Turtle Trapping.

I have always trapped turtles, i learnt from my family, and love it, in the past i've been a pretty heavy trapper, and love every second of it. Including the eating!

My question is this, if they are "at risk" or however they are currently classified, why don't we have a slot? most places in north america i have trapped have a 13 inch minimum?

Is it simply that no one cares so it flies under the radar? That's the feeling i get, it's a fairly neglected area, not many people talk about it, i don't even think i've ever seen an OOD article about it even though we all as licence fisherman have a right to it? or am i missing a few old issues?

my biggest is 58lbs. I make my own traps from scratch, including hand tying all of the mesh netting used for my traps.

IF i was given free roam i could, in my area, easily catch dozens in a day. obviously i can't keep that amount, the laws have become more and more regulated, with mandatory harvest reporting and such. But the idea of a 13 inch slot, which is standard most places, is not something i have ever heard discussed?
i want the population to take off, and for numbers to be confirmed so i can go back to trapping more! it's a bit of a dying subset, and i'm fine with that, more for me.

Do you trap?
personally i've only seen the numbers go up. my feeling about the "at risk" statement, is more about lack of data so they are playing it safe, rather than that they are actually at risk.

Didn't I read this post somewhere before? I'm pretty sure there was a turtle thread not that long ago.... In any case, I'm terribly ignorant about turtle trapping. Never done it, never really had the itch to do so... I wouldn't know the first place to start if I had to gut a turtle... interesting stuff all the same.

As for slot sizes, it would be interesting to know if it's not in place because of a need. There can't be that many turtle trappers out there - you say yourself it seems to be a neglected area. I'm sure others here could add thoughts. Never really thought of trapping turtles... *frantically googles 'turtle trapping'

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Originally Posted by flytyermiller

I have always trapped turtles, i learnt from my family, and love it, in the past i've been a pretty heavy trapper, and love every second of it. Including the eating!

My question is this, if they are "at risk" or however they are currently classified, why don't we have a slot? most places in north america i have trapped have a 13 inch minimum?

Is it simply that no one cares so it flies under the radar? That's the feeling i get, it's a fairly neglected area, not many people talk about it, i don't even think i've ever seen an OOD article about it even though we all as licence fisherman have a right to it? or am i missing a few old issues?

my biggest is 58lbs. I make my own traps from scratch, including hand tying all of the mesh netting used for my traps.

IF i was given free roam i could, in my area, easily catch dozens in a day. obviously i can't keep that amount, the laws have become more and more regulated, with mandatory harvest reporting and such. But the idea of a 13 inch slot, which is standard most places, is not something i have ever heard discussed?
i want the population to take off, and for numbers to be confirmed so i can go back to trapping more! it's a bit of a dying subset, and i'm fine with that, more for me.

Do you trap?
personally i've only seen the numbers go up. my feeling about the "at risk" statement, is more about lack of data so they are playing it safe, rather than that they are actually at risk.

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It's exactly what you think an assumption based on lack of real world data , if you do some reaserch the papers used for the assumption that the common snapper needs protection are available and you wil find they simply extrapolated that because they seen a decline in the two areas they sampled that the whole province is in decline , if they wanted data they should have came and talked to some of us that spend time in the field and know how to catch things , I could get them hundreds of turtles for data collection if they pay me too, as I'm sure other trappers could as well from all over Ontario and then we would have some real world data to make decisions with .

There is no shortage in are area that's for sure. I find the nest sights along old gravel roads and train tracks. We see some very big ones in the ponds I trap beaver from .I wish I had someone to show me the ropes on how to trap and clean cook turtles. I have the property. .Dutch

I litteraly see hundreds every year, starting normally the end of May, well into June depending on the weather that come up onto the golf course to lay their eggs. Normally they start after a warm rain...

This is an article from back in 2012 when the MNR announced they had to be reported....

I see there is a caution about eating them:

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Currently, an Ontarian with a provincial fishing licence can take up to two snapping turtles a day during the season.

Urquhart said it will be hard for conservation officers to prove those turtles won’t be sold as meat, and difficult for MNR to enforce mandatory reporting.
The government’s decision also ignores evidence from researchers that Ontario snapping turtles may have high levels of PCBs and be unfit to eat, he said.

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http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/25...apping-turtles

Turtle trapping is something I'd like to learn more about. In terms of the legal status, snapping turtles are classified as "special concern", which unlike threatened or endangered, does not come with automatic legal protections. If they were threatened or endangered I don't think you could harvest them at all.

I'm not really sure what the thresholds are for establishing these classifications. Perhaps special concern means they face threats, but have not yet demonstrably declined as result of those threats?

In any case, to the original question... there's a catch and possession limit, that's the tool MNR is using to manage harvest numbers. Not sure why a minimum size is objectively a more effective tool? Unless I'm missing some biological quirk about turtle size, like with softshell crabs where above a certain size they stop reproducing?

Here's another question: it's not clear to me from the regs summary, but if you catch a snapping turtle in a trap, are you allowed to release it and not count it towards your limit? Because if not, or if they don't like to encourage that, that would explain why there's no minimum size -- they expect you to keep the 2 you catch, regardless of size.

Now I could be wrong but I thought PCBs were generally associated with industrial pollution, so they'd tend to only be an issue on waterways with urban development, unlike heavy metals. If that's the case then turtles in more "pristine" areas would be free of PCBs, and the argument about them was just an excuse from someone petitioning to ban turtle trapping. On the other hand, snappers are fish-eating predators that can live a LONG time, so it's understandable that contaminants would bioaccumulate in the older ones, whether PCBs or something else. (Maybe that's an argument against a minimum size?)

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Originally Posted by tweedwolfscream

Turtle trapping is something I'd like to learn more about. In terms of the legal status, snapping turtles are classified as "special concern", which unlike threatened or endangered, does not come with automatic legal protections. If they were threatened or endangered I don't think you could harvest them at all.

I'm not really sure what the thresholds are for establishing these classifications. Perhaps special concern means they face threats, but have not yet demonstrably declined as result of those threats?

In any case, to the original question... there's a catch and possession limit, that's the tool MNR is using to manage harvest numbers. Not sure why a minimum size is objectively a more effective tool? Unless I'm missing some biological quirk about turtle size, like with softshell crabs where above a certain size they stop reproducing?

Here's another question: it's not clear to me from the regs summary, but if you catch a snapping turtle in a trap, are you allowed to release it and not count it towards your limit? Because if not, or if they don't like to encourage that, that would explain why there's no minimum size -- they expect you to keep the 2 you catch, regardless of size.

Now I could be wrong but I thought PCBs were generally associated with industrial pollution, so they'd tend to only be an issue on waterways with urban development, unlike heavy metals. If that's the case then turtles in more "pristine" areas would be free of PCBs, and the argument about them was just an excuse from someone petitioning to ban turtle trapping. On the other hand, snappers are fish-eating predators that can live a LONG time, so it's understandable that contaminants would bioaccumulate in the older ones, whether PCBs or something else. (Maybe that's an argument against a minimum size?)

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I don't think i said "more effective" if i did i was misrepresenting how i felt, i thought that adding it for a period of time to recover population densities might help get us to a place where the limits could be raised.
That's likely a more clear statement of intent than anything i wrote in my original post.

I hadn't considered the toxin buildup, except to say that i doubt it's any less a problem across the states where 13inch is a fairly well practiced norm. Not that i'm saying "if the states does it, it must be right" haha it's just where my mind took it's leaps of logic, it seemed fairly simple to me, species population a concern? stop killing babies... Suppose i'm sort of have a moose calf hunt debate with myself in that regard, but simply applying it to turtles.

And thank you for the clarification "special concern". i should have looked it up before posting.

I admit that I don't know anything about turtles or turtle-trapping . --- My question is : Why bother? --- Am I missing something by not eating them ? --- I always saw them as a "SANITATION-CREW" ; cleaning up our waters . To the best of my knowledge , they are one of the few carrion-feeders around . --- I'm not judging people who "harvest" them , I just wonder .

I take a couple every year, taste great, but can be chewy if not slow cooked.

My youngest son (14 when this photo was snapped) likes to dive for them. Makes it a little more challenging. Occasionally he gets scratched up but usually he comes out on top:

http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/...pskmsvergv.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gunner 38

I admit that I don't know anything about turtles or turtle-trapping . --- My question is : Why bother? --- Am I missing something by not eating them ? --- I always saw them as a "SANITATION-CREW" ; cleaning up our waters . To the best of my knowledge , they are one of the few carrion-feeders around . --- I'm not judging people who "harvest" them , I just wonder .

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I think that's mostly just in your head, i don't mean that rudely (please don't take it as such), but so are bears right? they eat anything and everything in the bush, we have no idea what rotting corpses or garbage they've been dining on before we shoot them and eat them? Same with all fishes we consume, if you're eating a big pike, there is no telling what nastiness it's been consuming, that fish may have survived on rotting fish and dead floating ducklings for the last year, or there may be a dead moose floating around bloated that it's been eating shreds of. there's no harm, but i do get that some things can just sorta "gross people out" for lack of a more appropriate term. All omnivorous/carnivorous animals will feed on carrion, for you it might be turtles. Me, i hate dill, and i don't like peanut butter.
We like to think that our wild game is entirely animals that survive on wild, fresh, organic everything, but the truth is, they don't.
I once saw a bear run from me between Timmins and Foleyet that had half a black garbage bag hanging out it's butthole, and i bet he was someones tablefare the next fall...
not sure why i went on such a rant. my point was just that turtles are the same as other animals we eat, we don't have a clue what their diet is, and it mostly doesn't matter.
this stuff all becomes more and more true in the south of our province, fishes in the great lakes, or major rivers of the south are likely constantly eating garbage and living in dirty waters. and our animals down here are constantly eating garbage or greens filled with chemicals.

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Originally Posted by flytyermiller

I think that's mostly just in your head, i don't mean that rudely (please don't take it as such), but so are bears right? they eat anything and everything in the bush, we have no idea what rotting corpses or garbage they've been dining on before we shoot them and eat them? Same with all fishes we consume, if you're eating a big pike, there is no telling what nastiness it's been consuming, that fish may have survived on rotting fish and dead floating ducklings for the last year, or there may be a dead moose floating around bloated that it's been eating shreds of. there's no harm, but i do get that some things can just sorta "gross people out" for lack of a more appropriate term. All omnivorous/carnivorous animals will feed on carrion, for you it might be turtles. Me, i hate dill, and i don't like peanut butter.
We like to think that our wild game is entirely animals that survive on wild, fresh, organic everything, but the truth is, they don't.
I once saw a bear run from me between Timmins and Foleyet that had half a black garbage bag hanging out it's butthole, and i bet he was someones tablefare the next fall...
not sure why i went on such a rant. my point was just that turtles are the same as other animals we eat, we don't have a clue what their diet is, and it mostly doesn't matter.
this stuff all becomes more and more true in the south of our province, fishes in the great lakes, or major rivers of the south are likely constantly eating garbage and living in dirty waters. and our animals down here are constantly eating garbage or greens filled with chemicals.

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Actually, turtles don't eat rotten meat. In my early years, I trapped turtles with an uncle. If you didn't change the bait every day, you didn't get any turtles. We used fish guts. Bass cleanings were the best. We made our traps out of 2x2 corn crib wire, with a funnel at one end. We were able to have 25 or 30 traps in the boat, once they were collapsed. In those days , there was no regulations with respect to selling the meat or numbers taken. We trapped a pile of turtles over the years. There was a group of guys from the States that came up every summer to catch them. They used a huge hook and nylon line. They would have them tied up under their campers until they loaded them up for the trip south. I never did agree with using hooks. I'm glad to see that isn't permitted now.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Actually, turtles don't eat rotten meat. In my early years, I trapped turtles with an uncle. If you didn't change the bait every day, you didn't get any turtles. We used fish guts. Bass cleanings were the best. We made our traps out of 2x2 corn crib wire, with a funnel at one end. We were able to have 25 or 30 traps in the boat, once they were collapsed. In those days , there was no regulations with respect to selling the meat or numbers taken. We trapped a pile of turtles over the years. There was a group of guys from the States that came up every summer to catch them. They used a huge hook and nylon line. They would have them tied up under their campers until they loaded them up for the trip south. I never did agree with using hooks. I'm glad to see that isn't permitted now.

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Good info. I use carp, gives me an excuse to catch some or bow hunt them, they are still fun to catch, especially in a strong river. freeze them chopped to bait size, heads etc are all good.

We got a few of the hoop traps made from heavy mesh, but the turtles tore them to shred, or tangled them up so bad we couldn't salvage them. The box traps solved those issues. It was common to get 6 or 8 big turtles in one trap. We saved a lot of ducklings and goslings !!

Turtles are in serious decline world wide. From harvesting for food to habitat loss to collection for the pet trade there aren't any positives right now.

Give it enough time and the snapper will follow suit. Their populations can't sustain constant harvest. They mature late, about 20 years of age, and few offspring survive.

It's only a matter of time before harvest is banned.

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Originally Posted by rfb

Turtles are in serious decline world wide. From harvesting for food to habitat loss to collection for the pet trade there aren't any positives right now.

Give it enough time and the snapper will follow suit. Their populations can't sustain constant harvest. They mature late, about 20 years of age, and few offspring survive.

It's only a matter of time before harvest is banned.

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I would agree....possums, coons and skunks are a primary cause for their decline !

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I would agree....possums, coons and skunks are a primary cause for their decline !

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Not true at all. Habitat loss, food consumption, highway mortality are the main reasons

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Originally Posted by rfb

Not true at all. Habitat loss, food consumption, highway mortality are the main reasons

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Where is your proof that the snapping turtle in Ontario is in this position?

I have seen more habitat construction in the last 20 yrs that has to help the population. The marshes around here are full of snappers. I have seen 1 killed on a local Rd two yrs ago and that was a first for me. I have saved many over the yrs by moving down a side Rd ditch away from the pavement. My ponds here have quite a few of different sizes. Every spring / summer they nest on an island in the back and have fairly good success. I would say that birds, raccoons and possums are the main threat here and probably in southern Ontario

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Originally Posted by rfb

Not true at all. Habitat loss, food consumption, highway mortality are the main reasons

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All one needs to do is walk along turtle laying habitat. Not too many nests have not been dug up and eggs eaten.

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Originally Posted by trappermatt

Where is your proof that the snapping turtle in Ontario is in this position?

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"Proof" is complicated but here's the Ontario government's official story:

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What threatens it
It takes 15 to 20 years for a Snapping turtle to reach maturity. As a result, adult mortality greatly affects the species’ survival. During the summer, many turtles cross roads in search of mates, food and nest sites. This is risky for turtles as they are too slow to get out of the way of moving vehicles. Snapping turtles are also sometimes intentionally persecuted. Eggs in nests around urban and agricultural areas are subject to predators such as raccoons and striped skunks.

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Now to compare that to the blurb about a threatened turtle...

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What threatens it
The most significant threat to Canadian populations of Spiny softshell is habitat degradation, particularly due to riverbank stabilization, development along shorelines, changes in water levels, dams and recreation. Nest mortality can be very high due to human recreational activities at nest sites and nest predation by raccoons and foxes. Development and recreation may also be blocking access to nesting, hibernation, feeding and basking sites. This turtle suffers high mortality due to collisions with motorboats, trapping and incidental mortality from fisheries.

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...and an endangered turtle...

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What threatens it
Ontario’s Wood Turtles are at risk from habitat loss and degradation; predation by raccoons, skunks, foxes and pets; human activity such as illegal collection for personal pets or for the pet trade; and road mortality.
This turtle’s slow growth, late maturity and low reproductive success rate increases its vulnerability to all of these threats.

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...and there seem to be some running themes, and you're all somewhat right. Thing is, factors like skunks, foxes and slow maturity have always been around, so you gotta think the habitat and road issues are the trigger for their degraded status, even if those other things are making it harder to withstand them.

There is no proof, even the government has no idea, that's why they listed it as "at risk." it's a safety precaution because they have no means, or want to look into it.
in their own words, they have no clue how many there are, and even say it flat out.

http://www.registrelep-sararegistry....e.cfm?sid=1033

"The number of adults in Canada is not known..."

Here's the only scientific research quote they use
"long-term studies of two populations in Ontario have demonstrated that even large and apparently secure populations are vulnerable to even slight increases in adult mortality and do not recover quickly from declines."

nothing says they ARE in decline at all, just that they are vulnerable to it.

"The Snapping Turtle remains relatively abundant in eastern Canada"
And most importantly
"Reliable population size estimates of Snapping Turtles are extremely difficult to obtain. The number of adults in Canada is not known"

AKA they have no idea, so they're protecting it as a precaution because we know nothing, and have no data either way.

This is what I love about my fellow fishermen and hunters. Try and tell them a resource is headed for trouble and the only thing they can think about is that it impacts their ability to harvest.

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Originally Posted by rfb

This is what I love about my fellow fishermen and hunters. Try and tell them a resource is headed for trouble and the only thing they can think about is that it impacts their ability to harvest.

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Wow! I never read anywhere that all we can think about is the impact on us to harvest. As stated there has been tons and tons of habitat construction that helps not only the snappers but all wildlife. Us hunters and fishermen put more into habitat than any tree hugger could dream of. If your going to try and tell us something like you stated then prove it. The government has no solid proof, just like the deer herd numbers and the moose population. If you have some solid hard proof then let's hear it. If not then don't bad mouth your fellow fishermen and hunters

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Originally Posted by flytyermiller

Here's the only scientific research quote they use
"long-term studies of two populations in Ontario have demonstrated that even large and apparently secure populations are vulnerable to even slight increases in adult mortality and do not recover quickly from declines."

nothing says they ARE in decline at all, just that they are vulnerable to it.

"The Snapping Turtle remains relatively abundant in eastern Canada"
And most importantly
"Reliable population size estimates of Snapping Turtles are extremely difficult to obtain. The number of adults in Canada is not known"

AKA they have no idea, so they're protecting it as a precaution because we know nothing, and have no data either way.

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exactly !

As long as it is legal.... If we trust the MNRF for all other harvest restrictions , why not turtles?

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Originally Posted by rfb

This is what I love about my fellow fishermen and hunters. Try and tell them a resource is headed for trouble and the only thing they can think about is that it impacts their ability to harvest.

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Really , please provide the proof , I love it when people want to restrict harvest opportunities with no solid evidence , I asked you in a previous post where your proof was in regards to the snapping turtle populations of Ontario , I will ask again ? Instead of taking broad brush shots at other sportsman, some me the proof

Tons and tons of habitat restoration. You'll have to point that out to me. We're losing wetlands at an alarming rate.

As far as studies Google some. Not just for snappers but for all chelonians. One US forestry service study found that northern populations of snapping turtles can't sustain any harvest. It's too hard to recruit adult breeding members. Studies of turtles in Algonquin have said the same thing.

They haven't given them threatened status on a whim. Worldwide turtles and tortoises are headed into the crapper. They just can't survive the combination of loss of habitat and harvest.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

As long as it is legal.... If we trust the MNRF for all other harvest restrictions , why not turtles?

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Do you trust all the MNRF positions on the management of this provinces wildlife when we know they are extremely underfunded?

I have to trust them, as I have no other authority that makes the harvest laws. I follow the law , if it changes, so will I.

[QUOTE=rfb;957020]Tons and tons of habitat restoration. You'll have to point that out to me. We're losing wetlands at an alarming rate.

Rural Lambton Stewardship Network are the local group that restores and creates wet lands here in Lambton county. On my 60 acres they created 4 surface acres of wetlands. Neighbors on 3 sides of me have created many more acres. That's just in the 2 adjoining concessions. They are responsible for many many areas through out Lambton county creating hundreds of acres of new wetlands and wildlife habitat. My area is 6yrs old and the turtles have moved in and living the dream. I see all different sizes and species from snapper, painted and even seen a blandings. Where I use to live close to the shores of lake St. Clair. The marshes were full of snappers. The farmers dykes were covered in turtles during egg laying season. Those marshes were restored by the Canadian Wildlife Services. I am not sure who does this type of work in other areas but I am quite sure it's not being done just around me. So there is my proof

Drop in the bucket compared to what we are losing.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

I have to trust them, as I have no other authority that makes the harvest laws. I follow the law , if it changes, so will I.

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Following the law does not require trust it only requires obedience. Trust may be a reason one obeys but it is not required as there are others that are just as valid. Many things can motivate obedience a good example is fear. Many people may fear the law/authority and obey even though they have no trust/belief in it.

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Originally Posted by rfb

Drop in the bucket compared to what we are losing.

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Were are we loosing? Maybe in yrs past but with today's laws and restrictions I don't see this happening

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Following the law does not require trust it only requires obedience. Trust may be a reason one obeys but it is not required as there are others that are just as valid. Many things can motivate obedience a good example is fear. Many people may fear the law/authority and obey even though they have no trust for it.

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The trust is in their rational in setting harvesting levels. I just want to eat a couple of snapping turtles a year, and as long as it is legal, I will. Considering I could take 2 a day for 2 months , taking just 2 in a season seems reasonable.

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Originally Posted by rfb

Not true at all. Habitat loss, food consumption, highway mortality are the main reasons

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many reports of 100% nest loss to predators and you think they aren't a factor to the population as a whole , heck if any other animal was suffering from predation loses at these rate people would be screaming for action , and I don't have to just read about it to see it , I could show you first hand in many different spots just as I could show you the numbers of them that get run over on the road in the spring , I hate to see that and stop regularly to move them off the road but during the spring gravel shoulders and roads are very attractive to female turtles nesting and unfortunately they get run over. I like all animals I'm not a predator hater and I sure don't want to kill everything in sight but I won't be misled into supporting restrictions on sportsmen without good reason

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

The trust is in their rational in setting harvesting levels. I just want to eat a couple of snapping turtles a year, as long as it is legal, I will.

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No problem with you taking whatever you want as long as it is legal. Trusting their rational on the other hand would be naive as they are on record as saying they have no idea what the population is.

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Originally Posted by trappermatt

many reports of 100% nest loss to predators and you think they aren't a factor to the population as a whole , heck if any other animal was suffering from predation loses at these rate people would be screaming for action , and I don't have to just read about it to see it , I could show you first hand in many different spots just as I could show you the numbers of them that get run over on the road in the spring , I hate to see that and stop regularly to move them off the road but during the spring gravel shoulders and roads are very attractive to female turtles nesting and unfortunately they get run over. I like all animals I'm not a predator hater and I sure don't want to kill everything in sight but I won't be misled into supporting restrictions on sportsmen without good reason

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They're designed as a species to be able to withstand predation on the young and eggs. What they can't deal with is loss of breeding size animals. Hence the fact that losses on highways, habitat loss and harvest for food pacts them negatively.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

No problem with you taking whatever you want as long as it is legal. Trusting their rational on the other hand would be naive as they are on record as saying they have no idea what the population is.

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Then it is no different, than trusting those that say these turtles are threatened, because nobody knows how many of them their are. If I wanted to eat fast and give some away , legally I could harvest 120 snapping turtles a season. I will err on the side of caution and take my 2.

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Originally Posted by gooseman

Were are we loosing? Maybe in yrs past but with today's laws and restrictions I don't see this happening

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Well in ottawa we've been fighting for the past few years to halt a housing development going in over Blanding habitat. The only reason there's any small hope is that the species is designated as threatened.

Developers still chew up wetland habitat and nesting females really aren't designed to cope with roads.

Check out the Atlantic Salmon thread for more evidence of what we're losing as far as natural habitat.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Then it is no different, than trusting those that say these turtles are threatened, because nobody knows how many of them their are.

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Exactly. Lots of arbitrary regs/laws on the books that we are required to obey but that may or may not be based on reality. I don't trust any of them either (the arbitrary ones) but out of necessity I do my best to obey them.

Good example would the requirement for steel shot for doves.

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Originally Posted by flytyermiller

I have always trapped turtles, i learnt from my family, and love it, in the past i've been a pretty heavy trapper, and love every second of it. Including the eating!

My question is this, if they are "at risk" or however they are currently classified, why don't we have a slot? most places in north america i have trapped have a 13 inch minimum?

Is it simply that no one cares so it flies under the radar? That's the feeling i get, it's a fairly neglected area, not many people talk about it, i don't even think i've ever seen an OOD article about it even though we all as licence fisherman have a right to it? or am i missing a few old issues?

my biggest is 58lbs. I make my own traps from scratch, including hand tying all of the mesh netting used for my traps.

IF i was given free roam i could, in my area, easily catch dozens in a day. obviously i can't keep that amount, the laws have become more and more regulated, with mandatory harvest reporting and such. But the idea of a 13 inch slot, which is standard most places, is not something i have ever heard discussed?
i want the population to take off, and for numbers to be confirmed so i can go back to trapping more! it's a bit of a dying subset, and i'm fine with that, more for me.

Do you trap?
personally i've only seen the numbers go up. my feeling about the "at risk" statement, is more about lack of data so they are playing it safe, rather than that they are actually at risk.

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Trapping turtles sounds like a cool idea is it hard

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Originally Posted by rfb

This is what I love about my fellow fishermen and hunters. Try and tell them a resource is headed for trouble and the only thing they can think about is that it impacts their ability to harvest.

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nothing the government said states that they are headed for trouble. they state that they don't know if they're heading for trouble, so they're being cautious. it might sound semantic, but there is a big difference between the two.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Then it is no different, than trusting those that say these turtles are threatened, because nobody knows how many of them their are. If I wanted to eat fast and give some away , legally I could harvest 120 snapping turtles a season. I will err on the side of caution and take my 2.

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Please explain this!!!!!

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

All one needs to do is walk along turtle laying habitat. Not too many nests have not been dug up and eggs eaten.

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If they are still intact, then you have no idea that they are still there, or not. eggs that the scavengers have FOUND that we see.

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Originally Posted by gooseman

Were are we loosing? Maybe in yrs past but with today's laws and restrictions I don't see this happening

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I grew up in NE Scarbourough in the 50/60's. Fields for miles. When I google the area I can find where our house was because of hydro corridors and RR lines but the ponds and swamps are gone. Might still be deer, coons and rabbits but the pheasants and snappers are gone....

In our part of the province the MNR is doing quite a bit of research. The local Field Naturalist Club helps take records of nests and hatches. There are places where turtles are "guided" into traps over a time period to record movement prior to nesting. ( some females travel miles to find the " right" sandbank) and the MNR actually has decoy turtles that they put along highway 62 during nesting season so they can charge people who deliberately hit them.
This applies to Blandings, painted and snappers as well.

Is it not better that we err on the side of caution and control harvest even if we (MNRF) don't have the data yet? Other wise we may wait too late to do anything about the problem (assuming one exists). We'd be pretty quick to condemn MNRF if they did that.

the MNR actually has decoy turtles that they put along highway 62 during nesting season so they can charge people who deliberately hit them.
This applies to Blandings, painted and snappers as well.[/QUOTE]

I seen a news story about using decoys down in the Windsor area. They actually had people swerve to hit it. Not sure what the charge was or if it stuck but kudos to them for bringing this in the publics eye.

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/snappers.htm
This one article is a pretty good overview of turtle biology, life history, current conservation concerns, etc. It refers to most of the US research papers. It's always been a no-brainer for me, that the current Canadian harvest regs are totally unsustainable (eg. an animal that takes up to 35-40 years to achieve sexual maturity for northern Ontario populations, sometimes only breeding every third year, annual juvenile recruitment back into the population of less than 2%, etc., etc.). I'd have a difficult time personally justifying a turtle stew dinner , knowing that the animal I just killed was probably older than me (I'm 50). Legal harvest is the least of our concerns. I doubt the average Ontarian realizes just how established the black market/poaching industry is in the province. There are poaching lines running all over southern Ontario. I find at least a couple lines every summer (Kawartha Lakes)when I'm trapping or fishing, and it gets reported to MNR enforcement. I've found numerous lines where you'll find 75-100 baited trot lines over a 4-5km run of a river, or a section of open marsh. I wonder what the poacher gets for these when they get sold in Toronto.

I suspect it is a pretty lucrative market.

[QUOTE=gooseman;957028]

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Originally Posted by rfb

Tons and tons of habitat restoration. You'll have to point that out to me. We're losing wetlands at an alarming rate.

Rural Lambton Stewardship Network are the local group that restores and creates wet lands here in Lambton county. On my 60 acres they created 4 surface acres of wetlands. Neighbors on 3 sides of me have created many more acres. That's just in the 2 adjoining concessions. They are responsible for many many areas through out Lambton county creating hundreds of acres of new wetlands and wildlife habitat. My area is 6yrs old and the turtles have moved in and living the dream. I see all different sizes and species from snapper, painted and even seen a blandings. Where I use to live close to the shores of lake St. Clair. The marshes were full of snappers. The farmers dykes were covered in turtles during egg laying season. Those marshes were restored by the Canadian Wildlife Services. I am not sure who does this type of work in other areas but I am quite sure it's not being done just around me. So there is my proof

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Good for you for being part of the solution. How lucky to have 60 acres.

An animal that takes 50 years to replace itself in the population is not a suitable game animal. I'm an avid hunter, but only when it's sustainable. There are plenty of other game out there too hunt! I'm not against hunting! There are plenty of animals out there I would love to hunt but agree we shouldn't...

I personally do not think turtle trapping is sustainable and there is loads of research out there saying this. If you think otherwise then you are not looking at the right sources or understand science. And if you don't believe for some reason there is enough evidence, then doesn't it make sense to restrict harvest until we know for sure? So we don't get ourself into a bad situation.

Ps. Road mortality is another huge part of their decline. And I also agree with most of you that hunter harvest is not the most major concern, which I understand is frustrating because we always seem to get hit the hardest... But we have to do our part. Best case scenario is tackle the black market... Habitat loss kills more than any hunter could.

I am always disappointed in hunters that are so obsessed with just defending their rights... They just automatically want to harvest whatever whenever or fight against any action taken to conserve species. How about we try and be a part of the solution, hunters are super knowledgable about what's out, lets contribute in a constructive way this way we can help possibly raise harvest quotas! Or maybe learn we shouldn't harvest something...

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Originally Posted by maskedburito

An animal that takes 50 years to replace itself in the population is not a suitable game animal. I'm an avid hunter, but only when it's sustainable. There are plenty of other game out there too hunt! I'm not against hunting! There are plenty of animals out there I would love to hunt but agree we shouldn't...

I personally do not think turtle trapping is sustainable and there is loads of research out there saying this. If you think otherwise then you are not looking at the right sources or understand science. And if you don't believe for some reason there is enough evidence, then doesn't it make sense to restrict harvest until we know for sure? So we don't get ourself into a bad situation.

Ps. Road mortality is another huge part of their decline. And I also agree with most of you that hunter harvest is not the most major concern, which I understand is frustrating because we always seem to get hit the hardest... But we have to do our part. Best case scenario is tackle the black market... Habitat loss kills more than any hunter could.

I am always disappointed in hunters that are so obsessed with just defending their rights... They just automatically want to harvest whatever whenever or fight against any action taken to conserve species. How about we try and be a part of the solution, hunters are super knowledgable about what's out, lets contribute in a constructive way this way we can help possibly raise harvest quotas! Or maybe learn we shouldn't harvest something...

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I don't even know where to start with this statement...
Let's start with the age issue... Why would an animals age (age at sexual maturity and total lifespan etc...) make any difference in making it a sustainable game species?
That's what slot sizes, sex limits, catch limits, open-seasons and age limits are in place for... Surely you are not suggesting that there is NO formula where turtle trapping could ever be sustainable, even if the species population and health was steady/healthy or even growing?

next we can tackle your 'takes 50 years to replace itself' statement. keeping in mind their lifecycle and reproductive lifetime potential is on par with many other game species.

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Originally Posted by flytyermiller

I don't even know where to start with this statement...
Let's start with the age issue... Why would an animals age (age at sexual maturity and total lifespan etc...) make any difference in making it a sustainable game species?
That's what slot sizes, sex limits, catch limits, open-seasons and age limits are in place for... Surely you are not suggesting that there is NO formula where turtle trapping could ever be sustainable, even if the species population and health was steady/healthy or even growing?

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Are you kidding me? An turtle that takes 50 years to replace itself in the population vs a deer that replaces itself in several years? That to me means major differences in harvesting.

I'm honestly shocked that you think that sexual maturity and lifespan don't effect harvest... Basic ecology/biology

You are right there may be some formula to turtle harvest but given the current ecological situation I doubt there is a very sustainable situation. Considering turtle populations are declining without harvest...

And for the record, i'm not "just defending my rights" i would gladly take some time off if i found out numbers were down in my area. but the truth is geography plays a big role. Where i trap turtles, my family has been trapping for almost 60 years (literally the traps go in the same spots every year) and we have only seen an increase in size, health and numbers. we believe this to be for two reasons, rising water temps, and lack of turtle trappers. so if our numbers are appreciably rising, how could our trapping not be sustainable here? granted, you have to take my word for it that the numbers seem to be rising here. Which is not to say, that this is the norm, simply our observations.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

Is it not better that we err on the side of caution and control harvest even if we (MNRF) don't have the data yet? Other wise we may wait too late to do anything about the problem (assuming one exists). We'd be pretty quick to condemn MNRF if they did that.

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Exactly! Someone with common sense! If we don't start acting this way, we will see a poor future for hunting in Canada.

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Originally Posted by maskedburito

Are you kidding me? An turtle that takes 50 years to replace itself in the population vs a deer that replaces itself in several years? That to me means major differences in harvesting.

I'm honestly shocked that you think that sexual maturity and lifespan don't effect harvest... Basic ecology/biology

You are right there may be some formula to turtle harvest but given the current ecological situation I doubt there is a very sustainable situation. Considering turtle populations are declining without harvest...

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there is no research in ontario to suggest that numbers are dropping... and YES it affects HOW we harvest, but it doesn't mean we CANT

I agree that it is better to err on the side of caution. if you had simply said that, i would have agreed, instead you decided that there is no way to have a sustainable harvest because of their lifespan. which isn't true, their lifespan only requires an altered practice, not the abolition of it altogether necessarily.

Let's take another example... Moose numbers are down, would you suggest we abolish the hunt? or alter the way it's practice to try and find a healthy medium and sustainable outcome? of course you try and alter things first, you don't jump to "unsustainable" without trying anything else, or gathering proper data.

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Originally Posted by flytyermiller

And for the record, i'm not "just defending my rights" i would gladly take some time off if i found out numbers were down in my area. but the truth is geography plays a big role. Where i trap turtles, my family has been trapping for almost 60 years (literally the traps go in the same spots every year) and we have only seen an increase in size, health and numbers. we believe this to be for two reasons, rising water temps, and lack of turtle trappers. so if our numbers are appreciably rising, how could our trapping not be sustainable here? granted, you have to take my word for it that the numbers seem to be rising here. Which is not to say, that this is the norm, simply our observations.

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I appreciate that, there are groups of hunters who would continue to hunt until the animal is gone. I'm not saying it's impossible for turtle harvest but the science in Ontario shows turtles are at a major decline and are not doing well...

Maybe your lake is doing well, but if you are the only one doing it, maybe it's sustainable. But there is no way turtle harvest can be thought of in the same way as mammal harvest. Each species background biology must be considered.

There are people on this forum who have made comments that lead me to believe they have no understanding of how life span, sexual maturity and biology can play a role in their harvest. Please this is very important and we must all do our part to understand it so hunters have a good image and preserve hunting for future generations.

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Originally Posted by flytyermiller

Let's take another example... Moose numbers are down, would you suggest we abolish the hunt? or alter the way it's practice to try and find a healthy medium and sustainable outcome? of course you try and alter things first, you don't jump to "unsustainable" without trying anything else, or gathering proper data.

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I agree with this and the previous comment. Given the current situation because of habitat loss, poaching and road mortality I don't believe turtle harvest should be occurring.

But I agree we shouldn't immediately stop harvest of animals, altering the practice makes sense! But it's too late for turtles....

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Originally Posted by flytyermiller

there is no research in ontario to suggest that numbers are dropping... and YES it affects HOW we harvest, but it doesn't mean we CANT

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Are you freakin kidding me.... I will find the research and throw it on here because there is overwhelming research in this province on turtle populations declining.....

I agree with the how and can stuff but seriously... Have you not read a thing on turtles...

I do not have time for this rant. Because people here obviously don't read science. Here is a simple article. Even a 1% drop in turtle populations can threaten its population existence.

http://www.ecoissues.ca/Snapping_Tur..._or_Protect%3F

Why should we limit our harvest of turtles in Ontario when in the USA they harvest at will? Many times on this site I have heard,.. 'why should we limit our production of pollution when China pollutes at will'......... Why is it sometimes what other countries are doing or not doing affects us, and other times it does not matter what other countries are doing....$$$$$$