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Bear attacks are seldom but once in a while they do happen.
I hunt partridge with my .22 but see traces of black bear activity.
Any of you have some suggestions for a happy medium rifle caliber which I can hunt partridge with while perhaps dissuade a black bear's curiosity or even attack without having to change ammo midway?
I'm not hunting bears but do wish to be able to protect myself against them with the rifle.
Get yourself an auxillary cartridge which will allow you to shoot .32 s&w or .32 acp pistol ammo in a .30 cal rifle. Take your pick of .30-30, .308, .30-06 - whatever you've got in your cabinet.
One of those Savage 24 camper guns with a .22 on top and shotgun under would serve you well. You can buy a 20g or 12g and use slugs for bear and the .22 for popping grouse.
I have a Springfield arms M6 Scout
22 hornet and .410 combo.
Love that gun. Breaks apart with one pin as well and fits in a knapsack
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Also comes 22LR / 410
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Agree with above that combo guns are best option. . .
Worse comes to worse could use a .410 to hunt Partridge and keep a couple .410 slugs in your pocket for just in case
As I spend a lot of time in the bush spring threw winter. I carry a Ithaca 20 gage side by side, slug on one side bird shot on the other. this is my all around bush gun for scouting and working in the woods. I have never had to fire one shot in over twenty years to persuade a bear or moose to leave me alone. I make lots of noise to give them warning that i am around, unless I am hunting and then I have the proper rifle or shot gun for the task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stragglelake
This is a cool gun. Never seen it before...now i have to find a used one. Its an addiction!
Just remember that when bear or any big game season is open, if you don't have a bear or the right big game tags, you can not carry slugs or shot over #2 ( in lead) or BBB (in steel).
I was going to mention that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
I think it includes the 22hornet as its a centre fire. But I'm not sure.
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Buy bear spray and keep it on you. More effective than spraying bullets and safer.
What about just hunting with a shotgun and birdshot? Fully legal and enough power at close range to persuade a bear to leave you alone.
I understand Snowwalker thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
But if it's between: loosing and arm or my life for being tortured by an attacking bear and spending time in Jail.. I'll take jail :)
If your going to shoot it then 3030 power or more.
Thank you all for your input.
Combos seems great, a little more work but great, if memory serves.. I may actually know a friend's father that may have one.
werner.reiche I spent pretty much all day net browsing and there's lots to see, thanks for those great options!
Snowwalker Thanks for reminding me of that. I understand why that law is in there but it is utterly stupid if it's to defend yourself. Maybe will have to do a Tyson move and bite it's ear off to prove it was for self defense :) I'd rather go to jail than getting tortured by an attacking bear, miss an arm/leg or perhaps my life.
I appreciate your suggestions guys, thanks a lot.
In Ontario.
thousands have hunted bears with bows. To the best of my knowledge no bow hunter has been attacked.let alone killed.
Tens of thousands more go camping each year. Attacks are very rare. A good number of these people or a certain percentage anyways are shall we say. Not bush smart. Many will leave food around, panic if a bear pops out of the bush, do things that can trigger attacks. And yet.......
fool proof this? No, I imagine not.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=401ATHqOCOg
Dont see why the same bird shot in the air, won't work as well. Loud bangs do stop charging bears cold. You don't even have to buy a bear banger. And if it doesn't work. There is spray for emergency back up.
Lightning stikes, it happens. Usually precautions are all we need. I don't let the threat of being hit by lightning stop me. From doing things in life. Nor do I carry more than a toothpick when hunting them.
So you are asking an officer to determine whether its for protection or one is just scamming the situation? Given that way too many hunters would take advantage of the 'exemption', most would see nothing stupid about it whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism76
^^^^ x2Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
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Stupid smart phones. Not made for people with big thumbs.
appologies for the wrong video. Corrected now but just incase. Here it is again.
something else I, and thousands of others do. Hunt them with cameras. And yet....
camera man, stops a charge with a loud bang.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=401ATHqOCOg
Did this sow mean business? You bet, don't think there's any mistaking this charge.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vUG8UPsgE3U
So when hunting partridge with a SG..........don't see how a slug or rifle round is any louder than a SG with birdshot. And if that's fails, there is spray...and if that fails, well sometimes your number is just up, and you get hit by lightning.
Sawbill, I know why the law is for but if it's between life and jail for a few months.. I'll take jail.
JBen, I know it's rare but it happens. My grandfather said the same thing that they're afraid of us but yet 8 years before he said that his friend's wife lost her life while fishing and the bear dragged her and ate her instead of the fish. It happens! and I'd rather have something to better my odds if it ever does to me.
You're far more likely to be killed driving to your hunting spot.
Bear spray is proven effective. And no problems with the regs.
Chris I know it happens, and Im not trying to ooze testosterone. First time I went bear hunting with my bow. The first evening in the stand I was all pumped up. Then last light came and the lightbulb went off in my brain. The reason Im sitting in the bush with nothing but an arrow 15 yards from some sweet smelling bait.....is because Im hoping the bait will draw a large, hungry bear who sits in the weeds just out of sight until last light...But guess what bright guy....now you need to get down out of your tree and walk right past that bait barrel and big hungry bruin...and all the way out of the woods to...Not so smart Im thinking as I climb down and out..
And every time since, it's a little unnerving. But as a good friend once said to me. What are bears really but overgrown raccoons.
Bear Bangers, or shots fired into the air the work....obviously...And that should only be needed in very rare circumstances.
Bear Spray is a proven thing to....( problem I have with it, if fired into wind you will end up on the ground in the fetal position mewling like a tasty treat)
So,
1) Its extremely rare
2) Loud noises often work, like clapping your hands works. But if that fails
3) Louder noises, like a SG with bird shot being fired into the air...works....but if that also fails
4) Bear Spray will likely do it to...Theres a vid out there of a photographer hitting a bear with it who's face was inches from his.
And if that also fails, well your number was just up. Fate decided your time on earth was over, and nothing was/is going to change that.
As Welsh said, your more likely to die or get mauled in a car accident on the way up there.
How much do worry about that?
I lady on my lake in Haliburton was walking her dogs down a trail and the dogs startled a bear and it attacked one of the dogs then it attacked her, the second dog pestered the bear enough that it got off her to go after him and she could get away.
I was talking with her the day after and saw the scratches on her and the stitches on the dog.
Pretty surreal when it's that close to you.
I would think most bear attacks in Ontario are from startling the bear or getting between her and the Cubs.
Less about the bear being hungry.
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Yep. More often or not it's something we do, that triggers it. Like maybe shooting a bear and wounding it, and now you have one pissed off bear, rather than a shot in the air.
or dogs (been there done that personally. Thankful our dog didn't trigger an attack), or food around campsites, or Sows with cubs. See bear hunting. See guys using bait to draw them in, see how bears will sit and wait, approach cautiously, wait for last light just like you are........And how hundreds of guys get down out of stands, walk right past the barrels and out, even with Sows and Cubs right there.
Did an assignment for OOD with Dale Hainer years ago at Golden Eagle. Day 2 he's in a ground blind...A cub charges the blind and starts barking at it/him...Momma was nearby...Its all on vid.
I know this woman/quasi friend, acquaintance.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/officials-nab-...woman-1.537204
Lightning or shift happens. Sometimes your number is just up, sometimes its not. After punching and screaming it let her go......the next guy a few tents away....well Im pretty sure he kicked, punched and screamed to...Sometimes people get T-Boned and theres nothing they can do......
if 2 3 and 4 don't work...
I think close calls happen more often than bears people realise when you're in bear country. I had a nephew have to fire a few rounds into the ground in front of a bear (less than 15 yards) when he was moose hunting. I shot a bear that had stalked me to my stand (following my scent trail) and was less than 10 feet away while deer hunting.
If they recognize you as a human and don't run away - you have a problem.
Hopefully with a spring bear hunt we can weed out the aggressive bears a bit.
Hunting grouse with a .22 is fun and my favorite way when I'm way up north but if bears are a real concern for you I would change to a shotgun and carry regular old bird shot. A load of 5,6 or 7.5 will be devastating to a bear inside of 5 yards , if you want to stick to the 22 I would just carry bear spray.
Bear Spray takes a cool head to use which would be next to impossible for an attack victim in full panic mode. Just be sure that your back is to the wind before you release the contents of the can into the air at the Bear lest it comes back at you,making you a blind,well-seasoned dinner for Mr.Bruin.
No wonder some of us feel the need to use a flash light in the dark to get in and out of their spot, especially on public land....
Bear spray is all you need and if you can't use it because you're in panic mode, forget about using a gun!
I friend of my works for a bear outfitter and the rules are that only he is allowed to track. Numerous times people have been shot tracking bears. When we bear bait all we bring in is bear spray. I think the chances of you been attacking are pretty small. Bear spray or bear bells are used frequently and are less likely of you injuring someone. My friend baits in thunder bay which is pretty thick and nevers brings a gun with him. You can get hit outside driving or get hit by lighting. Bear spray is effective and if it works for outfitters pretty sure it will work for you. Most bears fear you and the aggressive boars or a mother and cub can be issues. My friend has been charged by a mommy bear and ran like hell once he saw a small cub at the bait.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I'm not saying that it's not effective. I'm just saying to pay attention if you need to use it. So,how do numerous people get shot tracking Bears,anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
Very good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
The age old debate. :)
Spray or shoot it :)
How many guys sitting in a stand with all the time in the world ( and not scared witless) shoot Bears and only wound them. Ask Outfitters and they will tell you lots. The week I spent at Golden Eagle if I recall correctly 3 were shot and not recovered. I joined the lead guide Byron in tracking one. That was not fun, especially when after 100 yards or so, we knew it wasn't going to be found piled up. He was the only person carrying a gun. Why? Because last year in BC a group of 6 tracked a bear, it charged. One of the party was shot and killed. Hurt by the bear? No-one.
Blood trail pic
http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s/v-2/p1119847796-5.jpg
http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s1/v56/p1119846456-5.jpg
http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s/v-2/p1119848454-5.jpg
Not hard at all to see how and why person get shot tracking bears. There were plenty of occasions when the bush was dark or thick enough that it could have been very angry, and within feet without knowing it.
I also joined him one day on his rounds baiting all the stations. He only brought Spray in.
How effective is it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWnACum4SJs
Maybe an answer to the debate?
Quote:
[COLOR=#000000]To find out if bear spray is as effective as guns, Servheen and colleagues with the U.S. Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team[COLOR=#000000] conducted a ten-year analysis in the 1990s, which found that people who defended themselves against bears with firearms suffered injury 50 percent of the time, while those outfitted with bear spray evaded injury most of the time.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...ls-bear-spray/
Wind is a concern, but if Im ever unlucky enough to be in position
1) Extremely rare situation and 2) loud noises aren't enough and 3) A shot in the air doesn't work....and I have to grab a can of spray.
Well as long as it works on the bear before I end up in the fetal position whimpering...Im ok with that :)
The odds of a bear attack are very low for whatever reason. Startling, guarding food, protecting Cubs whatever. But if you are that unlucky one in a million and do get attacked it will likely happen very fast and your best chance at surviving will be what you have in your hands. Not in a day pack, or holster. Any shotgun fired into a bear's face at point blank range will work. If I'm concerned about bears I carry a double barrel shotgun. We instinctively snap shoot at grouse and woodcock pretty sure instincts will kick in on a charging bear. When baiting I don't carry just make lots of noise going in. I also spray bug repellant when I Get there to get bears used to that scent for when I hunt and use it. I have witnessed a sow bear beat the snot out of a boar on a bait site. The only thing I trust is a shotgun.
Come on lets call this what it is, an excuse to carry a gun (which I am quite alright with :)). If we were really concerned about ouur "safety" we would never use a lawn mower without eye protection while wearing sneakers, hunt unless wearing eye and ear protection all of the time, always wear our seatbelt and observe the posted speed limit, I could go on and on...........
:):)
I always wear a seatbelt......:thumbup:
LOL and the others??Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Exactly why my friend only tracks alone or only tracks in legal light with a gun and only carries a gun and his job is bear outfitting and he has been buff charged before and only baits with bear spray.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Sorry to hijack this thread but what gun should I carry for gang protection down in the GTA? Might go to the mall this week end and after all I heard I'm kind of scared.... :moose:
22 hornet is over the 400 ft/lb energy limit. But bear season is so long that you just need the tag. Karen and I buy them just like an insurance policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by stragglelake
asked, "Was that bear really a danger to you?" It does not matter because I had a tag to take it.:thumbup:
And yet Terry.
statistics say the opposite. More people survive, with fewer injuries when using Bear Spray.
Do you not recall the Inuit guide a few years attacked by a polar bear?
While he survived, the worst bodily harm he suffered was damn near blowing his own foot off.
How easy do you think it will be swinging a 28" barrel to bear when it's on top of you?
and if you have "time", aka you see anywhere from 15-30 yards a blast in the air, before grabbing the can......
and if you don't drop it cold? You have 1 angry bear.
how many guys miss bears at 15yards when their life isn't on the line?
Google vids. There are all kinds. Both with bears charging from far enough away and even one where a grizz comes within s couple feet of a photographer who swings right to left with a 6inch can, bs a SG.
Fortunately, firearms don't take a cool head to use. There is absolutely no risk of missing the bear, failing to wound the bear seriously enough to stop it, or hitting a member of your own party. You can pretty much just point a gun anywhere and the bullet will guide itself to its intended target!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
We always see arguments advanced about bear spray being too hard to use, about the question of wind direction, about bears being so tough they just ignore the spray, etc., etc. These are arguments people have concocted from their easy chairs without actually looking for evidence of what works. If we actually look to what works in the field, it turns out bear spray is more effective than guns (as JBen just pointed out).
The reason for this is pretty obvious: a cloud of spray is easier to aim when a bear is charging you.
So the real world evidence suggests that firearms take a cool head, and bear spray does not.
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter1
You didn't get my point. The most effective tool is the one in your hands. If you walk around with a can of spray in your hands it would be effective. Most don't. They have them in nice little MEC holsters and expensive daypacks. I have killed many bears, both with gun and bow and have never had to shoot one twice. I once killed a Boar from about 18" off the muzzle of my rifle as he was trying to climb into my treestand escaping a Sow bent on killing him. That fight was surreal and if you witnessed it you would never depend on anything but a firearm. I was there, had to kill one bear to break it up and will always choose a gun. If you don't know how to handle a gun ( how many in these National Geographic surveys knew how to shoot a gun ) yes of course your spray will be better for you. A can of hair spray would be better too. Given a choice I will take the gun every time and will leave it at that.
do you think the spray will drop an enraged bear cold?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
if an Inuit survived a polar bear attack I would say even if he lost a toe the only reason he isn't polar bear poop is because he had a gun. And if you ever saw the speed an enraged bear moves you would know 15-30 yds isn't enough to play John Wayne and fire warning shots. You might have time to take one life saving shot. People have very misinformed ideas about bears. 99.99 % of the time they are scared of you but when they decide to fight they are nothing to screw with.
These were not "National Geographic surveys." In fact, they were not surveys at all. It's peer-reviewed research based on data collected from actual incidents. If you assume that the people in these incidents were carrying guns but didn't know how to handle them ... well, that's a pretty bold assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
A firearm often fails to stop an animal cold. All hunters know this to be true. It's why we have to track wounded game.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
However, the evidence from actual bear attack incidents where spray was used suggests that spray is effective at stopping bears over 90% of the time.
The question here is not whether a rifle is a better choice than bear spray, so much as it is, what's the best way to protect yourself from a bear attack (presuming you believe this is necessary) while grouse hunting.
I agree that the best tool is the one in your hands. But the best tool is not a .22, obviously, or a 12-gauge loaded with 7-1/2 shot. My choice would be to carry bear spray for bears and the shotgun for birds. I can make noise with the shotgun to deter a bear but I'm not too enthusiastic about wounding a bear with birdshot.
Now, if you're all hardcore about having a gun for this purpose, I did see a nice Brno drilling over the weekend: 16-gauge lower barrel with a 7x57 rifle barrel on top. That should do your bear nicely. Just don't mix them up when you pot that sitting grouse. :)
Finally, I think comments from the guy who did the study are in order. He addresses the silly gun-vs.-spray debate:
http://www.examiner.com/article/bear...-safety-expert
Terry. You know what did for a living....if what Welsh and I have been pointing out isn't enough. Just think about this.
your life is on the line, or you you believe it is/could be. (Bluff charge but...)
Neither is gauranteed, however the stats are there. So if you are literally going to bet your life. Do want to bet against the percentages? Or stack the odds. Blast the air, grab the can
We're hunters, fire arms enthusiast. I get it. We trust guns, Spray is a foreign concept, something we haven't learned to trust.
oh I forgot. You stay legal, no fears of legal trouble as an addedbonus.. No charges when you get caught carrying something you shouldn't be.
You mentioned that you like to hunt birds with a rifle. I have a 44 mag that I used low powered 44 specials in for birds. Just a bit more recoil than a 22 and with the loads I used a body hit didn't blow the bird to pieces( still tried for head shots). Sure you need a bear license but that happens with any centerfire....My gun was a Marlin lever with a scope, making it as easy to shoot as a 22 with the advantage of a pocket full of 44 mags for deer, bear or moose.
How many deaths in the last 10 years from black bear attacks??? My guess pretty none? If the threat was so big we would really need to worry. How people are out in bear country camping, hiking, fishing, hunting. Buy bear spray and remember their is a better chance of you dieing in a car crash on the way to your spot so wear your seat belt. Stats do not lie or make up bs hunting stories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
Here you go..some stats...
this HTML class. Value is http://news.national
And what BS hunting story are you talking about? Nobody said bear attacks were common but do a minimum of research and they do happen. By all means walk around with your spray can. But if you were that one in a million who does get attacked maybe you can yell at the bear and quote "stats" to it. Should work great. You do realize that the stats they use have no idea how many people ,actually spend man hours within bear country as it is virtually impossible to do so, so maybe they aren't quite the resource you think they are. I don't walk around with a gun or a can of spray but have been around enough bears and seen them fight to know what they are capable of.
This link does not come up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
I hunt with a gentlemen who has been hunting for 20 years for black bears. He works at a full time job in the fall bear baiting for an outfitter and probably runs 30 baits. He tells me that he goes into every bait without a gun. So i think i will actually listen and take advice from a professional bear outfitter. His advice is take in bear spray. He hunts in Thunder bay which is thick with bears. So i only relaying advice from a professional bear guide. Do you guide bears for a living??? He has been buff charged and walked into baits with a cub only and knew not to stick around. Again stats and professional bear outfitters are providing that advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
And I know a guy who has done it his whole life also who always carries a shotgun. He has good reasons. I have watched bears fight over a garbage bag in a dump and it is something to see, had to shoot one climbing into my tree stand and will just let you boys carry the spray and leave it at that. Enjoy your weekend.
Did notice that....just a link to a NG piece. Have to go home to fix it I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
Yes, people do get attacked by bears.
People also get struck by lightning. And that's something people take a few commonsense precautions to avoid, without getting wrapped around the axle over it.
Yes dont stand outside during a storm, wear bear spray and when driving use a seat belt. I just do not think you need to carry a gun every time we work outside our door inn bear country and stats and studies and people who soend time in bear country will say that.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
I'd say 100 round drum mag for your .22lr. Hope it's a semi so you can just slap the trigger like the rifle man.
I'm all seriousness, I'd just carry your .22. Shoot the charging bear in the face.
Dont think any medium rifle will be good for grouse and bear defense
I baited up to 50 baits for years as well and never carried a firearm. Its too difficult. You are on and off the quad all day long and carrying a firearm, loading and unloading each time , then its usually either slung over your shoulder or in your hands--it still doesn't come up that easily.
You can see where a stream of bear spray goes but you would have no idea where a snap shot with a rifle/shotgun ends up. Now you probably have to get off a second shot....
I'm convinced that the large can of spray is better than a rifle any day.
Which goes to the point that the most effective defence is the one in your hands ... if you have to unsling a firearm, you're too slow. That's why they sell holsters for the spray ... if it's in your pack you might as well not be carrying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Thanks. Best advice from an actual bear outfitter.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
I don't claim to be an expert. I have however had a bear watch me and my pooch while grouse hunting, only to charge off through the brush (unseen) when we stopped to examine its tracks where it turned off the trail we were walking on, and another do the same on the Mizzy Lake Trail in Algonquin Park while hiking there with my son several years ago. In the first case, I was armed with a 20 gauge over/under and had spray on my belt. In the second I was unarmed except for the spray on my belt. I surely felt just as secure of my personal safety in the second case as I did in the first, maybe more so, because in the second case my hands were unencumbered and the canister was drawn and ready to fire before I even determined that the bear was receding into the brush rather than advancing toward the trail.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/articl...arging-grizzly
*** While I wouldn't recommend a 22WMR for hunting bear I was sure glad to have had my Ruger Single-Six-Convertible on my hip (1965 moose-hunt) while fetching water just before dark . --- Let's just say that it resolved a "sticky" situation for me (at 15') . --- Now-a-days they won't allow you to carry a handgun (in the bush) but a rifle would do the trick as well (or even better) . --- The main-asset is a cool mind . --- "In a pinch" , your 22lr could save the bacon for you .---Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism76
Remember Bella (the native woman) and the giant grizzly ? --- Any gun is better than none .
Yet another nice article, with some "stats" Smallgamer.
My guess is some people can't be bothered to read them and more first.
as I said.We trust guns, we know guns.
[COLOR=#000000]"You strap your spray on every time you go out.” The biggest problem, he adds, is building confidence in the spray, especially among hunters."
yet there arethose hose who don't want to believe that spray works. Statistically better than guns.
I expect I will never have to test theories here. Hope I don't have to. But if I do, and I end up in a situation where I betting my life. I'll bet with the odds.
and the fact we know as hunters, people miss, people wound when not in a life and death situation, that buck fever is real. That when your heart starts racing and adrenaline pumping...... We know that even when we hit vitals it's not Hollywood and big game doesn't drop dead, doesn't get blown back. The fact we know wounded bears are one the most dangerous scenarios. The fact we know even highly trained Leo miss a lot when it hits the fan, even highly trained armed forces...let's see a bullit vs a cloud, a steady stream if need be. Most cans give you up to 8 seconds....of a cloud
i wonder of the people who have used guns and have gotten seriously mauled. How many trigger an attack. We know attacks are very rare. We know bears bluff charge a lot to...........maybe that's why people who reach for the can first walk away unscathed or with just scratches.wheres those who have tried guns get messed up..
and we know that swinging Barrels might not be that easy vs a small canister. Curious Terry if it's actually in your face how you think your going to get the business end where it needs to be.....
I to know bear outfitters, who bait up to 50 stations a day. Guess what they bring? Byron is just one. This young man had stones of steel. I've tracked wounded bears with him. Guess what...for the record he also has traps lines around Kap and pushes Wolves for wolf hunters in the winter. He carries spray.
hopefully none of us ever have to test one or the other...me I'll play the odds, the odds that say 92% of the time.....and if I can stack the odds, by firing into the air first to see if that's enough to send it on its way...all the better.
Obviously you don't follow the news.Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
These are the fatals - there are far more non-fatal attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._America#2000s
Those raising the issue of checking baits with/without guns are missing the point entirely. If the bear is feeding at the baits, he is probably not starving hungry and would just as soon eat at the bait pile as try to kill and eat a human. Its a completely different scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Not all bear encounters are the same... and while the startled bear or sow/cubs present some risk, if the bear calms down before it attacks you'll be okay. In the case of a bear hunting humans, well, the longer the encounter lasts, the lower your odds are.
Again that proves bear can be dangerous. But that really does not proof a gun is more effective than bear spray. So of these are actual captive bears. Also how many times are people around bears and what are the chances you will be eaten by a bear. Remember someone wins the lottery every week but the statistical chance you or i can win is pretty low. The same think applies around bears. I hunt bears in the fall and carry bear spray. Read other posts on this thread on bear outfitters methods of guns vs spray. Also all bears will end up at a bear bait and the bears in your stats were mothers and cubs and an aggressive boar. An aggressive boar is an aggressive boar.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Yes, in that list of dozens of wild bear attacks their is the occaisional captive bear attack.
And no, the list has nothing to do with gun/spray effectiveness.
But this thread is not about gun/spray effectiveness - it's about a solution for partridge/bear protection.
But it seems that since the first mention of bear spray, intelligence has been abandoned.
PffffftQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Real world experience? Who needs that? :silly:
I dont have your resume, but I have lived, worked, and played my whole life in the bush and have not had felt even one time that I should have a gun with me for bear protection.
The one time I did bring a gun was when I was working as a survey technician measuring garbage levels in a landfill. Those obviously arent bears that are in a normal situation.
So 3 in the past 10 years in the wild and not intended isn't a lot.... Definitely not enough to me to worry about it and to feel the need to carry a gun every morning while walking my dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
The OP could carry is 22 for bird and not worry about it, but if he feel the need for bear protection use the 22 or get a spray.
I counted 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
I have to chuckle a bit with those who hold up "stats" as the be all. I clearly remember getting into an argument here about the need for snow tires once and provided clear indisputable statistics and some discounted them and said to drive slower.
Anyway back to Bears. How does the research know without doubt if the bear attack was merely a bluff and would not have led to injury or fatality. Because anybody with bear experience knows bluff charges are typical. If the bear wasn't going to seal the deal then often times a stick to the face or yelling at it would stop a charge. Nobody here is saying spray won't work at turning a bear most times. But most isn't all the time. I never carry a gun while baiting. I also never carry spray. The sound of an ATV and the cursing and bug swatting on the way in will move a bear off a bait. They usually don't hit baits mid day so that's s good time to bait.
The simple reality is if you are charged and everybody agrees that is a very very Low possibility the only way to guarantee you will stop the charge by a bear intended on killing you is to kill the bear. Spray just won't do that. In the end most people will never be in the situation to need to defend themselves. I have. I had to shoot a boar at point blank range that was climbing up my ladder stand to escape the sow trying to kill him. I put a bullet into him when his muzzle crossed the last step. He dropped like a rock and the sow gathered her cubs and slowly walked away huffing. An enraged bear is not a posturing or bluffing bear. I also made the point that virtually nobody has the nerves of steel to go digging for a weapon and that what is in your hands is what will save you wether that is spray, a .22 or a side by side 12g with 00 buck. Let's just say if I had to track a wounded bear I wouldnt have spray in my hands.
Used to be so much simpler when we could carry our gun of choice in a shoulder holster. Never needed it for bears but did get a few birds and snowshoe hares...Did have twice when I followed wounded bears but never caught up with either.
This is simply untrue. It works from the assumption that a bear intent on killing you will continue its attack until dead. This is not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
As for how the research can tell what's a charge and what's a bluff, obviously there is no way to know with certainty. But given that bluff charges are rarely reported while attacks almost always are, and that the research is based on reported attacks, it would seem that the incidents studied would skew towards actual attacks. Also, it is worth noting that the same problem affects the research on the effectiveness of firearms to stop bear attacks -- there is no reason to assume that the reported firearms incidents included a significantly higher or lower percentage of bluff charges than did spray incidents.
But I think Terry has it right with this: "what is in your hands is what will save you whether that is spray, a .22 or a side by side 12g with 00 buck."
I'd agree with that - whatever you're planning on using has to be immediately accessible.Quote:
Originally Posted by 73hunter
http://m.imgur.com/gallery/47mEzZ5
You could just wear the right clothes.
If a bear is serious and gets you down with the intend of adding you to the bait bucket then a rifle is only good as a club. Only a handgun or spray will help at this stage.
8 page thread and this the most important advice on this 8 pages. An actual professional who runs 50 baits. Surprise surprise. My friend who runs 30 baits recommends the same advice. My friend who guides would never never allow hunters with him tracking unless they were unharmed. He knows they have a better chance of shooting others than the bear.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Well the entire point in carrying a rifle or shotgun is to keep out of this situation. Bear spray is only effective out to about 15 feet. I wouldn't intend to let a bear get that close.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Chances are in a bear attack the bear will be that close before you can react.
I'd say carry what you feel most comfortable with. For some guys it's a gun and for others it's the spray. I myself prefer a gun :-)
That why bear spray is recommended. It is cheap, legal and works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
"Yep. More often or not it's something we do, that triggers it.
....or food around campsites, or Sows with cubs"
The majority of fatal attacks are by healthy boars out in the wild. They are unprevoked, predatory attacks. A black that commits is more likely to seal the deal than a brown/grizz (higher precentage of attacks result in death), although the latter is both larger and more aggressive. The "sow with cubs" deal is also more of a grizzly thing. A black sow will almost always run them up a tree, and often flee a little ways herself. A charge by a black will almost always be a bluff. It's for show, to intimidate, run you off. A predatory attack will start slow and deliberate (eg; people being followed, "stalked").
I've had several encounters, seen many, many more out and about. Most of them run in the opposite direction. One made an impact. I was bird hunting in an area that was boat access, carrying a .410 sxs stuffed with 7 1/2's. I'm sure it would have done the job point blank had it gone that far, but I ran into a 350-400lb fall bruin at about 15' and it felt like a pea shooter in my hands. What I feel was the limiting factor was the fact that I was on top a ridge, looking for a spot to get down and it was at the bottom. I ended up walking backwards through the bush until I hit the boat, untied it with the gun still in my hands and didn't unload until I was a good 30 yards from shore. I believe it trailed me out. I had people try to tell me afterwards things like "you surprised it" or "it didn't know what you were". I was wearing blaze orange and was making ample noise busting through brush and whatnot. I wouldn't hunt or go into the bush solo for 3 years. I stopped sleeping in tents. When I did feel comfortable enough to go hunting for birds during that time (with others) I took the 12, slugs in the back pocket. I knew it could be a ticket if I ever got checked. I didn't care.
I'm much different now. Did a bear hunt with some buds a few years ago. Tracked mine solo a short while. Had an incident where 4 of us were tracking in the rain one evening. One guy went back to the truck to get his gun and pushed another bear off the bait. Scared the $#*! outta him, so he yelled which scared the $#*! outta the bear, which ran between the other 3 of us. Certainly wasn't a calm moment but nobody drew their gun, fired a shot. My buddy said myself racking a round was the loudest thing he heard through the whole fiasco. Maybe we're different. I worked with a guy who hunted with a party.. they were tracking a bear and a bull moose got up in front of one of the guys. Guess what happened...
Going into the bush and it's not hunting season, I take a good strong paddle if I feel I need something. Aim for the nose/eyes. Don't trust the spray.. too many variables.
Well, all I can say is. I'm currently camping/fishing near Marathon with a few guys from the board. We've now had a Sow/cub in camp, and this morning at 6am when I unzipped my fly (lol), and stepped out of my tent. There was a nice 300 pounder 15 yards away. He looked at me, I looked at him. Another board member and I watched him for the next hour.happy to say, no theories tested.
Imagine that.
Glad to hear you did not pull out your rifle and blow him away. Again common sense makes sense... Others would not agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Can you link to any post here that recommended shooting bears that weren't attacking? "Blowing them away". Really???Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
North hunter. Thanks for the story.
Why didn't you fire a warning shot.
I'm not sure... to be honest the gun at the time felt completely inadequate. Sometimes your brain takes about half a second to process everything and tell you what's going on. When that happened my main focus was getting the hell out of there. I would have used it if I needed to, glad I didn't need to. I had already passed a spot where I could get down where the bear was (before I knew there was a bear, of coarse) and decided the ridge was a better vantage point. I often wonder how things would have played out if I got down low instead?
"Blow him away"? Really? Um-m-m,let's not forget that the spring Bear hunt is still on until June15. For anyone with a tag,that's a trophy Blackie.Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
I carry a 410, and always have a slug or two.... the 22.410 combo is a nice compromise for you. so i vote for that along with some of the others
The point I was hoping for Trimmer is that attacks are so bloody rare. I stepped out of my tent and he was close enough to spit on. We looked at each other and he went about his business. What are people "afraid" of...."really". We had the same sow/cub by last night. I imagine there's been a few dozen outfitters baiting many stations all spring. I imagine hundreds of hunters in the bush with Sows and Cubs all around them. Has there been any attacks this spring?......I suspect Ponbura was sarcastically wondering how many bears would be shot or shot and wounded completely uneccessarily.....but people don't feel safe in the woods unless they are armed....
yeah no doubt there's the odd aggressive make out there. The odds might be the same as getting hit by lighting. They say the odds of being attacked in Yellowstone are 1 in 2.2 million and Yellowstone is a hell of a lot smaller (more bears per square mile)......The odds are certainly better than getting hit and seriously messed up or killed in a car accident. I assume most of us have lost a friend or 3 in car accidents.
If if people are really that nervous..........
Spray does work, it's proven. If a bear is actually chewing on me, not sure how I'd get the business end of a SG where it needs to be.
So for the other 2,199,000 bear encounters I'm likely to have it wont be a predator/rogue and I bet many people trigger attacks one way or the other.
a warning shot will likely scare off 2million, and for the few where that's not enough the spray will work just the same.
And im legal.
and yes I have spray with me. Did I get all nervous and run for it.....
To me it's akin to wanting to carry inside the Eaton centre on the 1 in 2milliin chance a gang banger starts spraying. Or a terrorist in Attack at Unions station. Not worth so much angst and lack of sleep
Thanks nice comments and i think we should leave the thread with these wise words.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
True but a terrorist and gang banger wouldn't steal my sausages.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
" look at the bear...... Cool I'm going to bed " lol
LMAO
That may possibly be the funniest reaction and line from the week.
#blackbearslivesmatter
I've been charged twice by bears. The first time I was sneeking away from my bait when I startled a bear about 40 yards away that was coming into the bait. He did not see me at first just heard me. I truly think he thought I was another bear. He came running right at me, Head down huffing and jaw snapping. I just raised my rifle when I saw him at 20 yards and when I seen his melon in the scope I pulled the trigger. CLICK.......forgot to reload my gun after getting out of the tree stand.
That bear stopped mid stride about 20 feet away, I reloaded as he stood on his hind legs, At this point he had me figured out and turned around and ran just as I reshouldered the gun. No shot fired. My heart was hitting my rib cage so hard I thought I was going to faint.
Second time I was sneeking into my bait just at first light when I got 40 yards from my tree stand and heard a cub bawl. I backed up but momma heard me. I was standing on the logging trail and I heard the sow huff once and cubs instantly up the tree. Momma bear came ripping around the corner and when I seen her I started yelling andndnd waving my compound over my head. She stopped about 30 yards away and gave the ground a few swats then backed up and took off.
I climbed my ladder stand with bow in hand in about 3 seconds. About 5 minutes later the Cubs went down and left. Only for the sow and 3 cubs to return 20minutes later. I yelled at them soon as they got to the bait and she rushed towards me but then decided to leave. They never did return for rest of the season.
Both cases was me surprising the bears and they just acted normal. Complete bluff charges. Really wish I got that first bear though. He was a big one. I always have my gun loaded now after climbing down now. That was a good lesson
The interestng thing about these two stories is, if you had shot them both while they were charging you would had thought you had to or you would be dead. Indeed not....Quote:
Originally Posted by SongDog
Great story btw, just hope they never happen to me.
X 2! Holy cow!Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Some people want to protect themselves from bears. I believe others want to carry guns, hoping they can shoot a bear and justify it as protection. And oddly, I think the line is blurry sometimes.
There was a guy who posted on the site a few years back, that he was waterfowling and a bear came out of the bush 20 yards away. Never saw or scented our guy and wandered away. But the poster was honest enough to admit he would have shot that bear had he had a slug or buckshot. I have had the same thing happen with a wolf that heard me and tried to scent me from 10 or 15 yards when I was bowhunting for grouse. I quietly placed a broadhead-tipped arrow on my bow and would likely have shot that wolf given a clear shot. It never happened; he got frustrated because I was downwind and left.
Not so lucky was the wolf who was part of a pack who accidentally surrounded a friend of mine while he was moose hunting in Alberta. Mike says the worst hunting memory he has is shooting that wolf who had made no aggressive moves whatever. Just lay there watching him from 20 yards.
This just demonstrates to me that we humans get nervous and our judgment is often less than perfect in the presence of predators up close. I personally have never carried a gun outside hunting season for protection, but I don't see a problem in the hands of someone very calm and levelheaded, with experience.
To the OP: If I wanted the best combo grouse gun/bear gun, I would recommend a 12-gauge with slugs. I would personally, for myself, carry a .444 Marlin with .410 birdshot for grouse and 265-grain bulleted loads. But I sold my .444 so that's a moot point.
Don't worry KC - your .444 still gets used with 265 grains for deer and .410 for grouse. Haven't shot a bear with it yet. It's a real nice rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
One of the few firearms I regret selling, Werner! And the price on them has really started to climb! I'm really glad it went to a good home!Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
And the OP explained that he liked to bird hunt with a 22 but wanted to move up to something that he could also use for bear. While I have killed numerous birds with my 270, once I switched to a forty caliber like you and WR, it became a lot easier, just in case you made a body shot. I wasn't the least bit worried about protection, just enjoyed the hunt.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
Good thread. The back and forth was great.
I just had my first bear encounter of the year last night, and I will be checking out the spray w/holsters today. That said, I chose the shotgun last night for the deterrent.
I periodically get bears wandering through the property, and they've all run away pretty quick when confronted - I like to give them a loud sendoff with the shotgun to persuade them to hurry up.
Last night was a bit different; it was a younger bear than I usually see - maybe 200lbs, but what do I know - and was sitting 50 feet from my house munching on clover at the edge of the septic field. I didn't see it, so we spooked each other as I got about 30 feet away (I was headed to the chicken coop). I yelled at it as it ran away, then I grabbed some broken branches and hucked them at the trees where the bear had run into the bush. Problem solved? I waited and listened and one minute later there were bush noises getting louder 75 feet to the right of where it went in. Guess it was checking whether the coast was clear. I yelled some more and made a ruckus, then heard nothing. At that point I figured I may need something with a bit more oomph.
I told my wife we had a visitor, so she grabbed a flashlight, and I grabbed the shotgun and flashlight, and hi-vis. We headed out, me going out back by the septic, and her going to look from the front. Cheeky bear was back. Its only reaction to seeing us was to look and then ignore us. Yelling produced a s-l-o-w stand and saunter. It was getting pretty low light, so I had no inclination to take a slug-shot with the bead and leave a wounded bear in our bush. I hurried it up with a 3" load of steel shot fired behind it (I like the extra bright flash I seem to get from the steel shot at night). Done Deal? Nope. Nosy thing circled back just inside the bush staring at me (good thing their eyes light up with the flashlight). Another shot over its head sent it packing for the night.
I don't like that bear's cavalier attitude toward us, or its persistence, especially with the critters and my kids around. I'm pretty sure that bear used up its first and second chances all at once.
That said, a holstered spray would be a lot less cumbersome and more accessible when out and about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltman
Or not, you might just end up pissing him off. My preference is to come big or stay home. I've done the math, and the fine, for being caught, with slugs, without a bear licence and hunter orange on, ranges around $300, with possibly other repercussions. The bear licence is above $50, buying a bear licence each year, with a $300 pot at stake, will give you at least 6 years of peace of mine, while your out hunting grouse. Just don't forget to comply with the hunter orange requirement and the mandatory bear survey. If there is a better argument it would be to limit the extent of the bear season, and run it to coincided with the deer season, in my WMU it starts September 1 or 2 and runs to November 30. I will omit I have no interest in doing bears, or am I not likely to shoot one unless I haven't any choice.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
I've encountered a few bears in my life-time and wouldn't feel "under-gunned" at all if I carried a 12ga. (even with bird-shot) . --- Since bear wouldn't be on the "agenda" while bird-hunting I'd shoot ONLY if I had to . --- Keep cool and let it come close enough before pulling the trigger ; shooting at the head will do the trick . --- Years ago I was forced to "dispatch" one with a 22mag. handgun at 10-15' . --- I wrote about that in a previous post .Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
I'm well aware it's a rare event,JBen. I've had great success simply hollerin' and bouncing rocks of the Blackie's old coconut. Bear spray works well. We got messin' with it at an in-service training session and wound up clearing out half the detachment (janitor was PO'd and we got shyte for that).Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
I wear blaze orange no matter what we happen to be hunting (except ducks). I regard the purchase of a Bear license the same as you,simply an insurance policy to carry heavy duty stuff with me,only to dump one if necessary or to go on a last minute organized hunt with the gang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
A meteor could fall from the sky and take off your head. We should not live our lives in fear.
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