Filing a compliment or complaint against a Conservation Officer.

Folks,

99 percent of all CO's are awesome and dedicate folks. They have a very difficult job to do out there and I thank them for that. At times they take a lot of abuse from the public - especially about moose tags:party:.

Police have a compliment and complains process and so do Conservation Officers. If they go above and beyond in their efforts, they should be rewarded. If their actions or words are questionable, they should be questioned and corrected on their actions and/or words. Public accountability and transparency is everything in today's world.

I was searching the MNRF site and found this link and thought it would be of interest to the community.

https://www.ontario.ca/form/make-com...vation-officer

If you see a CO doing a great job this fall then lets reward them. Be safe and have a great hunt.

Cheers,

Musky

Fully agree..people seem awfully fast to fire off letters when they are unhappy....but rarely take the time to see that the guy gets an 'ada boy' when it's deserved.

Good reminder and thanks for the link..

Been there. Done that. The CO and his supervisor both thanked me for the positive note. The system works.

On the rare occasion you do get a poorly behaved CO you could contact the ontario ombudsman but the new one is a liberal appointee and not like andre marin who enjoyed making police officers and anyone who carries a gun accountable.

By in part Cos are just doing their job occasionally though one has a agenda which may be influenced by personal gain...

Dont kid yourself these COs have a reputation in the MNR and its no surprise...

Lets just say hypothethically a CO was part of a camp in a remote area and anytime anyone fished that lake he would change into his CO outfit and start watching you and harass you with rules that werent in the regulations because he basically didnt want you on his lake...

It happens folks

By change into his outfit i mean he would not be on duty.. But be fishing himself at their camp...And then harass you with rules like that it if 4 guys are fishing and anyone keeps more than your limit of 2 you cant agrregate or party fish.. But not exceed the groups total.

He sprung that on us. Im like heres the regs show me where it says that

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Originally Posted by Monster29/66

By change into his outfit i mean he would not be on duty.. But be fishing himself at their camp...And then harass you with rules like that it if 4 guys are fishing and anyone keeps more than your limit of 2 you cant agrregate or party fish.. But not exceed the groups total.

He sprung that on us. Im like heres the regs show me where it says that

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He's not harassing you since you can't party fish. Catch and keep rules are pretty clear.

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Originally Posted by Monster29/66

By change into his outfit i mean he would not be on duty.. But be fishing himself at their camp...And then harass you with rules like that it if 4 guys are fishing and anyone keeps more than your limit of 2 you cant agrregate or party fish.. But not exceed the groups total.

He sprung that on us. Im like heres the regs show me where it says that

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No such thing as party fishing or group totals...Pretty clear one, man one limit...

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

He's not harassing you since you can't party fish. Catch and keep rules are pretty clear.

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Indeed.

One man's enforcement, is another man's harassment. I always thank anyone-everyone who is out checking for rule breakers, because I want them out there.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

He's not harassing you since you can't party fish. Catch and keep rules are pretty clear.

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I know the rules of the forum.
Forbidden to encourage or flaunt breaking the law.
But....


100% of people I have fished with in the last 30+ years all Party Fish.
It's part of the "culture".
Shared catch is part of the camaraderie of the day.
Anyone trying to push this rule will quickly find themselves persona non grata.
Consider this: If fishing was slow and one d00shb@g catches a limit but another guy caught nothing legal---the DB goes home with his limit and the other guy has to stop to buy chicken on the way home--- guaranteed the DB never gets asked to go fishing again.

Rigid application of "No Party Fishing" is a regulation that needs to change.

Best part is he spent 4 hrs after checking us making sure we didnt, please show me in regs where u cant ?

Imagine this, were on a lake where catching 40 trout a day is no problem but 32 of them are gonna be caught and released cuz in the slot..... What if one angler catches the 8 legal sized fish and the other 3 guys catch fish not in the slot...

I guess anglers could reel fish up to the hole and once determined that its not in the slot trade his rod for the net with another angler.,.

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Originally Posted by johny

I know the rules of the forum.
Forbidden to encourage or flaunt breaking the law.
But....


100% of people I have fished with in the last 30+ years all Party Fish.
It's part of the "culture".
Shared catch is part of the camaraderie of the day.
Anyone trying to push this rule will quickly find themselves persona non grata.
Consider this: If fishing was slow and one d00shb@g catches a limit but another guy caught nothing legal---the DB goes home with his limit and the other guy has to stop to buy chicken on the way home--- guaranteed the DB never gets asked to go fishing again.

Rigid application of "No Party Fishing" is a regulation that needs to change.

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That is a guy sharing his limit with you , which is a lot different than him catching another limit for you as well.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

That is a guy sharing his limit with you , which is a lot different than him catching another limit for you as well.

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Maybe.
If you gift the fish to someone in while you are in the boat--it's called party fishing.
If you gift the fish to someone when your feet on the boat launch-- it's just a gift.
It is still a regulation that needs to be altered to conform with the social culture of fishing in a group.

You can party hunt for moose, deer and bear but not grouse. And you cannot party fish --but most everyone does.
I do agree with Johnny. There's little uniformity in the regs and the intent for such variation needs to be justified.
I was never, and never will be an advocate for slot sizes or size limitations, especially for trout when mortality can be higher than if you took the first fish caught for a limit.
Berating a C.O. for having to enforce these questionable laws is going after the wrong person.

johny and sawbill hit the nail on the head: there is an unnecessary level of complexity in our regs (both hunting and fishing) that serves no purpose.
well, maybe it does to those who always like to lecture others - and it would be only natural that somebody who made a real effort to decipher the various regs/laws/by-laws that could possibly apply to a given (often hypothetical) situation to get some credit for this exercise.
long story short: complexity is the greatest enemy of compliance.
other jurisdictions simplified regulations successfully. we on the other hand defend the current state (just because it's always been that way - not because our regs make much sense)

It's tough to watch a good steelheader handing trout off to his picket line full of buddies that can't fish. They come along because they know they're going home with fish - skill or no skill. Steelhead are underseige in some streams in S On so they lowered the limit to 2 fish. Doesn't make much difference if you're party fishing with a crew. Warm water species seem to be better at handling over harvest.

Maybe to be consistent they should get rid of all party harvesting. that would simplify the rules for everyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johny

Maybe.
If you gift the fish to someone in while you are in the boat--it's called party fishing.
If you gift the fish to someone when your feet on the boat launch-- it's just a gift.
It is still a regulation that needs to be altered to conform with the social culture of fishing in a group.

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if you gift a fish in the boat and you are both within your daily and possession limits it doesn't mean you are guilty of party fishing however it counts against both your limits so doesn't help either of you for that particular day. It does however free up one in your possession limit if you are fishing the next day. If you gift a fish when you are on land it's the same deal, it still counts against your daily limit.
The social culture of sharing fish within a group I agree with and do so all the time however it has to be within the set limits. You do so to share with your friends not to circumvent the daily limits.
I agree that some hunting and fishing regs could be a little more clear and the fact that there are 4563863947499 different WMUs drives me nut. But the daily/possession limit rules and the party fishing rules seem pretty clear. Lots of people disagree with them or ignore them but that doesn't mean they aren't clear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johny

I know the rules of the forum.
Forbidden to encourage or flaunt breaking the law.
But....


100% of people I have fished with in the last 30+ years all Party Fish.
It's part of the "culture".
Shared catch is part of the camaraderie of the day.
Anyone trying to push this rule will quickly find themselves persona non grata.
Consider this: If fishing was slow and one d00shb@g catches a limit but another guy caught nothing legal---the DB goes home with his limit and the other guy has to stop to buy chicken on the way home--- guaranteed the DB never gets asked to go fishing again.

Rigid application of "No Party Fishing" is a regulation that needs to change.

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Look as with all rules its because enough people took advantage and a law has been created. Its about preventing abuse where one guy will catch his limit of fish run in "gift" his fish and go out and catch more. Your allowed to keep 1 days limit of fish you can give it away but you can't retain more than 1 limit of fish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monster29/66

Best part is he spent 4 hrs after checking us making sure we didnt, please show me in regs where u cant ?

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http://www.outdoorcanada.ca/record-5...-investigation
If you can party fish this guy would be a Hero since you can't party fish this guy is a zero.
Must have been a reason he was watching you because really so would I.

If you cant differentiate between party hunting for moose and any sort of fishing then you should stop fishing and hunting altogether

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Originally Posted by DanO

Maybe to be consistent they should get rid of all party harvesting. that would simplify the rules for everyone.

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Originally Posted by blasted_saber

If you cant differentiate between party hunting for moose and any sort of fishing then you should stop fishing and hunting altogether

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Agreed! Every year we see the same comments towards party hunting. I would bet that those who are quick to slam party hunting have never been a part of a group hunt for big game

Remember the days when only the cow or bull tag holder could actually pull the trigger on one of those critters. I wonder how much abuse there was to that law even though the law was black and white??

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Look as with all rules its because enough people took advantage and a law has been created....

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However, that is not the end to that story! Laws are only worth a thing if they are followed. More laws and foremost more complex laws mean people will follow them less.
Does anyone really believe that the average guy who buys a fishing licence at CT, will read the regs cover to cover?
Does anyone really believe that more than a few percent of those who actually try will holistically understand them?
Does anyone really believe that party fishing is a concern for our fish?
There a thousands out there who give a **** about the regs in the first place, because of their race. No policy maker dares to tackle that issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

However, that is not the end to that story! Laws are only worth a thing if they are followed. More laws and foremost more complex laws mean people will follow them less.
Does anyone really believe that the average guy who buys a fishing licence at CT, will read the regs cover to cover?
Does anyone really believe that more than a few percent of those who actually try will holistically understand them?
Does anyone really believe that party fishing is a concern for our fish?
There a thousands out there who give a **** about the regs in the first place, because of their race. No policy maker dares to tackle that issue.

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So what the heck are you saying?
Since the majority don't follow the rules we should have no rules?
How the heck are we supposed to control abuse?

What is so complex as you are allowed to catch and keep X number of fish a day period.
You can eat them, give them away but you can not catch and keep X plus 1 for a buddy.

People are by nature self centered and would rather screw over someone else in order to cater to their own self indulgent nature.
Hence its not the rules that are the problem its the people and the reason we need CO's out there to monitor and regulate individuals who creatively interpret the rules out there for there own selfish reasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Hence its not the rules that are the problem its the people and the reason we need CO's out there to monitor and regulate individuals who creatively interpret the rules out there for there own selfish reasons.

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That's very well put....you're right.

yes, people are self centered and no CO nor pages and pages of regulations will change that.

everyone who mingles once in a while with "the locals", would have heard interesting stories...
the response I got most often for a careful attempt in pointing out that this is not exactly what the regs read, was how long they (and everyone they know) are doing that (i.e. never read or understood the regs). typically, there is mentioning that after all they never saw a CO out in the lake anyway.

what I'm trying to get at is that just writing something on paper does not change behaviour.
so there are two options:
a) brutal enforcement (which we cannot afford) or
b) getting people to voluntarily comply to common sense rules that are proportionate to the risk/impact on natural resources and public safety (along with reasonable enforcement)

changing people's behaviour is not as impossible as it sounds; it's however a very different approach, which requires (among other things) a different level of education on the topic

look at it this way, a person well educated on the topic at hand does not need a lot of regulations. the more you give them, the more time they will spend evaluating them to find a work around. such "misinterpretations" (if done often enough) would then lead to more complex rules. Kind of, if one bandaid didn't fix the bleeding put another one and another one on it again - and while you are at it, another couple of over here, just in case you cut yourself down the road).
conversely, those who don't have sufficient understanding of a certain topic will often get lost in (rather irrelevant / low impact) details and not be able to comply.
so, who wins from having complex regulations? certainly not our natural resources nor its users

Mingling with the locals is pretty interesting and has brought up some interesting topics in the past ie Gaming the System where a lot of locals have wife,s girlfriends apply for tags when they probably will not be afield.City folks do this also.

But some of the old notions are to me just plain wrong,in a conversation in the Moose camp last week it was suggested that if a guy needed to take 3 or 4 deer a year to feed his family,then so be it.

This idea has been supported on here by many locals and again to me its just plain wrong and really,really out of date. Back in the day when a guy might have "poached" these deer to feed his family,there was not the social safety net we have these days.

Now I suppose supporters would say a man should not have to go to a food bank and lower himself to feed his kids and still justify the poaching,to me its still wrong and is taking away from the enjoyment of the sport by fellow hunters.

So where do we want to draw the line between a poacher and a hungry man feeding the family and us general run of the mill hunters?

gilroy, that topic is actually worth some serious discussion.
for the time being I was more thinking of very low hanging fruits:
all of those who think the regs are just perfect, may want to explain to me:
a) why it is so important to have for example the .30 caliber restriction in parts of Southern Ontario (you know its 2016 and it didn't even made much sense half a century ago) or
b) why we still have religious restrictions to hunt on Sundays?
The list goes on and on...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

yes, people are self centered and no CO nor pages and pages of regulations will change that.

everyone who mingles once in a while with "the locals", would have heard interesting stories...
the response I got most often for a careful attempt in pointing out that this is not exactly what the regs read, was how long they (and everyone they know) are doing that (i.e. never read or understood the regs). typically, there is mentioning that after all they never saw a CO out in the lake anyway.

what I'm trying to get at is that just writing something on paper does not change behaviour.
so there are two options:
a) brutal enforcement (which we cannot afford) or
b) getting people to voluntarily comply to common sense rules that are proportionate to the risk/impact on natural resources and public safety (along with reasonable enforcement)

changing people's behaviour is not as impossible as it sounds; it's however a very different approach, which requires (among other things) a different level of education on the topic

look at it this way, a person well educated on the topic at hand does not need a lot of regulations. the more you give them, the more time they will spend evaluating them to find a work around. such "misinterpretations" (if done often enough) would then lead to more complex rules. Kind of, if one bandaid didn't fix the bleeding put another one and another one on it again - and while you are at it, another couple of over here, just in case you cut yourself down the road).
conversely, those who don't have sufficient understanding of a certain topic will often get lost in (rather irrelevant / low impact) details and not be able to comply.
so, who wins from having complex regulations? certainly not our natural resources nor its users

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That only works in an utopian world.
Most recent example the Port Hope fall salmon show. It degenerated to the point of disgust enough to force a change. Knowing people respond only to the stick brutal enforcement was the solution. Seems to have worked. For me forget the biologist and other staff and hire full on CO to beat the rules into people. Brutal enforcement and punishment is the only way to change ones mind set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

gilroy, that topic is actually worth some serious discussion.
for the time being I was more thinking of very low hanging fruits:
all of those who think the regs are just perfect, may want to explain to me:
a) why it is so important to have for example the .30 caliber restriction in parts of Southern Ontario (you know its 2016 and it didn't even made much sense half a century ago) or
b) why we still have religious restrictions to hunt on Sundays?
The list goes on and on...

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The regulation are indeed very imperfect and you almost need to be a Bay Street lawyer to understand them.Up in my Township in Moose season you can have a loaded gun with you while on a road during that hunt,but on the same road in Deer or Elk season you cannot have the gun loaded.

The regulations need to be simplified and updated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Look as with all rules its because enough people took advantage and a law has been created. Its about preventing abuse where one guy will catch his limit of fish run in "gift" his fish and go out and catch more. Your allowed to keep 1 days limit of fish you can give it away but you can't retain more than 1 limit of fish.


http://www.outdoorcanada.ca/record-5...-investigation
If you can party fish this guy would be a Hero since you can't party fish this guy is a zero.
Must have been a reason he was watching you because really so would I.

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Yes there is a reason he is part ot a camp on the lake and him and his group dont want anyone on it...

He also tried to claim it was a no live bait lait yet it wasnt in the regs either...

Lets juts leave it at this his dirtrict manager boss aplogized for his harassment 😏

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monster29/66

Yes there is a reason he is part ot a camp on the lake and him and his group dont want anyone on it...

He also tried to claim it was a no live bait lait yet it wasnt in the regs either...

Lets juts leave it at this his dirtrict manager boss aplogized for his harassment 

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if at first you don't succeed try and try again. LOL

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

That only works in an utopian world.
....
Brutal enforcement and punishment is the only way to change ones mind set.

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Well, when I grew up there were guys who were severely beating up their dogs in an effort to knock sense into them. Needless to say, no matter how much beating went on, the dogs didn't learn to reason and didn't seem to understand what their master was yelling at them.
The grotesque part is that those guys never figured out that it wasn't a lack of compliance from their dogs, but lack of understanding. By the way, there were two types of dogs: The ones who just endured the beating and continued on thereafter doing the same thing (just made sure to stay as far away from their master as possible), and those softer ones that never wanted to go hunting again.

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Originally Posted by blasted_saber

If you cant differentiate between party hunting for moose and any sort of fishing then you should stop fishing and hunting altogether

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I'm just playing devils advocate. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't allow party hunting for large game. I'm saying if the MNR feels the rules are too complicated for the average angler/hunter they may just simplify them and in so doing exclude some users.

Totally agree with Johny. Plus I'm sure many people on this site missrepresent themselves by claiming Mother Teresa-ish adherance to the written rule - for the sake of appearing environmentally pure.
Now - back to the OP's point - totally agree that Ministry and Conversation officers are doing a fantastic job. In my experience they are dedicated to their responsibility and profession and deserve our utmost respect.