Toronto Dog Bite Statistics

Interesting statistics, especially the reduced numbers of bites once the ban on Pit Bulls was originally implemented.

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The law certainly succeeded in cutting bites by the four affected breeds — Toronto recorded only 19 in 2014, down from 112 in 2005.


It’s not surprising, since there are far fewer of them around to bite anyone — there were only 338 registered in Toronto in 2014, down from 1,411 in 2005. Also, since the dogs were supposed to be unable to breed starting in 2005, the remaining ones are becoming elderly. Gradually, they are dying off without being replaced. They should cease to exist in the city by 2020 or so, at least in theory.

http://shawglobalnews.files.wordpres...=all&strip=all

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from:

http://globalnews.ca/news/2527882/torontos-pit-bulls-are-almost-gone-so-why-are-there-more-dog-bites-than-ever/?utm_source=Article&utm_medium=EditorsPick&utm_cam paign=2015

Looks like we should ban German Shepherds.
That is some informative reporting in that article !!


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Would be good to also know the gravity of the bites per breed.

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Originally Posted by seabast

Would be good to also know the gravity of the bites per breed.

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Bingo..the reason the Pit Bulls were signaled out.

i also noticed a new breed on the list
the american bulldog
let me venture to say that this is a replacement for the pitbull by
the unscrupulous type the same people that used to own the pits that bit
its the owners not the dogs
and as the article stated dog bites are rising

The problem as I see it is the term Pitbull and what that means for identification.The majority of people out there could not tell the difference between a pitbull and a can of corn.The breed Pitbull does not exist,it only describes a function the dog was breed for.

I like to re post this quiz many may have not seen before.

http://www.pickthepit.com/


In Toronto in 2004 there were 36,000 dogs.In Toronto in 2015 there were 230,000 dogs.

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Originally Posted by stragglelake

Looks like we should ban German Shepherds.
That is some informative reporting in that article !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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And yet "pitbulls" still exist in abundance, and are easy to get in Ontario. Yep, very informative..LOL

They must be breeding a new and improved type of "pitbull" that doesn't bite.

Canine Behaviorists have proven many times that dog aggression is NOT breed spcific.
This is a fact - studied and published by experts.

It's not a fact, and canine behaviorists have not proven it. Rather, canine ideologues have selectively quoted the research to promote their predetermined position. That some of those ideologues are behaviorists doesn't fix the problems with their argument.

The largest database of canine behavior -- C-BARQ -- has demonstrated that aggression is breed-specific. You are most likely to find aggression in small breeds and in herding breeds.

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Originally Posted by Roper

Canine Behaviorists have proven many times that dog aggression is NOT breed spcific.
This is a fact - studied and published by experts.

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So how do you explain that Jack and G.S. are in the top 3 in 2004 and 2014, and I assume there are in the top 3 pretty much every years?

I grew up with few G.S. and I own one today and hunted with many Jacks, from my little experience there are friendlier breeds out there......

That's right, beware of my biting Bichon!
I dare you to try and steal my ATV....lol


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r.../100_42621.jpg

That Bichon isn't wearing a helmet. I'm telling !

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Originally Posted by terrym

That Bichon isn't wearing a helmet. I'm telling !

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He's waiting to rip the helmet off anyone who dares sit in front of him....lol

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Originally Posted by impact

He's waiting to rip the helmet off anyone who dares sit in front of him....lol

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Goddmaned Bichons. You should muzzle that killer.
He actually reminds me of a poodle we had when I was a kid. That thing would ride all day on the front part of a snowmobile seat. Little bugger would be exhausted at the end of the day but loved to snowmobile.

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Originally Posted by seabast

So how do you explain that Jack and G.S. are in the top 3 in 2004 and 2014, and I assume there are in the top 3 pretty much every years?

I grew up with few G.S. and I own one today and hunted with many Jacks, from my little experience there are friendlier breeds out there......

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I've had 4 JRTs . Not surprised they are near the top of the list. Not a dog for everyone and NOt a first time dog.

Same goes for dogs as it goes for guns they will always find problems until there's no more dogs I have a rottweiler a day bull mastiff and 1 year old son I trust these dogs to the fullest

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Studies regarding dog aggression being NOT breed specific comes from reliable sources. I read it as quoted by a high level Humane Society official. Cesar Milan (Dog Wisperer) had said it many times. Before you dispute the fact - do some research.

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Originally Posted by Roper

Studies regarding dog aggression being NOT breed specific comes from reliable sources. I read it as quoted by a high level Humane Society official. Cesar Milan (Dog Wisperer) had said it many times. Before you dispute the fact - do some research.

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First off, Cesar Milan is not a reliable source: he has no professional qualifications and relies on ideas about canine psychology that are 20 years out of date. As for the Humane Society, their statements on aggression in dogs are driven by ideology, not science.

I referred to the C-BARQ. This is the largest database of dog behavior yet created, maintained by Dr. James Serpell at the Univ. of Pennsylvania school of veterinary medicine. Serpell has found that there are clear correlations between aggression and breed groups, specifically small breeds (with some exceptions) and herding breeds. These correlations are not controversial among ethologists, i.e., people who study animal behaviour for a living. Herding breeds show a greater tendency towards stranger aggression which is unsurprising given that they were bred in part for a protective function. It is hypothesized that aggression in small breeds, which is thought to be genetic, is a coincidence.

Knowing that breeding makes a tremendous difference in working dogs, it's silly to pretend that dog breeds can't possibly carry behavioural predispositions toward protection.

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Originally Posted by welsh

First off, Cesar Milan is not a reliable source: he has no professional qualifications and relies on ideas about canine psychology that are 20 years out of date. As for the Humane Society, their statements on aggression in dogs are driven by ideology, not science.

I referred to the C-BARQ. This is the largest database of dog behavior yet created, maintained by Dr. James Serpell at the Univ. of Pennsylvania school of veterinary medicine. Serpell has found that there are clear correlations between aggression and breed groups, specifically small breeds (with some exceptions) and herding breeds. These correlations are not controversial among ethologists, i.e., people who study animal behaviour for a living. Herding breeds show a greater tendency towards stranger aggression which is unsurprising given that they were bred in part for a protective function. It is hypothesized that aggression in small breeds, which is thought to be genetic, is a coincidence.

Knowing that breeding makes a tremendous difference in working dogs, it's silly to pretend that dog breeds can't possibly carry behavioural predispositions toward protection.

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I'd think anyone that has exposure to several different dog breeds would be pretty aware that aggression is very breed specific.
To suggest otherwise - well, don't expect anyone to take your position too seriously.

[QUOTE=Roper;960246]Studies regarding dog aggression being NOT breed specific comes from reliable sources. I read it as quoted by a high level Humane Society official. Cesar Milan (Dog Wisperer) had said it many times. Before you dispute the fact - do some research.[/QUOTE]

I read so many contradictory "Expert" opinion on about pretty much every subject that I don't trust much of it anymore. So base in my experience and MikePal original data, I don't agree with you.
In the first four or five years of my GS life I took her to the dog park to socialize with other dogs and strangers. I noticed her attitude was different than other breeds, particularly with men. I didn't see it as aggression but more like protection. She is around 10 now and if we let her be she will always stand between a stranger and my kids, GF or myself. Base on my experience, this is specific to that breed..

Man breed dogs for specific purposes and if protection was one of them the dogs will simply be more aggressive. I do believe early socialization and good training can almost eliminate any aggressive problems.However you cannot take it right out of the dogs DNA.
I did not get the opportunity to socialize my dog which has handicapped him from the chance to be more friendly towards other dogs.

He instinctively knows to protect the home and will protect me with his life,none of this was taught to him its in his DNA.He will also take on any dogs that pose a threat to me.In relation to humans if they pose no threat he has been fine and shown no aggression unless provoked.

The OP is interesting because Toronto now has 5 times the number of dogs since the ban and one would expect a much bigger bite number since there are more dogs.The increase is next to nothing considering the numbers.Also the authorities in Toronto do not classify the dogs as Pitbulls, the owners are asked what their dogs are and their answer is taken as correct.Therefore nobody knows if the incidents of pitbull bites is up or down as they are not identified as pitbulls by owners.

I would be surprised if the data regarding breed population numbers is anywhere near accurate, especially for pitbulls. I would think many pits aren't registered so off the radar if they aren't involved in something that brings in animal control or police.
Last time I went moose hunting in Western Ontario a kid tried to sell me a pitbul puppy at the Longlac gas station. Not that it's illegal to breed pits......:scream:

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Originally Posted by welsh

First off, Cesar Milan is not a reliable source: he has no professional qualifications and relies on ideas about canine psychology that are 20 years out of date.

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While I don't fully agree with Cesar, his grasp of 'pack' behaviour is far superior to anyone's else s research. I have owned 3-4 dogs at a time for the past 20 years and most of the success I have had with them, as a pack, was derived from the principles that Cesar teaches.

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Originally Posted by welsh

I referred to the C-BARQ. This is the largest database of dog behavior yet created, maintained by Dr. James Serpell at the Univ. of Pennsylvania school of veterinary medicine.

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I think you referenced that Questionnaire once before, seems it was used by kennels to access dogs up for adoption. If I remember correctly is was only accurate about 50% of the time. Especially in regards to the 'food guarding test', something about the stress of the environment skewed the results.

Which makes sense..the dogs environment will have a greater influence on it's aggressive tendencies than it's breeding.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

While I don't fully agree with Cesar, his grasp of 'pack' behaviour is far superior to anyone's else s research. I have owned 3-4 dogs at a time for the past 20 years and most of the success I have had with them, as a pack, was derived from the principles that Cesar teaches.



I think you referenced that Questionnaire once before, seems it was used by kennels to access dogs up for adoption. If I remember correctly is was only accurate about 50% of the time. Especially in regards to the 'food guarding test', something about the stress of the environment skewed the results.

Which makes sense..the dogs environment will have a greater influence on it's aggressive tendencies than it's breeding.

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good point regarding the pack behavior!
if it's the test that come up a few months ago on here, the criteria for "food aggression" in this test (at least for the lower end of the scale) only partially assess the inherent character of the dog and are skewed by environment and a handler who does not challenges the dog (in fear of a bite).

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Originally Posted by MikePal

While I don't fully agree with Cesar, his grasp of 'pack' behaviour is far superior to anyone's else s research.

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Cesar Milan's nonsense about pack behaviour has been comprehensively debunked by careful observational studies of dog packs. He is disregarded by professional authorities on this subject. His notions of dog behaviour are about as reliable as the Myers-Briggs personality test; that is, they're made up BS, ignored or derided by academic authorities in the field, but pushed widely on a gullible public in the interest of making money.

If you think his ideas are superior to everyone else's research on this subject, I presume you'll be able to tell me all about the latest research, right? Can you even name five contemporary researchers in canine ethology and cognition without hitting Google?

The fact that people are able to train dogs successfully using Cesar Milan's half-baked ideas does not prove his notions of dog behaviour are correct. Practical dog training succeeds in spite of a zillion half-brained "theories" as to why it succeeds.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I think you referenced that Questionnaire once before, seems it was used by kennels to access dogs up for adoption. If I remember correctly is was only accurate about 50% of the time.

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Wrong on both counts. And there is no "food guarding test" in the C-BARQ. There are no "tests" at all.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Cesar Milan's nonsense about pack behaviour has been comprehensively debunked by careful observational studies of dog packs. He is disregarded by professional authorities on this subject.

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Sorry to go against those experts opinions Welsh...but his theories work in practice..I know this because I have trained more than a few dogs using his basic principles of pack behavior...so they can debunk them all they want...but I know they work...I have 3 perfectly well behaved and adjust dogs sitting right beside me.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psjfqtx0es.jpg

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Originally Posted by welsh

Wrong on both counts. And there is no "food guarding test" in the C-BARQ. There are no "tests" at all.

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Maybe you haven't read thru the Questionnaire in some time Welsh.....but the section on Aggression (section 2) is a series of 'tests' to see if you dog acts when interacting with outside influences...maybe with a degree in "ethology" you call them something else, but they are still tests :)

number 17 and 19 are the food guarding test...since they don't like to stick little Sally's arm into danger they use a broom stick with a rubber glove on it..I understand that particular test has less than a 50 % success rate in determining aggressive behavior when conducted in different environments.

Example from the C-BARQ...

Section 2: Aggression

Some dogs display aggressive behavior from time to time. Typical signs of moderate aggression in dogs include barking, growling and baring teeth. More serious aggression generally includes snapping, lunging, biting, or attempting to bite. By writing in the appropriate number from the scale, please indicate your own dog's recent tendency to display aggressive behavior in each of the following contexts:


9. When verbally corrected or punished (scolded, shouted at, etc.) by you or a household member.
10. When approached directly by a n unfamiliar adult while being walked/exercised on a leash.
11. When approached directly by an unfamiliar child while being walked/exercised on a leash.
12. Toward unfamiliar persons approaching the dog while s/he is in your car (at the gas station, for example).
13. When toys, bones or other objects are taken away by a household member.
14. When bathed or groomed by a household member.
15. When an unfamiliar person approaches you or another member of your family at home.
16. When unfamiliar persons approach you or another member of your family away from your home.
17. When approached directly by a household member while s/he is eating.
18. When mailmen or other delivery workers approach your home.
19. When his/her food is taken away by a household member.
20. When strangers walk past your home while your dog is outside or in the yard.
21. When an unfamiliar person tries to touch or pet the dog.
22. When joggers, cyclists, rollerbladers or skateboarders pass your home while your dog is
outside or in the yard.
23. When approached directly by an unfamiliar male dog while being walked/exercised on a leash.
24. When approached directly by an unfamiliar female dog while being walked/exercised on a leash.
25. When stared at directly by a member of the household.
26. Toward unfamiliar dogs visiting your home.
27. Toward cats, squirrels or other animals entering your yard.
28. Toward unfamiliar persons visiting your home

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5556a31de4b0c2b7c9dfd0dd/t/5590be1fe4b0a675d6713233/1435549215582/C-BARQ+Written.pdf

If you've spent any time around dogs, it's pretty common sense evident it's both nature and nurture affecting their behavior;

When I had a rottie puppy and I brought her to a friends farm in BC who had lamas, she instantly started herding them... It was pretty cool she was just a little pint. She and likely quite a few of her recent descendants had never had any real herding experience, and she definitely didn't, but her DNA kicked in... I've seen this type of stuff in other breeds.


But Rotties also have a reputation for being extremely nasty or very positive depending on how you treat them, nurture at work...

"I'd think anyone that has exposure toseveral different dog breeds would be pretty aware that aggression is very breed specific.” Quote Werner Reiche

I do believe early socialization and goodtraining can almost eliminate any aggressive problems.However you cannot takeit right out of the dogs DNA.” Quote Gilroy

.............................

Well said gentlemen.

The 4 JRTs I’ve had have tested YES as below , despite an experienced trainer and full socialization. Not a scientific study but...

10. When approached directly by an unfamiliar adult while being walked/exercised on a leash
11. When approached directly by an unfamiliarchild while being walked/exercised on a leash.
12. Toward unfamiliar persons approachingthe dog while s/he is in your car (at the gas station, for example
14. When bathed or groomed by a house hold member.
15. When an unfamiliar person approachesyou or another member of your family at home.
16. When unfamiliar persons approach you oranother member of your family away from your home
18. When mailmen or other delivery workersapproach your home.
20. When strangers walk past your homewhile your dog is outside or in the yard.
21. When an unfamiliar person tries to touch or pet the dog.
22. When joggers, cyclists, rollerbladersor skateboarders pass your home while your dog is.outside or in the yard.
26. Toward unfamiliar dogs visiting your home.
27. Toward cats, squirrels or other animalsentering your yard .
28. Toward unfamiliar persons visiting your home.


Several ofthe ones not included are only due to me having dealt with it “firmly.”

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Sorry to go against those experts opinions Welsh...but his theories work in practice..

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That's impossible to say, because his psychobabble theories can't actually be put into practice. They're just fairy stories he made up to explain why things work. The theories don't lead to the practice here; the practice comes before the nonsense theories.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Maybe you haven't read thru the Questionnaire in some time Welsh.....but the section on Aggression (section 2) is a series of 'tests' to see if you dog acts when interacting with outside influences...maybe with a degree in "ethology" you call them something else, but they are still tests :)

number 17 and 19 are the food guarding test...since they don't like to stick little Sally's arm into danger they use a broom stick with a rubber glove on it..I

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No, they don't. That test is not part of any protocol for the C-BARQ.

The hilarious thing about your attempts to argue this point is that you have it precisely backwards.

The test that uses a rubber hand on a dowel to test resource guarding is not the C-BARQ; it is called Assess-a-Pet. This test was not developed by scientists; it was created by a dog trainer and shelter worker.

Assess-a-Pet is used by shelter staff who normally have no knowledge of the animal they are assessing. To test its validity, researchers used dogs with known temperaments and had qualified Assess-a-Pet users who did not know the dogs test them.

Did Assess-a-Pet identify aggressive dogs as aggressive? Did it identify non-aggressive dogs as aggressive?

They found that while Assess-a-Pet was more accurate than a coin toss, it was wrong much of the time, leading to the suggestion that it should no longer be used as its use results in non-aggressive dogs being put down as aggressive.

To give their work statistical validity, the researchers had to start with a known, validated means of assessing the known temperaments of the dogs -- an assessment tool that had previously been demonstrated to be accurate.

That tool was the C-BARQ.

That's right: you're arguing that the C-BARQ is full of it on the basis of an experiment that relied on the accuracy of the C-BARQ.

You can keep arguing, but it's only going to get more embarrassing.
http://thebark.com/content/testing-behavior-tests

Now to devise a handy test for identifying people who predisposed to yap on about subjects they know little about....

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Originally Posted by welsh

You can keep arguing, but it's only going to get more embarrassing.

Now to devise a handy test for identifying people who predisposed to yap on about subjects they know little about....

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Always with the slinging of mud eh Welsh, you can't seem to have a discussion without throwing in a few jabs..

So tell us , how they perform test 17 and 19 of the C-BARQ ?

It's done by kennel staff....do you think they put their bare hand into the food dish of an potentially aggressive dog ?

By the way, your link confirms that all these 'Ethology' tools developed by experts still only produce results about equal to flipping a coin...

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Originally Posted by welsh

Wrong on both counts. And there is no "food guarding test" in the C-BARQ. There are no "tests" at all.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Now to devise a handy test for identifying people who predisposed to yap on about subjects they know little about.

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I guess the fact that the C-BARQ does require testing to complete the questionnaire in regards to food guarding, means I was not Wrong on either count, which means maybe you should re-consider that response.

It wasn't me yapping about something I knew little about.

No. There is no testing in the C-BARQ, unless you expand the definition of "test" to include everything the dog has done in the past week. The C-BARQ protocol wants you to consider the dog's previous past behaviour, not to test it. If you always fed the dog in a place where no one goes near it, the protocol asks you to answer that the behaviour was not observed.

It's like a question asking, "has your child ever been in a fight at school?" That's not a test You aren't asked to put your kid in school to see if he gets in a fight. You're just asked if it has ever happened in the past.

This is why it can't be used to assess new dogs in shelters: you need a known history.

When I talk about aggression being "non-breed specific" I am referring to aggression towards humans. Aggression towards other dogs is influenced by Pack Leader instinct and falls outside my view of aggression.
Also - some people have posted examples of their dogs acting in a protective manner. This also is not aggression in my view. Its being protective.
How often have you seen small dogs (terriers, min.poodles, yorkies etc.) bark and snap at people. How many people on this site have been bitten by smaller dogs. I have. But they get a free pass because of their size. These breeds were not bred to be that way but commonly act aggressive to humans.

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Originally Posted by welsh

No. There is no testing in the C-BARQ, unless you expand the definition of "test" to include everything the dog has done in the past week.The C-BARQ protocol wants you to consider the dog's previous past behaviour, not to test it.

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And therein lies why the C-BARQ results are fallible, they use information obtained as hearsay from the previous owners to establish 'observations' of aggressive behaviour, or leave it blank, rendering the test meaningless.

Knowing that the results will flag a dog for euthanasia if they can't observe them for aggressive behaviour staff, they will set up scenarios in their daily routine to observe and record the actions of the dog....so enough of the semantics Welsh, that is called a test.

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Originally Posted by Roper

When I talk about aggression being "non-breed specific" I am referring to aggression towards humans. Aggression towards other dogs is influenced by Pack Leader instinct and falls outside my view of aggression.
Also - some people have posted examples of their dogs acting in a protective manner. This also is not aggression in my view. Its being protective.
How often have you seen small dogs (terriers, min.poodles, yorkies etc.) bark and snap at people. How many people on this site have been bitten by smaller dogs. I have. But they get a free pass because of their size. These breeds were not bred to be that way but commonly act aggressive to humans.

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I totally agree.

In regards to the Bichon that I own, he easily differentiates people. Strangers such as women and children get a welcome, a sniff and allows himself to be petted. He knows they are non threatening. Adult male visitors on the other hand are treated to growls and snarls until he determines after a while that no danger exists due to body language...etc. He has been like that for 12 years and correcting him as not resolved the issue. Fortunately, due to his size, most men just brush it off until the dog calms down after a few minutes and all is well.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

And therein lies why the C-BARQ results are fallible, they use information obtained as hearsay from the previous owners to establish 'observations' of aggressive behaviour, or leave it blank, rendering the test meaningless.

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The C-BARQ has been tested for external validity.

That's easy to test. Even someone like me can design an experiment to validate something like the C-BARQ ... you think teams of people with PhD's can't? The difference between science and nonsense like Assess-a-Pet is that the first thing scientists do with their tools is to test them. It's been tested, the results are published, and it's accepted by the scientific community as a valuable tool.

Moving on....

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Originally Posted by Roper

When I talk about aggression being "non-breed specific" I am referring to aggression towards humans. Aggression towards other dogs is influenced by Pack Leader instinct and falls outside my view of aggression.
Also - some people have posted examples of their dogs acting in a protective manner. This also is not aggression in my view. Its being protective.

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Aggressive behaviour is aggressive behaviour regardless of its motivation. If we're to have any kind of clear and impartial understanding of behaviour, the first principle is to call things what they are, without trying to explain them.

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Originally Posted by Roper

How often have you seen small dogs (terriers, min.poodles, yorkies etc.) bark and snap at people. How many people on this site have been bitten by smaller dogs. I have. But they get a free pass because of their size. These breeds were not bred to be that way but commonly act aggressive to humans.

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Dachshunds and Chihuahuas score the worst for aggression towards strangers; those two join Beagles and American Cockers as worst for aggression towards their owners, and Dachshunds, Chihuahuas and JRTs are among the worst for aggression towards other dogs. That's a pretty clear trend. Small dogs do get a free(ish) pass because of their size, but there's a reason for that: they're less likely to cause serious injury. The dogs people are most concerned about are the ones that can knock you down and maul you.

Incidentally, the two other significant outliers for aggression directed against dogs are Akitas (the most aggressive of all) and Pit Bulls (defined as American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier). Both were bred at times for dog-fighting purposes. Surprise!

Edited to add: one of the interesting things in the C-BARQ data I've seen is that Pit Bulls actually score below average for stranger and owner directed aggression ... which suggests that BSL (setting aside its inherent other flaws) simply isn't justified by the science.

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Originally Posted by impact

I totally agree.

In regards to the Bichon that I own, he easily differentiates people. Strangers such as women and children get a welcome, a sniff and allows himself to be petted. He knows they are non threatening. Adult male visitors on the other hand are treated to growls and snarls until he determines after a while that no danger exists due to body language...etc. He has been like that for 12 years and correcting him as not resolved the issue. Fortunately, due to his size, most men just brush it off until the dog calms down after a few minutes and all is well.

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My dog is the opposite, every human gets a warm welcome and tail wagging.But in a walk where he is approached by a barking and aggressive Bichon or similar dog look out.I will say with humans he seems to sense who might be a danger and will bark and appear more aggressive if he senses a threat.

Another statistic I would like to see is how many of these dog bites were committed by dogs that are not registered. Those dogs that are not registered would end up either being straight dogs or owned by people of questionable backgrounds I am very certain that the majority of pitbull bites are by pitbull's that are not registered

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Originally Posted by welsh

First off, Cesar Milan is not a reliable source: he has no professional qualifications and relies on ideas about canine psychology that are 20 years out of date. As for the Humane Society, their statements on aggression in dogs are driven by ideology, not science.

I referred to the C-BARQ. This is the largest database of dog behavior yet created, maintained by Dr. James Serpell at the Univ. of Pennsylvania school of veterinary medicine. Serpell has found that there are clear correlations between aggression and breed groups, specifically small breeds (with some exceptions) and herding breeds. These correlations are not controversial among ethologists, i.e., people who study animal behaviour for a living. Herding breeds show a greater tendency towards stranger aggression which is unsurprising given that they were bred in part for a protective function. It is hypothesized that aggression in small breeds, which is thought to be genetic, is a coincidence.

Knowing that breeding makes a tremendous difference in working dogs, it's silly to pretend that dog breeds can't possibly carry behavioural predispositions toward protection.

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Agreed on the whole milan point but I don't see how German Shepherds get brought into the mix.. It has alot also to do with genetics.. My GSD is from a working line in germany with many schutzhund titles and there are a few in the litter that have "weaker" aggression drives than mine. His father is by far one of the most driven dogs in term of "aggression" when hitting a bite sleeve. While I see your point I feel it should also be mentioned about the genetics and bloodlines.. if you can trace them.

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Originally Posted by Miller97

While I see your point I feel it should also be mentioned about the genetics and bloodlines.. if you can trace them.

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The problem with dogs like the GSD, is that the breeding program has been so poorly done, that physically they are ruined, which unfortunately brings in the whole question of their inherited behavioral stability.

see the thread: http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...-breed-debacle

Again Mike.. I agree.. but I didn't buy this dog from a backyard breeder. these people don't breed for profit.. they bred this littler to keep the genetics of Del Lupo Nero and Von Den Wolfen alive in canada.

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Originally Posted by Miller97

Agreed on the whole milan point but I don't see how German Shepherds get brought into the mix.. It has alot also to do with genetics.. My GSD is from a working line in germany with many schutzhund titles and there are a few in the litter that have "weaker" aggression drives than mine. His father is by far one of the most driven dogs in term of "aggression" when hitting a bite sleeve. While I see your point I feel it should also be mentioned about the genetics and bloodlines.. if you can trace them.

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When we talk about one breed or another testing higher for aggression, we are of course talking about an average. There is a fair amount of variation within the breed(s) also.

I posted a link in the main dog forum a little while back to a paper on variability in impulsivity in working vs. non-working border collies as compared to Labs, which speaks to your point. The same trend for Labs to be less impulsive than BCs is seen in non-working and working lines, but within-breed variability in non-working lines is large enough to make the difference statistically irrelevant. In working lines the variability is minimal and so the difference in impulsivity is clear. Breeding makes a significant difference.

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Originally Posted by Miller97

but I didn't buy this dog from a backyard breeder. these people don't breed for profit.

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just to clarify, those dogs in the KC Best of Breed video are not from 'backyard' puppy mills...they are from what is considered the top breeders of GSD's in the world.

Realized that after posting.. but unless it comes from germany with a schutzhund title and working lines with a SG/V rating from the WUSV.. It means absolutely nothing to me.