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I know this will stun everybody but Wynne just cut the MNRF budget by $19 Million. So don't expect any new initiatives unless she gets voted out which is unlikely. Enjoy what you have now because it will only go downhill.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...te-change-plan
Twitter:
We're investing $160 billion in infrastructure projects like schools, hospitals, roads and transit. #ONbudget
* Def'n "investing" - spending like a drunken sailor
Ranks right up there with her climate change..... takes a minute for the video to come up... get your barf bag ready
https://twitter.com/Kathleen_Wynne/s...79330435993600
Def'n "Twitter": A webpage where twits tell you their plans and schemes proudly, openly and show off the fact... they are twits!
Some of the stuff Justin , Wynne and George Butts and alJazeera post.... :angry::whacked:
Oxymoron,
Carbon tax supporting our ministry of natural resources and environment.
Cuts MNR funding and puts of spending freeze on hospitals but offers free tuition for low income ????
For the new ones that came here in januaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Bandwagon
http://www.moneysense.ca/news/ontari...thers-to-rise/Quote:
The elimination of the $30 Drive Clean fee grabbed the headlines from the Ontario budget, but the fiscal plan also contains increases in virtually every other government service fee, including vehicle registration.
Starting next year, fees for driver and vehicle licensing, camping in provincial parks, fishing and hunting licences, liquor licences, event permits and court applications will be adjusted annually to keep up with inflation.
The government says automatic indexation will protect the sustainability and quality of the services, and ensure that the costs of providing them are borne by those who use and benefit from them.
The Ontario government raised $2.1 billion in fiscal 2014-15 from service fees, and says it will review all of them with an eye to making sure services intended to help low-income residents don’t become more expensive.
Eliminating the Drive Clean fee will cost the province about $60 million a year to pay private garages to conduct the emissions tests, and drivers will still have to cover the cost of any needed repairs to bring their vehicle up to code.
The budget also eliminates licensing fees for adoption agencies and increases the threshold for waiving fees for mediation in family courts.
More bullshyte over Drive Clean. They eliminated the $30 fee,but,they didn't eliminate the Drive Clean Program,did they? What unmitigated crap!
Trust me, her carbon tax adds 4-5 bucks to a gas tank she isn't out any money. Most people will pay the cost of a drive clean every month now in new tax instead of every 2 years.
I didn't think there was anything left in MNRF's budget to slash.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I remember being at a meeting where I was introduced to several young biologists and policy analysts that were new hires to implement the MNR's Species at Risk initiatives. As I was shaking their hands I recall thinking, "Nice to meet you, enjoy it while it lasts, I'm not going to bother memorizing your names, because I will never see you again". And so it was.
Got this right.
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...-heat-the-home
People are going to buy, and burn, just as much gas after this tax goes into effect as they did before. It’s a hit on those who can least afford it. And it is far more a “revenue tool” than a planet saver.
So in Ontario, if your family makes less than a certain amount, you can apply for OSAP, 30% Off Ontario Tuition grant (automatically applied for when you apply to OSAP), Canada Student Grant for Persons from Low-Income (or Middle-Income) Families and any other scholarships available in your community (never mind the outlets you can use to reduce those loans) but apparently that isn't enough. I thought those programs were specifically for students in low income families. Are they not working anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandwagon
You know, following the idiots on Twitter it is easy to see their ideology and bragging points. Like Wynnes repeated posting about ruining Ontario's future with more and more debt. $160,000,000,000 (yes BILLION) in bragging here! Notice they aren't like the Federal liberals and including the "social infrastructure" spending in their ads, doesn't mean it isn't planned, just not mentioned.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcoUhv3WAAAOTw7.jpg:large
My husband is at the PC convention is Ottawa this weekend. There I a huge turnout, and lots of hope for a win in 2 years.
Of course Wynne is promising to have the budget balanced in 2018 ,( what a coincidence) , and she will with 3 one time sales: Hydro one, LCBO warehouse, On Power generator headquarters.
If the Wynne Liberals succeed in making Patrick Brown look like a cross between Attila the Hun and Archie Bunker then she will win again. She won with the multiple scandals and coverups as well as 10 years of complete fiscal incompetence. Ontarians are like children and alcoholics, too easy to manipulate with candy.
There will be a bunch of new contracts to be signed before that. Not sure there will be enough Crown assets she can Hock off and JT may not have the money to front her either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psnbsymcva.png
I think there is an opportunity here.... buy dinner and get position at power? Gov't post?
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...nergy-minister
Wynne defends $6,000 a head fundraising dinner with her and energy minister
So taxes keep going up, and they keep cutting on MNR, health, education ...
Revenues go up, costs go down, where does all that money go ... hmmmm.
"There I a huge turnout, and lots of hope for a win in 2 years."
While I'm hopeful more of the GTA has woken up, one only need read the papers to see what various Unions think. No-one to blame but themselves in the first place. First for the love and spending they happily pocketed 2000 to 2010. But then despite so much evidence and so many reasons to get rid of them while we could (yes it would mean a little pain), they instead decided they didn't like the taste their own mess left....
and its even worse now (theres no $). With many (teachers, Nurses, Drs, OPSEU) crying foul.
Patrick Brown despite showing a lot of promise this early (so much for the fear mongering when he won) is going to be in the same shoes (worse actually) than Hudak was. Fixing the mess is going to be painful and there are those who wont like that and would prefer it if Ms Wynne continued to make others pay for it (aka the middle class who don't have it near as good).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB
Dinner prices keep going up..... $6,000 dinner! One way of getting around corporate giving limits I guess.....
But where does it go.... Indian reserves have people living in hovels and yet get 10's of millions each year and the Liberals don't think the chiefs need to be accountable.... Unions get 100's of millions and the Liberals don't think Union chiefs need to disclose spending and unions don't need secret ballot voting....
Puzzling.... corporations get a bit to billions and have to be accountable, taxes, dividends tracked, payroll/CPP/EI tracked and paid to the gov't and the all money tracked and many of the Liberals I know talk about corrupt corporations and think it should be tracked. I guess people in corporations are working to earn the money not get handouts... maybe that's the difference.
... the Federal gov't is a puzzle too, even with the fact they have sold off the last of Canada's gold reserves I guess it can be tracked and they even send equalization payments to Ontario. We know paying interest on the debt is in the top couple expenses and CBC now gets over $1,000,000,000 so if you want I guess you can figure alot of it out.
... but where does the Ontario gov't money go?? Medical, debt, schools... those are big ones.. with debt growing faster each year but still seems like alot of committees and projects are run by insiders to me.
As student enrolment declines the cost of education climbs. Simply put it usually just means paying more for the same services/staff wether or not we need the service anymore. Information technology can probably eliminate 25-30% of clerical staff on the public dime. There would also be multiple levels of supervisory staff which would become redundant with less paper pushers. The technology exists but the unions wouldn't allow it and they control government now.
When taxes grow faster than inflation, it means disposable income is shrinking. It means someone is pocketing more money.
I could imagine health overall is costing us more due to baby boomers - and that is understandable, but there's got to be more.
For taxes to be calculated on income, which supposedly keeps up with inflation, and actually grows as GDP increases, and for that increase in tax revenue to not be enough, for the government to ask for a bigger piece of the pie ... well, is all that extra money really going into health, and is it because there's more patients or has taking care of patients become more expensive (per person), or is someone stealing the money??
If we can't explain where exactly the money goes ... I have another question.
At what taxation level does the government break the economy? I feel that the average person in Ontario is actually borrowing lots of money to survive, and so things are already unsustainable. More taxes (carbon tax on gas) is just pushing people closer to the brink of declaring bankrupcy.
What is truly a sustainable level of taxation (income, HST, fuel taxes, other sin taxes, duties, etc)?
Yes, but the total cost per annum should not increase by more than inflation. So as long as the tax base doesn't change, then there should be no increases in taxes needed for education. The cost per person educated may go up, but the total cost doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Speaking of the Ontario Conservative party.
http://www.therebel.media/patrick_br..._s_progressive
Interesting points.... 350,000 jobs lost, $1,000,000,000 A MONTH to pay the interest on the debt, ORPP will cost 54,000 jobs, 39% of healthcare is administration, graduating students without the skills for the modern world, 9,000 teachers graduated for 5,000 jobs etc. "Unethical to young people"... :-)
Before you say anything, it actually sounds like a good play to me, I think his "carbon tax" comments are a good idea for the low info greenies to feel like they can still vote for them and be green.
and a bit more about those $6000 dinners.... the Librano's are back and accountability and integrity really don't matter any more in Ontario!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com//opin...click=sf_globe
It's not hard figuring out where the bulk of the money goes. One only need look at the budgets.
Revenue = X
Debt payment = Y
Salaries and Compensation = Z
X = 120 billion
Y = 11 Billion
Z = 65-70 Billion
Leaves about .30 to .35 cents on the dollar for actual end product. Be that classroom supplies, new computers, MRI machines or new hips.
Doesn't leave much for roads, bridges, recipients (aka the lowly tax payer).
How much of Z, salaries and compensation is:Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
1) for essential services to the public like teaching, policing, doctors, nurses, firemen, peramedics, urban development, defense
vs.
2) administrative services - parliament, policy making, marketing, etc.
I'd like to know that we aren't spending the majority of our money on Z(2).
That Mark, is the multi billion dollar question.
This has been "debated" here many times. Do I think, they are "over" compensated? Do I think there are too many of them? Do I think it's one specific "branch" or do I try to think big picture and use the umbrella word......PS. Which includes all of them, from the pencil pushers and beuaracrats to some of the more vociferous/militant Unions.
I don't mind saying that in a general, loose sense some...um...famous ones like teachers, or OPP are over compensated these days.
Reality is, statistically only a small segment of society pull in that magical number of 100,000 year in "salary". Roughly 10-15% of the population. The vast majority make a lot less. Our mean duo income is 75k. So any Public Servant who gets paid 75k, earns what, 50% of the couples earn...........And have way better benefits.......way better job security (just look around these days)...and Pensions (very expensive and something only 35% (most of whom are PS) have.)
I'm going to be unemployed in a couple weeks. Given the climate, want to guess what my prospects are? Want to guess what some very specialized requiring years of education, years of continuing CE and PD, and liscenes, designations "earn".... I'll tell you, most jobs be it vanilla FA, or credit specialist, or mortgage specialist, or even a specialist in Anti Money laundering, Anti Terrorist financing ( heres one posting) even at the highest rates, it's in the 60k range.
http://www.aplitrak.com/?adid=bW1hcm....W12mXlu4.dpbs
.
The vast majority, don't earn the mean....But that is largely neither here nor there because PS have something, the vast majority in "private" don't.
They don't lose sleep worrying about their jobs, nor figuring out how the hell they are ever going to be able to save enough for their own futures (especially these days with soaring Hydro, Taxation and fees, taking thousands from their pockets) . I wonder, what that lack of real life stress is worth, over and above their "salary".
************
And very few of them get it, or apparently care. See the past the few elections.
Good luck JBen.
Am sure I'll be fine. My perspective on life is, ime (xperience) very different from most. This isn't the first time "life" has dealt me a major curveball. For starters, I don't have the same attachment to things big chunks of society do. Things like careers, homes, and more...Things like how much I earn or think Im worth (see PS Unions)..I lost my attachment to the "rat race" about 8 years ago.
A number of people I work with are envious of me (right word, not sure). The crap hit the fan 3-4 weeks ago. Many have already been let go, and within the next 1-3 weeks the Co will be closing it's doors. Everyone is going to be on the unemployment lines like tens, hundreds of thousands of others......
I've already sold my house. As of today I'm a vagabond. No house, no-where to live and no job. Im not all that freaked out, I don't need to earn 150k, 100k, or 60k to "be happy". I am now officially free as a bird, nothing tieing me down, to go where I want, do what I want.
Many of my colleagues though? Well many are still caught in the race and trappings of life. Many have been here 10-20 years, many haven't earned 80-100k. None have security, none have Pensions and many wont be getting severance packages....
They unlike some, are stressing, losing a lot of sleep for good reasons, and live in the "real" world.
/looks at those who have it good......
/looks at soaring Hydro, taxes, more....
/looks at the reasons why.
Sorry to hear all this Jben. You have the right attitude though. You have positioned yourself to be mobil and move quickly for oppurtunities that will come up.
Honestly, it's all good (though the "situation") isn't. Ill be just fine, haven't decided yet what in going to do. Maybe it's the opportunity to get out of the race, (which includes the God almighty dollar and feeling like we need or deserve X) and dive into photography full time. Or simply move to rural Ont and do something entirely different. Many of my colleagues though........
Just another difference between life in the "real" world and "PS". Where things like protecting tax payers, accountability and more are worlds apart.
in our business we do more than talk the walk. Though don't believe everything in the press. It's easy to make "examples" of the little people.
http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/bl...-of-maple-bank
JBen, every person I know that has gone through this, has hit the reset button and come out way better than before.
Good luck, but with hard work, you won't need it.
Yup had to do that multiple times over my working career. Good luck JBen !
Thanks guys, but really "am ok". Both my outlook and realities. Have been here before. Not the first time I've been laid off (though with severances very much in question that's "new"). Compared to 2008 when I had my wake up call (cancerous tumor, followed by divorce before the operation, all during the financial crises....
the point I'm making, is that while "ps" occasionally sees "curveballs", they live in different worlds. Don't really have to worry about job security, nor their futures. What "price" is that worth..........
Nor or do entire "branches" get wiped out for a) allegations b) the actions of a few in charge (see this wonderful admin). Seems to me the Unions and beuracrats, often forget what the real world is like
Where does the bulk of the provinces revenue go? See above.
55% salary/benefits
11% debt servicing
34% for "us"
are there too many?
are some over compensated?
how does anyone answer that? Well, at least in part by the taxpayers ability to pay.
those tax payers have a mean duo income of 75k, don't have the same benefits, nor the job security.
i don't know a single PS who had lost a job ever. Despite knowing quite a number......
/looks around the province and prices being paid by people far less fortunate than myself even.
/looks at soaring debt and taxes paying for everything/everyone
JBen I do understand where you are coming from. I had my own business for many years and it was a huge struggle for close to 10 years before I finally decided to shut it down and start over and go back to school. But it was the best training ground for me to learn how to be a responsible business man and understand the value of the dollar. I am very thankful for my current job as a manger for a mid size municipality where my education and past experience has benefited the tax payer. I have learned how to deal with all levels of stress in my working career effectively and respectfully. The biggest challenge working for a municipality is lack of manpower and the stress it creates trying to fulfill multiple roles. The last ten years municipalities that I have worked for do not rehire after a retirement but spread the work amongst staff.
I have seen many people legitimately go off on stress leave because of this reason and become seriously ill. I serve the taxpayer and from time to time remind my union maintenance staff of that as well. In fact it's an honor to serve the taxpayer ! I have saved the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of dollars or more over my 15 year municipal career. I know of a few others as well that work for municipal government that have done the same. Many of us do care and I know of some people who need to be reminded who pays their wages. But for the most part the people I have worked with in municipal government are extremely hard working people and are very appreciative.
Good post YD. Most people have no idea what it takes to be a public servant or the dedication most have to their job. They just see lucrative salaries and perks that are supposed to exist.
And JBen, I suspect you'll bounce right back with hardly a blip in your lifestyle.
JBen; well in my opinion everything happens for reason, some understand it sooner or later, worst case some never. I've been in your shoes and constantly am; as an IT Professional (Desktop Support/System Administrator) most of my jobs have been contracts. Simply cheap, expendable and ease to terminate. While I'm on a look out for IT Professional jobs, the prospect of being hired is getting slimmer due to higher number of young graduates and more unemployed professional IT in the market. It's all about connections now; rather quality/experience.
Personally I just get sick and tired of hearing about Liberals (Provincial or Federal) in the radio news, just makes me nauseous while driving. My dad tried to help me get a job in Peel Region so I could get into IT, apparently we're too honest and we don't grease palms (corruption/money) to get me inside. My dad got a job through sheer luck; but today without strong connections, forget it.
So right now, I am lucky to have understanding parents to give me a roof over my head, food on the table and other commodities. No worries I pay rent when I work; as a courier for now. When my unemployment finished while looking for IT Professional job, I had to basically take a job to pay rent and bills. With today's economy and Liberal's in power is just a disaster coming. People think it's just a breeze while I see a hurricane coming.
Aren't there all kinds of "green" jobs out there? Dalton and Wynnochio said there would be?
lol, I hear you there poltrojan. The majority in are shop our "lifers", with near everyone into their 40s and 10 years. Quite a number of us are over 50 and 20 years. So for those that are handcuffed to the rat race and trying to find employment with other Bay Street firms, they are up against thousands of Queens, Western recent grads....Guess what.......
very spiritual myself, and yep everything does happen for a reason. For myself, Im finding it quite liberating, and this is a great opportunity to do something different with my life. "Luckily" for me, I do have radically different perspectives about "what's important". If I end up somewhere rural, maybe being a "full time" photographer and the odd contract (within financial services). I've traded 10s of thousands in income, and the concrete jungle for a far happier and better quality of life......
Yellow dog, one of the reasons I try to avoid singling out any particular specific part of "PS" is that brush strokes rarely work. Some might accuse public servants of being lazy. Lots of truth to this, my neighbour (Ex AF with time in combat) now an engineer has spent time on both sides of the fence in water quality/control. He's worked for the govt (very high up) and private contractors. Both sides disgust him, corruption, inability to get things done, or on budget, and on and on...Notice I said....both sides....But then I look at him, or others in PS I know....they don't fit that bill...There are good and bad in all walks of life.
Same can be said of "dedication" Sawbill. Most people look at Bay Street and think everyone earns 100k, gets big bonuses, don't care about the public.....;) Looks at everyone in my shop, and many many friends who have been laid off over the past 10 years in other shops............And you know that when the topic of "PS" comes I have often defended the "monkeys on the treadmill" within it.
Am going to use "Teachers" for illustrative purposes.
Anyone here think teachers in Peru should earn say 75k (apprx guess what the avg here is), have great benefits, rich Pensions?
No? Why not? Well I assume its because the tax payers in Peru.......
The vast majority of people do not earn 75,000 (In fact that number is the mean DUO) and certainly don't have the security PS does. Neither job security, nor their futures ( only 35% of the population have Pensions).
One of my best friends is a nuclear physicist with OPG. He thinks they are way overpaid, in his 28years he's never been laid off, nor had to worry about it and he has his future secured.. Then again, being Ex AF s well, he understands what the "real" world is like.
Every guy I hunt with with either FF, or OPP.
They all know they are way over compensated. Especially these days, given the way arbitration works. Every single service will now be piggy backing off the OPPs salaries and recent obscene raises.
/points at the big picture, the provinces budget. How much is eaten up by Salaries/Benefits, Debt servicing, the growing debt..and a mere .35cents on the dollar coming back to us. And the vast majority of "us" in the real world which can be quite brutal and cut throat.
What price tag is that worth, being able to sleep at night knowing.......
I can clearly remember a time during 60's and 1970's when no one wanted to work for a municipality or any government job. Why because at that time our manufacturing sector in Ontario was very lucrative for people with less than a grade 12 education to make big money. I knew many people making over $25.00 hr and up to $32.00hr working in a factory with very little education. Municipal workers, PS were making much less than that at that time. It took many years of negotiating for a municipal worker to make a decent wage. I know that for a fact because my father worked for the municipality during the 1960's,70's and 80's as a park foreman. No one wanted to work for the municipality because it paid lousy wages compared to the local factories.
The manufacturing plants started moving out of Ontario during the late 1970's and 80's and fortunately the municipal workers were finally making better money after years of negotiating. My father always told me during the 60's and 1970's the workers that were hired as municipal workers were not the cream of the crop because of the low wages. The standards are much higher today and the workers are of a higher calibre.
I suspect your missing my point YD, which runs along the lines of X is only "worth" what people can afford to pay. Thats true of anything. You might think your "house" is worth $500,000 but if people can't afford it.....Would "teachers" be worth say 75,000 plus rich benefits in Peru when most of the population lives in hovels......?
There have been soooooooooooo studies, debates on this. Whether it's studies that show across the board "PS" earns in salary an avg of 13% more and has better benefits and has Pensions....Or per your post above. Used to be the well known trade off used to be job security and benefits but lower salaries.....Well......Funny, Merril Lynch Canada let some friend go on Thursday........
There are expressions about having "your cake and eating it to".
So I suppose it's arguable, that higher salaries are "better" for the people in various PS capacities. Perhaps they should join the rest of the world and accept less security and lower costing benefits.
How many municipalities have been crushed by plant closures, or have high unemployment (reduces the Munis tax revenue)....And now thanks to large OPP cost, tax burdens are sky rocketing. Some many even feeling they can't have OPP.
http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspa...opp_costs.html
This was also in the news on Friday
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...ling-1.3487133
Back in the fall Ontarios Union for electrical professionals grudgingly renegotiated their contract. I forget the specifics about the raises but do recall, they agreed to change their pensions from 80% tax payer funded to an even 50/50 Split.
/plays a fiddle.
Quote:
[COLOR=#000000]Mr. Chiarelli’s spokeswoman, Jordan Owens, said the raise will cost $5.3-million, but the company expects to save $5.64-million from contracting out. The pension concessions will see employees hired before 2005 pay 39 per cent of the contributions toward their pensions, up from 31 per cent, while employees hired after 2005 will have to pay 50 per cent. The rest will continue to be paid for by the province’s electricity users.
They still have very high paying jobs, likely never lose a night sleep worrying about job losses, way better job security and way better pensions (65% have none at all) than the people working hard so they one day don't have to.
Answers?
Who knows and certainly there will be those within PS who live pay check to pay check. But even "there" such a person still has it way better than same person, but for whom job loss is much higher risk, and for whom there is no Pension, and little hope of finding 2 nickels to save (especially these days with soaring Hydro/taxes).
But only need look around at the disparities to knows its screwed up. Especially given the vast majority don't have job security, don't have pensions, (see also ORPP and getting dinged for another 2% over and above everything else), are getting hammered by taxation, job losses, lower incomes (those who lose jobs, but find lower paying jobs to pay bills) and on and on.
And at every turn the Unions.....
Maybe you could look for a job with MNR. Or MTO. Now there's job security for you.
up north sure, but down here south in GTA. good luck with anything decent without connections. if the hands are greased enough you might just slip in. honesty and integrity has gone out the window since my first real employment in 2006 from my observation.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
I was being sarcastic. The MNR in the north has been decimated in almost all of its services--district and field offices closed, over the counter services gone to service centers, parks closed or privatized, fire crews cut back and recycling privatized, timber managed by timber companies, commercial fur management gone, and the list goes on and on in just about every government organization--federal provincial and municipal. Yet there are guys here who still insist their salaries and pensions are above that of industry and job security is a done deal.
Sawbill, thats but one area and I surely hope you recall how many times I have pointed that out as well. If we want current "proof", look no further than Nurses being laid off throughout Ontario this year.....Again the word is "better" security.
That said, why are nurses being let go? Because theres no money. Why is there "no" money? Lots of reasons, one of which is because the province already loses 55% ( or roughly 70 billion) to salaries and benefits. Why has the province run big deficits for the past 13 years? Well in part because so much of the pie goes to salaries and benefits (and only 35% left for the "beef') they end up having to borrow for
Infrastructure...or sell off crown assets...
But at the end of the day, if "PS" cost less maybe we wouldn't have to lay any off, maybe we could actually hire more. Look at the Education strikes the past year.. "no Money"...Well maybe if the cost for teachers were less, the education budget would have room for more teachers and thus smaller class sizes.
AKA maybe if PS cost a little less ( say 50 billion) we could actually hire more...teachers, more LEO, more Nurses, more Drs, more bean counters...
http://www.employmentprofessionalsca...-mean-for-you/
Now thats 2013, anyone wonder how it stacked up say between 2008-2011 (worst of the recession)?Quote:
[COLOR=#343434]In 2013, 3.8 percent of Canadians working in the private sector lost their jobs. This compares to 0.8 percent of government employees.
Consider also that when big chunks of private are losing jobs and/or seeing income losses. Unemployment reports only look at changes in the unemployed numbers...If 10 people lose jobs, but 7 of them find jobs, the unemployment numbers improve. How many of those 7 take lower paying jobs.....................
Those in PS? It keeps growing...so the "private" side of the teeter totter goes down, the public stays the same or goes up ( See raises based on years service)....over a few decades how does that affect things as well?
Going to try something. It's for illustrative purposes only. It's not gospel and it's certainly not to be considered as holding true everywhere.
Lets assume two people. Lets assume they both manage to hold onto their jobs their entire careers. Don't forget, 30-40-50 years ago the world was very different. Back in those days, the world wasn't as scary and most people did work 20 years for the same employer.
A few months ago there was an ad for Conservation Officers posted here on OOD. It said renumeration was around $1,200/week. That works out to $62,400/year. Not bad. Certainly not going to be driving Hummer/Porche numbers, but compared to the mean, far better.
So lets find someone in private who gets paid the same. 60,000 to 65,000. Many of the people I work (worked as past tense) with would likely fall into that. The Co has good benefits, so does the "banker". The Co has a Pension, the banker....not so lucky.
Conventional Wealth management advice would say to both. You want 60% of income in retirement years to keep the same lifestyle.
$38,000.
CPP and OAS will contribute $12,000 (just guessing).
$24,000 per year is the difference.
How much do they need to save during their working years?
$357,000
No idea what a COs pension pays per year. But lets assume, (just to keep numbers easy) it's $1,000/month or $12,000/year. If the CO draws $1,000/month thats $178,000 cost to the province for one "CO"
So how much does the CO have to save over their 25 year career in order to retire?
CPP and OAS $12,000
Pension $12,000
Shortfall $14,000 (goal of $38,000/year in retirement income).
$208,000
So both the "banker" and "Co" earn $63,000. Both go their entire careers with the same employer.
The CO will want to save $200,000
The Banker wants to save $357,000
Thats a difference of roughly $6,000 per year ( 157,000 / 25 ).
Not sure how many people who earn $60,000 a year are able to save $6,000 each year.
******************
Personally, despite being significantly better off ( Same pay, better job security, and pension) I don't think it's the "COs" within public service that's costing tax payers an arm and a leg.
The problem is the system isn't anywhere near realistic anymore. The PS pension plans were never designed to pay benefits for 20-30 years in some cases. With aging demographics and a shrinking pool of contributors we can't afford to have people on tax payed pensions for almost as long as they worked. You can't work for 30 years and then collect for 25 years of retirement. We just can't afford that and nobody can deny that. We can't keep increasing the debt at some point there will be blood letting. Interest rates, North Korean nuclear strike....who knows? There will come a day when the money will run out. The present PS pension system is just no longer sustainable.
And that's why she wants the Ontario Pension Plan ... she needs more money.
Anybody with a brain knows that. It's nothing but a big fat pool of cash she can use to expand the PS and her voting base. "Infrastructure, Climate Change, Pension plans" are nothing but smoke and mirrors to con the weak minded out of huge amounts of disposable income.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Who says it is "disposable".... more likely it is money to pay for renovations, sports and education (hence the tuition freebee), retirement, debt (probably the biggest one with mortgage and tuition). I know one die hard liberal that bought his house over 25 years ago and his renegotiated, renegotiated, consolidated debt... mortgage is now $30,000 more than he bought the house for. He doesn't seem to view the chains that the debt have him tied with and make any austerity efforts to eliminate it. Even those that want to probably can't when you start pilling on the taxes, electricity increases and now ORPP and throw in the companies that will reduce hiring or leave and the 25,000 (50,000????) Syrian refugees and immigration talking 300,000 this year.
No kidding Mosquito. As always I like, or prefer to put things into perspective.
ONT/CDA. MEAN DUO income: $75,000.
Anecdotally
"tax freedom day" Falls in June. So slightly less than half a year.
There are studies that report the average Canadian loses/spends.
43% taxes
40% housing, food, clothing.
So if your "middle class", earning the national average, or somewhat above. Lets use those "COs/Banker" types.
Annual gross salary: $65,000 for the typical working stiff but above the means/averages.
After tax take home: $37,050
Necessities: $26,000 (65,000 x .40)
Disposable: $11,050.00
$11,050 per year in "disposable" income.
How much has Hydro, taxation, land taxes, fee's gone up in the past 2-3 years?
How much are they supposed to save, so they to, one day can retire..oh yeah $6,000/year
Oh and lets not forget ORPP. 2%...or ($1300.00 less)
oh and lets not forget families (aka duo income) of greater than 50,000..well your kids post is going to cost more..
Oh and lets not forget Carbon Taxes....
Compare that say to a public servant who earns anywhere between 60,000 and 80,000. And has a DBP..
Compare that to those on the sunshine list (which has exploded in the past 8 years). And has a BDP paying a heck of a lot more for 15-25 years.
And people wonder why since the 60s when big brother really took off, where the money goes and why the middle class is shrinking...
And people wonder why the middle class, especially those in private who these days statistics say will lose or change jobs..4x..who can't save for retirement (see Cries to enhance CPP, or bring an ORPP)...have no sympathy, or animosity towards many in PS. Especially here in Ontario where they are in large part responsible for this admin.
Good points sawbill and fully agree ! I know and work with departments that use to have 8 to 10 people lets say in the clerks department that now have 3 people ! Many other departments have gone through the same down sizing over the last 10 years and this trend will continue. No new hires but add the extra work to staff to save money.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
If the manufacturing industry hadn't left starting in the 1970's we wouldn't be having this conversation. The IT sector was booming in the 1990's and that also left and went bust. Hydro rates continue to go up as well as being taxed on everything ! No new industry in Ontario whatsoever that pays a decent fair wage. Gee i wonder why ?! People can only blame themselves for voting in the wrong political parties who are supposed to entice new business to come to Ontario and work for us. My home town of Chatham Ontario had Cambell Soup, Libby's, Navistar, Rockwell, Eaton Springs along with a whole list of other manufacturing plants that have left or a very bare bones manufacturing plant that still exist. All paid big money at one time and no complained about the municipal worker or other government workers. Why because they were making a hell of a lot more money than government workers.
The shoe is now on the other foot and the grass looks greener. In reality it's not ! Why because of everything i had mentioned earlier adding the mental health and stress levels that continue to climb.
People will always be comparing to what others have and that will never change. What needs to change is having responsible leaders and holding them accountable for all the promises they make and not make good on. We need new big business to come to Ontario and it needs to be presented in such a way that it is financially feasible for new business to start up. Huge reduction in hydro rates, tax, land tax, water charges etc. Make it so enticing that it would be stupid not to say no. Have them commit for so many years at these rates then slowly increase the rates.
What private industry pays doesn't affect you like PS and tax money. If a private firm overlpays staff they become uncompetitive and people "choose" another supplier. Can't do that with civil services. Apples & Oranges.
You missed the point.Tell me what the solution is Terry ?Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Curious Yellow Dog.
After party X reduces corporate rates to entice new business. Reduces land taxes, taxes and fees.
Currently provincial Rev is about 130B. salaries and benefits 55% or 70B.
so after all these large tax cuts.
rev 100B
S and B still 70B
debt service 15%
15% or there a outs left over for the end users/infrastructure.
re "grass is Greener"
did you read any of the links?
11-12% higher Salaries and better job security and Pensions.
um.........and that 11-2% is across the board. When it's broken down. I believe it's
18% higher in lower income brackets
12-13% at the middle brackets
7-8% at the high brackets.
Re losses. Yep, some areas of PS have seen layoffs, again, read the above link.
2013
private sector losses 3.5%
public sector losses 0.8%
saying it's different doesn't make it different.
Now do I think all areas, all personnel???
nope but what does need to happen is reducing PS COST.
whether that's head count, Salaries, or Benefits (pensions)
reducing taxes just means there's nowhere near enough $ to pay for everyone/everything.
And they can start with areas that make far more and have it far better than the peons who can't find 2 nickels and can only dream about retirement themselves.
aka much of the--by definition---middle class, the families who combined earn 75k and above
the solution is to live within our capacity to pay. That means the end of DEfined benefit plans. Why should a single mom who can't afford to save for her own retirement have to pay for someone who has been overpaid by 13% ? That 13% should have been plenty for an RRSP plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Terry, let's forget the "single" moms. Aka people who work in the real world, where job security is and pensions are scarce.
YD. you feel that your under staffed. Could provide better service if your head count was higher.
We know ministries like the MNRF have been gutted since the 90s
we know that currently Teachers feel they are under staffed (class sizes)
we know that currently RNs are being let go in large numbers. Where wait times and more plague healthcare.
we know we need more DRs (800,000 peons without GPs)
we should know, there would be other areas. LEO? Others?
******
why are so many areas in PS cutting people?
could it be because there's not enough money?
why do you think the MNR has seen millions and millions taken from their budget, and instead given to say "education". Could it be due to rising cost?
Worth fixing right? How? By hammering peons? By hammering companies when they are fleeing in droves, or see Hydro cost and won't invest here already?
with current cost of PS, how can we hire more?
Raise another 20B in taxes?
see the peons plight.
what if, the cost of PS was reduced 10-15%.
Not by head count. So no one loses their job, but Salary and Benefits.
how many more Nurses, could we hire with an extra 10billion?
how many more "teachers" or COs.........
lets to look at how many people are on The Sunshine list this year. And don't forget 80% of them have DBPs. Paid for largely by everyone lower in the pyramid. So some person who earns say 150k (Ms Wynnes definition of rich). Also has a pension that they will draw how from (70%?) each they remain alive.
Why should I have to pay for subsidized daycare for the single mom ?Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[QUOTE=JBen;963138]Terry, let's forget the "single" moms. Aka people who work in the real world, where job security is and pensions are scarce.QUOTE]
I live in an industrial blue collar area. Inco, Falconbridge, CN, CP, to name the larger employers.
Around here thats the real world.
They all have pension plans that rival any PS plan and yep, I'd like to see their sunshine list--especially hydro. Still, all have greatly reduced their staff same as PS but you continue to hammer away at the PS.
The real problem is all people living longer, collecting pensions beyond what was anticipated and the subsequent increase in health care requirements for those people.
The same reason you have to pay for the surgery of a cancer patient who got cancer from smoking all their life. If we want to pick and choose what we support and what we don't support as a nation, based purely on our own small perspective of life, everything will go to hell fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by stragglelake
I'm not saying support everything but we do need to understand what is the end point or objective. For a single mom to survive she needs her kids in daycare. When daycare costs $15000 a year that makes it tough for a person who's trying in life, to survive.
[QUOTE=sawbill;963199]Plus baby boomers now reaching age where medical costs will sky rocket. The system isn't ready for it. The government didn't save enough. The medical services will be provided and both the system will be strained and so will the tax payer.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Agreed. I can't wait to kick her our of government. If she's voted in again, then I know we're doomed.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
[QUOTE=sawbill;963199]Word it however you like Sawbill.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
One (not the only difference) between "PS" and say a Falconbridge, or Inco or Teck or CN...
No body forces consumers to spend/shop or buy at Falconbridge. When things become too expensive.......In other words Falconbridge doesn't reach into the pockets of people without their ok.
Try that with "PS" and you go to jail.
*****
Do you know what the difference is between DBPs and DCPs?
Most public pensions are DBPs
Most private pensions are DCPs
And then there is the vast majority of people who don't have one period (65% of the pop)
******
The "problem" are a few. One is longevity, absolutely. Quite agree back in 60s, 70s few weren't smart enough to figure out that life expectancy would increase...(back then it was around 12years male, today its over 20)...Back then don't forget the formula was lower pay, but better security and benefits....Today its same/higher pay....and
So what ignore the fact that due to longevity and increased cost burdens...Lets sweep it under the rug because we don't want to hear it?
Another is rising compensation. Have you seen the Sunshine list lately?
Guess what Sawbill, the more a person earns, the higher the payouts under DBPs. Its the benefit that's defined not the contribution
Maybe if you went your life funding a DContributionP yourself......
How many of the PS Pensions are
50% employee/50% tax payer
40% employee/60% tax payer
30% employee/70% tax payer (see Hydro Pensions)
Tell ya Sawbill.
Why don't we make ORPP
50% Employee
50% PS people
Atleast as a DCP it will still be a bargain vs the considerably more expensive DBPs and "fairer"
Can we count on you?
******
The "problems" are numerous
800,000 people without GPs
waittimes and more
Bed and Nurse shortages
People who have neither the same "security", nor futures (Pensions) who combined earn 75-100k. What some "teachers" make alone (let alone someday a hefty Pension).
Getting hammered.
How do you propose we hire say
1,000 GPs at $200,000 each plus their Pension
5,000 Nurses at say $60,000 each plus their Pension
500 COs at say $62,000 each plus their Pension
500 Biologist at say 80,000 each and their Pension
Given things...
Let alone so many other things. Not the least of which is the tax burdens hard working people are bearing paying for everything and everyone
I don't smoke or have kids but I do have a pension plan. I guess I should give up my pension plan to fund some of these things and we can have a race to the bottom.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Excuse Me! Nobody forces us to buy from a Falco or an Inco? Or CN or CP. Next time you have to buy something like house wiring or a pot or an automobile maybe you think the material just fell off a tree and blew in on the wind. So you word it however you like. But these companies salaries do impact us every time you go to a grocery store or do your consumer thing.
What happens Sawbill when their cost......
What happens when overhead gets to expensive for GM, and so many others......
http://m.torontosun.com/2016/03/15/e...sing-in-canada
Tell me Sawbill. How many people in Rural Ontario rely on heating oil....
maybe oneday those who have relatively good, will understand what the cost of PS is doing.
maybe you'd like to speculate why the MNRF has been gutted the past 30 years? Could it be because they took the money to pay for....
and maybe if if rather than taxing the help out if the peons for ever increasing cost reduce the cost and maybe then we could afford more
Nurses or Teachers, or COs?
When overhead gets to expensive for GM they get a bail out from the government.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Maybe they took the money to pay for daycare and treatment for smokers with lung cancer and people on ODSP.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They pick up and BO to Mexico. If the government did the same you'd be whining about lack of services.
MNR got gutted because there are far more life pressing issues that the public demand for their taxes--police services, health care, education. You're a master at the Google thing, research the salaries of MNR to other government agencies and you will find they are at the absolute bottom of the barrel.
I'm a master at Google ??Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
I haven't googled anything that I have written !
If you believe they have gutted the MNR to fund other pressing issues then you are very naive.
They gutted the MNR the same reason they gutted the ministry of transportation .... Because they don't care about the natural resources or if your safe on the roads or you stand in line at the MOT office for an hour !!!
All the plowing of the roads are contracted out to public companies now and how is that working out... Not good !!
I'm sure it costs the same as it did before but it's one company making all the money with no ownership to the work they perform.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So Sawbill.
lets agree there are areas where we have shortages, be that the MNR or Nursing. Either of these should do.
Whats your suggestion for finding the $
Take 100-300 million per year from education? If I recall correctly the recent 1% raise teachers got will cost 500 million.
Continue to tax people who pound for pound are worse off? As Terry said, what about the single moms who earn say 60,000 and don't have a Pension or the same kind of security...?
What about the 800,000 tax paying Ontarians without GPs?
Take anothet 100 million from...300million from...and 200mlion from...?
or find ways to reduce the cost of PS for a change without gutting areas that are easy targets/low in the food chain.?
novel idea right?
not sure why you complete dismiss so many things be it
studies that show losses in PS are significantly smaller, be it studies that show higher wages, benefits at all ranges. Some even suggest 25% more when benefits are factored in......
or simply the total cost of "PS" which eats 55% of the revenue. Add debt servicing (11%)
doesnt leave much for A to Z.
And you do know that longevity......so just ignore that?
Because I'm in a "mood", having just left a 3 hour meeting with 30 colleagues with labour lawyers.
And you seem to think "everyone" on Bay Street has it good.
Average salary 47,000
without the same job security
many of whom no Pension.
http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...Advisor/Salary
tbose are the people and those like them, I have sympathy for these days.
Given well many things......not the least of which is exploding taxes, brutal management, soaring debt, and more.
Straggle, the google comment wasn't directed to you but to JB. I 'm certainly not naïve about why MNR cuts occurred. I worked there for 30 plus years through the best and worst of times. Whether the government of the day cares or not about the environment is not the issue. The issue is where will the majority of the public accept cuts to services when those cuts are an absolute. Save a few trees or educate the kids? Provide fishing/hunting opportunities for a few thousand outdoorsmen or pay to repair/replace obsolete infrastructure?
Back in the early 80's MOE hired a pile of inspectors to monitor, regulate and enforce our environmental laws. Where are they now? All gone because of budget constraints and those constraints translates directly to perceived lucrative job security--which is what we're discussing here. That and pensions.
The public are demanding cuts to the public service. One way to reach that objective is to contract out and/or privatize. That way the public doesn't pay a salary for 12 months for snowplow operators. You're saying we're getting poorer service from these contractors (the hwys aren't as safe anymore). When the city plowed our streets, complaints were minimal. Now its contractors and the work isn't up to snuff. But the city is saving a bundle. So, which do you want?
You're all saying you want what is best for your personal situation. Better roads. Better education. But your priorities are not my priorities.
JBen, my rant has nothing to do with MNR but the perception many here have that all government has job security and great pension plans. Underworked and overpaid. Any government agency I've dealt with in recent years have gone through nothing but staff cutbacks, privitization of programs, part time contracts and the such. Upper management enjoys the same salaries as whats expected in private industry. If you want to pay peanuts, you get a monkey. If you want quality you gotta pay--same as private industry.
Heck with the electricity costs, infrastructure cost, taxes...Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
They just go to Ohio
Leamington Greenhouses - 200M project in Ohio
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...ohio-1.2917918
Automakers
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gm-t...lant-1.3055605
GM to cut 1,000 jobs at Ontario plant
Automaker outlines plans to invest $5.4 billion in U.S. but nothing in Canada
but yes some do go to Mexico
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/carm...gear-1.3108148
Carmakers say adios to Canada as Mexico shifts into higher gear
Mexico now makes more cars than Canada, a trend that's not expected to change
and a bit of Wynnes's "infrastructure" spending they are bragging about today.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdoPlgRUkAAL3jy.jpg
With all the extra corporate,health,WSIB taxes and increased Hydro costs,I'm surprised GM,Ford and Chrysler are still here. Other than the quality of the worforce building quality vehicles,there;s absolutely no further incentive to stay.
I know Sawbill your frustration is aimed more at people who think everyone in Public Service is immune to cuts. Or everyone in PS makes say...80,000...90,000...100,000, 150,000 and has lavish Pensions. Forgetting that just as in "private", there are those who...And isn't it funny how usually those in PS who tend to pay the prices are those that are easy targets, lower in food chain.
Perhaps I shouldn't say, "So Sawbill"...:(
But it is beyond frustrating to know, sooooo many, normal every day folk are getting crushed by things, to the point where even "they" ( They being Ms Wynne and JT) are selling......people are trouble, we need to do something about their retirement prospects...
tax
tax
tax
some more paying for "everything" and "everyone".
And anytime it comes up, many in PS and their Unions especially (who lets not forget spent millions campaigning hard for them, and have since 2003...creating the mess and now continuing it..
meanwhile people who can't find 2 nickels just keep taking it on the chin.
RE Municipal taxes.
See Downloading various services.
Definition of insanity?
Funny, don't think anyone just for arguments sake has said.
Gee, do those who earn 150,000 and more really need DBPs?
Gee, do those who earn 75,000 (the DUO mean) really need DBPs that are 50% 60% 0t 70% funded by tax payers who...Maybe its time reduce the tax payer funded portion 25%?
or other/similiar ways to save without laying thousands off.
Maybe then they wouldn't raid the MoE ( Gee and here I was thinking the environment is oh so important to them) or the MNRF, or lay off RNs and hire practical Nurses as they are doing now..WHy, because Practical RNs cost less than RNs.
funny that
Well said sawbill. Thank you. I'm done on this thread !Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Well Yellow Dog.
You seem to forget that currently. The typical person
loses 43% to taxation
pays 40% for housing, food, clothing.
Does not have the same security as PS.
For gods sake 300,000 people lost jobs in manufacturing alone in 2008.
Look at Alberta.....And before you point fingers at "Oil patch" workers who made tons...Recall not everyone does. And even the lowly waitresses and waiters who aren't getting big tips, serving full restaurants are feeling it...
65% do not have Pensions.
Where do you think the money should come from? Seeing as how if we want it we have to pay for it.
Hate to "break" it to you but the dog (private) wags the tail.
Meaning the better off "private" is, the better off "public" is. The more the economy grows...
Food for thought.
Some reading for you YD.
http://business.financialpost.com/ne...ties-in-canada
Heres more
Ignore the actual salaries (not pertinent), just look at the growth (see that word growth...its not getting smaller its growing) in 2015.
Wheres all this reduction you speak off?
Growth of over 10%...Hmmm, last I checked the economy is sucking wind and growth in the real world is 1.5%
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ased-1.3011758
Again wheres all these reductions? Its GROWN 82% since the peons in private took it on the chin in 2008
Quote:
[COLOR=#333333]In 2013, there were 97,796 people on the list, up 11% from 2012. The list has grown by 82% since 2008, when fewer than 54,000 people appeared.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/ontarios-annual-sunshine-list-balloons-again-as-the-province-struggles-to-rein-in-compensation
We can only speak in generalities, so to assume there haven't been cuts, or some areas aren't thread bare and understaffed. Well that would be folly....But overall
PS has better security than private, how many links and articles would you like me to link before we stop arguing that.
Or simply look at what is now occurring in ALTA as well
Yup your the expert good luck with your future.
Not an expert YD, but your an expert of?
You disect budgets and employment numbers?
if I recall correctly the "sore" point seems to be that PS is being gutted, as or more than those in private?
funny, I haven't seen any reports, or articles, or studies that show that per above. Simply read the one about hiring....... Or
82% growth overall in just the SS list........
also one reason municipal growth has exploded...is due to DLing.
for the record
111,000 people now on the SS list. If they all make 100,000 (many make far more) but let's be conservative.
111,000 x $100,00= how much?
Well, JB, having sat with labor lawyers for 3 hours you've managed to keep your composure here. My compliments.
I'll just blame industries' woes on the unions and leave it at that.
Hey, Yellow mutt! Wait up there. I'm done too.
It wasn't pleasant :)
i blame politicians who who worry more about winning, or staying in power than all the peons, both public and private. Then the unions who are really no different. The care more about their power, than their members they claim to serve. And finally, the electorate.
PS YD.
we could blame Harris for some of this to. Downloading onto Municipalities, so up go land taxes. Certain areas hit hard, so lots of hiring.
we could blame Rae to. Who really triggered it all. Harris did things trying to fix that mess, McGuinty did things trying fix some things Harris went to far.
back then, the reports and articles showed severe cuts to PS, brain drain to the the U.S. (Doctors)...
today, those same studies show...
16 years to fix healthcare.
its worse today
Some people will never be satisfied until , the government of the day, breaks or refuses to fulfill a signed contract , bargained in good faith, and cut PS numbers , salaries and pensions 25%. Some feel that once that happens all will be right with the world.
Let's look at some reality, the gov't seems to have no problems with trying to hire... The province is "only" hiring in 115 categories of jobs when I looked... and if you put in $80,000 there are 41 titles of them that fit, probably atleast twice that number of jobs themselves.
https://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Search.aspx
Here is a new one with 12 openings.
https://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview...sh&JobID=90709
OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY INSPECTOR-INDUSTRIAL (12)
Organization:Ministry of Labour
Salary:$1,321.19 - $1,624.55 Per Week
Location:Mississauga, Newmarket, Central Region; Ottawa, East Region; Sudbury, Thunder Bay, North Region; North York, Toronto Region; Hamilton, London, West Region
Closing Date:Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:59 pm EDT
The fulltimers that are union can count on about the equivalent of 30% of their salary in benefits, benefits that far exceed even the banks usually.
So those 12 positions filled at the bottom pay scale and a 50 week year would make $66050 and * 12
$792,600 and add 30% for benefits and there's a $1M per year without office space, equipment etc included.
Another example if you are a student looking for a summer job ... in the one category there are 747 positions for:
STUDENT - PARK RANGER
https://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview...sh&JobID=90205
Then another 152 and a bunch of Service counter... so about 1,000 summer students.
"Bargained in good faith" - oh like bribing unions?Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
PS expenses need to be cut. I don't think anyone's arguing that's not an issue - except for the PS unions and their members. How to do it? No one has the answer, but it's obvious - both numbers and compensation.
When you're sinking in a leaky boat - which do you do first? Fix the leak or start bailing?
Hmmm.
100 colleagues of mine signed contracts to Gord......Today we all are out of work....
Your point?
Many during the meeting yesterday raised questions. A couple of people asked "We are salary and bonus". Are bonuses factored in to any severance amounts (assuming theres money to pay everyone severance). Lawyer "Well companies say things like "discretionary"...A couple more asked "Under continuous packages, if I get a settlement of 1 years compensation, most of us know we will be lucky to find jobs that pay the same. So if I find a job in 6 months, but it pays 20,000 less ( maybe one of our University and more educated people who has been earning 65,000) takes a job as a Financial Advisor that pays an average 47,000 (<<<Something unemployment numbers don't show/report on...I wonder, of the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people who have lost jobs since 2008 landed in that boat) meanwhile Taxes, Hydro, Sunlist List keep going up, up and up.....Does the Co owe me the difference?
Am curious Gord.
Life isn't fair. Ever here the cliche "we are entitled to nothing"? Why do you believe for only some it should be.
See also Werners point about "good faith".
See OPP getting 8.5% and what thats doing to many rural municipalities. Too bad, so sad for you serf?
See more...
********
Professional Athletes (who btw are screaming about ORPP)...When they sign contracts, and for whatever reason become too expensive. What happens?
Definition of Insanity?
See Ontario doing the same things over and over and over.
Has anyone said....Well Gee if there weren't sooooo many people in the education earning 90,000 or more (including the boards) who will have lavish Pensions that are paid for life ( read up on DBPs and DCPs or pay a Financial Advisor 47,000 to take care of your future)..Instead had a compensation package that was slightly less somewhere be it their pay or their Pension (maybe once they start earning north of XXk, they could fund their own Pension for example, we could hire more and keep class sizes at 20 or under? Heck maybe if can find 10b in savings ( you do understand how big "PS" is right?) we might not have to lay off any of the PS peons (those who don't have it really good either)...And just because. If the provinces revenue is 120b, and total PS cost is 55%. So lets call it 70b. Finding 10b somewhere/somehow is a huge whopping reduction of 14%.
111,000 people earning the minimum of 100,000 = ??? Lets average that and say 111,000 earning $200,000. How much is that?
Novel idea right? And isn't you G who always say tax the wealthy more?
Why not compensate some of them less? Especially when, the people paying it have no choice and are getting crushed..
*******
In theory Werner, between growth in the economy and population growth...In time if all PS accepted total freezes.....For years until those two things.....
Problem being population growth is trending down ( Yet PS grows)
Problem being the economy is still sucking wind and no-one is predicting boom years ahead.
Lots of reason for the economy sucking wind. Funny, the politicians and Unions never mention
Private having less and less disposable income. Aka people are spending less.
/wonder why
Employment contracts frequently get broken. There's a severance payment and that's it. And a private sector severance is "as required by law", not the golden handshake the PS gets.
fishermccan, it's obvious that you have spent a long time in the PS and don't know much about how life is in the private sector. Sure we all wish we could work in the PS, but some of us have to work outside of it to pay Ontario's (and Canada's) bills. Even though PS workers pay income tax, you do realise that is no net gain to the province/Country? It's money that *doesn't exist*.
As I said Werner, it wasn't pleasant.
Another question yesterday. Many of us have suffered damage to our professional reputations due to A) actions in Germany and B) bad press by the German Authorities. Meaning what happens when some of get asked "Oh, you worked there".....
next applicant please.
Is there any compensation for that?
Re: the "tax the wealthy more"...they don't realise that the "wealthy" are those about 80K and up.
Re: OPP and rural municipalities - what happened there is criminal, and the province is preventing them from going back to local policing by calling for standards that local municipalities can't meet. They are doing the same with local volunteer fire departments, but at least for now, the volunteers have been managing to keep up.
Yep, seems like many think earning 80k is the norm. Despite the fact 75k is the mean duo and most of those don't have Pensions that pay a defined percentage of earnings (often typically the average of the highest 7 years).........
I have no problems being "open/honest".
Hey G, back in 2008 my income was well over 100,000. This year well nowhere near that. Given things, everyone here (except the lowest paid) willingly "renogiated our contracts".....Difference between between lay-offs and keeping everyone employed..
Food for thought.
******
YD. Guys I hunt with?
Retired OPP (Chatam/Kent/Walpole area)
Retired Fire Capt: Chatam/Kent
Active FF (Chatam/Kent)
Active paramedic (Chatam Kent)
Know all about 24 hour shifts, the move to combine all 3 services into one (Police/Fire/Para) and more....
Good friend. Parole officer Orillia. She to knows they have jack squat to complain about. Rants about how the OPP fly people up to Thunder Bay for meetings ( Apparently they are a few miles further North than barrie) and on and on and on.....
Some seem to think those of us who can look at many things and see that yep....
We advocate for widescale indiscriminate cuts to "PS". Screw them all we say, reduce everyone's salary 25%
Am pretty my two nieces in education who work with special needs
Am pretty sure my Niece and Aunt who are EAs
Good friend that is a Teacher with 18years...Knows they are over compensated, once they start getting up there. Especially given they only work 3/4s of a year. But teachers with say less than 10years? Not so much....The many who cant get hired on full time because.....Know a great kid, after 4 years of trying to find a teaching career. He's now a glazier........But as she says, what are we supposed to do...fire tens of thousands of Teachers who are "up there"?
No argument some area's have seen cuts, are seeing cuts. read the links.
Hiring growth exceeds
Growth exceeds inflation
losses are far less than whats "out there"
and on and on.
Just because I can look at things and see problems, doesn't mean I think we should start lopping off heads.....
Maybe more people should stop looking from the curb, take your shoes off and come walk on the tall, green, lush soft grass, it will make you feel better.... it's always greener on the other side.
Talk about whining....if you don't like what you are doing, try and do something about it, life is too short to be complaining all the time.
JBen - admitting to the problem is something the Ontario liberals are finally getting around to.
They haven't got a clue as to what to do about it - when the answer is obvious.
As far as lopping heads - it's not the answer, but its part of it.
I think reducing compensation is a more significant part of it.
The PS wants none of either of those.
But its coming....look no further than Greece.
Up until now, its all been on the backs of the private sector - minimal raised over the past 15 years, no pensions. The ORPP is another tax and it is aimed at exactly the people it pretends to protect. Its the liberal politicians and the PS setting up to give private sector workers a screwing unprecedented in Canada.
So your saying we should all go work in the PS??? Who's going to pay the bills then?Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
You can't put the genie back in the bottle. The unions have taken control of the Provincial government and with them basically buying off elections now I can't see it ever changing. The only tool left by management is to eliminate jobs so that will continue. If the union decided that full employment at 85% of current wages was better than looming layoffs then more people would retain PS jobs and servic levels wouldn't have to be cut. That will never happen. A 15% wage cut would put the PS back into line with what the taxpayers can actually pay. Every government has caved to PS unions so its not entirely a Liberal thing but lets not kid ourselves either.
Not at all, what I am saying is there are a lot of good jobs out there, Private or Public, If one isn't happy with their job, or how they are being treated/paid, they should look for employment elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
You can't blame a Public Servant for taking a job that pays/offers XXX no more than you can blame a Private Employee for taking a job that pays/offers XXX. There are a lot of good and bad jobs out there.
Everyone wants a good job, but good jobs are hard to come by because not too many people want to give them up.
/dons sarcasm hat
Maybe Fatri, the problem began when those of you in PS with better security, better benefits and pensions ( and do note Fatri, pensions are a hot topic everywhere, everyone knows those without are facing bleak futures) but lower pay. See howls to enhance CPP, see ORPP, see Hydro employee's whinning about having to contribute 39% now instead of 31%. See so many things about life expectancy and more.....
Cried about greener grass loud enough and long enough until you had it all. See also all the cries when Harris was gutting certain narrow parts......And now when the shoe is on the other foot and its brutally obvious there are problems.
/takes sarcasm hat off
;)
Fatri re "good jobs"
One of, if not the best book ever written for those who find themselves unemployed.
You should read it, it's quite sobering.
https://www.amazon.ca/What-Color-You...=1&*entries*=0
Or simply go to the authors site.
http://www.jobhuntersbible.com/articles
Curious Fatri. I wonder if people in PS who are reading this will actively participate and an informal poll.
How many times have you been laid off.
Me: twice and narrowly escaped a third time back in 96
I have a lot of PS in my family and friends. Don't know a single one of them to ever.........
/edit add
Regardless, are there jobs out there? yep
Thousands and thousands (tens of them) of job seekers to. Statiscally each job that's posted gets around 1,000 applications......
Our head of operations..joined us 3 years ago.....He was unemployed 2 years looking prior to that
Work ethics....(individual choice)
This is the way I see it.....
If someone gave me $10,000 more for my current job/title/position would I work harder....no of course not... I work and do my job the best I can as it is right now, more money won't help me work harder....It might improve my living standards but won't help me do my job better.
By the same token, if someone gave me $10,000 less for my current job/title/position would I work less......no of course not. I work and do my job the best I can regardless of the pay. If I wasn't doing the best job I could (regardless of the pay), I would look to improve or find a different/better job.
Now with that said...all things being equal/same jobs....
If job A paid better than job B, I would take job A, but if that wasn't available, I would take job B and still work like I had job A....
I worked in the private sector full time for 12 years (right after high school-no pension-no benefits) before hitting a crossroad in my life.(looking back, it was a blessing in disguise and I am grateful for the chance I had and choice I made). I had to restart my life, and with the support of my wife decided to go back to school. It wasn't easy with a mortgage and one income but with lots of hard work and some sacrifices we made it through. Coming from a European background (all construction workers in the family-I am the only white collar of the bunch now) I know how hard it can be but hearing about how easy/good some of us got it, is just annoying....
A good friend of mine, was a mutual funds manager for a downtown Toronto firm. He used to get gold coins for Christmas bonuses... He was tired of doing the downtown Toronto thing and decided to try something different. With the support of his family and friends decided to try cooking for a living. 3 years later I find him working as an assistant chef for a golf course making $18/hr. One day he hopes to be head chef maybe even do some catering on the side. Why, because it's want he wants to do. I bet he works just as hard being that assistant chef ($18/hr) than he did when he was making over 6 figures (mutual funds manager).....
Life is great when we still have the ability to make choices, like sucks when we no longer can make our own choices... Like some of my older friends say, it's just nice being on this side (upside) of the grass today.
Nicely said.
Hope you understand, when I said /sarcasm on.../sarcasm off...Translation...Don't really mean it....but there are kernals of truth (soo many strikes during times when)...or I could spend 20 seconds and link about 6 loud "cry" sympathy campaigns from
RNsa
EAs
Drs
Correctional Services
hence the /smiley at the end.
Yep.Quote:
how easy/good some of us got it, is just annoying....
That said and part of the problem today (imo) is that, despite so many warnings (going back to 2008-2011) and even today there are still tons who don't seem to appreciate the impacts "things" (meaning lots of things) are having on lots. Including people in PS.
As I said a week or so ago (here or in another thread). While I don't necessarily agree with his solution, I give Smokey some credit, he atleast.....
We have serious problems here in Ont. Not the least which is what things are doing to "the typical working stiffs"...With so many Boomers now retiring...........and 800,000 Ontarians without GPs.
Gut the MNR further to hire nowhere near enough?
Lay off more Nurses?
Hammer people further, many of whom...
/dead horse
Why?
/points to those that created the mess and those that have had a large helping hand and refuse to really "help out".
Personally don't think cuts (layoffs) to PS are the answer. For starters, the jobs numbers that came out last week show unemployment up everywhere. Nationally its up to 7.3 (seems like that number has been stubborn at 7% since 2008), and many of the full time positions lost have been replaced with Part Time positions. And much more that might be said....
Ottawa we find out next week is ballooning deficit by 30billion
Ontario we know is already in the crapper and taxes and other cost are exploding.
Cant wait to see the latest SS list
;)
When I worked in a long term care facility with 300 PS workers, one person, the administrator was on the sunshine list. 80% earned less than 40 thousand, why because the work force was-is made up of part time workers, who never get 40 hours a week. They do it so that the city does not have to pay the benefits due full time employees. But that also affects the continuity of care for the residents of the facility, ie. different nurse or caretaker every day.
How many times Gord have I donned the other hat and said.........
Funny despite so many real, big problems in Ontario. I seem to recall every school board striking last year. They sure "whine" a lot to..........
/points at 82% growth in the SS list in just the past 6 years.
/Points at DBPs that...cost a fortune.
Maybe, just maybe one day both sides will sit down and be willing to find area's where...
As is, just mention the need to find savings (see also credit downgrades).....and concern about people who gross for arguments sake 75,000 (still way better off than the mean) who don't have pensions and.........
As I pointed out to you, your always fast to say "tax the wealthy more"
Whats wrong with some of them getting less in compensation? Whats good for the gander, not so good for the goose?
Does a person who earns say 150,000 (ms Wynnes definition of rich) really need a tax payer funded DBP? Does a person who earns 500,00 or more need it?
Do people who earn say 100,000 really need tax payers to fund half of their retirements?
Someday maybe politicians and Unions (note theres no party distinction) will actually put the lowly "peons" first whether they are in Private or Public.
Pretty sure if I was a nurse these days earning say 60k, and staring at my pink slip. I'd wonder why Teachers, or why 111,000 people who earn north of 100,000 need a pension paid for by me.
Pretty sure if I was an EA..........who cant get the time of day....
I would have no problem taking back 10% from those on the SS list, but not across the PS spectrum. Not fair to remove 10% from a person who only makes 50% of what it takes to get on the list. I do feel the SS list should be adjusted for inflation from the time it was instituted.
YAY!!!
A concession from someone within PS that there's room for savings (call them cuts if you want) within PS.....Now if only we can get the politicians and Unions on board. ;). All I've ever said (though have harped about Pensions a lot). Personally think that's the answer "for now". Many years ago PS made less than private....didn't sit or go over well. Then to, the less we pay PS, the less they have to spend. Be it for houses, for appliances, for their kids, for dinners at restuarants and tips for wait staff to trips to Sunny Cuba or the links in Scotland...All things that help grow the economy.
Kind of super important these days.
Stick with me G, I'll convert you yet. :)
PS I'm going to have plenty of time for beer soon. It's been a few years.
I survived Rae days..... when I started in LTC with the city in 1981 my position paid a little over 13.00 an hour , when I retired in 2013 that same position ,( although not mine as I changed departments), paid just over 23.00 an hour, with more post secondary education needed to get the job. Do people think that is too much of an increase over 32 years?
My GFs sister is a nurse. How many years in school? believe she gets "around" $35/hr on contract
/looks for that lavish Pension
If we assume 37.5hr/week and a 50week year. Shes in the 60k range. She was recently offered full time. She turned it down. Why? More money to be made on contract, especially if/when OT (something no-one in this shop gets). She doesn't have to go in if she doesn't want to. In short, if she decides to work less hours "this" week, she can.
I have plans for the "future". One is get my AML designation (over and above others). http://www.acams.org/
Given the times. You know, the public being sick of us bankers bilking them, hiding money off shore, tax evasion, money laundering, terrorist financing (how ironic :) ). Cant even take the coarse, without a lot of qualifications and cost 3,000 USD. Fair amount of contract positions out there that pay around $30/hr or $56,000 a year. Gee, you'd think for such an important, specialized field.........;)
Trust me, and you should know me well enough by now. Am not a person who has it "out for PS". That said....
My first job in the mail room?
Annual was $16,000
My first job (part time), was at Can. Tire, $1.35 an hour.
haha. My first was delivering prescriptions for Boots drug store on a bike
if I recall around 1.60/hr :). Times certainly have changed.
neither here nor there really. Hope you realize though that the grass isn't always greener. That University degrees don't always mean 100k year ( an oft cited defense of salaries). In some cases, years and years of designations, highly specialized fields...Well it might earn you 30/hour or 56,000 year.
For the record and ignoring the bonus component of my compensation.
In the 18 years Ive been here. Since 1998.
not 1 penny in OT
My Salary today, when expressed as an average percentage increase per year.
2.2%. In other words 2.2% each year, yours is near 100% (13 to 23)
/looks at numerous who have received tons more, who have better security and Pensions
;)
Don't take that for what it isn't meant to be. It is what it is.
JB..... 13 to 23 is a 76.9% increase, over 32 years works out to about 2.4 % increase a year. According to Stats Can the cost of living average was 3.01 for that 32 years. So those employees, like most workers, were not keeping up with inflation, , but not the crazy increases that many people think. Yes I know that they also have great pensions , but they were negotiated with all three political parties, over the years.
I guess the DB pension you will collect until death and partial transfer to a surviving spouse as well as health benefits don't count? As some keep saying if you felt cheated you could have taken another job outside of PS.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
I know you meant it in jest, but nope don't feel cheated,I could have changed jobs to one that paid more per hour, but unlike some of my friends I looked further down the road, at the long range benefits. I just wish most workers could have the pension PS workers do.
I know G. Am able to do math. My words were "almost" 100%. If I measure over 3Oyrs assuming no significant changes. My base salary might be just over 70%. Last I checked many get "raises" simply for years of service....and raises when contracts get renewed as well (cost of living). Quite often (not always) quite a bit more than inflation.See OPP? Some will get raises now because arbitration....see also some others.
Please don't take offence, because none is intended.
1) "happy" yours increased that much. See my thoughts on PS salaries just a few post up.
2) while not "certain", pretty sure I have many more designations. Have spent many more years. In fact by law I'm required to do certain amounts every 3 years. I'm 52 and still...doesn't earn me 1 more penny, nor do I get "PD" days ;) (see the wink)
3) happy you weren't laid off 2 or 3 times. A number of people I work with, this isn't their first rodeo either.
btw, do remember Nortel? Don't think I've ever heard of any PS being shown the door after 10-30 years and do so with nothing. Life happens and it isn't always fair...
4) are or were you paid overtime? No-one in my shop is.
5) you have a pension.....no one in my shop does.
The "point" is/was, the grass isn't always greener. When I took my present job, the "deal" or contract was.
Base and Bonus. Some years bonuses were very good. Some years "meh". A risk we all took. When our company didn't do so well, neither did we. Looks at your employers. How's the province doing these days?
/checks to see how many willingly accepted 20-30-40% haircuts. can also say our swinging dicks as we call them took massive "cuts".
its kept everyone employed.
Not complaining about it.
Like Fatri said earlier a little sick of the grass is greener stuff. It appeared perhaps I'm wrong "you" we're saying how tough/unfair your career was.
Back to the province.
the god awful mess
the very real problems
300b debt
exploding cost
things like GPs, Nurses, COs,
economic growth of 1.5%
and little guys be they private or public getting hammered.
funny never really see or hear the unions coming to the table and saying.....
Neither do I see big business coming to their employees when they have a great year, handing out extra cash ( to the CEO they do). Nooooo the big banks etc. outsource ,or bring in foreign workers to reap more profits, then tell their workers they are lucky to have a job. CIBC a couple of years ago gave an almost 10 million $ bonus to the CEO. They have 1000 branches in Canada that would work out to $10,000.00 a branch if they were to distribute it amongst the employees. Do you think the economy would be helped more by giving money to each employee of the branches, or that 10 mill going into an offshore account where taxes are avoided?
Are you really that naive? Really understand how little the world works?
first off. I just told you G. Many of us took 40% haircuts. Point me to one person at your company who has. Many don't get OT (gee Gord, if they work hard and have a good year...ok with you if they/we get bonuses. Many don't have pensions either.
We prefer to work under the assumption, that if we do well...you prefer the safety of knowing no matter how things go....do you think we are the only ones???????????????
secondly.
while I do agree the CEOs or swing dinks as we call them. Make stupid amounts. Won't argue perhaps too much.
look at the sunshine list. There are many who make a million or close. Last I checked a CEO of a TD bank is responsible for way, way, way more than a hospital chair or hydro CEO. How many people are employed by TD...how many different divisions, entities, and more...Last I checked the guy in charge of the pan am games for huge dollars for "coming in on budget"
/golf clap.
And God forbid, if TD bank ever blows up the way your company has. If the CEO ever comes under criminal investigations....1) the damage is far greater...2) heads roll...see our company. I think the CEOs of TD while arguably overpaid....are responsible for far far more, and hence....
/looks towards QP
thirdly
if you don't like the way TD bank operates, DONT BANK there. Wish I had that choice.
The world works that way because the 1% say it should. Keep us 99% fighting over the scraps. Why do we put up with it?
You are a lost cause.
Ok Gord heres one for you, I have to be careful for legal reasons.
Our entire company is toast for allegations of things that transpired by a few in Germany. Not one head, not two heads, everyone....
How many "allegations" against your company?
How many abuses and how much waste?
How many COPS, proving guilty of some pretty serious things...Still collecting...
And who is standing in the way of changing that? Unions.
Get a grip Gord.
You whine about the wealthy yet fail to see your bosses, your company, your champions of the working class (most Unions) is really little different. The scales might be a little different but thats semantics.
I have no company , I was and am, a working stiff who happened into a job in the PS. I have no axe to grind, or any hidden agenda, like most on here, I showed up to work each day, did my job, and went home at night. I do not think any union member is part of that 1%. I just don't want people to hate or judge me because of who signed my checks. Because ....there but for the grace of .......
Just back to this for 1 min because I like you.
"don't understand how the world works". Was probably too harsh, but what's meant by that.
who do you think CEOs answer to?
who do you think approves their compensation packages?
and more?
the rest stands as worded.
/sarcasm on
at least those of us don't work with, support or condone waste, abuses and more. We walk the talk G, Our entire company, everyone...
can you say the same?
nope (see the Unions, QP etc)
/sarcasm off.
Anyone that works in the PS or collects a PS pension has no business talking about big business and 1%ers keeing the working man down. The lifestyle that the PS workers have is built on the backs of the taxpayers. The unsustainable PS pay and pension scheme currently in place is the real enemy of the poor and working class not big business or successful people (1%ers). The ever increasing taxes required to pay PS pensions and wages is what will continue to keep the other working people down.
Finally back home.
yep, there but for the grace of God..
Not that I'd want to, as I wouldn't. Straight up. Willing to trade places with me or any of my colleagues?
"walk a mile"
Another of my favorites. No doubt there are many who shall we say harbour quite a bit of animosity towards "ps" these days.
Try their shoes imo.
oh and G, while I know they aren't you. Want to know who sits on our board and calls shots? Who our swinging dinks have to make happy? Who they answer to?
Ontario Teachers.
irony
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/busi...le-investment/
/looks towards QP and um...no nada despite oh so much.
/looks towards Unions and um....
/looks towards cops who collects hundreds of thousands despite...for years despite...
/looks towards the OPP and years investigating their bosses. "No evidence of wrong doing"...oops crap the publics heard the tapes..."we think there might be"
curious how many heads have rolled G
OSFI? Our "OPP"? All over things like stink as they should be, as it should be.
please G. In the future....
and one day hopefully you will understand they are all the same. The "1%" you whine so much about, politicians, your Unions. It's about power and money. A rose by any other name, still stinks.
Lest the above be a little ambiguous.
Over the years, I have been accused of "pension envy", being a "Green Grasser", and more when it comes to certain things pertaining to QP, and "PS"..(think about those words public service). In other threads relating to police misconduct (Sammy Yatim being the most recent) some cops here have told me to get off my high horse because of my stance as on "the Public Trust".
Its not "your money" Gord, or some others. It's the publics. Their hard earned money which they are taxed and which turn goes towards many things. And yes, you do earn your paycheck (or did) and you do work for someone.
Has this admin been good stewards of the public purse? You know the "peons"
How many scandals blowing billions?
How many Investigations now?
how debt is there? Credit downgrades? Call that being good stewards?
Their fiscal policies (which includes budgeting) where they spend how much?
Hydro? selling crown assets
Healthcare?
So much
The Unions?
"bribes" as Werner called them.
How many millions spent electing them?
more I might say
/how many heads have rolled
the G20?
this admin still in power?
More I might say.
How much trust does the public have in this admin
how much trust in the Unions these days.
how much trust in Leo, the OPP?
more I might say.
Those CEOs who earn stupid amounts G? Well they to are responsible not only for tens of thousands of employees and more different types of business than you or I can imagine, are also responsible for the publics money. "Your" money. Whether you deposit $ at branches, take mortgages, invest with them, have insurance through them, much much more.
or are a share holder. Who do they answer to? You.
Think about that and the "millions" they earn
dare say the CEO of TD and the others have done far better jobs in their duties than many of the above.
"We" at least ( I'll leave for readers to interpret who I mean) believe in
the public trust, accountability and much more. Those at QP, those that support them, and more?
Not so much...
remember whose $ it is. Look around at what things are doing to "the little guys".
that link above was from October. This was February
http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/bl...-of-maple-bank
"please"