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Hey guys reg question
After you have shot a deer tag it then this deer will not leave the property will be hung and butchered on site
Question is first time I have ever heard this
But was told by a friend the head and hide has to be accessible till the end of the hunt true or false
We don't like to hang it with head attached
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Your best bet is to phone the MNR ask for a CO and get the answer straight from them vs from a bunch of armchair experts...me included!
Without even looking at the regulations just using common sense would help out.The MNR just want to establish if you took the animal legally and had the right tag.In order to do that you would need to keep the parts that would establish this.For instance if the tag was gone and questioned would you remember the day date and time you tagged the animal.Its like taking a bass fishing,you fillet the fish and transport home without the skin on one side.How does the MNR know what they have in front of them.
In the Ontario Hunting Regulations (https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/980665), under Part 2 (Licenses), section 17 states:
17. (1) The holder of a licence who has killed a moose, deer, elk, bear, wild turkey, wolf or coyote shall, (a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with or purchased for the licence or licence tag to the game wildlife in the manner indicated in the instructions that accompany the seal; and
(b) keep the seal attached to the game wildlife while it is being transported and, in the case of wild turkey, keep the seal attached to the wild turkey until it is prepared for consumption. O. Reg. 276/05, s. 1; O. Reg. 529/10, s. 2 (1); O. Reg. 48/11, s. 1.
So you have to keep the seal attached to the deer until it is prepared for consumption after which you can dispose of the hide and seal. Since seals are either attached to antlers or placed through the ear, cutting off the head is not allowed.
What we do is cut ear off with tag and it's kept bury the rest is ear enough to get DNA sample to match to carcass don't know but other parts likely keep better buried then in a plastic barrow
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I would suggest you are going overboard. Unless you involved in a major investigation, the MNRF really doesn't have the resources to do DNA matching for every deer harvested in Ontario so the chances they are going to ask you to provide DNA samples for any deer taken by you or your group is extremely low.Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
Like Dyth has posted....for the past 50+ yrs the camp, as do many others around here, have always done it the same way. CO'c are encountered ever once in a while and no one has ever had a problem.
The camps skin the deer, removes the heads, put them in a bag, throw them into the truck with the skinned carcasses and transports them to the butcher.
The carcasses are removed there and the heads stay on the truck....the butcher won't let anything with hair in his shop area. He has no requirement to see or record the tag so he doesn't.
When I hunt alone, I butcher them myself and the tag is on the deer for less than 30 minutes. I tag it at kill site, transport out of the bush to my barn, up on the gambrel, it's skinned will still warm, the head (tag) removed. If it's an evening hunt, the deer hangs overnight and is prepared for consumption in the morning. Since the deer is not being transported, no need to keep the head/tag with the deer and I can dispose of it with the entrails etc.
Sounds like my situation. Hangs in barn until aged enough, then head gets removed and the carcass halfed so I can handle it. (The hide came off warm as soon as it was hung).
MikePal,Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I would make the argument that once the skinning begins, a hunter has begun processing the meat for consumption (whether or not the hunter completes the butching process or has someone else complete it) and at that point the tag no longer is required to be with the meat. Not implying you are doing anything wrong by bringing the tags with you to butcher and leaving them on the truck, I am just stating how I believe the law is written.
Dyth
Oh your absolutely right...I think they began doing that as basic 'cover your fart hole', so that if you get stopped by a CO, the answers are in the bag, so to speak. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Is the deer or moose, not already been prepared for consumption once you have taken out the liver and heart and ate it right there at camp for your first meal of that animal?
I have yet find a butcher who will accept a deer without a tag for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Absolutely no legal requirement for them to check. Do they ask to see your ID too ? Do they write it into a log book ? Who do they show it to ? No CO would have any interest in it, meaningless info.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Do they check your PAL too ? :)
Never meet one that did...none of the 5 butchers around here care who shot the deer...none of their concern. Once the carcass is on their property, in their possession, it's being processed.
(b) keep the seal attached to the game wildlife while it is being transported and, in the case of wild turkey, keep the seal attached to the wild turkey until it is prepared for consumption
Gotta look at the law and read it as it is interpreted by a LEO.....Sec 17(1)(b) reads.... keep the seal attached while it is being transported.....the rest seems to deal with Wild Turkey only. That is my interpretation, but I'm not the CO.
That's why we throw the heads in the truck...
However..it's not the intent of the law to restrict hunters from skinning their deer at the camp in preparation to transport it to a butcher. Since that removes any identification as to the gender, there is no need for the tag to exist anymore and the hunter who shot the deer may no longer even be in possession of it while it's being transported.
But some anal CO might get take it a little too literal, so it's best to be prepared.
In the latest OOD MAG. Fall/2016 PAGE 16 " The Spoils Of Success" something very interesting stands out.
David Critchlow says "that while transporting carcasses, the tag must remain attached untill it's left at it final destination.
This was under "options for disposing of carcasses"
So I see that by him saying this , the tag must always remain on and with the carcass, no matter what, this is straight from "the horses mouth".
Yes but it can be argued that the 'pole' at the hunt camp is the final destination..that once the deer is skinned there, sex become indeterminate and it is no longer a deer, but a meat carcass.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Far too many scenario's and way to many what ifs....common sense has to prevail eventually.
We have never had trouble, nor has anyone at the local camps or even stories from the butcher who lend any credence that it is an issue to carry skinned deer with no tags.
Well Mike , you can argue that with David Critchlow any way you want , up,down left or right , it is yours to argue, but theirs to decide.Quote:
[COLOR=#333333]Yes but it can be argued that the 'pole' at the hunt camp is the final destination..that once the deer is skinned there, sex become indeterminate and it is no longer a deer, but a meat carcass.
I side with MikePal on this. Lets say I shoot a bull moose and debone all the meat in the bush (after I attach the seal to the tendon of the leg leaving skin and the scrotal sac attached of course). The seal, leg with tendon and sac is now separate from the meat but still attached to the carcass. I can leave the carcass in the bush (with the seal etc attached as per the directions) and transport the meat. The seal is remaining attached to the carcass while the transport is occurring and (in my view) according to the law. Same with deer, etc in similar situations.
That may well be the letter of the law, but I'm sure you realize that if you're stopped at the roadside, on your way home, you're going to have some "splainin" to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Yup all the way back into the bush to view the carcass and tag,if tagged by someone else all those details.....I think I will side with Mr.[COLOR=#333333]David Critchlow on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmoose
Did Jaycee and Gilroy actually agree on something? I thought hell would freeze over before that happened. Leafs fans might actually get a Stanley Cup in a few years.
That quote is taken out of context, it's taken from an article about the proper disposal of carcass (hide, bones, legs head etc) ..not transporting meat to the butcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
:D :) :silly:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
That is what I said in the post , as to where it was taken from; "This was under "options for disposing of carcasses"Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Thinking you know the letter of the law is a recipe for trouble. The only place you can argue the law is in court, and the JP is going to base his judgment on the intent of the law, which is to make sure the CO can determine meat was legally taken.
I think it's obvious how that one would go.
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Well then if we take that literally, to the letter of the law as he perceives it, the tag should be with the meat till it's in your freezer, it's final destination.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
That would mean the butcher would be responsible to keep the tag with the meat while he has it during the processing , because it's not it's final destination yet.
See how silly it can get.
Laws don't cover all generalities.
Guys keep it on in transport....when it gets to where its gonna be butchered you've met the requirements. If its been processed then it is no longer game wildlife....essentially...if it looks like a deer still and your transporting it.....keep the tag on it
On a muzzle-loader deer hunt last fall in NW Ontario we were processing deer more or less under the supervision of the local CO, who is a close friend of mine. The deer would be tagged in the field (obviously) and then brought back to the lodge we were renting. If we hung the deer for a night or two before butchering, we would leave the tag attached until we were physically processing the deer. If we butchered the deer immediately after shooting it, the head would come off before the deer was hung neck-down for skinning. The CO did suggest that we keep the tagged ears (they were all antlerless) in the freezer with the cut and wrapped meat for the long trip home.Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
In your case, I would keep the head (and tag) attached if you plan to hang the deer for a few days before butchering it. If you're butchering them right after the kill, I would go ahead and remove the head before hanging it. As far as keeping the head and hide, I would only keep the ear or the antlers, whatever the tag is attached to. This may or may not be right according to internet law, but it was fine with the CO up north. It also might be going above and beyond, as you probably would be fine to hang the deer with the head and hide removed for a few days before butchering it, but the CO would have no way of knowing for sure if you were planning to butcher the deer yourselves or not. The way we went about it left no room for interpretation with the CO. Also, being my friend, I didn't want to put him in an awkward situation.
When it comes to this type of situation, ask yourself how things would look to a CO coming to check in on you. If there's room for them to speculate on what you may or may not be doing, they'll speculate. If you make it obvious that you're doing everything you can to be compliant but maybe you've overlooked a thing or two, they'll usually overlook that thing or two as well. Our moose gang once tagged the wrong quarter of the moose by accident (scrotal sac left on the untagged side). Because it was clear that we were trying to follow the rules and someone had just made an honest mistake, the CO gave it a pass.
There certainly is a difference between the "black & white" of the written law, the "intention of the law" and the "common sense" of the law. Unfortunately the only master of who is legal or not is the judge. Even some officers disagree with the interpretation of the law and therefore will enforce it differently under different circumstances. Agreed that a person should do what makes the most sense in trying to abide by the law but just because someone is charged with an offence does not mean they are guilty. That will be determined by the judge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
amen red foxx.....Co's have discretion as well, if your trying to abide by the law most LE will cut you the slack and treat as a learning experience.....as long as your not a repeat offender I suppose.
For the longest time there was a requirement if you were transporting any portion of a kill from the camp to your home and were stopped by a CO you had to be prepared to state:Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
*the name of the hunter who sealed the animal;
*the hunting licence number and validation tag number under which the animal was claimed; and,
*the WMU in which it was taken.
I suspect being aware of David C.'s bent on enforcement, it wouldn't be a bad idea to keep this information at your finger, even thought this stuff is no longer printed in the regulations.
As for the freezer being a safeguard against any repercussion, if you toss a migratory bird into the freezer for future consumption. It better have on it one fully feather wing. The wing is only to be removed, just before you put it in the pot to cook it.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
That's all they've ever asked for at check points coming home from moose camp each year. After hanging the animal, we skin and quarter for transport to the butcher. The person who drives the animal home isn't always the person who took the shot - this has never been an issue as long as the details of who, what, where and when are documented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
FishFrenzy
Sort of hard to keep a fully feathered wing on the bird when it is in a sausage, here is the actual wording.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Once you get it to your residence then you do not need to keep that feathered wing on it anymore.
"11 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall possess or transport a migratory bird unless at least one fully feathered wing is attached to the bird.
- (2) The wing and the plumage thereon may be removed from a migratory bird
- (a) when the bird is prepared for immediate cooking; or
- (b) after the bird is taken to the residence of its owner for preservation."
Poke a hole in the sausage casing for the wing to stick through. What's the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
LOL.Now,that's funny right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
If you skin, quater, share the game meat within the hunting party, etc. & then drive home or to the butcher: have info of the tag applied on the animal the meat is comming from, and you will be OKQuote:
Originally Posted by FishFrenzy
Thanks for this Fox. I guess I was thinking of a CO's powers of search, if he start checking out a freezer, for possession limits, he'd need some way to ID species. It's good to learn his search powers end at the freezer, door.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut