Bear Spearing was illegal

Looking at the Alberta regs. unless i missed something, it seems pretty clear that it was illegal? unless perhaps it happen on a reservation and the laws were different.

but the big game regs pretty clearly define the ONLY two types of seasons and what you can use.

"Archery Only Seasons are those where only a bow and arrow may be used to hunt.
General Seasons are those where either a firearm, cross-bow or a bow and arrow may be used. "

and a spear doesn't qualify as a weapon, or firearm under their laws....


So may he be prosecuted? because to my eye, it appears clear that a spear is not a legal means to kill a black bear?

If your correct then why did they just pass regulations to prohibit it?

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Originally Posted by godheadx

If your correct then why did they just pass regulations to prohibit it?

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My information is that because Alberta didn't have ANY regulations against spear hunting in the Act,then,it's not illegal,at all. That's why there was a mad scramble to ram a regulation through which,BTW,still hasn't been signed into law by the Alberta L-G,yet.

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Originally Posted by godheadx

If your correct then why did they just pass regulations to prohibit it?

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The way the Regulations work, whatever is not prohibited is quite acceptable to do. The Regulation in Ontario provide that if you use a shotgun for big game you are restricted in the gauge and types of ammunition you can uses. and if you are using a rifle you are restricted to centre-fire firearms, you may not use rim-fire rifles. If you employ archery there are arrow length and bow strengths to conform to, as well as the type and width of the arrowhead you may use. There is currently nothing in the regulation that prohibits the use of spears for big game hunting. Accordingly what is not prohibited is acceptable for use. Another example of this is baiting of wildlife, when hunting, the Regulation prohibit the baiting of wild turkey, and waterfowl. There is no prohibition about baiting bear or deer. In the case of deer you may only use synthetic lures, while you may not hunt bears near a waste disposal site. Although you may not bait waterfowl, hunting waterfowl in fields with crop stubble is not considered baiting. Beyond the Regulation are your own personal ethics and what you feel good about doing, The question is: Am I taking unfair advantage of a game resource in the way I might be hunting. If so, it's like stopping at a stop sign if enough individual choose to ignore the imposition, by and by the stop sign gets replace with a stop light. If it appears that your personal ethics are not providing for fair chase, by and by a regulation will be put in place to ensure it.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

From the Alberta hunting regs
http://www.albertaregulations.ca/hun...s/genregs.html

BIG GAME

It is unlawful to

set out, use or employ any of the following items for the purpose of hunting big game:
- ammunition of less than .23 calibre,
- ammunition that contains non-expanding bullets,
- an auto-loading firearm that has the capacity to hold more than 5 cartridges in the magazine,
- a shotgun having a gauge of .410 or less,
- a shotgun in a bird sanctuary,
- bait, except as permitted for the hunting of black bears (click here for more information on Black Bear baiting),
- an arrow other than an authorized arrow (click here for more information on bowhunting),
- a bow other than an authorized bow (click here for more information on bowhunting),
- a muzzle-loading firearm of less than .44 calibre,
- a rifle or shotgun in WMUs 212, 248 or 410 (persons hunting under the authority of a Strathcona White-tailed Deer Licence, a Foothills Deer Licence, or an Antlerless Moose Special Licence in Strathcona County may hunt with a bow and arrow, cross-bow, muzzle loader or shotgun),
- a trap,
- a cross-bow and arrow that is not authorized (click here - to view Hunting with a Cross-bows)

Nothing about spears. So as long as he hunted the bear in a general hunt rather than an archery only hunt, it looks like tge hunt was legal.

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

From the Alberta hunting regs
http://www.albertaregulations.ca/hun...s/genregs.html

BIG GAME

It is unlawful to

set out, use or employ any of the following items for the purpose of hunting big game:
- ammunition of less than .23 calibre,
- ammunition that contains non-expanding bullets,
- an auto-loading firearm that has the capacity to hold more than 5 cartridges in the magazine,
- a shotgun having a gauge of .410 or less,
- a shotgun in a bird sanctuary,
- bait, except as permitted for the hunting of black bears (click here for more information on Black Bear baiting),
- an arrow other than an authorized arrow (click here for more information on bowhunting),
- a bow other than an authorized bow (click here for more information on bowhunting),
- a muzzle-loading firearm of less than .44 calibre,
- a rifle or shotgun in WMUs 212, 248 or 410 (persons hunting under the authority of a Strathcona White-tailed Deer Licence, a Foothills Deer Licence, or an Antlerless Moose Special Licence in Strathcona County may hunt with a bow and arrow, cross-bow, muzzle loader or shotgun),
- a trap,
- a cross-bow and arrow that is not authorized (click here - to view Hunting with a Cross-bows)

Nothing about spears. So as long as he hunted the bear in a general hunt rather than an archery only hunt, it looks like tge hunt was legal.

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My point exactly. If there's no specific law against it,then,it's not illegal. I don't think spears are mentioned specifically anywhere in Ontario law,but,our regs are worded in such a way to allow ONLY certain equipment to be used. Alberta law ,so far,isn't worded the same way,obviously which is about to change ASAP.

Here we go with all the arm chair lawyers!
Godheadx has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Brampton Mike

Here we go with all the arm chair lawyers!
Godheadx has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Not really.....the contemplated change to their regs, just adds spears to the "is illegal to" list...
Like Trimmer said, the absence of spears in the list, makes their use legal...This guy isn't the only spear hunter. The others just didn't bring attention to themselves.

With an account I read Alberta had been struggling with this issue long before it became front page news. Because spearing was such a limited activity in their jurisdiction it was just one of those pieces of legislation that gets put on the back burner til it has to be addressed.
Well, now it has.

Mum.... ok, so i'm not disagreeing with any of you necessarily. but the regulations are there to tell us what's legal too, it clearly does not state that spears are legal...
If i use your "if it's not listed as illegal, then it's legal" idea, then i can kill a bear by throwing rocks? or with a baseball bat? or frankly anything on earth? you're saying that EVERYTHING is legal that isn't listed specifically as illegal? then it's legal for me to run down deer with my atv? i don't get the point you're trying to make, the regs outline what you can use, and the alberta regs clearly state that there are ONLY SEASONS for bow and arrow, rifle/shotgun, and crossbow. nothing else. how is that awkward to understand, it seems pretty obviously illegal.

It was always illegal. the "illegal" section is only an summary of most frequently asked questions regarding legality, it doesn't outline every single thing that's illegal.

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

Mum.... ok, so i'm not disagreeing with any of you necessarily. but the regulations are there to tell us what's legal too, it clearly does not state that spears are legal...
If i use your "if it's not listed as illegal, then it's legal" idea, then i can kill a bear by throwing rocks? or with a baseball bat? or frankly anything on earth? you're saying that EVERYTHING is legal that isn't listed specifically as illegal? then it's legal for me to run down deer with my atv? i don't get the point you're trying to make, the regs outline what you can use, and the alberta regs clearly state that there are ONLY SEASONS for bow and arrow, rifle/shotgun, and crossbow. nothing else. how is that awkward to understand, it seems pretty obviously illegal.

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

It was always illegal. the "illegal" section is only an summary of most frequently asked questions regarding legality, it doesn't outline every single thing that's illegal.

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You just lost us,completely.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

You just lost us,completely.

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What i'm trying to say is that some of the posts are saying "it's not listed as illegal, so it's legal"
what i'm saying is that doesn't make any sense. Because, if that's how it works, then you'd be saying that i could use rocks, my truck etc... to kill a bear, since it's "not listed as illegal"

i'm trying to make the point that "it's not listed as illegal, so therefore it's legal" doesn't make any sense....

furthermore, my basic point still hasn't been disputed, the regs are very clear that there are ONLY two season, and spear is NOT one of them, therefore, this hunt was 100% illegal... So i don't see how anyone can defend this guy, in the legality of the hunt, or in how he acted after it.

"Archery Only Seasons are those where only a bow and arrow may be used to hunt. General Seasons are those where either a firearm, cross-bow or a bow and arrow may be used. "

In Ontario a spear would be "illegal" according to our regs.

"Big game, including black bears, may only be hunted with a firearm (this includes bows)." page 75 Hunting Regulations 2016.

I didn't read all of Alberta but I imho the manner in which Ontarios regs are laid out make it clear.

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

What i'm trying to say is that some of the posts are saying "it's not listed as illegal, so it's legal"
what i'm saying is that doesn't make any sense. Because, if that's how it works, then you'd be saying that i could use rocks, my truck etc... to kill a bear, since it's "not listed as illegal"

i'm trying to make the point that "it's not listed as illegal, so therefore it's legal" doesn't make any sense....

furthermore, my basic point still hasn't been disputed, the regs are very clear that there are ONLY two season, and spear is NOT one of them, therefore, this hunt was 100% illegal... So i don't see how anyone can defend this guy, in the legality of the hunt, or in how he acted after it.

"Archery Only Seasons are those where only a bow and arrow may be used to hunt. General Seasons are those where either a firearm, cross-bow or a bow and arrow may be used. "

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Originally Posted by Mdiddi

In Ontario a spear would be "illegal" according to our regs.

"Big game, including black bears, may only be hunted with a firearm (this includes bows)." page 75 Hunting Regulations 2016.

I didn't read all of Alberta but I imho the manner in which Ontarios regs are laid out make it clear.

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There we go. TrapJack,that's what I'm trying to say. This just explains it better.

Sounds like this is s grey area, like Sawbill said, that just fell through the cracks somehow. Lots of hunters strive to hunt by "traditional" means. Well.....you can't get any more traditional than a spear ! But IMHO, like previously posted, if it wasn't "legal" or had fallen through the cracks somehow, then they wouldn't be scrambling now to address the issue.
As far as taking animals by other means, animal cruelty laws have that covered.

I guess i just have a record stuck skipping in my head and i can't get past what i keep repeating, alberta states simply there are only two legal hunts, and spear is not listed, i don't see any grey area? are you trying to say that a spear could be considered a bow and arrow, gun, or crossbow?

i don't see any grey, i see very clear black and white, you can only legally hunt the province with those three means. where's the grey?

i'm stuck on this one, i don't have anything to add lol, i'm just repeating myself, sorry guys.... i just can't for the life of me, see the grey area people are talking about... the regs say flat out you can only hunt with a bow and arrow, crossbow, or gun.... do they really need to name every object on earth that isn't a bow and arrow, crossbow, or gun? the definitions of those items are clear.

Im sure the"Notley Crew" will sort it out !!

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Im sure the"Notley Crew" will sort it out !!

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Yep! Regrettably.

How I read the regs: http://albertaregulations.ca/hunting...r-seasons.html

so there is an archery only season. There is also a "general" season where the limitations of my previous post would come into effect "no traps" etc.

I have to think if the spear hunter did anything illegal, he would have been charged by now. Furthermore, the guide camp who baited and put him on this bear would have altered the authorities what he was doing/had done or at the very least told him that this action is illegal.

Dyth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

How I read the regs: http://albertaregulations.ca/hunting...r-seasons.html

so there is an archery only season. There is also a "general" season where the limitations of my previous post would come into effect "no traps" etc.

I have to think if the spear hunter did anything illegal, he would have been charged by now. Furthermore, the guide camp who baited and put him on this bear would have altered the authorities what he was doing/had done or at the very least told him that this action is illegal.

Dyth

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The limitations or "illegal acts" section of the guide is not a comprehensive list, it's a "frequently asked: explanations" page. You also can't hunt bears by poisoning them, or killing them with a baseball bat but that's not listed there either, because it doesn't come up.
the "general" season which you alluded to, but failed to completely describe, is defined by a hunt using a firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow only. and spear does not meet the definition for any of those. so there is no legal spear hunt by definition.

And if you're reasoning is that all outfitters are truthful and never break laws, you're nuts. having worked in the industry for 15 years, i can assure you i see laws broken nearly everyday of the fishing, hunting and trapping season... from booze in boats to poaching, it's everywhere all the time. Outdoors laws are broken like any other laws, jaywalking is overlooked, speeding is overlooked (who drives under 100 on the 401?) the "lesser" laws are a suggestion more than a black and white rule to most...

The only thing i can come up with that would make this hunt potentially legal, which i have mentioned before, would be if he was hunting on a FN reserve, where those regs may be out the window. If this is the case, then any change to the laws to stop this hunt wouldn't work anyways, it could go on and on and on regardless of their legislation shifts.

I just pulled this wording out of the Alberta Hunting regs under the Bowhunting section...it would appear that there is a specific category or season for hunting with 'primative' weapons...

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Bowhunters with appropriate general or special licences may hunt during the general seasons, archery-only seasons and primitive weapon seasons.


Bowhunters are reminded that, in some situations, archery-only seasons for some species may be in progress at the same time as primitive weapon and rifle seasons for other species in the same WMU.

http://aep.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife/...s/default.aspx

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May put to rest the question of legality, I'm sure it can be argued that a spear is a 'primative' weapon.

Alberta has no specific definition of 'primitive weapon' but they do have a definition of 'weapon'.
That definition is very clear however that a weapon would be some sort of device that propels a projectile by mechanical means and they include spring, string, wire etc.
There is no inclusion of a weapon being cast or thrown by muscle power so it is not considered a useable device for hunting.

I guess that is the 'legal' loop hold..there is no specific definition for a primitive weapon.

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He said the 2016 regulations that came into force in July should prevent spear hunting by applying strict definitions as to what constitutes a weapon. But he admitted the lack of a specific ban could make the regulation a grey area. At the time the video was recorded, there was no law in place preventing spear hunting.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...pear-1.3722070

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The MNRF came out immediately and said that hunting with a spear is illegal in Ontario. Not sure how that can be misunderstood.

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Originally Posted by Dude Bro

The MNRF came out immediately and said that hunting with a spear is illegal in Ontario. Not sure how that can be misunderstood.

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Well it didn't happen in Ontario. It happened in Alberta.

If it was an illegal act, do you think we would know by now?!? Like the media wouldn't be all over it.......

I suspect the media are for the most part non-hunters and don't know the right questions to ask.

That's probably the first thing the MNA, medias and tree augers checked.....

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Originally Posted by seabast

If it was an illegal act, do you think we would know by now?!? Like the media wouldn't be all over it.......

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A quick look at the media/news coverage..the video hit YouTube back in June....but didn't become news worthy till Aug 17th when it was a splashed across the headlines clear across the country, even Globe and Mail.

By the 19th (2 days later) the only related front page headlines was the story about how Under Armour responded.

Then it was done..nothing since.

I guess since Wayne Lowry, president of the Alberta Fish and Game Association, ( the boss of the guys who would be laying the charges) has already admitted publicly that at the time the video was made it was not illegal..that pretty much ended the story.

Pretty hard to come back later with charges..after that public admission.

So as far as the media is concerned.."move along folks no story here".

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Originally Posted by MikePal

A quick look at the media/news coverage..the video hit YouTube back in June....but didn't become news worthy till Aug 17th when it was a splashed across the headlines clear across the country, even Globe and Mail.

By the 19th (2 days later) the only related front page headlines was the story about how Under Armour responded.

Then it was done..nothing since.

I guess since Wayne Lowry, president of the Alberta Fish and Game Association, ( the boss of the guys who would be laying the charges) has already admitted publicly that at the time the video was made it was not illegal..that pretty much ended the story.

Pretty hard to come back later with charges..after that public admission.

So as far as the media is concerned.."move along folks no story here".

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As it happens on CBC radio, had an Alberta Guide on Sat night, who spoke to the very hunt. He apparently has been spear hunting for the past 7 years, as it took him 2 years of practice to become proficient enough to embark on a hunt.

Not illegal at the time, may in fact become so shortly.

Anyone want to wade into the UA issue of supposedly being an active hunting company, but yet cutting sponsored people off, despite legal hunt status?

I know UA just hit my boycott list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I just pulled this wording out of the Alberta Hunting regs under the Bowhunting section...it would appear that there is a specific category or season for hunting with 'primative' weapons...



May put to rest the question of legality, I'm sure it can be argued that a spear is a 'primative' weapon.

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Got a little behind on this thread. In the primitive weapon category you still have to meet the "firearm, bow and arrow, and crossbow" stipulation, this primitive hunt is used for people such as powder-loaded rifles.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I guess that is the 'legal' loop hold..there is no specific definition for a primitive weapon.

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He misspoke, weapon is irrelevant, it's not a word used in regulations. firearm is the important word, and it is specifically defined.

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Originally Posted by seabast

If it was an illegal act, do you think we would know by now?!? Like the media wouldn't be all over it.......

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he's being investigated, they are considering charges, read more articles you'll see that it is all over the place as you suggested. obviously alberta wants this to go away, and doesn't want to make a huge fuss about it.

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

As it happens on CBC radio, had an Alberta Guide on Sat night, who spoke to the very hunt. He apparently has been spear hunting for the past 7 years, as it took him 2 years of practice to become proficient enough to embark on a hunt.

Not illegal at the time, may in fact become so shortly.

Anyone want to wade into the UA issue of supposedly being an active hunting company, but yet cutting sponsored people off, despoite legal hunt status?

i know UA just hit my boycott list.

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This is common practice, it's not only a hunting issue. Optics are everything these days, no matter how legal something is, the truth about UA, is that although they have a hunting arm, that isn't all they do, so they have to protect their brand for all the yoga enthusiasts out there too who use their other lines... it's a lot easier for a hunting only company to stand by a hunter no matter what. UA is doing the right thing unfortunately (for their bottom line at least) because hunting is a tiny branch to them, they can't risk their larger brand for the sake of hunters. If they were sponsored by cold steel instead of UA they'd be getting raises and be all over the place...

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

This is common practice, it's not only a hunting issue. Optics are everything these days, no matter how legal something is, the truth about UA, is that although they have a hunting arm, that isn't all they do, so they have to protect their brand for all the yoga enthusiasts out there too who use their other lines... it's a lot easier for a hunting only company to stand by a hunter no matter what. UA is doing the right thing unfortunately (for their bottom line at least) because hunting is a tiny branch to them, they can't risk their larger brand for the sake of hunters. If they were sponsored by cold steel instead of UA they'd be getting raises and be all over the place...

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Statement of the obvious.

I wonder if UA weighed out the hunter backlash that this would have? I'm sure their other lines ( Hockey etc) contribute more to their bottom line than hunting. Yet, there's a definite impact, should the hunting community decide to act.

I posted something along these lines in an ontario hunting group.. Specifically that "The method he used to harvest the bear didn't meet the regs or definitions under weapons." The amount of backlash I faced was laughable, considering once they all read the definition of weapon that didnt include 'Spear' alot of them quickly changed their tune.

UA isn't REALLY a "hunting" company any more than Ford or Toyota is a "hunting" company simply because they build trucks that some hunters use. UA makes clothing for ALL sports,hunting is merely a market niche and a relatively small one at that. If their marketing gurus see that this hunting issue is causing adverse PR that affects sales of all other markets,they'll throw all things "hunting" under the bus like it was snake bit.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

UA isn't REALLY a "hunting" company any more than Ford or Toyota is a "hunting" company simply because they build trucks that some hunters use. UA makes clothing for ALL sports,hunting is merely a market niche and a relatively small one at that. If their marketing gurus see that this hunting issue is causing adverse PR that affects sales of all other markets,they'll throw all things "hunting" under the bus like it was snake bit.

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Unlike Ford or Toyota, UA markets itself as a hunting company. Their product lines are distinctly designed and produced for various methods of doing so, ( bow hunting, waterfowl etc)....

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

he's being investigated, they are considering charges, read more articles you'll see that it is all over the place as you suggested. obviously alberta wants this to go away, and doesn't want to make a huge fuss about it.

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All I read mentioned "Alberta governement pledge to ban spear hunting." so we can assume it is still legal. If it isn't and they still haven't found out, how are we going to?

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Originally Posted by seabast

All I read mentioned "Alberta governement pledge to ban spear hunting." so we can assume it is still legal. If it isn't and they still haven't found out, how are we going to?

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They're just playing the PR game, whether it was their intention or not, the current regs preclude the use of a spear already. They are just going to add another bulletpoint to their "frequently asked" type section "illegal acts". which has never been a complete list, simply an overview of common problems. there is no need to change the wording of the actual laws, they won't touch them, the'll just add a warning to the guide essentially...

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Originally Posted by Miller97

I posted something along these lines in an ontario hunting group.. Specifically that "The method he used to harvest the bear didn't meet the regs or definitions under weapons." The amount of backlash I faced was laughable, considering once they all read the definition of weapon that didnt include 'Spear' alot of them quickly changed their tune.

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I hear ya.. It's not an easy sell because everyone wants to understandably tell the antis to eff off, and they want to support hunters. suggesting anything that might put you on the same side of any argument with the peta types never gets good results... but the black and white letters in the regs tend to sway most, or at least attract more sensible conversationalists/debaters... They're around here, this thread is a reasoned example of how people can talk without name calling (so far....)

99% of the idiots disappear quickly. They tend not to educate themselves before posting something based on emotion, hearsay, etc... and after they get their, "you're an idiot, what are you talking about, you're the problem with hunters" stuff out of their system, they generally have nothing left to add and disappear while the adults talk.

The number of times of I have heard anti hunters say we should have to use a spear and now someone does it and they get upset.

[QUOTE=greatwhite;985896]The number of times of I have heard anti hunters say we should have to use a spear and now someone does it and they get upset.[/QUOTE]

And for once many hunters agree with them... The mange has spread....

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Originally Posted by seabast

The mange has spread....

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I like that.....LOL...

I am not sure

So I finally found a copy of the Alberta Wildlife Act:

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/W10.pdf

Part 4 describes hunting and hunting related activities. Section 32 contains a list of what items are prohibited in hunting.

32 (1) A person shall not set out, use or have in the person’s possession for the purpose of hunting wildlife anything described in Item 1 of the Schedule.

(2) A person shall not have in the person’s possession while hunting wildlife anything described in the Schedule that is prescribed.

Section 40 gives a list of what items are prohibited in hunting certain game.
40 (1) A person shall not set out, use or have in the person’s possession for the purpose of hunting big game anything described in Item 2 of the Schedule.
(2) A person shall not have in the person's possession while hunting big game anything described in the Schedule that is prescribed.

So the way the law is written, as long as the item you are using is not on the Schedule list, you are good to use in the field.
Schedule

Items Prohibited for Hunting Purposes

Item 1

Items prohibited for hunting all wildlife

1 An arrow equipped with an explosive head.
2 A swivel set or spring gun
3 A firearm that is capable of firing more than one bullet during one pressure of the trigger or a firearm that can be altered to operate as such. This subitem prevails in the event of any conflict with the exception in subitem 10.
4 A poisonous substance described in section 32(5) or an immobilizing drug.
5 A light.
6 Repealed AR 134/2002 s17.
7 A shotgun of a gauge greater than 10 gauge.
8 A device designed to deaden the sound of the report of a firearm.
9 Recorded wildlife calls or sounds or an electronically operated calling device, except where a person is hunting
(a) migratory game birds with the use of calls or sounds that mimic snow geese, or
(b) crows, magpies, coyotes, red foxes or wolves with the use of calls or sounds that mimic any of these kinds of animal or
hares, rabbits or rodents.
10 A handgun, except a restricted firearm or a prohibited firearm of a kind that is a handgun for whose possession the holding of a license and a registration certificate is required by the Criminial Code (Canada), where a person
(a) uses the handgun to kill an animal caught in a trap, or
(b) is in possession of that handgun only for a purpose incidental to that use or the reasonable expectation of that use
11 Live wildlife

Item 2

Items prohibited for hunting big game

1 Ammunition of less than .23 caliber
2 Ammunition that contains non-expanding bullets.
3 An autoloading firearm that has a capacity of more than 5 cartridges in the magazine.
4 A shotgun having a gauge of .410 or less.
5 Any bait consisting of a food attractant, including a mineral and any representation of a food attractant.
6 Any arrow other than an arrow that has a tip that bears a head that
(a) is not intentionally designed to resist being withdrawn after it has penetrated an object, and
(b) is either (i) a solid, sharp cutting head of at least 7/8 inch in width, or (ii) a head that, when the arrow impacts, opens to present
sharp cutting edges at least 7/8 inch in width.
6.1 Any cross-bow that requires less than 100 pounds of pull to draw the string or cable to its cocked position.
7. An bow other than
(a) a cross-bow that requires 100 pounds or more of pull to draw the string or cable to its cocked position, or
(b) a bow that (i) is held, drawn and released by muscular power, and (ii) requires a pull of at least 40 pounds to draw an arrow
28 inches in length to its head.
8 A muzzle-loading firearm of less than .44 caliber.
9 Any trap that could be used to hunt big game.


The section on hunting doesn't involve any terminology of weapons when referring to the description of items allowable but refers to the items in the schedule which are not allowed to be used for hunting. Since a spear isn't currently on the list (though probably not for long), a spear must be allowed to be used for hunting. The item list isn't a FAQ of illegal items but what you can't use. The list is what is used by CO to enforce the law and judges to judge whether the law has been broken.

Dyth

You're missing the boat... Just because something isn't listed does not make it legal Dyth. You're falling into a trap. That is not a all-encompassing list, are you suggesting that i could use tannerite to hunt a moose? dynamite get a brown bear? or jump out of a tree and choke a black bear with barbed wire? Or take Elk by running them over with my boat while they cross a lake? just because it's not on the list? of course not, because AGAIN, that list is not complete. Just because something isn't specifically designated as illegal does NOT make it legal, regulations could never specify EVERY possible way of killing an animal illegally, the number is infinite. That's why they specify exactly what you can use, firearm, bow and arrow, and crossbow.

you're forget about a million other rules where a spear could fall such as abusing wildlife by not using approved legal hunting methods, the ONLY legal and approved methods of which are bow and arrow, crossbow, and firearm. as i have stated over and over and over, this is the fundamental and foundational regulation for big game hunting in ablerta, it's the first regulation listed in EVERY big game category, there are ONLY two LEGAL hunts, and the ONLY means you are allowed to use are bow and arrow, crossbow, and firearm.

Go hunt Caribou with mortars, and tell the judge "well it's not on the illegal list" and let me know how that goes.

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

You're missing the boat... Just because something isn't listed does not make it legal Dyth. You're falling into a trap. That is not a all-encompassing list, are you suggesting that i could use tannerite to hunt a moose? dynamite get a brown bear? or jump out of a tree and choke a black bear with barbed wire? Or take Elk by running them over with my boat while they cross a lake? just because it's not on the list? of course not, because AGAIN, that list is not complete. Just because something isn't specifically designated as illegal does NOT make it legal, regulations could never specify EVERY possible way of killing an animal illegally, the number is infinite. That's why they specify exactly what you can use, firearm, bow and arrow, and crossbow.

you're forget about a million other rules where a spear could fall such as abusing wildlife by not using approved legal hunting methods, the ONLY legal and approved methods of which are bow and arrow, crossbow, and firearm. as i have stated over and over and over, this is the fundamental and foundational regulation for big game hunting in ablerta, it's the first regulation listed in EVERY big game category, there are ONLY two LEGAL hunts, and the ONLY means you are allowed to use are bow and arrow, crossbow, and firearm.

Go hunt Caribou with mortars, and tell the judge "well it's not on the illegal list" and let me know how that goes.

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Actually I am not missing the boat. You fail to understand the law. Whether you like it or not, our laws in this country follows the constitutional principal of English law which is everything which is not forbidden is allowed. Our country makes laws about what you can do by expressing what is not allowed.

As for your examples, dynamite is a federally restricted item, you can't use a boat to kill, injure or harass wildlife, tannerite using your example actually happens in some of the US with feral pigs and I don't see anything in the game laws to suggest it is otherwise here (granted people probably haven't done it so the laws didn't have to change), and if you want to choke a bear with barbed wire, best of luck as it isn't illegal but most unwise. As for mortars, the game laws wouldn't be stopping you but the federal government as it is a prohibited weapon per the criminal code.

Which laws are you referring to which would incorporate wildlife? Wildlife law follows the various conservation acts (in whatever form they are in) hence the terminology of hunting as harassing, killing or injuring wildlife and then derive the laws to protect wildlife from that definition. Wildlife has no rights under any other law. That is why the wildlife law (or acts) are in place.

You want so desperately for this hunt to be illegal you are willing to ignore the law as it is written. The law in Alberta doesn't qualify illegal items as bow and arrow, crossbow and firearm. You are wrong. It qualifies illegal items under that list because that list is in the law. Slingshots are a method of hunting which is approved under Alberta law (and Ontario law too). They aren't a bow and arrow, crossbow or firearm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

You're missing the boat... Just because something isn't listed does not make it legal Dyth. You're falling into a trap. That is not a all-encompassing list, are you suggesting that i could use tannerite to hunt a moose? dynamite get a brown bear? or jump out of a tree and choke a black bear with barbed wire? Or take Elk by running them over with my boat while they cross a lake? just because it's not on the list? of course not, because AGAIN, that list is not complete. Just because something isn't specifically designated as illegal does NOT make it legal, regulations could never specify EVERY possible way of killing an animal illegally, the number is infinite. That's why they specify exactly what you can use, firearm, bow and arrow, and crossbow.

you're forget about a million other rules where a spear could fall such as abusing wildlife by not using approved legal hunting methods, the ONLY legal and approved methods of which are bow and arrow, crossbow, and firearm. as i have stated over and over and over, this is the fundamental and foundational regulation for big game hunting in ablerta, it's the first regulation listed in EVERY big game category, there are ONLY two LEGAL hunts, and the ONLY means you are allowed to use are bow and arrow, crossbow, and firearm.

Go hunt Caribou with mortars, and tell the judge "well it's not on the illegal list" and let me know how that goes.

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Good grief Trapjack...

You seem to have a one track mind, and now are on the verge of insulting others who don't share your "opinion".

1. The province of Alberta has openly admitted that the use of a spear constituted a loophole in the game regs. Which part of that did you miss in the myriad of articles posted on the same matter?

2. No charges were laid, and no charge will be laid for the same reason.

3. The Province of Alberta has publicly stated that they will be amending their game laws to encompass the use of spears. Why on earth would that be necessary if, ( according to you) that it was illegal, and plainly so in the first place?

Throw your credentials on the table friend. You're not an Alberta CO, nor are you a practicing member of the Bar in this Country. Your opinion, while argued fairly well, is just that.

You even admitted that he was legal in another thread! Your words:

[COLOR=#333333]There is nothing redeemable about that statement, and it's filled with inaccuracies and outright idiocy.
[COLOR=#333333]Legal hunter, yes. Someone that any of us should want as our most vocal and visible member? certainly not... And unfortunately to the world on todays date, that's what he is, our most vocal and visible fraternity member. and it's embarrassing. He's why we have to defend ourselves, idiots like him that make the most noise and scream the loudest.

The only one "missing the boat" is the one who stands firmly on the shore insisting that the tides not rising. ( metaphor intended).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

Actually I am not missing the boat. You fail to understand the law. Whether you like it or not, our laws in this country follows the constitutional principal of English law which is everything which is not forbidden is allowed. Our country makes laws about what you can do by expressing what is not allowed.

As for your examples, dynamite is a federally restricted item, you can't use a boat to kill, injure or harass wildlife, tannerite using your example actually happens in some of the US with feral pigs and I don't see anything in the game laws to suggest it is otherwise here (granted people probably haven't done it so the laws didn't have to change), and if you want to choke a bear with barbed wire, best of luck as it isn't illegal but most unwise. As for mortars, the game laws wouldn't be stopping you but the federal government as it is a prohibited weapon per the criminal code.

Which laws are you referring to which would incorporate wildlife? Wildlife law follows the various conservation acts (in whatever form they are in) hence the terminology of hunting as harassing, killing or injuring wildlife and then derive the laws to protect wildlife from that definition. Wildlife has no rights under any other law. That is why the wildlife law (or acts) are in place.

You want so desperately for this hunt to be illegal you are willing to ignore the law as it is written. The law in Alberta doesn't qualify illegal items as bow and arrow, crossbow and firearm. You are wrong. It qualifies illegal items under that list because that list is in the law. Slingshots are a method of hunting which is approved under Alberta law (and Ontario law too). They aren't a bow and arrow, crossbow or firearm.

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i'm not even going to bother reading your entire message once again... let's start with your first paragraph, and move along... My post was only to combat yours, in which you stated that the lists you posted were all-encompassing, THEY ARE NOT, because laws exist OUTSIDE of those lists that apply to hunting. Like animal abuse regulations, which are not written in to your precious lists but still apply. YOU LISTS ARE NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL, STOP QUOTING THEM AS GOSPEL, good lord....
your previous post was a "well it's not on the list" so i stating things that aren't on your lists that are still illegal, proving that your lists are not the entire story....
furthermore THE LAW DOES SAY THAT YOU CAN ONLY BIG GAME HUNT WITH A FIREARM, CROSSBOW, OR BOW AND ARROW, do you dispute that?????? because it's extremely clear and at the top of every big game hunt in the regulations, what part of that can't you understand...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Good grief Trapjack...

You seem to have a one track mind, and now are on the verge of insulting others who don't share your "opinion".

1. The province of Alberta has openly admitted that the use of a spear constituted a loophole in the game regs. Which part of that did you miss in the myriad of articles posted on the same matter?

2. No charges were laid, and no charge will be laid for the same reason.

3. The Province of Alberta has publicly stated that they will be amending their game laws to encompass the use of spears. Why on earth would that be necessary if, ( according to you) that it was illegal, and plainly so in the first place?

Throw your credentials on the table friend. You're not an Alberta CO, nor are you a practicing member of the Bar in this Country. Your opinion, while argued fairly well, is just that.

You even admitted that he was legal in another thread! Your words:

[COLOR=#333333]There is nothing redeemable about that statement, and it's filled with inaccuracies and outright idiocy.
[COLOR=#333333]Legal hunter, yes. Someone that any of us should want as our most vocal and visible member? certainly not... And unfortunately to the world on todays date, that's what he is, our most vocal and visible fraternity member. and it's embarrassing. He's why we have to defend ourselves, idiots like him that make the most noise and scream the loudest.

The only one "missing the boat" is the one who stands firmly on the shore insisting that the tides not rising. ( metaphor intended).

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it's not opinion. the regulations state unequivocally that you can only big game hunt with a firearm, crossbow or bow and arrow, unless you can find some legislation that counters that fact? because i have yet to hear it/see it... thank you for letting me know what i do or don't do for a living, more proof you're just a assumption artist with no facts... the public campaign to combat this event is not the same as the word of law. alberta is attempting to distance itself, and make this go away as quietly as possible, political plays are not the same as written law...

show me anything that counters the simple black and white regulation that states that it is only legal to hunt in alberta for big game with a firearm, crossbow or bow and arrow. then we can talk. i'm the only one here stating relevant fact that is incontrovertible. It's not about "how you read the regs" or "their intended purpose" etc etc, it's black and white, those are the only legal means to take big game in alberta.

until you can post legislation that counters those direct quotes from the regulations, there is nothing to talk about. the regs are clear on what's legal.

It's at the top of every big game page, seems pretty clear and obvious? am i the only one that looks at this and knows exactly what's legal and not? obviously spear is NOT
http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/...psjqawelvc.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

My post was only to combat yours, in which you stated that the lists you posted were all-encompassing, THEY ARE NOT, because laws exist OUTSIDE of those lists that apply to hunting. Like animal abuse regulations....

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Which regulations are those?

Alberta's Animal Protection Act does not apply to wildlife. Neither do the animal cruelty provisions of the Criminal Code of Canada.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

... furthermore THE LAW DOES SAY THAT YOU CAN ONLY BIG GAME HUNT WITH A FIREARM, CROSSBOW, OR BOW AND ARROW, do you dispute that?????? because it's extremely clear and at the top of every big game hunt in the regulations, what part of that can't you understand...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

the regulations state unequivocally that you can only big game hunt with a firearm, crossbow or bow and arrow, unless you can find some legislation that counters that fact?

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Dyth quoted the law itself, and it does not in fact say that. And he is 100% correct that anything not prohibited is allowed.

"The regulations," as published in summary form, are not the law. They aren't even the regulations. They're a simplified summary published to aid the public, and that summary may not have anticipated that somebody would hunt a bear with a spear. Something written on a government website is, similarly, not the law. The law is found in the law itself, the regulations made under that law, and in case law.

These are the sources you need:
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/W10.pdf
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/1997_143.pdf
https://www.canlii.org/

Unless you can point to something in one of those sources that bans hunting other than with firearms and bows, I'm going to suggest you desist.

TrapJack !

Why are you still arguing here with us on this forum ?

Your arguments should be with your own Provincial Gov. as they are the ones that make up and enforce the laws of that Province.

We here in Ontario have our own laws which are in a lot of cases different than yours .
You are beating a dead horse on an issue which you have lost many posts ago.

By any chance , have you been banned from posting on a forum such as this , but is from Alberta? and now have come over to this forum and try to convince us that we are all wrong and you are right?

Also , by any chance are you perhaps "BlackWolf " reincarnated and back on this forum ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrapJack

it's not opinion. the regulations state unequivocally that you can only big game hunt with a firearm, crossbow or bow and arrow, unless you can find some legislation that counters that fact? because i have yet to hear it/see it... thank you for letting me know what i do or don't do for a living, more proof you're just a assumption artist with no facts... the public campaign to combat this event is not the same as the word of law. alberta is attempting to distance itself, and make this go away as quietly as possible, political plays are not the same as written law...

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1. No they don't. It's in fact been pointed out several times for you.

2. I'm not an "assumption artist". I deal with all different facets of law enforcement, as well as crown and judiciary. If you were a lawyer, you would have cited case law like Welsh did. If you were a CO, you would have bowed out of this conversation pages ago, as a professional would have been compelled to. No, a review of your post history on this forum reveals you to be long on legal opinion in more than just this matter, but yet nothing backing it up.

3. You compound your position by my earlier post, where you said in another thread that it WAS a legal hunt, but not good for optics....so which is it? You seem to flip flop between your different threads?

4. You then further post what the province of Alberta is doing. Yet, nothing backing that up either.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Also , by any chance are you perhaps "BlackWolf " reincarnated and back on this forum ?

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Good one. I expect if he is he has learned not to reference God or shooting skills.

finally put an end to this...:

Quote:

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EDMONTON — An Alberta government spokesperson says a U.S. hunter who posted a video of himself baiting and then killing a bear with a spear will not face charges.

The spokesperson with Alberta Justice said the investigation into the video, posted on YouTube in June by hunter Josh Bowmar, is done and there was no evidence to suggest any law was broken.

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http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/after-inv...pear-1.3041205

Trapjack?......*crickets chirping*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

finally put an end to this...:



http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/after-inv...pear-1.3041205

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Isn't what was said a week or two ago, "The hunt was legal".
Then the antis stuck their noise in it and the government had to show it listens....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

Which regulations are those?

Alberta's Animal Protection Act does not apply to wildlife. Neither do the animal cruelty provisions of the Criminal Code of Canada.





Dyth quoted the law itself, and it does not in fact say that. And he is 100% correct that anything not prohibited is allowed.

"The regulations," as published in summary form, are not the law. They aren't even the regulations. They're a simplified summary published to aid the public, and that summary may not have anticipated that somebody would hunt a bear with a spear. Something written on a government website is, similarly, not the law. The law is found in the law itself, the regulations made under that law, and in case law.

These are the sources you need:
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/W10.pdf
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/1997_143.pdf
https://www.canlii.org/

Unless you can point to something in one of those sources that bans hunting other than with firearms and bows, I'm going to suggest you desist.

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Not entirely correct, Criminal Code offence of causing unnecessary suffering does apply to wildlife !

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...l_cruelty.html

I stand corrected on that point ... but of course one would then have to prove that the standard of unnecessary suffering applies here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

I stand corrected on that point ... but of course one would then have to prove that the standard of unnecessary suffering applies here.

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And one would also have to prove that the hunter was willfully permitting the bear's suffering/pain/injury. As I argued in the other thread, evidence of the bear's intestines on the ground does not negate a moral wound. The spear's cutting head was 5 inches in diameter which is a lot of cutting area when the spearhead starts to move around as the bear moves. If hitting the intestines of an animal while hunting is a crime (either by accident or after the fact), there have been a lot of hunters who have broken the law.

One other piece of legislation we have to abide by is the Firearms Act.

NEWS FLASH: [COLOR=#333333]An Alberta government spokesperson says a U.S. hunter who posted a video of himself baiting and then killing a bear with a spear will not face charges.[COLOR=#333333]The spokesperson with Alberta Justice said the investigation into the video, posted on YouTube in June by hunter Josh Bowmar, is done and there was no evidence to suggest any law was broken.

This is not to say they liked what he did, and intend to make a regulation against spearing bears. I wonder of other provinces will as well.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut