Parking changes coming to Innisfil Beach Park

Take note if you use the boat launch there.....

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The cost of parking at Innisfil Beach Park is going up. However, residents will continue to be able to park for free with a valid 2016 resident sticker available from the town.

Earlier this week, Innisfil council approved staff's recommendations to increase the parking rates within the park to $5 per hour to a maximum of $35 per day during the summer season (May 1 to Sept. 30), and $25 maximum during the off-season.
In addition, a new charge of $10 for non-resident use of the boat launch is being introduced, and buses coming into the park will be asked for $10 per person, with children under 10 free.
The report also recommended designating parking lots 'D' and 'G' for permanent resident parking only – a total of 120 parking spaces, 22 more than previously provided.

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Not that I use the place but I don't like hearing about things like this. being implemented. Why do so many see the need to make money or restrict the use of our natural resources. What ever happened to sharing the wealth, now more than ever it's explode the wealth/resource.
All about the money.

Wow expensive. Part of the reason I fish and camp on crown land.

Good way to kill the income from tourism.
Note to self: go spend money elsewhere this summer

The cost of maintenance and cleanup of the lots has to be covered somehow. Not many business's in the area to reap rewards of any visitor dollars. I guess people who live there are tired of people showing up for a day near the water , leaving a mess, not spending any money in the area , then taking off back home at the end of the day. Or.... they could be just money hungry local elitists, who want the park for their own personal use. Could be either or both.

All that matter, it's free for the locals. It's going to be a lot more pleasant for them, and if you know someone's that leave there ask for a sticker.

IBP can stuff it, I don't pay that much when I go down town TO for events. That's BS ,I guess we can take our business to Wasaga beach.

I think that is what they want, you not there, or the prices would be more reasonable.

Ya sounds just great (sarcasm) let me add.....................

We all need to limit the amount of people in our community.
That's the way it should be, only local residents should be given easy access to streams, rivers, lakes and parks, all others should pay for this privilege. We should take it one step further and make only local residents pay for healthcare too....

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

The cost of maintenance and cleanup of the lots has to be covered somehow.

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They probably found, when they did their study, that a large percentage of the boat launch users were visitors. It makes sense to pass on a 'User Fee' to help share some of the maintenance costs that the locals are paying thru taxation.

And when they find the non locals give up on the place the revenues will drop to zero as local are free.

It's municipal property and maintenance is covered by municipal taxes. Why should they be on the hook to provide services to non taxpayers for free? The argument about healthcare makes no sense. They pay the same income and sales taxes as everybody else. Healthcare is not a municipal responsibility. I have seen too many free access areas abused and turned into dumps. Someone has to pay to clean them up. Would you want hundreds of cars clogging up your neighbourhood every weekend? I pay to launch my boat every time. No complaints.
i guarantee you the tourism dollar brought in by day users doesn't cover the maintenance, taxes or insurance.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

And when they find the non locals give up on the place the revenues will drop to zero as local are free.

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That used to be my go to place until they started charging big bucks, but as has been mentioned I think that was their goal.

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Originally Posted by terrym

It's municipal property and maintenance is covered by municipal taxes. Why should they be on the hook to provide services to non taxpayers for free? The argument about healthcare makes no sense. They pay the same income and sales taxes as everybody else. Healthcare is not a municipal responsibility. I have seen too many free access areas abused and turned into dumps. Someone has to pay to clean them up. Would you want hundreds of cars clogging up your neighbourhood every weekend? I pay to launch my boat every time. No complaints.
i guarantee you the tourism dollar brought in by day users doesn't cover the maintenance, taxes or insurance.

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I guess my point is. public stuff should be public stuff.....and being public, it should be available to all at the same rate. If there is a problem (garbage or whatever) they should police it but then again, if we just think about money all the time, only the rich would be able to play......

I guess some people have the, me, me syndrome.... "If I can afford it or if it doesn't affect me, its fine".....

Is this not the same mentality as charging tolls for all highways and tolls for entering the city of Toronto....

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Originally Posted by fratri

I guess my point is. public stuff should be public stuff.....and being public, it should be available to all at the same rate. ..

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I think that is the point...the town folk pay for the facility thru their taxes.....visitors do not...Users fees for visitors equals that out...everyone who uses it should contribute on way or the other.

The beach and park in Cobourg are free. For the last 3 or so years people from Toronto have packed the park and beach so bad that you cannot even see grass or sand. they bring BQ's and picnics big enough for an army. When they leave at the end of the day the mess is horrendous. I use to go to IB years ago, but left for the same reason as Cobourg. The days of free have gone sorry to say.

Yup, always easier to put a lock on the gate then it is to educate or force people to be responsible.

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Originally Posted by fratri

Yup, always easier to put a lock on the gate then it is to educate or force people to be responsible.

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That's right, some people can't or don't want to learn without consequences! They visit, don't read signs, don't try to blend in and leave some trash behind. I see that in summer and early fall at the park by the river across my place.

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Originally Posted by seabast

That's right, some people can't or don't want to learn without consequences! They visit, don't read signs, don't try to blend in and leave some trash behind. I see that in summer and early fall at the park by the river across my place.

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Yup, My local fishing spot put up parking signs....No parking between 9pm to 6am....In the summer it doesn't get dark until 10 pm... If we want to stay longer we are forced to park about 500 yds away on a residential street.... Why? because some people don't know how to behave so instead of enforcing current rules/laws...its easier to put up signs to keep most good people out... Only problem now is, the trouble makers just get dropped off....easier to paint us all with the same brush...
I hate paying the price for someone else's mistake...

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Originally Posted by fratri

I guess my point is. public stuff should be public stuff.....and being public, it should be available to all at the same rate. If there is a problem (garbage or whatever) they should police it but then again, if we just think about money all the time, only the rich would be able to play......

I guess some people have the, me, me syndrome.... "If I can afford it or if it doesn't affect me, its fine".....

Is this not the same mentality as charging tolls for all highways and tolls for entering the city of Toronto....

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Municipalities frequently charge non-residents (or prohibit them from using) municipal services.
Try dumping your garbage at a dump in a municipality where you don't live.
Try enrolling your kids in minor sports that are subsidized by a municipality where you don't live.
Try using the library in a municipality where you don't live.
Try getting a police check done in a municipality (non OPP policed) where you don't live.

There's a pretty broad precedent that municipality provided services are not "public" - they are for the residents of the municipality.

Not sure why people are so upset about this. As others have noted maintenance, and more is paid for by municipal taxes. The cost of everything is going up.

Towns are feeling it. Just as much as we are. So councils have a choice. Hammer residents to make up cost for just the increases in Hydro or OPP raises, or find ways to bring in more revenue?

$35 is about what many lots in downtown TO charge for the day. So yes its steep. I wonder what percentage of those using the launch, and lot are people from the GTA heading up there on weekends. When the launch wears down and needs maintenance. Who pays for it?

Do we not complain, that the MNR doesn't get enough funding? I for one do, and I for one want to see everyone who uses resources, start paying and having to buy Outdoors cards. Be they bikers on trails, be they cottagers zipping around Lakes on Skidoos, pleasure craft, be they users of all stripes and not just "us".

Why we think the residents or council there, should look at it any differently.

/ps
When one boater ( of tens of thousands over the spring/summer/fall) heads up there on a Saturday from Toronto. Goes overboard and Rescue services are called in. Who picks up the tab?
Ah yes, the residents.

And we be-grudge them trying to control their cost.???

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Originally Posted by JBen

/ps
When one boater ( of tens of thousands over the spring/summer/fall) heads up there on a Saturday from Toronto. Goes overboard and Rescue services are called in. Who picks up the tab?
Ah yes, the residents.

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JBen..remember that thread we has a few year back on the Lake Scugog incident where some idiot put himself into danger while ice fishing and had to be rescued, so the municipality billed him $5.4K....there were a lot of folks that never got-it, couldn't or wouldn't grasp the concept.

http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...e-ice-fishing/

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Originally Posted by MikePal

JBen..remember that thread we has a few year back on the Lake Scugog incident where some idiot put himself into danger while ice fishing and had to be rescued, so the municipality billed him $5.4K....there were a lot of folks that never got-it, couldn't or wouldn't grasp the concept.

http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...e-ice-fishing/

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I think what must of us didn't understand is why only change the rescue of ice fishermem. Lots of idiot out there that needs to be rescued, including people with self induce health issue....
But on the other hand is wasn't local so I get your vibe too....

So how is it fair that the local council can restrict my access to a public lake. Being a resident of this great country, shouldn't I be able to have some kind of public access to public water. How can I get on the lake if I have to pay to have access to the water. Government should not have the power to make me pay to play.

Where will it end.... You are out of town and want to use the walking trails in my local city...maybe the nonlocals can buy a walking trail pass...
Come to my community to let your dog run in one of our off leash parks, maybe charge a fee to outsiders...
Driving in from outside the city, using our local roads, maybe charge a fee to enter our city and for using our resources...

it can go on and on and on and on....... here is another one....

Maybe I should lobby our local government (Council) to ask non-locals to purchase a non-local fishing license. That way all those out of towners that show up on the weekend, end up paying for taking fish out/away from us locals..... plus all those outsiders constantly are filling our trash cans with garbage, that need to be emptied using my local tax dollars.

It doesn't matter what is said, you can't convince me that paying a big fee for a public ramp use is a good thing or the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by fratri

It doesn't matter what is said, you can't convince me that paying a big fee for a public ramp use is a good thing or the right thing to do.

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Here’s a real scenario; my buddy has a cottage on a ‘private’ lane that is shared with 6 other cottages. Each cottager pays an equal share into the maintenance of the road for grading and snow removal by a local landscape company …except one guy, we’ll call him Dick…as they all do.


Dick doesn’t feel the need to contribute to the road maintenance fund, they have asked repeatedly but he refuses and there is nothing the other folks can really do to make him. So life goes on, and Dick well, he’s still Dick. :)

Sometimes you need to see the bigger picture.

Fatri, first we would want to consider the scales.

If 10,000 people descend on a town (yours) of 100,000 each weekend/month.
If 10,000 people descent on a town (theirs) of 10,000 each weekend/month.

Which town is better able to absorb the cost and maintenance.

Consider just how many weekend warriors leave the GTA each weekend and flood these places (within 2 hours drive). Yeah they bring some tourism dollars in. But a great many don't. How many people flock to a public boat launch, go spend hours on the water, whether they are fishing, or just out booting around, then go straight home?

The public boat launch in Port Perry on Lake Scugog is an utter zoo each weekend.
The public boat launch in Cesarea just 10-15 min further up, is worse, because theres no lot. Drive there on a typical Saturday and theres trucks/trailors parked on the street way up the road.

Instead of us, trying to answer why we think towns and municipalities are justified, why should you (us) feel entitled to use a resource, A boat launch and parking lot, other people paid for and maintain for free?
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Seabast, I would suggest the reason the people who are rescued ice fishing are beginning to pay the cost versus say 2 boaters who go overboard (maybe without PFDs) is due to the warnings that are issued about ice conditions.

If those two boaters go out and get swamped.....stuff happens
If those two boaters go out and go through ice....Should have known better

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Originally Posted by JBen

Fatri, first we would want to consider the scales.

If 10,000 people descend on a town (yours) of 100,000 each weekend/month.
If 10,000 people descent on a town (theirs) of 10,000 each weekend/month.

Which town is better able to absorb the cost and maintenance.

Consider just how many weekend warriors leave the GTA each weekend and flood these places (within 2 hours drive). Yeah they bring some tourism dollars in. But a great many don't. How many people flock to a public boat launch, go spend hours on the water, whether they are fishing, or just out booting around, then go straight home?

The public boat launch in Port Perry on Lake Scugog is an utter zoo each weekend.
The public boat launch in Cesarea just 10-15 min further up, is worse, because theres no lot. Drive there on a typical Saturday and theres trucks/trailors parked on the street way up the road.

Instead of us, trying to answer why we think towns and municipalities are justified, why should you (us) feel entitled to use a resource, A boat launch and parking lot, other people paid for and maintain for free?
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Seabast, I would suggest the reason the people who are rescued ice fishing are beginning to pay the cost versus say 2 boaters who go overboard (maybe without PFDs) is due to the warnings that are issued about ice conditions.

If those two boaters go out and get swamped.....stuff happens
If those two boaters go out and go through ice....Should have known better

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Lots of ways to spin this.....if you think its right, oh well.... I still thinks its wrong.

I don't know if theres a spin at all, Fatri.

Everything cost money these days, and more of it. I don't sit on a small towns council, so have no clue what their budgets are, nor what kind financial shape each town/municipality is in. Consider just this.

Many, many such area's are being crushed by rising OPP cost. Many such are area's are jacking land taxes for residents as a result.
I know Port Perry fairly well. I avoid it like the plague on weekends. Can you guess why? I wonder how many car accidents each summer that require Fire/Police are as a result of "weekend" visitors.....

That town and others are providing a nice, convenient service for you. Its something that cost them money. First to build, then to maintain. The more it gets used, the more maintenance it's going to require.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Here’s a real scenario; my buddy has a cottage on a ‘private’ lane that is shared with 6 other cottages. Each cottager pays an equal share into the maintenance of the road for grading and snow removal by a local landscape company …except one guy, we’ll call him Dick…as they all do.


Dick doesn’t feel the need to contribute to the road maintenance fund, they have asked repeatedly but he refuses and there is nothing the other folks can really do to make him. So life goes on, and Dick well, he’s still Dick. :)

Sometimes you need to see the bigger picture.

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Yeh you do get people like that,had a guy hunt at my place for a few years and he did exactly the same as Dick.Worse part is that he was at the end of the laneway and really needed the other 10 people to do the road.He did not see it that way,insisted on seeing bills for repairs and so forth.Fortunately they ended up selling and leaving the same year he left my camp.Not missed by anyone.

P.S. As a footnote,in Australia they now charge to park at almost all their beaches and parks,they also charge to park AT SHOPPING MALLS.This will be the wave of the future.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Yeh you do get people like that,had a guy hunt at my place for a few years and he did exactly the same as Dick.Worse part is that he was at the end of the laneway and really needed the other 10 people to do the road.He did not see it that way,insisted on seeing bills for repairs and so forth.Fortunately they ended up selling and leaving the same year he left my camp.Not missed by anyone.

P.S. As a footnote,in Australia they now charge to park at almost all their beaches and parks,they also charge to park AT SHOPPING MALLS.This will be the wave of the future.

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Especially if we are so willing to accept it as the norm....

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Originally Posted by fratri

Especially if we are so willing to accept it as the norm....

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Well I will accept it as the norm if it is reasonable and IMHO its reasonable.

I,am a little less accepting of taxpayers money building a highway and then some government sells it off at a discount price to a private company and we get hosed for toll fees,but that is another story.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well I will accept it as the norm if it is reasonable and IMHO its reasonable.

I,am a little less accepting of taxpayers money building a highway and then some government sells it off at a discount price to a private company and we get hosed for toll fees,but that is another story.

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The 407 was leased. The Province still not only owns it buts has lease revenue from it.

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Originally Posted by fratri

Especially if we are so willing to accept it as the norm....

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I think you'll find the 'norm', the days of 'free' services, are gone as the municipalities wrestle with holding the line on tax increases. Residents are tax weary and can't afford the ever increasing costs required to provide the services to the community. More and more you are seeing users fees being used to recoup the costs.

May not be what you remember as being the norm...but it is the norm now.

increased Costs; ...add 4 new Bylaw enforcement officers to the park on a weekend to control the chaos...

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Tougher bylaw enforcement is needed to control parking problems and unruly visitors to Innisfil Beach Park this summer, Mayor Gord Wauchope says.

“We have to let people know the town is not going to fool around this year,” Wauchope told council Wednesday. “Deterrence is the big thing. This is not a place to come and tear everything up and destroy things.”

Four more bylaw officers will patrol the Alcona park and surrounding streets this summer, bringing the total to six.

Increased enforcement can’t come soon enough for John Stewart who told council Wednesday the town didn’t handle problems well last year.

“The filth that you see on Mondays — human excrement, syringes, liquor bottles,” Stewart said. “The park that we love, that is the jewel of Alcona, is going to be ruined.”
Stewart, who lives on Lakelands Avenue near the park, said had to deal with many rude visitors last summer.

http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/650...rk-mayor-says/

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Originally Posted by JBen

I don't know if theres a spin at all, Fatri.

Everything cost money these days, and more of it. I don't sit on a small towns council, so have no clue what their budgets are, nor what kind financial shape each town/municipality is in. Consider just this.

Many, many such area's are being crushed by rising OPP cost. Many such are area's are jacking land taxes for residents as a result.
I know Port Perry fairly well. I avoid it like the plague on weekends. Can you guess why? I wonder how many car accidents each summer that require Fire/Police are as a result of "weekend" visitors.....

That town and others are providing a nice, convenient service for you. Its something that cost them money. First to build, then to maintain. The more it gets used, the more maintenance it's going to require.

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The other thing is why do boaters think that they are entitled to have taxpayers , most of which have never even seen a boat launch let alone dream of owning a boat supply them with a nice launch? There are private boat ramps and marinas on most lakes so there is access.
As the tax burden increases, the Hydro rates increase everybody including municipalities have to either increase revenues or cut services. Can't have it both ways. When the Carbon taxes kick in you can expect the cost of everything to jump 5%.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Seabast, I would suggest the reason the people who are rescued ice fishing are beginning to pay the cost versus say 2 boaters who go overboard (maybe without PFDs) is due to the warnings that are issued about ice conditions.

If those two boaters go out and get swamped.....stuff happens
If those two boaters go out and go through ice....Should have known better

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What about a guy who drive over the speed limit..... Should have known better but doens't have to pay
What about a guy that eat a pound of bacon and smoke a pack a day...... Should have known better but doens't have to pay
And so on ....... Lots of idiots that need to be rescued every-day and that don't have to pay for it!!!
Somehow, ice fishing is view differently and I don't like it....

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Originally Posted by seabast

Somehow, ice fishing is view differently and I don't like it....

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I don't see any comments from you on the thread below....who do you think should pay to clean that up ?

http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...n-Ottawa-River

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I don't comments from you on the thread below....who do you think should pay to clean that up ?

http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...n-Ottawa-River

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Who ever put it there (just like trailers on crown land, stolen car in parking lots and so on.....) and if no one else wants to do it, put a buoy and it will become a great fish habitat. :moose:

But I don't understand what it has to do with an ice fisherman paying for his resue! What about skiers, snowmobilers, .....?

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Originally Posted by seabast

Who ever put it there (just like trailers on crown land, stolen car in parking lots and so on.....) and if no one else wants to do it, put a buoy and it will become a great fish habitat. :moose:

But I don't understand what it has to do with an ice fisherman paying for his resue! What about skiers, snowmobilers, .....?

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There is an unspoken "level" of responsibility and ice fisherman rate way lower that skiers for example. If a skier goes off track and dies in an avalanche they will spend hundreds of thousands on rescue/recovery and I seriously doubt they bill the estate or family. If an ice fisherman needs rescue the bill is in the mail immediately it seems. You see progressives see skiing as an activity practiced by their peers, especially Western Mountain trips. Ice fisherman are red necks with snowmobiles and drink beer on the ice instead of red wine from a 4 star lodge.

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Originally Posted by seabast

What about skiers, snowmobilers, .....?

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Happening more and more out in BC...$100,000 in bills to some folk...

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...-rescue-in-b-c

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Originally Posted by terrym

The 407 was leased. The Province still not only owns it buts has lease revenue from it.

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Great, how much are we all gettin from this lease revenue.LOL

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

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Great, how much are we all gettin from this lease revenue.LOL

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Quite a bit more than the money we lose every year from selling electricity at a loss from Wynne's GEA scandal. And I have a choice "not" to use the 407. Can't opt out of using electricity. But you're ok with selling Hydro at a loss right? Step up your game Gilroy, you make it too easy.

Well if that's what Innifail wants to charge, they won't have to reserve a spot for me.

What many are missing here is the "our taxes pay for it" mentality doesn't hold water.
Most places everyone lives also has taxes which pay for their local parks to an equal extent.
But guess what? Many of these places use money from higher governments to also pay for these services. Grants and services for things like improvements to parks. So no not just the locals are paying but everyone is also contributing.
How much do the locals directly pay for the stocking of fish in Simcoe? But they are doing everything the can to keep the lake to themselves.
I'd have no problem to cut off all provincial & federal funding for the lake area and let the locals fund it them selves if they want to keep it to themselves.
Where I live (and most on this forum also) parking at public owned places or use of parks are either free for all or a set price for all. No two tiered system of free for residents but non residents bend over.
I'd sure like to see a resident of Innisfil ( or another area around Lake Simcoe with uses a two tier fee schedule for use of parking & parks) go to Toronto for an appointment and be confronted with Toronto residents get free parking but non residents pay 10 times the current rates to make up for lost revenues now not being paid by residents.

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Originally Posted by fratri

Not that I use the place but I don't like hearing about things like this. being implemented. Why do so many see the need to make money or restrict the use of our natural resources. What ever happened to sharing the wealth, now more than ever it's explode the wealth/resource.
All about the money.

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I dont think it has anything to do with natural resources. I think it has everything to do with various levels of government being fiscally irresponsible and needing to make up budget shortcomings by charging for and taxing everything they can think of.

Actually Orleans (Part of Ottawa) actually wanted to look at the idea of charging non residents to use their roads.

But I agree with you these towns if they want to keep their parks to themselves they should have to give up all subsidies and any other government monies used to sustain them.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

What many are missing here is the "our taxes pay for it" mentality doesn't hold water.
Most places everyone lives also has taxes which pay for their local parks to an equal extent.
But guess what? Many of these places use money from higher governments to also pay for these services. Grants and services for things like improvements to parks. So no not just the locals are paying but everyone is also contributing.
How much do the locals directly pay for the stocking of fish in Simcoe? But they are doing everything the can to keep the lake to themselves.
I'd have no problem to cut off all provincial & federal funding for the lake area and let the locals fund it them selves if they want to keep it to themselves.
Where I live (and most on this forum also) parking at public owned places or use of parks are either free for all or a set price for all. No two tiered system of free for residents but non residents bend over.
I'd sure like to see a resident of Innisfil ( or another area around Lake Simcoe with uses a two tier fee schedule for use of parking & parks) go to Toronto for an appointment and be confronted with Toronto residents get free parking but non residents pay 10 times the current rates to make up for lost revenues now not being paid by residents.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

What many are missing here is the "our taxes pay for it" mentality doesn't hold water.
Most places everyone lives also has taxes which pay for their local parks to an equal extent.
But guess what? Many of these places use money from higher governments to also pay for these services. Grants and services for things like improvements to parks. So no not just the locals are paying but everyone is also contributing.
How much do the locals directly pay for the stocking of fish in Simcoe? But they are doing everything the can to keep the lake to themselves.

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The issue has nothing to do with restricting access to the Lake, visitors to the area have many ways to get onto the lake and enjoy it. Fish away.

The issue is purely a recovery tool to recoup the cost of the 'Road and Grounds' crews and By-Law enforcement officers that are required to keep the launches maintained, clean up the park and keep it safe. That cost comes directly out of the City's working budget, that is paid for by the locals property taxes. (not Fed or Provincial)

If they have found that 30% the park is being used by visitors, people who don't contribute directly to the City coffers, why is it wrong to ask them to pay a user fee ?

Like Werner said earlier (post #20) a two tiered system exists in almost every township when it comes to the use of facilities. It equals out the cost between the local property tax payers and people from outside the area.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The issue has nothing to do with restricting access to the Lake, visitors to the area have many ways to get onto the lake and enjoy it. Fish away.

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If you can't park there or can't afford to park there than yes it does restrict access. Residents only parking or residents free but non residents pay big $'s is restrictive.

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Like Werner said earlier (post #20) a two tiered system exists in almost every township when it comes to the use of facilities. It equals out the cost between the local property tax payers and people from outside the area.

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We are not talking about garbage collection but parking on roads and use of public parks. In that respect no, very few place impose a two tiered system for these things. Places that do are mostly around Lake Simcoe or other lakeside area's where the local's try to keep the area to themselves.
I never seen it anywhere near where I live.

We all pay Federal taxes.
Do non residents pay more for tags/liscences?
Do we pay more when we go to another province?

Does anyone who has a problem with this likewise have a problem with a resident of say New Brunswick paying more for a deer, bear tag or fishing license? Cant have it both ways.
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Not really the issue (imo anyways), but rather just how hammered small towns or hamlets like this get on weekends. The drain and strain that has to put on their finances and why shouldn't we help pay for things.

If we want to point fingers at something and blame something. Blame the millions of GTAers, who every weekend leave the city to go frolic in the outdoors, and descend on places like this, but pay very little.

Has anyone ever visited Sibbald Park on a Weekend? My aunt lives just down the road from the entrance.
Its INSANE.
Ive personally witnessed car backed up.......so far.......
Ive personally witnessed people carrying coolers and beach gear down the road...and they still aren't in the park. Then have to carry crap another km or so. To get to the beach/boat launch there. Not sure if they ever dredged the boat launch as over the years its fallen apart.
Who pays for that?

When the road in needs maintenance or has to be repaved...
Who pays for that?

Most weekends they have to cops at the gate, if its a sunny hot Sunday......Its beyond insane.
Who pays for that.

You guys are complaining about the town decision when you should be complaining about the users that screwed it up for everyone by acting like trash.... How long is it going to take for you to understand there are consequences for others action?

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

If you can't park there or can't afford to park there than yes it does restrict access. Residents only parking or residents free but non residents pay big $'s is restrictive.

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only in the sense that it requires a user fee (property tax or cash)..

I'm curious as to why you think that a maintained facility should be free?

$35 to park and an extra $10 for the ramp...$45 bucks for a days fishing.....I don't think so, that's just ridiculous

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I'm curious as to why you think that a maintained facility should be free?

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Never said it should be free.
Just the same fee for everyone.
Only in some of these lake communities do they think a two tiered system is fair for parks & parking.
Doesn't happen where I live for parks or parking.
If it's free it's free for everyone non residents included.
If there is a fee it's the same fee for everyone residents included.
Even in Toronto for parking, non residents pay the same fees as residents for city controlled parking.
Same applies to their parks.
People from these lake communities have no problem paying the same fees as the locals when they are in other communities but won't extend the same privilege to outsiders in their community.
Never heard anyone from these lake side communities say " I'm from out of town so it's only far I pay double for parking" than voluntarily dig into their pocket and hand over the extra cash.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

Never said it should be free.
Just the same fee for everyone.
Only in some of these lake communities do they think a two tiered system is fair for parks & parking.
Doesn't happen where I live for parks or parking.
If it's free it's free for everyone non residents included.
If there is a fee it's the same fee for everyone residents included.
Even in Toronto for parking, non residents pay the same fees as residents for city controlled parking.
Same applies to their parks.
People from these lake communities have no problem paying the same fees as the locals when they are in other communities but won't extend the same privilege to outsiders in their community.
Never heard anyone from these lake side communities say " I'm from out of town so it's only far I pay double for parking" than voluntarily dig into their pocket and hand over the extra cash.

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Oro line 9 is free for locals but not for visitors, and there are a lot of places like that around Simcoe. Makes a lot of sense for everyone but the ones that have to pay, go figure!?!

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

If there is a fee it's the same fee for everyone residents included.

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Well there you go...the residents pay their share in the form of property taxes and visitors pair their equal share in cash at the gate....it's what's been said all along...

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Well there you go...the residents pay their share in the form of property taxes and visitors pair their equal share in cash at the gate....it's what's been said all along...

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Completely opposite what I said.
I and everyone else pay taxes in our communities but we don't feel the need to extract a pound of flesh from non residents.
Just because you pay local taxes makes you feel you deserve free use of parks & privileged parking but non residents should bend over.
I'll be willing to bet when you go to other communities you are glad you get the same price as residents.
Have you ever complained about being treated fairly?
I surely doubt it.
Hypocritical at best.

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Originally Posted by OUTCAST

$35 to park and an extra $10 for the ramp...$45 bucks for a days fishing.....I don't think so, that's just ridiculous

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Knock on some doors and offer them $20 to park in their driveway for the day.

As for me, I'll be staying north and fishing lakes where the parking is free

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I think that is the point...the town folk pay for the facility thru their taxes.....visitors do not...Users fees for visitors equals that out...everyone who uses it should contribute on way or the other.

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Then why are all three boat launches free in the municipality I pay my cottage taxes to? Time to talk to council I think!!!

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Originally Posted by DanO

Then why are all three boat launches free in the municipality I pay my cottage taxes to? Time to talk to council I think!!!

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And when you do please pass on from us non residents they are setting a good example to be followed.
Your community like mine doesn't feel the need to screw over non residents but actually value them coming to our community.

The municipalities around Simcoe have been trying to close the accesses for years. In the winter it's parking tickets for dubious reasons or limited parking lots that hold only a few cars. Now they're going to price the non-residents out of lake usage. They don't howl about the stocking program that all tax payers contribute to or the improved sewage treatment plants paid for by provincial taxpayers. We already pay to use the lake in our provincial taxes.

It's a tax grab and you can spin it anyway you like it! Careful what you wish for though ... other municipalities are watching and what comes around goes around! Those other free launches won't be free for much longer and you can thank the Innnisfil government for starting the ball rolling.

Weirne had great examples of two tier costing. Is it a good thing to have a discriminatory system? Anybody remember when we didn't have two tier costs? I do.

DanO good post.
Only thing I'd like to add, although Innisfil is surely a big part of the equation they already are far from not alone. Other Lake Simcoe municipalities & some from other places also are playing the same game.

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Originally Posted by blasted_saber

As for me, I'll be staying north and fishing lakes where the parking is free

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I don't mean to rub salt in the wound (ok, maybe a little:tongue:) but this thread sure gives me a chuckle. Go fishing and pay for parking and boat launch? The heck you say? Ha Ha Ha...... Never heard of such nonsense?

Where we fish we almost always pay to park & launch.
The problem for me is two fold.
Residents free but non resident pay though the roof.
Completely out to lunch rates designed to keep the area for residents only on a lake which receives lots of money from higher government sources.
IBP looking for $45 to launch & park a boat & trailer (residents free) compared to where we launch on Lake Erie for $10 which includes parking, assitance at the launch and a ride back and forth from your parking spot to your boat. Great service which also expedites faster turnaround at the launch site. In turn they launch & recover boats faster and keep the line ups moving quite quickly. Equals more money for them.

This the "only" part I'm not sure of Woodsman

$35-45 is steep. But not knowing their finances, not knowing the amount of traffic it receives and or maintenance required, hard to say.

/devils advocate

"They don't howl about the stocking program that all tax payers contribute to or the improved sewage treatment plants paid for by provincial taxpayers. We already pay to use the lake in our provincial taxes."

Imo, this takes train of thought it to another level.
Yep everyone already pays taxes. I hope no-one then ever complains again about the lack of funding for the MNRF. Or non angling residents not paying their fair share. After all everyone does in fact contribute, we anglers and hunters just contribute more, a lot more. Or hatcheries closing, or lack of enforcement, especially on the waters.
****

Of coarse it's a tax grab, of that there's no doubt. Pay as you play type. Get used to it, it's the future and really the right way to do things.

Hmmmm. Seems to me most people here gripe about provincial taxes, and subsidizing the GTA. Aren't you/we tired of being heavily taxed so people in the GTA can ride the TTC and far more (road improvements and more)....About time (IMO) the GTA starts paying their fair share. Especially user groups who leave the city each weekend and descend on small towns. See Ms Wynne bringing in road tolls around the GTA.

True cottagers pay land taxes to the appropriate municipality. What about non cottagers, non anglers who pay next to nothing. Heck considering how much boat traffic there is in the Kawarthas, Muskoka's, polluting the waters, or adding phosphates. The lack of Police and COs on the Lakes, or the emergency calls and SAR. Maybe it's about time they to start chipping in a little more.....

By all means, go to Algonquin Park on any Saturday. Count the number of busses, throngs of people. Thats just scratching the surface..........

Last edit.
reality. Ontario is large, there are roughly 13 million people (how many Outdoors cards, only a fraction) Roughly half that resides in the GTA. Most of whom know little about the outdoors, nature, wildlife, and more, nor do they seem to care. And millions of them vacate the city every weekend and descend on their playgrounds and pay next to nothing. Leaving it to residents to clean up after them, pay for most of it, and more.

There is always another side to the story, so I looked back and see what may have prompted this action.....and yes last year the residents of Innisfil decided to take action to get control of the beach back from unruly visitors. Seem to be a sticking point for many years.

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So yesterday, Picher and several other residents decided to “take back the beach” by gathering at the park.
“The area has just been ignored, the issues been ignored for years and years. Every single long weekend or weekend in the summer the beach is overrun with people leaving messes,” he said. “The side streets are littered with cars, there’s just so many issues that town council has just overlooked.”
Residents started arriving early in the morning and parked their cars in lot D, which is open to everyone and is closest to the water.
By 8:30 a.m. Pitcher estimated that about 60 cars with resident permits had already arrived, and several more continued to stream in.
Al Schank, who has lived in Innisfil for almost 30 years, was one of the residents who was at the event.
“It’s called tourism, people from the GTA coming up here, it’s cheap to come here,” he said “Not that I’m not in favour of tourism but there is a limit to what this park can facilitate, and we are way above that.”
Others were angry with recent changes at the boat launch.
“There used to be 22 spots,” said Lorrie Richardson “Now they only have 10.”
While there is a second boat launch parking lot, it’s quite a distance from the launch.
And she noted there is a lot of chaos on the dock.
Other residents commented that they have started paying to use private marinas to get their boats in the water, instead of coming to IBP.
“I haven’t been in the water once this year, because you have to get up early to get a spot,” said Charlene Szabo.
Pitcher said this is not about residents versus visitors. He believes there can be a balance.
“They need to start controlling the gate, there’s a lot of people that will come in, drop off the family, park on the side street and use the beach for free,” he said. “And they aren’t kicking in a cent to clean up.”
He also said there can be benefits to having so many visitors, but that the town could do a better job to manage it.

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some more background from last Sept...http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/583...il-beach-park/

It sounds like the folks that pay for the facilitates thru their municipal taxes were unable to even use the beaches due to so many visitors coming into town on the weekends. Hardly fair.

So in response, they got their town council involved. The result is to spend money on better policing and by-law enforcement so they could take back control of the beach and by charging user fees for non-residents re-coup those costs. Sounds prudent.

May not make visitors to happy, but I understand where they are coming from. If you still think that it should be free, with all the efforts they are taking to control access to the beach for everyone, then I guess you will be looking to go somewhere else this year.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

Never said it should be free.
Just the same fee for everyone.
Only in some of these lake communities do they think a two tiered system is fair for parks & parking.
Doesn't happen where I live for parks or parking.
If it's free it's free for everyone non residents included.
If there is a fee it's the same fee for everyone residents included.
Even in Toronto for parking, non residents pay the same fees as residents for city controlled parking.
Same applies to their parks.
People from these lake communities have no problem paying the same fees as the locals when they are in other communities but won't extend the same privilege to outsiders in their community.
Never heard anyone from these lake side communities say " I'm from out of town so it's only far I pay double for parking" than voluntarily dig into their pocket and hand over the extra cash.

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In Toronto you can buy a parking permit for the street you live on for between 15-52 dollars. This allows you to park overnight on " your " street without getting a ticket. If you don't live on the street no permit equals ticket. Everyone in Toronto paid for that street and pays for maintenance on that street.
People that pay 11,000.00 in property tax want to be able to park in front of their house.
Same as people in lake Simcoe communities. They pay the taxes they make the rules.

Not that it's really pertinent, but people in Toronto proper have the lowest mill rates (land taxes) in the province, yet receive the most services.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Not that it's really pertinent, but people in Toronto proper have the lowest mill rates (land taxes) in the province, yet receive the most services.

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True .... And I agree not pertinent.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Not that it's really pertinent, but people in Toronto proper have the lowest mill rates (land taxes) in the province, yet receive the most services.

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That would be, I suspect, due to population density...mil rates are adjusted to ensure that townships have enough operating capital. A township with a population of 20K would need more per household than a city of 5 million.

There are single apartment buildings in Toronto that have a larger population than the entire town of Kemptville. :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

That would be, I suspect, due to population density...mil rates are adjusted to ensure that townships have enough operating capital. A township with a population of 20K would need more per household than a city of 5 million.

There are single apartment buildings in Toronto that have a larger population than the entire town of Kemptville. :)

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That and a desire for politicians to get re elected.

It's all free down my way also and thats were I'll be stayin, ramps are no more than $10 bucks around here

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

And when you do please pass on from us non residents they are setting a good example to be followed.
Your community like mine doesn't feel the need to screw over non residents but actually value them coming to our community.

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Simcoe ppl are a diff breed, they truely don't want non residents there

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Originally Posted by OUTCAST

Simcoe ppl are a diff breed, they truely don't want non residents there

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The irony is that they are mostly commuters...Simcoe is a bedroom community for those who work in the city and take advantage of the infrastructure there to make a living.

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Originally Posted by stragglelake

In Toronto you can buy a parking permit for the street you live on for between 15-52 dollars. This allows you to park overnight on " your " street without getting a ticket. If you don't live on the street no permit equals ticket. Everyone in Toronto paid for that street and pays for maintenance on that street.
People that pay 11,000.00 in property tax want to be able to park in front of their house.
Same as people in lake Simcoe communities. They pay the taxes they make the rules.

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Now how about telling the whole story here instead of placing a slant on it in an attempt to prove your point.
This is not generally available to most Toronto residents as you seem to make it appear.
These permits are only available in specified areas where parking is not available or every limited at their residences.
Compared to Innisfil, Toronto is quite old. Some area's were developed before the use of cars as we know today. Most if not all homes didn't have a car depending on exactly when the area was developed. Not much need for driveways in 1880's for example. Row housing was common.
As I seen this same lame excuse on another board I suspect you go by a completely different username there.

BTW: This time I see you refrained from posting the link to the law because it shot you in the foot on the other forum.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The irony is that they are mostly commuters...Simcoe is a bedroom community for those who work in the city and take advantage of the infrastructure there to make a living.

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This is very true.
They have no problem taking advantage of the employment opportunities in Toronto and using Toronto streets, ect without contributing beyond the common user fees equally charged to Toronto residents.
But when those Toronto residents want to use their community they sure don't want to extend the same or similar privilege.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

Now how about telling the whole story here instead of placing a slant on it in an attempt to prove your point.
This is not generally available to most Toronto residents as you seem to make it appear.
These permits are only available in specified areas where parking is not available or every limited at their residences.
Compared to Innisfil, Toronto is quite old. Some area's were developed before the use of cars as we know today. Most if not all homes didn't have a car depending on exactly when the area was developed. Not much need for driveways in 1880's for example. Row housing was common.
As I seen this same lame excuse on another board I suspect you go by a completely different username there.

BTW: This time I see you refrained from posting the link to the law because it shot you in the foot on the other forum.

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Wow !!!
Are you alright ?!?!
I am not on another board under another name.
I did not place a " slant" on it.
I merely pointed out a fact. If someone else happened to do the same thing, maybe it's because we're accurate and maybe your poor response to it is because your wrong and can't get over it.

So stragglelake you are saying any resident of Toronto can purchase this permit to park in front of their home in a similar fashion that all residents of Innisfil get a free parking pass for IBP?
Are you comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges.
If your not on the other forum you are equally as deceptive or misinformed as the other person.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The irony is that they are mostly commuters...Simcoe is a bedroom community for those who work in the city and take advantage of the infrastructure there to make a living.

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How true, anyone on LSO ( Lake Simcoe Outdoors ) ? if your not part of the board community/ group of locals then your shuned, I've been kicked off there twice for trying to stand up for a poster after they lamb basted him for asking a question about were to park, I used to like that board, even the moderators are arrogant, half of them don't even fish or know how to fish after reading some of there techniques and answer to some fishing related questions,. Notice how I'm changing this subject cause this tread is being beaten to death with back and forth replies.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

So stragglelake you are saying any resident of Toronto can purchase this permit to park in front of their home in a similar fashion that all residents of Innisfil get a free parking pass for IBP?
Are you comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges.
If your not on the other forum you are equally as deceptive or misinformed as the other person.

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No. I am not saying that, and I did not say that.
You mentioned parking in Toronto so I used it as an example.
To be 100% clear there is not permit parking on all streets in Toronto. The actual number of streets that allow permit parking is 1584 and they are working on expanding it.
I'm not sure if you understand how municipal politics work and maybe that's where the lack of clarity is stemming from.

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Originally Posted by stragglelake

I'm not sure if you understand how municipal politics work and maybe that's where the lack of clarity is stemming from.

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Oh I am quite aware on how municipal politics work and can recognize a bad example of local politics when I see it.

True Mike. But everyone in the 905 knows ridiculous low it is. Don't forget, the higher the population, the more services are required. Be they fire/police, be it mail delivery (still get to the door) be it road widening or maintenance or A to Z. What did Rob Ford campaign on? They don't pay anywhere near enough.

This isn't really pertinent, and is certainly over simplified but is indicative. The province is 300b in debt. The GTA with 50% of the pop, the rest of Ontario, the other 50%. Do you think the residents of TO pay their fair share? Who do you think has benefitted the most from all that debt? Rural or Northern Ont?

Look at Hospitals. The Prov is currently cutting funding to areas where pop growth is small or reversing, and using that money to fund hospitals in the GTA.....

Lets look at pollution and Carbon Taxes. Who by far is the dirtiest? Yet, we all going to pay the same .04
per litre.

Look at towns like Innesfil.

Just to highlight how user fees are becoming more common place..here's a story that will make you cringe if you want to go boating in some of these lakes;

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The fee to use a powerboat with a hefty motor in Val-des-Monts lakes with public docks has jumped to a whopping $120 per day — except for residents of the municipality, who are only subject to a $60 fee per year.

The cost used to be $150 per season for non-residents to launch boats with motors that are more than 100 horsepower, while it was free for residents.

Val-des-Monts Coun. Claude Bergeron said the change in fees comes after public consultations.

The new fees, which vary depending on the size of the motor, fall in line with other municipalities, he said.

Bergeron said the move was not meant to keep those who don't live in Val-des-Monts off the municipality's more than 120 lakes. Only Lake McGregor and Lake Saint-Pierre have public docks.

"We're not chasing them away, we're aiming to control boating to protect the water quality of our lakes for future generations," he said, adding that residents complained they could barely use lakes with public docks on weekends because there were too many boats.

Bergeron emphasized that it's free for everyone to use non-motorized boats, and minimal for powerboats that use 10 horsepower or less ($5 annually for residents, $10 per day for non-residents).

Right way to tackle problem?

Brian Hepburn said weekends bring in lots of boaters to Lake McGregor, which can be unsafe. The $60 per year fee is not ideal, but he's willing to pay it for a better boating experience.

"As a cottager on the lake, I'm happy because I think it will reduce some of the traffic," he said.

Val-des-Monts resident Simon Germain supports banning access to big boats with hefty motors but doesn't feel "exorbitant prices" is the right move — especially charging residents.

The municipality had "good intentions" to protect the lakes, added Val-des-Monts resident Luc Lanoix, but he wondered if it would limit the number of tourists and boaters who aren't well-off financially.

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People need to realize that the role of government is to provide basic and necessary services. So pointing fingers and blaming the guy from the city really is only self serving. Everybody pays sales taxes and income taxes and more and more user fees. The government can't handle the basic necessities without bankrupting our children. Not sure nice boat launches should be a priority for what is mostly borrowed money. I'm not anti-boat. I have owned one for 25 years. I pay to store it and launch it.

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Originally Posted by terrym

People need to realize that the role of government is to provide basic and necessary services. So pointing fingers and blaming the guy from the city really is only self serving. Everybody pays sales taxes and income taxes and more and more user fees. The government can't handle the basic necessities without bankrupting our children. Not sure nice boat launches should be a priority for what is mostly borrowed money. I'm not anti-boat. I have owned one for 25 years. I pay to store it and launch it.

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That's true.
People of innisville pay taxes for that park and everyone in Ontario pays taxes and that means they can use provincial parks. People need to know where there tax money goes before they complain how it's used.

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Originally Posted by OUTCAST

$35 to park and an extra $10 for the ramp...$45 bucks for a days fishing.....I don't think so, that's just ridiculous

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I absolutely agree. If there such a serious problem with the boat launch being abused and a huge bone of contention with the locals,the logical solution is to shut it down,bulldoze it and build a park. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I absolutely agree. If there such a serious problem with the boat launch being abused and a huge bone of contention with the locals,the logical solution is to shut it down,bulldoze it and build a park. Problem solved.

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Innisfil Beach "Park", is a park!
The issue aint the boat launch but the over population abusing the park.
Increasing the cost of parking will help get ride of it or pay for the clean up.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Quite a bit more than the money we lose every year from selling electricity at a loss from Wynne's GEA scandal. And I have a choice "not" to use the 407. Can't opt out of using electricity. But you're ok with selling Hydro at a loss right? Step up your game Gilroy, you make it too easy.

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I just checked "[COLOR=#252525]The route is operated privately under a 99-year lease[COLOR=#252525]agreement with the provincial government. The lease was sold in 1998 for approximately C$[COLOR=#252525]3.1 billion to a consortium of Canadian and Spanish investors operating under the name 407 International Inc."

The extension is owned by the goverment.