Happy Medium rifle for partridge and black bear protection?

[JBen]

And yet Terry.
statistics say the opposite. More people survive, with fewer injuries when using Bear Spray.

Do you not recall the Inuit guide a few years attacked by a polar bear?
While he survived, the worst bodily harm he suffered was damn near blowing his own foot off.
How easy do you think it will be swinging a 28" barrel to bear when it's on top of you?

and if you have "time", aka you see anywhere from 15-30 yards a blast in the air, before grabbing the can......

and if you don't drop it cold? You have 1 angry bear.
how many guys miss bears at 15yards when their life isn't on the line?

Google vids. There are all kinds. Both with bears charging from far enough away and even one where a grizz comes within s couple feet of a photographer who swings right to left with a 6inch can, bs a SG.

[welsh]

Bear Spray takes a cool head to use which would be next to impossible for an attack victim in full panic mode.

Fortunately, firearms don't take a cool head to use. There is absolutely no risk of missing the bear, failing to wound the bear seriously enough to stop it, or hitting a member of your own party. You can pretty much just point a gun anywhere and the bullet will guide itself to its intended target!

We always see arguments advanced about bear spray being too hard to use, about the question of wind direction, about bears being so tough they just ignore the spray, etc., etc. These are arguments people have concocted from their easy chairs without actually looking for evidence of what works. If we actually look to what works in the field, it turns out bear spray is more effective than guns (as JBen just pointed out).

The reason for this is pretty obvious: a cloud of spray is easier to aim when a bear is charging you.

So the real world evidence suggests that firearms take a cool head, and bear spray does not.

Come on lets call this what it is, an excuse to carry a gun....

Yup.

[terrym]

You didn't get my point. The most effective tool is the one in your hands. If you walk around with a can of spray in your hands it would be effective. Most don't. They have them in nice little MEC holsters and expensive daypacks. I have killed many bears, both with gun and bow and have never had to shoot one twice. I once killed a Boar from about 18" off the muzzle of my rifle as he was trying to climb into my treestand escaping a Sow bent on killing him. That fight was surreal and if you witnessed it you would never depend on anything but a firearm. I was there, had to kill one bear to break it up and will always choose a gun. If you don't know how to handle a gun ( how many in these National Geographic surveys knew how to shoot a gun ) yes of course your spray will be better for you. A can of hair spray would be better too. Given a choice I will take the gun every time and will leave it at that.

[terrym]

and if you have "time", aka you see anywhere from 15-30 yards a blast in the air, before grabbing the can......

and if you don't drop it cold?

do you think the spray will drop an enraged bear cold?

if an Inuit survived a polar bear attack I would say even if he lost a toe the only reason he isn't polar bear poop is because he had a gun. And if you ever saw the speed an enraged bear moves you would know 15-30 yds isn't enough to play John Wayne and fire warning shots. You might have time to take one life saving shot. People have very misinformed ideas about bears. 99.99 % of the time they are scared of you but when they decide to fight they are nothing to screw with.

[welsh]

... how many in these National Geographic surveys knew how to shoot a gun )...

These were not "National Geographic surveys." In fact, they were not surveys at all. It's peer-reviewed research based on data collected from actual incidents. If you assume that the people in these incidents were carrying guns but didn't know how to handle them ... well, that's a pretty bold assumption.

do you think the spray will drop an enraged bear cold?

A firearm often fails to stop an animal cold. All hunters know this to be true. It's why we have to track wounded game.

However, the evidence from actual bear attack incidents where spray was used suggests that spray is effective at stopping bears over 90% of the time.

The question here is not whether a rifle is a better choice than bear spray, so much as it is, what's the best way to protect yourself from a bear attack (presuming you believe this is necessary) while grouse hunting.

I agree that the best tool is the one in your hands. But the best tool is not a .22, obviously, or a 12-gauge loaded with 7-1/2 shot. My choice would be to carry bear spray for bears and the shotgun for birds. I can make noise with the shotgun to deter a bear but I'm not too enthusiastic about wounding a bear with birdshot.

Now, if you're all hardcore about having a gun for this purpose, I did see a nice Brno drilling over the weekend: 16-gauge lower barrel with a 7x57 rifle barrel on top. That should do your bear nicely. Just don't mix them up when you pot that sitting grouse.

Finally, I think comments from the guy who did the study are in order. He addresses the silly gun-vs.-spray debate:
http://www.examiner.com/article/bear...-safety-expert

[JBen]

Terry. You know what did for a living....if what Welsh and I have been pointing out isn't enough. Just think about this.

your life is on the line, or you you believe it is/could be. (Bluff charge but...)
Neither is gauranteed, however the stats are there. So if you are literally going to bet your life. Do want to bet against the percentages? Or stack the odds. Blast the air, grab the can


We're hunters, fire arms enthusiast. I get it. We trust guns, Spray is a foreign concept, something we haven't learned to trust.

oh I forgot. You stay legal, no fears of legal trouble as an addedbonus.. No charges when you get caught carrying something you shouldn't be.

[patvetzal]

You mentioned that you like to hunt birds with a rifle. I have a 44 mag that I used low powered 44 specials in for birds. Just a bit more recoil than a 22 and with the loads I used a body hit didn't blow the bird to pieces( still tried for head shots). Sure you need a bear license but that happens with any centerfire....My gun was a Marlin lever with a scope, making it as easy to shoot as a 22 with the advantage of a pocket full of 44 mags for deer, bear or moose.

[pbonura]

How many deaths in the last 10 years from black bear attacks??? My guess pretty none? If the threat was so big we would really need to worry. How people are out in bear country camping, hiking, fishing, hunting. Buy bear spray and remember their is a better chance of you dieing in a car crash on the way to your spot so wear your seat belt. Stats do not lie or make up bs hunting stories.

[Snowwalker]

How many deaths in the last 10 years from bear attacks??? My guess pretty none? If the threat was so big we would really need to worry. How people are out in bear country camping, hiking, fishing, hunting. Buy bear spray and remember their is a better chance of you dieing in a car crash on the way to your spot so wear your seat belt. Stats do not lie or make up bs hunting stories.

Here you go..some stats...
this HTML class. Value is http://news.national

[terrym]

And what BS hunting story are you talking about? Nobody said bear attacks were common but do a minimum of research and they do happen. By all means walk around with your spray can. But if you were that one in a million who does get attacked maybe you can yell at the bear and quote "stats" to it. Should work great. You do realize that the stats they use have no idea how many people ,actually spend man hours within bear country as it is virtually impossible to do so, so maybe they aren't quite the resource you think they are. I don't walk around with a gun or a can of spray but have been around enough bears and seen them fight to know what they are capable of.