you hit the deer are nearly impossible.
And you also claim u hit it straight on I doubt the bolt even went through the deer. Until its belly chest filled up with blood. Than it could leak out the hole from bolt.
At worst I don't think you would get anything more than a "trespass" fine.
As long as you did shoot the deer on the property you had permission on.
Good Luck Fight it all the way.
Flip

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Here is a thought. Reason I'm hunting a very small area 15 acres why not contact adjacent owners before the hunt for just such situations . At least that is what a responsible person would do.

thank you all for reminding me why I have not been on this site in a while. A fellow hunter asks for some help and this is how you treat him. Sounds like to me he did everything right.

"Here is a thought. Reason I'm hunting a very small area 15 acres why not contact adjacent owners before the hunt for just such situations . At least that is what a responsible person would do.'

Are you serious here, hahaha, I own 4 farms and hunt a couple others and I know that the other farms I hunt were enough time finding the property lines and permission. Now I should let every neighbouring property owner know I am hunting!!! HAHAHAA A friend of mine had a bow shot deer run 3 concessions, should he have had pre permission on all of those farms too!!

This is the problem with many of you on this site. We are hunters and need to stick together. Ok if he shot the deer on the other property then cruisify him. But because he tracked a deer on a neighboring property we stick it to him. What a joke. I was actually coming on here to post a pic of the monster buck I got this year, but now I see it is really not worth it because im sure someone will find something to complain about

Good luck with your charges and if you were in the right then don't worry

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Originally Posted by bowdren

thank you all for reminding me why I have not been on this site in a while. A fellow hunter asks for some help and this is how you treat him. Sounds like to me he did everything right.

"Here is a thought. Reason I'm hunting a very small area 15 acres why not contact adjacent owners before the hunt for just such situations . At least that is what a responsible person would do.'

Are you serious here, hahaha, I own 4 farms and hunt a couple others and I know that the other farms I hunt were enough time finding the property lines and permission. Now I should let every neighbouring property owner know I am hunting!!! HAHAHAA A friend of mine had a bow shot deer run 3 concessions, should he have had pre permission on all of those farms too!!

This is the problem with many of you on this site. We are hunters and need to stick together. Ok if he shot the deer on the other property then cruisify him. But because he tracked a deer on a neighboring property we stick it to him. What a joke. I was actually coming on here to post a pic of the monster buck I got this year, but now I see it is really not worth it because im sure someone will find something to complain about

Good luck with your charges and if you were in the right then don't worry

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By the letter of the law no he shouldn't have had PRE permission on all those farms, but he 100% should have had permission on each one before trespassing to track his animal (or pre contacted the MNR to assist).

It sounds the the OP came on here to get an army of hunters rally behind him that he was absolutely right and there shouldn't be any charges laid ra ra ra, and no offense meant by that statement Sparky, but most of the people on here have many years of experience and have dealt with these situations in one way or another and you got quite defensive when anyone mentioned anything negative, AND you mixed up your story in a written medium while not being questioned.

Personally I agree with you if I had shot a deer and it died 40..... or 50 feet from me I probably would have tracked tagged on the spot (drag back to the property I have permission (10 feet or so approx I assume)) gutted it and called it a day, however you did trespass and if you mixed up your story as bad as you did on here the MNR officer (potentially a dick you never said anything about his character) probably had a reason to give you such a hard time.

Like most people have said you are probably staring down a trespassing charge and nothing more if you explain yourself more concisely when appearing before a Justice.

You probably did something that 99% of us would have done and got caught doing it by some unfavorable people, that sucks but it is what it is laws exist for a reason.

-Steve

Hey fins, I should probably call everyone in my entire area first too. Actually, maybe the entire township, or just to be prepared; the District. And, I should most likely bring four changes of clothes, three cell phones, a township map, two GPS, and a pack of flares just in case. Lol. Get real dude. I assume you don't hunt much, and if you do, you probably spend more time worrying if you left the stove on at home, instead of hunting. Please people, lets try and keep replies reasonable and realistic, and at least semi-intelligent. I posted on here to hopefully hear some rational and helpful ideas on your experiences that maybe similar. I haven't given every detail, simply because it would take three pages. It sums up as: I shot a deer on property I was allowed to be on. It ran and died APPPROX 40-50 ft away. I went and got it. I didn't know I had crossed into the neighbouring property to get it, as there is no clear boundary, nor is there any posted signs where I was (a well-used ATV trail). The MNR dogs only found blood on the neighbours property, and now claim I shot it over there. The shot was high and from the front. I didn't try to hide anything during his entire process. And, I live up the road from where this all happened. I had nothing to hide from anyone. The deer didn't bleed for at least 50 ft. MNR is treating me like a criminal. Ruined my reputation amongst my neighbours, scared my young children coming into my home to take away deer (three officers and three trucks!) and have caused a black mark on my reputation in my small town. I am also a business owner who is liked, and well respected in my area. I find this unacceptable, even if I simply trespassed to retrieve my deer. We need CO's to be a bit more understanding in the field. Following the letter of the law without regard to anything else will never work.


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Originally Posted by bowdren

thank you all for reminding me why I have not been on this site in a while. A fellow hunter asks for some help and this is how you treat him. Sounds like to me he did everything right.

This is the problem with many of you on this site. We are hunters and need to stick together.

Good luck with your charges and if you were in the right then don't worry

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:goodstuff:

Bowdren how long you been away? Nothing has changed, the internet CO's and Lawyers all have to have their say, the OP should have known this... 'ell you could almost guess the members that would volunteer the be the CO, Judge and Jury, I'm just surprised more of them didn't come up with the sentencing. All of them holy the thou!

To the OP's question, yes I have had a fatally shot deer run with no blood, no hair, nothing, it was even a heart shot! My bolt went through him, took out the bottom of his heart, hit the leg on the other side and stopped, the broad head was broken off when he jumped and ran, the shaft was now sticking out both sides, in essence closing the wound up, he bleed out inside. I had very few, small droplets of blood start at about 30 (+ or - for Mr. Wilson) He ran 40-50 yards, then stopped, then there was blood, a huge pool of it, he took another 3 steps and dropped.

Another deer I shot from the tree stand at about 5-7 yards, a very steep angled shot that was also of very poor placement... he was walking and I did not stop him, hit him back. The fatty tissue closed the exit hole up; but I had hit an artery and he bled out inside. If not for watching him drop, I may not have gotten him, I thought he was walking away.

So, yes you made a poor choice of shot; but look to your exit hole, that may explain why there was no blood.

Sparky, you did everything right and I don't see a problem in retrieving the animal. Trespass charge (maybe) and that's it. Law enforecement these days are a little over the top because of government politics. Hopefully common sense will prevail.

Good luck, I beleive everything will work out fine for you.

"E"

A trespassing ticket is bad enough , but he also lost his deer and his tag, that really hurts.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Here is a thought. Reason I'm hunting a very small area 15 acres why not contact adjacent owners before the hunt for just such situations . At least that is what a responsible person would do.

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I see you are possibly 1 of those guys who sit behind the comp and just Blah Blah Blah..
As for Responsible hunter he was....
He didn't realize he was on other persons property.
But he did do his part to recover the deer!!
Good on you for that.
Bowdren you are exactly right. I don't post much on here because of the bashing from others that think they know everything.
Yet when the MNR show up at their door they will be the 1st to cry also.
Good Luck Sparky
Don't just give up.
Flip

Go to court and have a trial. Sit down and make detailed notes of what you did, what you said to the CO, when the dogs were used, what the dogs did, the description of the property, etc. Go back, take photos of the site, where you were, where the deer died etc. Photo should show there is no fence or postings. Take photos of the entrance trail to the property in question, showing no postings. Certain land requires proper posting, and some do not. A two day old dog track is of no value at a trial. A lot can happen in a couple days to render any dog evidence useless.
The fact that you were truthfuly answering the CO's questions, showed him where things happened etc., will go a long way at trial. Charging someone with Obstruct etc, based on two day old dog track evidence is ridiculous.
There is always two or three sides to any story. Strictly from what your side is, it seems pretty heavy handed to me. If you are successful at trial, ask for your deer back ! Depending on what charges are laid, I'd be calling a lawyer. Good luck !!

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Originally Posted by Sparky494

Hey fins, I should probably call everyone in my entire area first too. Actually, maybe the entire township, or just to be prepared; the District. And, I should most likely bring four changes of clothes, three cell phones, a township map, two GPS, and a pack of flares just in case. Lol. Get real dude. I assume you don't hunt much, and if you do, you probably spend more time worrying if you left the stove on at home, instead of hunting. Please people, lets try and keep replies reasonable and realistic, and at least semi-intelligent. I posted on here to hopefully hear some rational and helpful ideas on your experiences that maybe similar. I haven't given every detail, simply because it would take three pages. It sums up as: I shot a deer on property I was allowed to be on. It ran and died APPPROX 40-50 ft away. I went and got it. I didn't know I had crossed into the neighbouring property to get it, as there is no clear boundary, nor is there any posted signs where I was (a well-used ATV trail). The MNR dogs only found blood on the neighbours property, and now claim I shot it over there. The shot was high and from the front. I didn't try to hide anything during his entire process. And, I live up the road from where this all happened. I had nothing to hide from anyone. The deer didn't bleed for at least 50 ft. MNR is treating me like a criminal. Ruined my reputation amongst my neighbours, scared my young children coming into my home to take away deer (three officers and three trucks!) and have caused a black mark on my reputation in my small town. I am also a business owner who is liked, and well respected in my area. I find this unacceptable, even if I simply trespassed to retrieve my deer. We need CO's to be a bit more understanding in the field. Following the letter of the law without regard to anything else will never work.


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I've hunted for many years and hunt mostly private land. The biggest complaint from land owners is the disrespect people have regarding private property. Trespassing is a serious issue amongst our community as some or most by the looks of it feel they can cross borders as they please.
Sparky from your post seems your very local to the area and should of respected your neighbors more so. The CO's did nothing to tarnish your reputation you did that on your own.
In life there are three sides to the story. Yours, Theirs, and the truth. Go to court present your side why you feel it was your right to enter private property, and you knew it was private property.

yikes.
dude it sounds like you shot a deer, did everything you thought was right and in the middle of it, ended up tresspassing by accident.
it also sounds like the other hunter who was asinine enough to call it in is sitting with a tag he wish he could have put on your deer, and threw you under the bus.
yeah-- i get the fact that you tresspassed and if you recognize it, be cool with paying the fine. you did it to get the deer you shot and by accident, made a mistake. if you knew it was private and thought "screw it, i want my deer" i get that too, but be cool with paying the fine then :P

sorry to hear about the bad luck, screwed season and now lost meat and the fact that you're now in hot water. perhaps the other hunter is convinced that you were hunting "his" or "her" lot and wants to send you a message? the thing about a written law is the fact that it does not judge with expectations or grace involved. it just judges. based on that, it looks like you've got a ticket, some explaining to do and if you're lucky, the landowner of the spot you have is understanding enough to let you continue to hunt. the only loophole you can find is the fact that it could possibly be not posted well enough. if you can go that route, maybe you can be let off the charges. doubt you'll get your meat back though.

Ugh... Gotta love times like these.

basing this only on the info you've provided. My first question is we're you cautioned prior to being asked questions by the mnr? Did you feel obligated to speak to them? You were suspected of an offence. imo you should have at least received a caution. At best you have a trespassing issue however, from the sounds of it you did it in good faith.

The he comment on the dog is completely incorrect. A dog is only as good as the handler. This if the handler misses an indicator its an inaccurate track. I'd focus on the skills of the dog handler. Like everything there a good handlers and not so good handlers. Dogs are generally trained to track the freshest scent. In the open woods, that scent may disipate quickly. So if the handler or dog lost the scent tracking it back to your original location that would explain, or at least give doubt as to why the dog never tracked it back to where you say it happened.

Be be sure to request disclosure, in writing. you will received copies of any notes, statements in the file. You'll need to attend the courthouse to make this request. You're entitled to know what they are going to say you did before your trial.

i know it sucks, but try to remember these are only charges, not convictions.

Who is the complainant charging you with trespassing?..... No mention of the owner doing it.

I may have missed it, but did the deer cross a fence or any barrier like that, dividing the 2 properties? Was it posted where it crossed.

If the CO is waiting to see what the crown says about charges, then he does not have a very strong case, otherwise he would have just charged you himself.

OFAH will not help you.

Make good notes now and take pics as others have mentioned.

Then just wait and see if you get summonsed to court.

The big issue here is if the property line is properly posted. It doesn't sound like it was posted property or fenced and if that is the case, you will likely not be charged at all.

If you are charged with trespassing, it will likely be under the FWCA as opposed to the Trespass to Property Act. Penalties under the FWCA for trespassing to hunt can be more than just a fine.

sometimes you have a CO or cop just looking to enforce the law. i had a cop drive by my van parked and noticed that it was posted private. the landowner was not home so he went to the neighbour (who i didn't know). turned out that the bush was shared, so the cop himself instigated the charge. neighbour had no issue with me hunting so cop wished me well and drove off. i always like to think the best of law enforcement but am aware that sometimes they're just looking to do their job-- which means enforcing the law.

i'm interested to hear how this pans out.

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Originally Posted by punkrockerpj

sometimes you have a CO or cop just looking to enforce the law. i had a cop drive by my van parked and noticed that it was posted private. the landowner was not home so he went to the neighbour (who i didn't know). turned out that the bush was shared, so the cop himself instigated the charge. neighbour had no issue with me hunting so cop wished me well and drove off. i always like to think the best of law enforcement but am aware that sometimes they're just looking to do their job-- which means enforcing the law.

i'm interested to hear how this pans out.

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Could also be considered proactive policing....which is nice to see.

Maybe they had a complaint about trespassing in the area.

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Originally Posted by Sparky494

Hi everyone. I am new to this forum, and I need some help. I am currently being investigated and assume will be charged due to an incident that occurred about a week ago. I was deer hunting on property I was permitted to hunt on. I called in a small buck and using a crossbow, shot an arrow into his front shoulder as he was directly facing me. Not an ideal shot, I realize, but it was lethal. To make a long story short, the deer ran into the adjacent vacant lot (50 ft) away and died. I was then reported to the adjacent landowner by a "fellow" hunter who didn't want me hunting in his general area. The MNR came and I showed them exactly what happened, and was 100 percent cooperative. I honestly did not think it was a big deal. I didn't hide anything, as in my mind there was nothing wrong. Unbelievably, the canines were brought in and DNA samples were also collected (an amazing waste of government resources). I was then told I was not telling the truth, as the dogs are always right. I explained to the CO that sometimes when a deer is hit, especially the way I hit this deer, that they sometimes do not bleed for some distance. This wasn't possible in his opinion. So they took my deer, and now I am awaiting a court trial and it looks like a bunch of charges as they don't believe me. Frustrating to say the least. If any of you could share times you have not found any blood on a lethal shot, or, if you have had experience with this type of nonsense. Any advice or experience you could provide would help me defend myself. I am going to fight this to the bitter end. Thirty years of hunting and never even a warning! Thanks!


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Dont worry about the dog BS, it won't mean anything unless someone saw you shot that deer on next door property!?
I'm not blaming you but you did trespass, right or wrong that's the rules so you'll get charge for that.

And don't waste your time with some of the member on this website, must of them never had to retrieve a deer or they would understand that unfortunately some situations call for tresspassing.

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Originally Posted by fratri

Who is the complainant charging you with trespassing?..... No mention of the owner doing it.

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I'm wonder too! Sounds like the owner wants him charged.

First of all it sounds like the CO's totally went overboard on this one, yes it appears that trespassing occurred but the reaction seems overboard.

Here's the part I don't really understand (and the part you might want to have clear if/when you need to go to court)

You shot a deer on property you had permission to hunt. It traveled 50ft and ended up on the neighboring property. The property line is not well marked (?).
Questions:
1. How do you know you were actually on the property you thought you were on?
2. How does the other side know the deer fell on the neighboring property?
-did they find the pegs?

Now as far as the criticism goes when you throw something out to the public you have to expect some blowback, nature of the beast. However if you plan to hunt less than 50ft from a property line I think you should expect that there is a good chance that you will need to retrieve an animal from the neighboring property so getting permission to do so ahead of time is not that unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by punkrockerpj

sometimes you have a CO or cop just looking to enforce the law. i had a cop drive by my van parked and noticed that it was posted private. the landowner was not home so he went to the neighbour (who i didn't know). turned out that the bush was shared, so the cop himself instigated the charge. neighbour had no issue with me hunting so cop wished me well and drove off. i always like to think the best of law enforcement but am aware that sometimes they're just looking to do their job-- which means enforcing the law.

i'm interested to hear how this pans out.

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Of course they are looking to enforce the laws. That's what they do !!!!

You have to realize that law enforcement is all about creating a need for there services to keep there " business " thriving. If the wardens are not charging people and the OPP are not ticketing people then there is obviously less of a need for them, so more tickets and charges means the public " needs " us more. Which translates into bigger budgets.
It's unfortunate that they felt they needed 3 Officers and 3 trucks to come and steal your dear and serve a single ticket. It must have been embarrassing for you and your family.


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Doesn't say anywhere he was served a ticket. As for the rest of your post it makes about zero sense.

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Originally Posted by Rugger

First of all it sounds like the CO's totally went overboard on this one, yes it appears that trespassing occurred but the reaction seems overboard.

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The other side of the story may shed some light on the actions of the CO...should hear it before we criticize them.

HERE'S ONE FOR YA!

An older Italian gentleman (now deceased) (I knew him well) was raided by the cops and accused of bootlegging wine. He had something like 10,000 liters. Everyone went to him for wine. (yes he was somewhat guilty) Anyway the cops seized his wine and he was charged. Months later - he beat the charges because he said it was for his own consumption. The crown returned his wine to him. He told them it had all gone bad and sued the crown for the value of the wine. He won again and got - like $80,000 ..
we all laughed like h*ll! He said it was the biggest sale he ever had!

However your case ends up - especially if you beat it. demand your deer returned! If they can not produce it then sue for the value of venison on the open market.

It sure boggles the mind that they can bully their way in the way they did. 3 trucks. 3 officers. confiscations - 2 days later - in front of your family and little girl ....
If they can embarrass you in your town like that ..

my suggestion is - fight it!

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The other side of the story may shed some light on the actions of the CO...should hear it before we criticize them.

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PM sent. Take it to the JP. Get a little common sense in that recipe

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Originally Posted by Duckguy

Doesn't say anywhere he was served a ticket. As for the rest of your post it makes about zero sense.

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You are correct, my mistake on the ticket.
As for the rest of the post, if you choose to not see it does not mean it isn't true.
Someone has to pay for those 3 trucks and 3 C.O.s !!


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Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment. A lot of what you mentioned will help me to prepare for what's next. I will keep you informed.


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What kind of guy calls the MNR for something like this.....

"I shot a deer on property I was allowed to be on. It ran and died APPPROX 40-50 ft away. I went and got it. I didn't know I had crossed into the neighbouring property to get it, as there is no clear boundary, nor is there any posted signs where I was (a well-used ATV trail)"

If you didnt know you crossed into neighbours to retrieve the deer how can you be so certain you werent on the neighbours property when you shot the deer? Im not saying you knew or didnt either way but if thats what you say in court someone is going to ask. And no offence but if you live in the area and know everyone you should have known who owned the property you set up right on the boundary of and asked if it was cool to retrieve on his land if needed. Maybe the guy that had permission to be on that property had been hunting all morning to have you come strolling in and walk right through his area and it ticked him off. Someone had to have seen you on that property to say something to the landowner that reported you to the mnr. Reading your version of events is leaving more questions than it is giving answers. Hopefully you get it all sorted out and things dont get too serious for you. Do like others have said and take lots of pictures of where everything was and hopefully you can get whatever charges they hit you with dropped or reduced.

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Originally Posted by fratri

What kind of guy calls the MNR for something like this.....

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Well obviously the other hunter in the area didnt like him being there so cried to the owner about sparky trespassing. Dont know why the owner would call over a deer retrieval. Maybe he has nothing better to do or has a serious trespassing problem on his property and this was the last straw for him. Or maybe the guy hunting the property leased it from the owner so when he complained the owner felt obligated to do something about it. Who knows? Could be any number of reasons.

I ran into the other hunter the next day in the property where I was hunting. He asked if I shot a deer and I told him i did (I was proud that I called a deer into range!). I know the guy, he's a bit of an , but figured we are both hunting and maybe we could chat about the area, deer sign, etc. I wouldn't have said anything to him had I known he was going to run to the other property owner and rile him up. I didn't think anything of it as I had felt I had done nothing wrong. I know it's impossible to break the entire story down so people can understand on here, so I won't get into the finer details. Basically a guy ratted me out to a property owner that I didn't know, and had never met. Did I do something wrong by dragging my deer off of his property unknowingly? Maybe. Was there intent? No. Was it that serious? No. Did he have that entrance posted? No. And it goes on. I will say that if this does not go to court, or charges are dropped, I will be speaking to a lawyer about civil action. They cannot do this and get away with it. And the old excuse "I am just doing my job" does not suffice. As the first person on any scene, it is up to them to decide if things should go this far. People must also keep in mind that this "investigation" has probably cost upwards of $10,000. And, we are all paying for it. Imagine how many other nonsensical cases are happening right now? Do the math. Plain silliness.


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Was it posted or was there a fence where you crossed into the other property to get the deer??

That will be the biggest factor in whether you get charged or not.

Good luck with civil action.....if it doesn't go to court it means it was just an investigation that no charges were laid in.

If it does go to court, it means the officer or the crown felt there were enough grounds to lay a charge.

Bottom line is that by the sounds of it, you did break the law.

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Originally Posted by Sparky494

I ran into the other hunter the next day in the property where I was hunting. He asked if I shot a deer and I told him i did (I was proud that I called a deer into range!). I know the guy, he's a bit of an , but figured we are both hunting and maybe we could chat about the area, deer sign, etc. I wouldn't have said anything to him had I known he was going to run to the other property owner and rile him up. I didn't think anything of it as I had felt I had done nothing wrong. I know it's impossible to break the entire story down so people can understand on here, so I won't get into the finer details. Basically a guy ratted me out to a property owner that I didn't know, and had never met. Did I do something wrong by dragging my deer off of his property unknowingly? Maybe. Was there intent? No. Was it that serious? No. Did he have that entrance posted? No. And it goes on. I will say that if this does not go to court, or charges are dropped, I will be speaking to a lawyer about civil action. They cannot do this and get away with it. And the old excuse "I am just doing my job" does not suffice. As the first person on any scene, it is up to them to decide if things should go this far. People must also keep in mind that this "investigation" has probably cost upwards of $10,000. And, we are all paying for it. Imagine how many other nonsensical cases are happening right now? Do the math. Plain silliness.


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AGREED!!
Same people that are paying for me to be harassed 2 times in the same day on Simcoe while perch fishing.
You would have thought we had a meth lab going out there the way they would rush in and look around the hut like we are hiding Osama Bin Ladin.
Little bit much for a couple old guys catching a couple perch.


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i guess that means people and the COs dont have bigger issues to face?
:P

Not so sure the civil action will fly unless you can prove they knew you had not committed an offence and still pushed this anyways. If they received a complaint and had enough grounds to believe an offence may have been committed they were within their right to investigate as fully as they could to determine whether or not the offense had been committed. To not investigate fully would have been a derelict of their duty. If charges have not been laid they may be still investigating which may result in no charges being laid.

so what happens to the meat then? with all the time that passes, it doesnt make sense that they hold it for him.
is that a case where he just grins and bears it and allows the law to walk all over him?

Yes I have shot two deer with a crossbow that I could not find any blood , for the first 50 yards.
The deer were both found about 100 yards from where they were hit, both were hit high in the upper lung.

If you go to court make sure you get to, cross examine the Tracking DOG, I would love to here his side of the story.

Was there a fence where u crossed property lines? Or was it posted right there?

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Yup some of the details are missing. Feel the OP thinks where he shot the animal matters but I think that's a mute point.
Crossed the property line without permission....... that's a ticket
Dragged the animal back to your side before tagging.... that's a ticket

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...and I wouldn't want to be arguing against that in court. We all know how that works out.

My question for the OP is why he is hunting 50 feet off the property line, especially with a bow.
It's legal, yes, but it is just asking for this type of problem.

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Originally Posted by B Wilson

fourth sentence you say the deer was laying 40 feet from you . In the ninth sentence you say the deer was laying 50 feet from you.

which was it? One of those sentences is a lie.

and yes I have heard of the privacy act, I have also heard of the trespass act and you admitted in your first post that the deer ran onto the adjacent property, now you claim you didn't know what property you were on. I clearly understand why the CO made the comment that you are a liar.

when you get in front of a justice of the peace, you best stick to one story and one measurement.

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Yes, when the CO's play 20 questions with you, all the answers better match *exactly*.
And even if you like to him about something of little significance to the matter at hand, you have just made your life 100 times more difficult. Giving two precise but different distances - ouch.

Sparky, you're BOW hunting LESS than 13-16 yards away from another property you don't have permission on and you haven't got a clue where the property line is? That's not well thought out.

Try this map, it has most property lines marked on it. Also try setting up more in the middle of that lot to avoid the BS next year.

http://www.giscoeapp.lrc.gov.on.ca/m...M&locale=en-US

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Originally Posted by x_xeon_x

Try this map, it has most property lines marked on it.
http://www.giscoeapp.lrc.gov.on.ca/m...M&locale=en-US

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'
That's a good map....thanks for posting

So how would a landowner prove to the courts where his property line is? Just asking.

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Originally Posted by x_xeon_x

Try this map, it has most property lines marked on it. Also try setting up more in the middle of that lot to avoid the BS next year.

http://www.giscoeapp.lrc.gov.on.ca/m...M&locale=en-US

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Good map, thanks.

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Originally Posted by tracker

So how would a landowner prove to the courts where his property line is? Just asking.

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And that's the problem I have. Why in the world does the land owner have to prove anything. The land owner did nothing wrong. Let the person prove that he was legit. Any respectful hunter would try to follow the rules as best they can. If its an honest mistake or an infraction of convenience and you get caught fess up admit your mistake and make restitution. Don't get the crap of trying to blame everyone but themselves.

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So how would a landowner prove to the courts where his property line is? Just asking

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Bring a copy of his title and survey??

Look at the wording under the TPA. If the property line is not fenced, planted or signed, there is likely no offence. However, the OP hasn't answered how the property line was marked, so I am guessing it was fenced or similar.

I have access to 100 acres and 2 of the 5 stands are within 50 yards of the property line. No sense putting stands in the middle of the property if the deer aren't there. Also if you are hunting the property edge that means the deer you shoot has the full length of your property to fall in.
John

I am lucky to hunt an entire block where I bow hunt. A deer would have to run over 1000 yards before it hit a road or the next property. If I lose a deer on my property it's my fault & it would have to be a bad shot.

I have said this many times but this is where shot placement is critical. The OP said he shot the deer when it was facing him. This is a very low percentage shot & he should have waited for a better shot or let the deer walk. I know it's easier said than done when the moment of truth is upon us & buck-doe fever set's in but we owe it to the animals we shoot to put them down as quickly as possible.

I hope this post serves as a lesson to the hunters just starting out.

Find out who owns adjoining property's & ask for permission to retrive your deer in advance of this happening. Most farmers would allow it & would not want to see a deer rot in there bush or field.

Ensure you do all you can to put an arrow through the lungs or heart only. Frontal shot's althogh some-times work it's best to let them turn for that ideal shot or let them go....


Learn from the mistakes that others have made so it doesn't happen to you...

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Originally Posted by johnjyb

I have access to 100 acres and 2 of the 5 stands are within 50 yards of the property line. No sense putting stands in the middle of the property if the deer aren't there. Also if you are hunting the property edge that means the deer you shoot has the full length of your property to fall in.
John

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Unless it runs the other way...in which case 50 yards would put it off the property...

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Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter

I am lucky to hunt an entire block where I bow hunt. A deer would have to run over 1000 yards before it hit a road or the next property. If I lose a deer on my property it's my fault & it would have to be a bad shot.

I have said this many times but this is where shot placement is critical. The OP said he shot the deer when it was facing him. This is a very low percentage shot & he should have waited for a better shot or let the deer walk. I know it's easier said than done when the moment of truth is upon us & buck-doe fever set's in but we owe it to the animals we shoot to put them down as quickly as possible.

I hope this post serves as a lesson to the hunters just starting out.

Find out who owns adjoining property's & ask for permission to retrive your deer in advance of this happening. Most farmers would allow it & would not want to see a deer rot in there bush or field.

Ensure you do all you can to put an arrow through the lungs or heart only. Frontal shot's althogh some-times work it's best to let them turn for that ideal shot or let them go....


Learn from the mistakes that others have made so it doesn't happen to you...

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Good advice for people getting started.
I don't even like the frontal shot with a rifle...but I'll take it.
The other issue with a frontal shot is that there are really good odds the deer is looking at you.

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Originally Posted by Sparky494

Not sure yet. They said that the crown would decide once all evidence was handed over. I am assuming trespass to hunt, illegal possession of deer, obstruction, lying to CO. Some, maybe all of these. All based on dog evidence. The dogs couldn't even find the trail of the deer past the gut pile where it was dragged to a trailer. Keep in mind none of this was in any way shape or form concealed from anyone.

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That is an awful long list of potential charges. If the Crown dumps Obstruction on you, I'd go see a lawyer.

Most (experienced) Crowns are pretty darn good at picking apart people's 'view' of what transpired. If you're going to go to court, you better have your facts airtight.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

And that's the problem I have. Why in the world does the land owner have to prove anything. The land owner did nothing wrong. Let the person prove that he was legit. Any respectful hunter would try to follow the rules as best they can. If its an honest mistake or an infraction of convenience and you get caught fess up admit your mistake and make restitution. Don't get the crap of trying to blame everyone but themselves.

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Agreed, but the landowner becomes a witness for the crown to prove his case. As for bringing a copy of a survey it better be a certified copy. The CO did not lay any charges because he is not sure if there is an offence that can get a conviction and thats why he has to contact the crown. Most cases in courts are paid because it is cheaper and the easy way out. If you ever had the pleasure of working in the legal system you would understand that not all charges put before the courts are violations. Like mentioned earlier the OP better make detailed notes and pictures in case this goes to a trial a year or longer from the offence date. Fight It.

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If you ever had the pleasure of working in the legal system you would understand that not all charges put before the courts are violations

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An officer had better have Reasonable and probable grounds that an offense has been committed before laying a charge. If they lay a charge knowing that an offence was not committed it may be malicious prosecution which would be a criminal matter for the officer.

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Originally Posted by Duckguy

Doesn't say anywhere he was served a ticket. As for the rest of your post it makes about zero sense.

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it's very much about $$$$$. Any doubt about that suggests you're naive!

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

An officer had better have Reasonable and probable grounds that an offense has been committed before laying a charge. If they lay a charge knowing that an offence was not committed it may be malicious prosecution which would be a criminal matter for the officer.

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You would open that can of worms?

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

An officer had better have Reasonable and probable grounds that an offense has been committed before laying a charge. If they lay a charge knowing that an offence was not committed it may be malicious prosecution which would be a criminal matter for the officer.

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The RPG's would come from the complainant, and evidence from the landowner. Malicious prosecution is not a criminal offence, or an offence period, so the CO has no worries there.

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http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictiona...osecution.aspx

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Sorry. You're right. It would be a civil matter if that occurred.

Something seems odd here.
Another hunter calls MNR because your deer died on neighbors property?

First of all only the landowner can have you charged for trespassing and not anyone else.
The first thing law enforcement ask when you report a trespasser is if you own the land. If you say no then they will not investigate.

I'm not even sure if you do get charged with trespassing that they can confiscate the deer.

Also the hunter that called MNR, how does he know you shot a deer?

Sounds like there is more to this story.

Maybe the other hunter reported the deer being shot with a gun and not a bow hence all the investigating.

If what you are saying is true then you do not have anything to worry about.

If you're not doing anything wrong I've found most JP's are pretty good at sorting things out. I see why wardens and officers hesitate to bring charges forward that aren't iron clad. I think you'll find the JP pretty understanding if he smells an underhanded reason for the charge ie. an envious hunter trying to run you out. I'd be surprised if they lay a charge. I think they're giving you time to think about it and that's half the penalty. Get a lawyer if it's anything serious.

I agree with some others on this. Something seems a little off. Personal vendetta, jealousy,anti hunter??? Not sure what's going on here but good luck.

So last night my neighbour's son was kicking a soccer ball around really close to my yard. At one point the ball ended up on my front lawn and he came over to get it without asking me. I called the police and 3 cars showed up and he is being charged with trespassing. Sounds reasonable right?

I think people are wound a little too tightly these days...

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Originally Posted by GW11

So last night my neighbour's son was kicking a soccer ball around really close to my yard. At one point the ball ended up on my front lawn and he came over to get it without asking me. I called the police and 3 cars showed up and he is being charged with trespassing. Sounds reasonable right?

I think people are wound a little too tightly these days...

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Thing is we have only his side of the story.
Now for your analogy. The neighbours kid repeatedly kicks his ball into your yard damaging your roses. You've spoken to him but disregards your request. Finnaly it happens again........what do you do?

I would be working on trying to have the Rat charged with lying to a CO (Offence). That's your claim. The CO showed up based on something.
You must be treated fairly in the eyes of a JP and you only have to poke holes in the CO's wannabe facts.
An example, if your story is accurate, would be that blood is not the indicator of where an animal is hit geographically. Only hair will be the indicator. Hair 1st , blood 2nd. If they only have blood, then they have nothing. Any competent investigator would/should know that.
As Rick iles mentioned earlier, gather as much information as you can, even about what it's costed you to date to put that deer on the pole. Also any information related to the Rat as to why he's been a d..k as you have said, etc. If you haven't been charged yet, call your MPP, call your MP, Go over the CO's head. Demand your deer back, make a fuss. Squeaky wheel gets the grease my friend. Don't stop until you hit a sympathetic ear.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Thing is we have only his side of the story.
Now for your analogy. The neighbours kid repeatedly kicks his ball into your yard damaging your roses. You've spoken to him but disregards your request. Finnaly it happens again........what do you do?

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My analogy wasn't exactly accurate. In order to be more in line with the OP's scenario, my property would have to be a vacant lot across town, the kid would be kicking the soccer ball around at his friend's house beside this vacant lot, and the cops would have been called by a guest of a neighbour who for some reason doesn't like kids playing soccer anywhere near this vacant lot.

You're right, we only have the OP's side of the story, but assuming he's telling the truth about everything the whole scenario is absolutely ridiculous.

I wouldn't dream of making an issue over someone taking a few steps onto my property to retrieve a downed deer. Yes, I suppose if I'd previously had to warn someone a few times about property lines then I might have a problem with it, but there's nothing in the OP's story to suggest that he's had any other issues than a vindictive jealous hunter on another property.

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Originally Posted by GW11

I wouldn't dream of making an issue over someone taking a few steps onto my property to retrieve a downed deer. Yes, I suppose if I'd previously had to warn someone a few times about property lines then I might have a problem with it, but there's nothing in the OP's story to suggest that he's had any other issues than a vindictive jealous hunter on another property.

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"vindictive jealous hunter " What made him one in the eyes of the OP. Come on a person will color their story in the most favourable light to make it appear they had done nothing wrong.
Read over his account and you'll see the story is a little looped sided.
He states emphatically that he shot the deer on property he has permission to hunt on yet claims the property line on recouvery was a little unclear. Claims the property was vacant land but states it was posted along the road however not along the back.
Look not convicting the guy however won't be endorsing him until all the facts and both sides of the story come forth.

Well - just let me add this - down here any good lawyer will tell you that guilty or innocent don't talk to the cops - anything you say can be used against you and we are advised to take the 5th - most often a person gets themselves in trouble by saying things which can be turned around to make it good like you did something illegal - I don't know if you Canadians have that right or not - to remain silent - let the cops try to figure things out on their own - which often times they can't without your help -

Lately there has been a push among citizens to put the cops in their place by requiring them to respect individual rights - many people are using cameras to record contacts with the police - interesting times

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Originally Posted by JoePa

Well - just let me add this - down here any good lawyer will tell you that guilty or innocent don't talk to the cops - anything you say can be used against you and we are advised to take the 5th - most often a person gets themselves in trouble by saying things which can be turned around to make it good like you did something illegal - I don't know if you Canadians have that right or not - to remain silent - let the cops try to figure things out on their own - which often times they can't without your help -

Lately there has been a push among citizens to put the cops in their place by requiring them to respect individual rights - many people are using cameras to record contacts with the police - interesting times

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Naw up here the cops are using body cameras to record the moronic actions of people. Cops have no vested interest in pinning something on someone who has done nothing wrong. If they twist your words around its because initially you've done something. Jails are full of people who claim they have done nothing wrong. Not one though that says yup I did it. Funny how that is.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Naw up here the cops are using body cameras to record the moronic actions of people. Cops have no vested interest in pinning something on someone who has done nothing wrong. If they twist your words around its because initially you've done something. Jails are full of people who claim they have done nothing wrong. Not one though that says yup I did it. Funny how that is.

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Sure.... Just ask David Milgaard or Robert Baltovich etc.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

"vindictive jealous hunter " What made him one in the eyes of the OP. Come on a person will color their story in the most favourable light to make it appear they had done nothing wrong.
Read over his account and you'll see the story is a little looped sided.
He states emphatically that he shot the deer on property he has permission to hunt on yet claims the property line on recouvery was a little unclear. Claims the property was vacant land but states it was posted along the road however not along the back.
Look not convicting the guy however won't be endorsing him until all the facts and both sides of the story come forth.

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We'll probably never know all of the facts but I believe his story for a couple of reasons. As a bowhunter, he would know that other bowhunters would likely disapprove of taking such an iffy shot on such a small parcel of land. He could have coloured that part of the story a little more in his favour but he didn't. Nor did he have to post the story at all. I can't see too many people posting a story like that on a public forum while knowing the whole time that they are in the wrong.

Or, maybe his story just hit a nerve with me. Being harassed by a jealous hunter or group can be worse than being harassed by antis because they know exactly how to screw you over.

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Originally Posted by GW11

We'll probably never know all of the facts but I believe his story for a couple of reasons. As a bowhunter, he would know that other bowhunters would likely disapprove of taking such an iffy shot on such a small parcel of land. He could have coloured that part of the story a little more in his favour but he didn't. Nor did he have to post the story at all. I can't see too many people posting a story like that on a public forum while knowing the whole time that they are in the wrong.

Or, maybe his story just hit a nerve with me. Being harassed by a jealous hunter or group can be worse than being harassed by antis because they know exactly how to screw you over.

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The purpose was to mount a plausible defense.
you are absolutely right. In another light though he quickly justified that iffy shot by stating it was lethal. The ends justifying the means? Also I question his justification for retrieving the deer because it was vacant land. If he truly believed it was vacant land than he should have no problem hunting it. He states with absolute certainty that he shot it on land he had permission to hunt yet is ify on the boundary? That should not be an issue if he felt it was truly vacant however made a good excuse though.

The main thing that irks me is the vilification of those that may be also just enforcing their right too.

No person should be so harshly viewed for reporting a concern to the land owner.
Land Owners should not feel vilified for reporting suspected illegal acts on their property.
The MNR should not be belittled for investigating such incidents.

I took it to mean that he knew the land was owned by someone else and he didn't have permission to hunt it but that it was 'vacant" of buildings or any other type of development.

My interpretation is the same as Rugger's. The other property is owned by someone else but the OP doesn't know who it is. No buildings or anything on the property. "Vacant" in terms of dwellings or buildings but still private property.

The other hunter is hunting a third property (from what I gather) and believes the OP doesn't have permission to be on either of the first two. It doesn't sound like any of the the landowners have been involved yet at all and the MNR is acting solely on the other hunter's complaint.

That's why I find this whole scenario so outrageous. It's more than possible that the owner of the property where the deer died couldn't care less about a guy stepping over the line to retrieve a deer.

It's also possible (as fff says) that the OP isn't being truthful in his account to us but I don't see what he has to gain by posting his story here. A few stories about blood trails or lack thereof? Sounds more to me like he can't believe this has happened and is hoping a few people will tell him they've had similar experiences and everything turned out OK.

I think he'll find that with a response of that size, 3 trucks, canine unit, etc., he'll be charged with something, right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by GW11

My interpretation is the same as Rugger's. The other property is owned by someone else but the OP doesn't know who it is. No buildings or anything on the property. "Vacant" in terms of dwellings or buildings but still private property.

The other hunter is hunting a third property (from what I gather) and believes the OP doesn't have permission to be on either of the first two. It doesn't sound like any of the the landowners have been involved yet at all and the MNR is acting solely on the other hunter's complaint.

That's why I find this whole scenario so outrageous. It's more than possible that the owner of the property where the deer died couldn't care less about a guy stepping over the line to retrieve a deer.


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Originally Posted by Sparky494

... I wouldn't have said anything to him had I known he was going to run to the other property owner and rile him up. I didn't think anything of it as I had felt I had done nothing wrong. . Basically a guy ratted me out to a property owner that I didn't know, and had never met.
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For your peace of mind its the land owner that initiated the investigation.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

For your peace of mind its the land owner that initiated the investigation.

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My mistake there. When reading back I missed that post but now I remember reading it when he originally posted it. Thanks.

It still doesn't change the fact that I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Like I said in my first post in this thread, some people are just wound too tightly.

I think its a shame that someone would level charges against some hunter who shot a deer on an adjacent property and then trespasses onto posted property to retrieve the deer - what harm is done anyway - except maybe putting a shoe print on the posted land - what the keck is happening with people - so someone steps on his precious dirt for a few minutes - if I shot a deer and it ran into posted property and I can see it I would definitely go and get it - 9 out of 10 times nobody would even know what I did - if by chance the owner caught me and didn't let me get the deer and ended up charging me with trespass - he would regret it believe me -

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Originally Posted by GW11

My mistake there. When reading back I missed that post but now I remember reading it when he originally posted it. Thanks.

It still doesn't change the fact that I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Like I said in my first post in this thread, some people are just wound too tightly.

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Of course this is ridiculous. So the question remains why such drastic actions. That's why I suspect there are extenuating circumstances that the OP conveniently left out and this may be the straw that broke the camels back.

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Originally Posted by JoePa

I think its a shame that someone would level charges against some hunter who shot a deer on an adjacent property and then trespasses onto posted property to retrieve the deer - what harm is done anyway - except maybe putting a shoe print on the posted land - what the keck is happening with people - so someone steps on his precious dirt for a few minutes - if I shot a deer and it ran into posted property and I can see it I would definitely go and get it - 9 out of 10 times nobody would even know what I did - if by chance the owner caught me and didn't let me get the deer and ended up charging me with trespass - he would regret it believe me -

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So then you would be ok with a guy setting up right on YOUR property line and trespassing on to YOUR property to retrieve a deer. Many people in Ontario think is their right to trespass to retrieve downed game, but it's not.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Naw up here the cops are using body cameras to record the moronic actions of people. Cops have no vested interest in pinning something on someone who has done nothing wrong. If they twist your words around its because initially you've done something. Jails are full of people who claim they have done nothing wrong. Not one though that says yup I did it. Funny how that is.

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If you believe there are not some LEOs out there with a god complex and who view situations with a negative bias right from the get go, I have some land to sell you:)

Sure the vast majority are upstanding but don't try to paint a pretty one sided picture.

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Originally Posted by Duckguy

So then you would be ok with a guy setting up right on YOUR property line and trespassing on to YOUR property to retrieve a deer. Many people in Ontario think is their right to trespass to retrieve downed game, but it's not.

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I know it not your right to trespass to get a dead deer but it the logical thing to do - trespassing in itself causes no harm - any half decent person would let a fellow hunter retrieve his deer if it dropped over on his posted property - even without permission - some people carry this trespassing thing too far - its one thing if some trespasser is parting his butt on your property - that I wouldn't like but just walking on my property to get a dead deer - gee its nice to be nice to people - just remember a lot of guys fought and died so that you have the right to even own property -

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Originally Posted by Duckguy

So then you would be ok with a guy setting up right on YOUR property line and trespassing on to YOUR property to retrieve a deer. Many people in Ontario think is their right to trespass to retrieve downed game, but it's not.

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If a shot is made OFF my property but they have to go on my prop to get it, I'm good. They come get me or the lad first to walk through with them how it went down. Whoever goes had want to see the trail come from their prop or things could get fugly

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Originally Posted by JoePa

I know it not your right to trespass to get a dead deer but it the logical thing to do - trespassing in itself causes no harm - any half decent person would let a fellow hunter retrieve his deer if it dropped over on his posted property - even without permission - some people carry this trespassing thing too far - its one thing if some trespasser is parting his butt on your property - that I wouldn't like but just walking on my property to get a dead deer - gee its nice to be nice to people - just remember a lot of guys fought and died so that you have the right to even own property -

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Yet in your country they shoot people in the face for trespassing or even knocking on the front door late at night.

HOLY FRIG STICKS BATMAN
Does this still have legs?

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Originally Posted by skeeter1

If you believe there are not some LEOs out there with a god complex and who view situations with a negative bias right from the get go, I have some land to sell you:)

Sure the vast majority are upstanding but don't try to paint a pretty one sided picture.

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Would suspect there are far more people with God like complexes than there are LEO's otherwise there wouldn't be a need for them in the first place.

A little more homework by the OP could have prevented this situation, I can remember dozens of similar threads to this one.

A hunter is responsible to establish the property lines which could have been achieved by talking to owners and his fellow hunter.

This parcel is to small to be bow hunting on and without researching more the OP was taking a chance that did not pay off.

I cant understand why some hunters feel entitled to cross into other peoples property and expect no blow back.

Have to wonder why the OP was back on the property the day after the recovery, after all he had filled his tag.

Maybe the fellow hunter believed him to be poaching based on having been told by the OP that he had already got his deer.

This hunter then called the MNR and they did their job.

The finer details the OP has decided to omit probably would give us the real story.

So Sparky I'm curious if a charge was laid yet? Lots of opinions on here but not everyone hunts property with fencelines and property markers staring at them. :eek:
Did you get a lawyer?

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Originally Posted by DanO

So Sparky I'm curious if a charge was laid yet? Lots of opinions on here but not everyone hunts property with fencelines and property markers staring at them. :eek:
Did you get a lawyer?

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I doubt we will hear from sparky. He joined Dec 4 and only has 9 posts ( all of which are only in this thread he started) he hasn't posted since December 5.
it appeared he came looking for support and ideas of how to justify his actions

I'm surprised the mnr actually brought out a dog for this.

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Originally Posted by flippin

In my "understanding" we as ethical hunters are suppose to do everything in our power to retrieve any and all animals we shoot.
Yes I get it.. He had to trespass however without a home or anything on the property he can't go knocking.
Should he have gone and looked up landowner through the "township"?
Than call and ask if it is "ok" to drag it out?
What if guy said "No" ? Than he would have to call MNR to recover the deer for him?
I know 1-800-tips line they don't answer you back for awhile.
Therefore the deer would most likely spoil..
I personally would fight this hand downs..
MNR showed up days later with a dog to track blood, I've shot deer where 0 blood trail for at least 50-100ft away with snow down.
So to me for them to find blood days later to the exact spot which you hit the deer are nearly impossible.
And you also claim u hit it straight on I doubt the bolt even went through the deer. Until its belly chest filled up with blood. Than it could leak out the hole from bolt.
At worst I don't think you would get anything more than a "trespass" fine.
As long as you did shoot the deer on the property you had permission on.
Good Luck Fight it all the way.
Flip

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Everything in your power stops at trespassing. That is not in your power.

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Originally Posted by Mattones

I'm surprised the mnr actually brought out a dog for this.

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When they attended our camp this year they had one on board.

OH OH please let me jump in here. So I leave here a couple years back (alone) for a moose hunt (archery). All is well except as usual ole Standup has let his anxiousness get him up there WAY TO FRIN EARLY, but. When in Rome right. So I start giving the odd call two nights b4 instead of night before. Anyway the morning after I give the couple calls I go down to the creek and right in my foot prints he puts his first hoove as he steps up onto the gravel. We're like 12 feet apart. I start a very very slow shuffle backward. Hoping to put distance, trees anything tween me and him. Bows back at camp. Matters not cause still 22 hrs till season. Be dammed if he don't follow me right into frikin camp. Stands broad to the tent my bow was in at 15 yds. I owned that 4 yr old bull. Boy the decision making that went on. Anyway away he walked. That night after my food I'm sitting by the fire. Warden and OPP come in to where I'm at in same suburban. You got any guns sir? Yep a shotty for post moose. OK checks out. You hunting with bow? Yep. Got anything down? Why Sir of course not. It's not the season till tomorrow. Oh ya right you are I forgot (Ya the MNR guy forgot OK). OK Sir safe hunting and good luck accompanied by a quik step to the suburban. You're thinking that's a leaving gesture right.? No thats to get your guard relaxed cause as quik as they get to the wheels instead of each grabbing their respective doors they each grab a rear door handle so as both doors open ,out comes to hounds and they start leading them all around my camp area. Foolishly I thought of quilling that moose thinking to beat liver temp by waiting a couple hours to gut him. Ya that's great until that dogs would have come over the hill to a dead moo huh

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Originally Posted by Mattones

I'm surprised the mnr actually brought out a dog for this.

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Tinking dogs don't come out may end up biting you

So waiting on an update. Month later and no follow up. Maybe not me but out of respect for your supporters they deserve an update. Can't ask for help and leave them hanging.

What has been the outcome of this?

First time in the forum since bow season. Quickly remembered why this forum can be a total waste of time.


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Originally Posted by Earlyriser1988

First time in the forum since bow season. Quickly remembered why this forum can be a total waste of time.


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From reading your threads it looks like you've received some great information so far on everything from fly fishing, ground blinds for your girlfriend and coyote hunting. If that's all been a waste of time for you - don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

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Originally Posted by mbhunter

From reading your threads it looks like you've received some great information so far on everything from fly fishing, ground blinds for your girlfriend and coyote hunting. If that's all been a waste of time for you - don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

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Simply mean the non stop attacking on people just looking for some info. No different then the other Facebook groups, archery talk, and other forums. Everyone has to put someone down. But yes I very rarely use it. I stated I very rarely use it anymore. So no reason to say don't let the door hit me. Just shows how good of a sport you are buddy!


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[QUOTE=Earlyriser1988;955562]First time in the forum since bow season. Quickly remembered why this forum can be a total waste of time.


Its them people who post 0.03 posts per day that make it that way.Just sayin Buddy.LOL

Heard through the grapevine that a bowhunter plead guilty to an illegal deer in Parry Sound court this week. Wonder if it was this guy?

interesting.

I would like to know the outcome of this......sounds exactly like de ja vu to a very similar thing that happened to us a few years back......

I think the below news release might be the "blood Trail" thread issue. Hopefully the link works.

http://www.muskokatodaily.com/?p=23291

Yup, sure sounds like it.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

I think the below news release might be the "blood Trail" thread issue. Hopefully the link works.

http://www.muskokatodaily.com/?p=23291

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Well at least he took the high road admitted his guilt and paid the fine instead of trying to weasel out on a loop hole.

I think the witnesses and the dog's nose probably told a different version of his story :)

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Well at least he took the high road admitted his guilt and paid the fine instead of trying to weasel out on a loop hole.

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Looks like you had it right earlier in the discussion. It must the the guy, the timeline adds up (when he posted vs. date off offence) and he hasn't been logged in here since Dec 23rd.