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It's shotgun week here, and all the 1 week a year hunters have filled the woods. Once again, opening day, 5 orange slob hunters in one of our clearly marked and fenced properties. Opened the gate and let themselves in.
Has anyone gone through the process of having someone charged? What's involved? I'm tired of this happening year in and year out. Especially when these slobs argue with you and refuse to leave.
It might be better to call them slob or bad hunters. I know many that only hunt deer and not small game. Your painting good hunters as bad.
Call the police and MNRF. Take down licence plate numbers and good descriptors of the trespassers. Tell the responding LEOs that you want charged laid, and you are prepared to attend court if necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
That's kinda what I was wondering. Does the land owner need to attend court?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
In most cases yes, unless you have been formally made an agent for that property. Of course the landowner or agent need not appear in court if they pay the fine !!Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
I'm painting blatant trespassers as what they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
It never ceases to amaze me how blatantly bold people are to trespass on someones land. And argue with you when you ask them to leave ?!
It's hard to have them charged,but,well worth it to "send the message" because they'll whine and cry and b**ch. The important thing is that they'll do all that to their friends who are likely the same sort,so,the word gets around pretty quick. Unfortunately,the ticket is only $200. If it was $1K for a first offense and $3K if caught again,these a**holes would think a lot harder before pulling their BS.
Good answer !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
In this case, it was arguing with my 70 year old mother who noticed the open gate. The usual, claiming someone gave them permission. "We're only hunting today"Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
"no one else hunts in here so why does it matter"
"what's the big deal, there's no livestock in here".
This is a section of bush we own that even I've never hunted. I try to keep it as a sanctuary and it tends to hold matriarchal does.
Oh, and they had a deer down that they claimed was shot on another property and died on ours.
If the police won't take action :Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
http://www.oiprd.on.ca/EN/Complaints...Complaint.aspx
LowbanksArcher OK now I'm confused.
At one point in this thread you ask "Does the land owner need to attend court?".
Then you state "This is a section of bush we own that even I've never hunted. I try to keep it as a sanctuary and it tends to hold matriarchal does."
Do you own this property?
If yes than you could press charges.
Are you concerned if you press charges if you will be required to attend court?
If you are the owner & they fight the charges yes you will have to attend court.
If your not the owner than to press charges you better have the legal right as a assigned legal representative of the owner to attempt to press charges.
Even then the legal owner may be required to attend if your authority to lay charges is challenged.
Straight up!!! Maybe it should have read "SOB trespassers".....perhaps that would be more, "politically correct" than "SLOB trespassers":silly:...either way, it works for me...then again, I'm not the overly sensitive type:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
Your best bet is to call the MNR and try to get the CO in your area involved.
Just to clarify, first trespass ticket is usually $75.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Which is even worse to try and deter people.
Yes,I'm well aware that hardly anybody gets whacked the full monty on a first timer which kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing,doesn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by puc911
Charged under the F&WCA its $100 as 2014. Still not enough but will usually deter most offenders from returning.
Yes, my name is on this property as one of the owners. Maybe I should have just stated "do I have to attend court". I'm just curious what's involvedQuote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
Wow. What a slap on the wrist. I was hoping to here $1000+. No wonder guys don't take it seriouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by puc911
Their is another charge I heard of it is called somthing like trespassing with the a gun or trespassing with the intent to hunt trespassing with a gun in your hand is totally different situation
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Call 911 and tell them there are 5 men with loaded weapons at your place. Tell the operator that they verbally threatened your 70 year old mother and you are all worried about your safety. Ask the hunters if they like apples as you hang a lock on your gate, locking them in until the 4 opp cruisers arrive
FWCA 10(1)(a) trespass to hunt $100 Whup-de-do!Quote:
Originally Posted by bugs_bunny
I had some kids from behind my house wandering through my yard after dark (in a subdivision). The LEO that attended claimed it's not just a trespass if it's at night. It's considered much more serious. Did they enter the area before dawn??
Haha. Unfortunately they're only livestock fences. Easy to climb over or under. In fact, 2 years ago my unfortunate mother again arrived just as 1 of 3 hunters were climbing over the gate. One of them proceeded to tell her that he's been hunting there since before we owned it (15+ yrs) and he will continue to and there's nothing she can do about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
If anyone questions why some of my posts on this forum sometimes seem very antagonist towards gun hunting and party hunting in general in southern Ontario, it's this type of behavior that has left a sour taste in my mouth. As a strict bowhunter who believes in low pressure hunting and leaving no footprint as a steward of the land, this type of behavior is a disgrace.
Next year, I'll be taking time off work during this week. Video camera in hand. Even if only for a $75 trespassing fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugs_bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
How quick we forget. Just ask Sparky494. Blood trail thread from last year. Kind of answers the question "ya I shot it on this side of the fence but died on your side of the fence. . As a side note he was Bow hunting so its just not gun hunters so its not the weapon of choice but the person who wheels it. Guess we need a new tee shirt. Guns don't trespass criminals do.
http://www.muskokatodaily.com/?p=23291
Total fine $1500 should discourage trespassing eh?
Call MNR enforcement. If no response, you call again to the District Office and talk/leave a message with the Enforcement Coordinator. Log it on Crimestoppers too. Who cares if the fine is only $100. The disruption and hassle that the CO gives them will allow you to sleep at night. Bare minimum, they will be field checked (including any deer they have), they WILL be forced to leave the property by the CO when he witnesses you, as the landowner, asking them to get off your property, as per the legal conditions of the Act. When you call the CO for the second time and they have to attend the scene again, there will be a negative reaction for these boys. You do all this after you've already involved the cops via 911, stressing that these guys are armed and you feel threatened.
Good advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Trespass by Night is a Criminal Code offence, so yes, it is much more serious. But it probably does not apply here. It only applies when someone is loitering or prowling near a residence without lawful excuse. I don't believe this happened near a residence (i.e., on the immediate grounds), and I am not certain that entering a property to hunt (however illegally) would qualify as loitering or prowling. The purpose of the Criminal Code section is to allow for charges against prowlers before they actually break and enter. What we have here is simple trespassing regardless of the time of day.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
I tend to agree, the $75 fine may seem like peanuts but the fine and associated hassles are a deterrent. However, calling 911 and trying to overblow the situation is not a good idea. Sure, nobody can prove you didn't feel threatened -- but the cops aren't stupid. They know when they're being jerked around. Saying that you feel threatened by a group of armed men is not the same thing as saying that you have a group of hunters trespassing and are concerned for your family's safety. The truth works here all by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Of course,the down side to this is when CO and Police find the "I feel threatened by armed intruders" is flat out BS,the next time you call,you'll go to the bottom of the list of calls in priority guaranteeing that any trespasser will be long gone by the time they "get around to" your call regarding your complaint as from the local crack pot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
In my opinion anyone on My Property with a gun warrants a 911 call. I would make sure it reaches the local newspaper so others in the community know that they should be looking out for people trespassing on private property. Especially if they have been so bold to come on my property in the first place or have been doing it for years ! Who knows what these people are capable of doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
That newspaper coverage will splash back on the hunting community as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
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I like to think it weeds out the bad hunters and make it clear in the newspaper article that this individual/individuals are not a representative of the majority of good responsible hunters. We all know the good hunters knock on doors and ask for permission. I have signed documentation by the owners of the land I am allowed to hunt on.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
The problem is, you don't have control of what the newspaper prints, or of what some other property owner they might track down and interview will say, or of what some local councillor will say, or of what the reader may conclude.
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All you can do is hope for the best and we all have the responsibility as hunters to promote good hunting ethics and advise our community how responsible we really are. No one said it would be easy. I hunt in Alvinston and i am one of three people who are allowed to hunt on a piece of property. I have come across trespassers before and i take their license plate down and called it in. I never seen them again after that. I just ask them for documentation ,a name and phone number of the owner of the property that allowed them to hunt on his property. i reach into my pocket showing the documentation i have giving me permission. They had a glazed look on their faces and walked away.
If you have the info and give it to the CO they will follow up after the fact. In my experience they visited the guys house and had a chat that resulted in him being charged and pleading guilty and paying the fine. No need to go to court.
Under the FWCA there are also provisions for seizure of property and suspension of hunting privileges.
CO's usually take trespassing to hunt calls pretty seriously. I would suggest getting in touch with the CO for your area and speaking to him personally about it. I'm sure he/she will be more than willing to help.
Some might want to be careful with the report of a "man with a gun on my property" to police. How that information gets passed to the police communicator and then the police officer could cause huge problems.
Most people charged with trespassing who know they were trespassing are usually not going to take it to court.
I have had that discussion with four family members who are police officers and all agree a trespasser with a gun on ones property warrants a 911 call or call to a CO. Remember the property owner has someone on their property with a gun or multiple hunters with guns. That is a very serious offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
I agree with Brent. Be very careful how you articulate information to dispatch or a 911 operator! Just reporting, " there's a guy on my property with a gun," will no doubt result in an emergency response.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
my advice is some sort of body cam or sun glasses camera
film all encounters with trespassers and then give evidence to police and c.o.
Yes,that's not smart and can have some horrendous repercussions far above and beyond any minor trespassing complaint. Remember the Jonathan Logan incident?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
If you haven't been raised outside of the city limits and as an adult purchase property and build your home on somewhat of a large acreage and a person/persons trespass onto your land with guns your automatic instinct is fear for your life . I have witnessed this before where I use to live in Eastern Ontario. I had some neighbors move from Ottawa and purchase some land beside my 10 acres of property. Both couples had made the 911 call because this type of trespassing behavior with guns was completely out of their norm. I am sure they reported it as intruders on their property with guns. I agree that someone who is familiar with this type of trespassing behavior when reporting should be very careful on how they convey the information to the 911 operator. BUT it is what it is and making it seem like an everyday occurrence and downplaying it will someday come back and bite you in the arse when someone is seriously hurt or shot. What message does it send to the people moving into the country that really feel threatened. In my opinion it makes it worse for the law abiding hunters who respsect the law.
Ah,yes,that great urban/rural divide. I used to go out of my way to educate new residences from the city,as you describe,that seeing hunters on the land is not an uncommon occurrence and to be wary,but, they don't need to panic. Just call the Police and let us look after it. Our dispatchers knew and in almost every case,we knew who the hunters were and could resolve most issues with a simple phone call or interview.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
It is what it is: people dressed in blaze orange, carrying guns during the deer hunting season. Report it as something other than what it is, and you can certainly find it coming back to bite you in the arse.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
And in my neighbors case it wasn't what you describe above. And it did bite them in the arse... the trespassers. Beautiful day going hunting this afternoon on the land i have permission to hunt.
Good! That's how it should be. Nice to hear things worked out.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
There's always the "stupid gits what stupid does" approach. If the pricks are ignorant enough to disregard your order to leave as the legal landowner of the property.
I'm pretty sure I'd get a sudden hankering To go do some work on my land. I'd pull my 28 ton horst wagon past their truck that was blocking my lane way
It's not my fault that the bunk edge rakes a gouge down the entire side of the truck, and the corner of my loader bucket tears their side mirror off. Maybe they'd get the hint when I start dropping trees with the chainsaw. Next comes my manure spreader.
You would still have to pay to repair the damage. So is it worth it to act like a spoiled child, with having to pay out for damages and face charges for damage to private property?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
On a side note had problems with a lady with no hunting signs posted on her place, which was across the road from some crown land. Well I was looking for squirrels she took it as a good idea to wipe grease on my truck windows( the nice thick EP stuff) and door handles. Short call to the MNRF and there was a CO standing there with into two hours. Lady was told if she so much as crossed the road to the crown land that the CO was going to lay charges. I have no idea what he would have charged her with, and he never said. She likes to walk her dog on the crownland so did not want hunters there.
A fewvmonths later I was walking in the trail to the crownland and guess who was coming out with her dog. When she saw me and remembered who I was her face turned white. She gets upset and asks me to please not call the MNR. I told her it did not matter to me if she walks her dog there or not, and we spent about the next hour or so talking. Before she left, she told me that she had never even talked to a hunter before because where she grewup no one hunted. She also did not know it was ILLEGAL to interfere or harass hunters, and she was amazed at the idea that there was a difference between "Hunter" and "poachers".
Thanks for the great story Snowalker. They should teach canadian heritage in school.
There was a vandalized vehicle complaint called in to the OPP many years ago when I was still in law enforcement. A colleague and I attended and found a new car with the roof,trunk and hood caved in parked in a private laneway blocking access to a several fields that local farmers were trying to get ready for fall planting. On interviewing the complainant and the landowner,it was found that they'd been told a couple of times that this was private property,they were trespassing,blocking the roadway and not to come back,but,they chose not to listen. There was a lot of tracks from large farm tractors in the dirt and along the top of the car back onto the dirt,but,the farmer disavowed any knowledge of how the car got damaged. There were no witnesses to the event and because there were so many different tractor tracks from all the work going on in surrounding fields,it was impossible to tell which track was which. The vehicle was towed from the scene,the trespassers were issued tickets,a report was taken and not another word was ever heard about it. A very powerful message was sent that day.
She was not an immigrant. She was born of white Catholic parents, raised and school in Regina SK. Worked in Toronto for a big company and married a guy from windsor. She retired but he still works so they bought a place near London so that they were half way between his work and his family.Quote:
Originally Posted by glen
P.S. It has been pointed out to me that I may have misunderstood. In fact No I knew what you were saying Glen. I was pointing out that she was born and raised in a typical Canadian Family, with typical Canadian Heritage and schooling. Through her life she had no contact with anyone that hunted or fished. She had camped in camp grounds with an RV and visited banff and stayed in Hotels on ski trips. Not the raised in woods eating what ever dad shot and mom grew to survive heritage.
Hope that clears it up.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Bazinga!
I recall one instance before most hoods had cable releases when someone parked blocking a lane way. We had to lift the hood and remove the tranny linkage so we could get it out of park and push it....think we might have lost a few pins and washers in the snow but we needed to get out and didn't know how long before they returned...
More to the point, the trespasser whose truck you went to town on knows exactly where to find you, if he has a hankering to watch things burn....Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
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Your not suggesting that a person that cares nothing about the law enough to tresspass would care even less about burning your barn or something down.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Yes, some rumination would definitely have to occur prior to enacting the "circumstantial punishment" approach. A short list of attributes/conditions, prior to dragging the prick's truck out to the road with an articulated 260 hp tractor:
1) several friends that are cops. You've already run the truck's plates and you know precisely who the person is, where they work, and where they live
2)you are genetically predisposed to using violence as a solution to deal with difficult people who are disrespectful and rude eg. 12 generations of Scotish ancestors who were persecuted and depraved. They resolved their issues by physically beating people to death with sod spades. Ancestry.ca reveals nothing but bastard kids, convicts, merchant marine pirates, whalers, and hired thugs.
3) you have 20 relatives and friends of the same lineage and unstable mentality that will gladly assist you in any needed retaliation. Half of them have serious rage issues, and probably should be medicated, or housed in a provincial facility.
4) You live within 10 minutes of Kinmount and Burnt River, where the Black Donellëy approach, and the proverbial "burn em'out with gas" mentality is alive and well.
5) You own a t-shirt that says ""If thy heathen brethren smites yee on one cheek........turn and smash him on the other"( More complications associated with the genetics deal).
I agree. You gotta think before you act!
Unless you see the hunters actually getting into or leaving the truck you don't have enough information - just giving the cops a license number won't cut it - then even if you see some hunters getting out of a truck how can you be positive that these are the hunters that came on your land - years ago I was small game hunting with a buddy - we were walking along the side of a hill above a road on which I had parked my car - while we were hunting we saw two guys walk through a posted field - the farmer came out on the porch and started hollering at the hunters - later when we went down to the road a car was parked behind my car - it was the farmer - he said that we were in big trouble - we explained what we had observed from the side of the hill - so you see just taking down a license number could end up trying to convict the wrong person
Another thing - some times you are dealing with individuals who will get back at you - a local farmer had two hunters charged with trespassing on his land - a year later someone shot two of his cows that were in a field - owning hunting land has its problems that's for sure but you do need to be careful how you handle trespassers - I think the best thing to do is go and tell the trespassers that you don't want anyone trespassing on your land and that you will press charges if they do it again - usually that is enough to keep them from coming back - lets face it - trespassing is like speeding - it will always happen
It still happens more than you think. Lots of barns and sheds spontaniously combust unexpectedly.especially,the ones that had a couple of wet bales placed where they shouldn't have been.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
This is why the cops interview people. It's often as simple as asking questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
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Deer hunters that think they own crown land and verbally abuse, insinuate that a dog may be shot or otherwise not compromise with bird hunters.....may also find their camp in a pile of ashes on return next season.
We all need to get along......unfortunately there are dicks of every stripe. I've just met a couple who bought 250 ac of good bush and lake front. So far they say that deer hunters have been the worst of the bunch. Verbally abusive and outright demanding they will continue to hunt the property. The new owner is from the country himself and would allow bow hunting if asked nicely...so he's not the issue.
I don't know how things are up there but down here you don't have to answer any questions - a lot of times people get into trouble by talking to the police - if they just inform the police that they are going to remain silent it is pretty tough for the police to figure out what happened - any good lawyer worth his salt will tell you - Don't talk to the police - even if you did nothing wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Same up here. Nevertheless, people do answer questions -- it's human nature. And cops are good at spotting liars.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Even if the cops can't prove anything, the interview itself functions as a warning.
This isn't as difficult as you pretend.
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Cops are good at spotting liars ??? That's questionable. lol :)Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
LOL do they even existQuote:
Originally Posted by brent
Yup. They do. I have been able to get one out to places in resonable time most of the times I have called. For example. Guys walking the dikes in Zone A at hullett trying to shoot ducks while there are guys at pins with decoys. Even shot over two guys at a pin. If the duck had dipped and not flared both guys at the pin could have seriously hurt or even killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by rem1100
A late post, I have not been on here since early November. Last spring during the turkey season I found 3 men hunting on my property. I called the OPP and a cop arrived about 15 mins later. All 3 were given trespassing tickets. 1 was arrested for several other offences, including not having a PAL or a turkey license.
If you're going to call the cops then you better not be making up fairytales. An A hole can be an A hole but if they haven't threatened you don't spew stupid BS because you feel it will add spice to your complaint. I say this as a guy who ran into an anti walking his dog on crown land. He made his opinion of hunting known quite irately. I unloaded my shotgun specifically while telling him I didn't want him to feel intimidated, I explained the laws, seasons and asked him if he would like to see my license. He just continued his tantrum, I told him if he wouldn't accept what I had to say then call the MNR and they will verify what I told him. Sooooo, I was greeted at the road by an OPP Officer at gunpoint demanding I "drop my weapon" you see the turd anti told the cops I threatened to kill him with my gun. It was a long, drawn out irritating experience. The MNR finally was called in, interviewed me and my companions who were spread out but trickled in as time wore on, CO told cops your complainant lied to you, these guys aren't the type to threaten and they are 100% legal and in the right. Best part was when officer pistol pointer told me I was lucky he wasn't going to charge me (with what?) and to never come back there again. My friends were spooked, I wanted a badge number for a complaint and everyone told me to shut up and not push it.
Yes, I have a problem with people who makeup lies. So no, if it's BS you're calling in its bad advice, if it's the solid truth, by all means tell it as it truly is
Not to mention it's a criminal offence ! I would have pushed the issue with that officer.... but then thats just me !!Quote:
Originally Posted by sickofitall
X2. He was right out to lunch holding an obvious hunter at gun point until he "dropped his weapon". Once he realized he'd been lied to,it was simple BS stupidity threatening charges for legal activity. That PC needed to be brought up short right then and there. The bogus complainant wouldn't have walked away without serious consequences,either. I'm not sure in what form,but,there certainly would have been something very unpleasant coming his way.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
My 2 cents worth....A few years ago we were hunting my Bro- in laws bush...signed with NO TRESPASSING...Did a push...got to top end and heard bang..bang at the back end....All our guys were out...so we drive around and there are 3 guys with deer down..just getting ready to field dress it...so after a heated exchange of words...OPP and MNFR are called...and low and behold they show up...A few more words exchanged...and Bro- inlaw wants them charged....And we want the deer...Guess what..neither happened....so much for the enforcement of the laws..And that was in 89B......Just my experience with trespassers...and the law
Well I can understand not getting the deer as its not yours. Unless your property is a high fence property game on it belongs to the crown contrary to the belief of some landowners. As for no charges being laid that's another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by baby123
To bad it wasn't at the Rogers Centre .......
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A complaint involving a alleged verbal threat is tricky to investigate but here is my advice to you and anyone else reading this.Quote:
Originally Posted by sickofitall
If your approached by a police officer you should comply with the verbal instructions especially when you have a potential weapon.
Once you do this you need to ask right away what the COMPLAINT is?
The next question I would ask the officer is DO YOU HAVE A WRITTEN AND SIGNED COMPLAINT in your memo book.
If the answer is YES request to see the complainants statement,every page should be initialed and signed at the end.
You then have the opportunity of giving your own statement in writing or you can ask the officer to read you your charter rights
and your right to remain silent.
Without the officer having requested the complainant provide a written statement he/she is pretty well FREE to change their tune so to speak.
I have found out that once you pull that memo book out and start writing thinks change pretty quick.
If you feel the complainant is a bull..... a verbal warning that a charge for Public Mischief will be laid if
your investigation uncovers lies goes a LONG..way to deter phoney complaints.
This police officer by passing the buck to the MNR for investigation reneged on his duty to perform a proper investigation of an alleged criminal matter.
You should have got a badge number and you should have pushed it because officers like this are left to stumble along without proper training and accountability they don,t get better.
wrong....if those deer were down and shot on private property, then the persons involved should have been charged with trespassing for one, possession of illegal deer because they were taken on private property without permission and thirdly if the landowner says no you cant retrieve the downed deer, the deer are now the landowners and up to the landowner to make every effort possible to retrieve and process so they do not spoil.......they become the landowners responsibility if the said landowner says No, onlyQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
There is no set fine for trespassing under the fish and wildlife act.....it could be anything they want to charge you with....Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Not really ......Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
10(1) (a)
Trespass for the purpose of hunting
Set Fine: $100.00
Total Payable: $125.00
[COLOR=#000000]A person shall not,
(a) enter premises in contravention of the Trespass to Property Act for the purpose of hunting or fishing;
However, the officer can still go by way of Part III, sending the subject to court. The JP will then assess the fine, depending on the circumstances....
You are so wrong. If anything the deer would be seized as evidence. No free lunch here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
I always love a story with details missing and the readers get to fill in the gaps.You said the property was signed 'No Trespassing' but you did not mention if the "back end" of the property was posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by baby123
This leads me to assume it was not and the trespassers were adjoining property owners who simply strayed over their property lines.
Therefore the MNR and OPP could not lay any charges.
You would have no claim to the deer in this event and also no claim to the deer even if they were trespassing.
Once the deer had been tagged as I have to assume it was it would belong to the group who shot it.
Now you don,t tell us if the deer was seized so again I assume it was not.
Kinda hard to figure out what your complaint is given the lack of details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
Any deer kept by a landowner found on his property after an illegal hunt OR if he/she refused retrieval of the animal where it was shot of property and ran into the owners property would have to be reported to the MNR. The landowner would then request a Permit to Possess the deer which might or might not be issued to the landowner.This is the correct way to do it.
The incorrect way to do it is to simply keep the animal the way you suggest, only to have the MNR CO,s turn up at your home with a search warrant looking for a deer YOU poached.They having received a "tip" from the hunters who you refused entry to retrieve the deer from your land or even the trespassers.
Now your in a pickle with a deer hanging in your garage and trying your best to explain you really didn't poach the deer. LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Yep!! What they said.. Take special note,Deerslayer99. Thinking the way you do,you're a prime candidate to inadvertently get your arse in a wringer and it happens all the time very easily. We just don't hear about it much,that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Wow! reading all these posts is an education!
IMO ... Wouldn't it be easier to just shoot the trespassers and bury them?
Just remember to remove the battery from their cell phone.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
You could put the phone in a leaky boat and send it out into the lake( Oceans work better, but if the lake is big enough).
LOL I laughed so loud I woke up Wifey... Good oneQuote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Cheers
Gilroy, you are right and I did want that badge number but my friends were so spooked and intimidated that they kept me back from doing it.
I also followed the officers instructions, (when you have a gun pointed at you best not to argue semantics) but I did calmly ask him what the problem was. I didn't get into it in my first post but that officer didn't have a clue about the laws around hunting. 2 of his gems at the time was that there was nowhere legal to hunt south of the French river?!?! and that you couldn't have a firearm uncased within 2 kilometres of any trail. I explained what wildlife management units were, open seasons, the more realistic distance from a road which I put at approximately 7m at the time. I had produced my pal (possibly the green FAC at that time) and outdoors card. He didn't want to hear any of what I was saying.
It was my opinion then and now that a little disciplinary action for his conduct and some additional training could have gone a long way.
That won't happen unless you talk to his supervisor. You're not doing the officer or anyone he contacts any good with regards to hunting in the future if you don't report it. It doesn't have to be a complaint-more like a heads up for his boss.
It is NOT hard to have them charged. Every time I have caught them I have forwarded their info to the MNR and they have charged them the next day. During shotgun they are busy, but they will come when they are not. And you can appear as agent for the owner. All they need to do is sign a form saying you have exclusive permission. And that is if they fight it. I also photograph their firearms, faces, licences and vehicles where appropriate. That way they can seize the property too.
Its left up to the discretion of the officer .....been there done that .....shot a deer and we tracked it to private land where it had dropped.....called MNR, they came and told us we had to obtain permission from the said landowner to get it...if the landowner says no then it now is up to the landowner to retrieve and not let it spoil since it is on there property and if they did not, the owner would be charged......most would say go get it cause they dont want the responsibility......this scenario happened as it was shot legally and not poached....if a crime is committed than yes the deer is seizedQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
explain why i would get my arse in a wringer for thinking the way i do.....u lost me on that oneQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Yeh thats how I understand its done,some on here want the owner dragged to court and want us to believe its hard to get charges laid sure hope Woodsman is reading this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyT
This has been discussed a few times and I believe even referenced to Ask A CO. From what I remember there is NO OBLIGATION on the owner of property to retrieve a deer on their land shot outside of it by another hunter.They would also not be charged for wasting the meat as they did not shot the animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
This answer kinda makes sense to me ie the landowner is a 80 year old grandmother and your forcing her to retrieve a deer from her back 40.
p.s. mark270wsm gave you this advice back in 2014 on the same topic
The landowner is not obligated to find and/or use the animal.
If the landowner does use the animal, they must report the acquisition
right from the mnr... you had a bad lawyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
Well you should not be lost on this one as its all been discussed in the past and you were given the answers in the past.You also appeared to have gotten your arse in a wringer in the past.
Mount Sweetness.....I don't think this is crap at all...stop reading it then but there is people who are misunderstood for things and think they know everything when it comes to hunting and fishing laws but actually know jack ......even I didn't think it was going to be this big of a deal over a simple trespassing charge but it was.....a lot of people think the same way as I did with this given issue.....didn't think we would get 3 charges out of this.....between the 3 of us it was $3200 in total fines and my case was dropped as I was not sworn in before the court so the total would have been $6000....ALL OVER A SIMPLE TRESPASSING ACT......
Post #103 15th Dec 2014 Permission to retrieve deer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
Because any Police Constable or CO,when confronted by someone that thinks they know the legalities,but,really don't and start running their mouth,will deliberately lay every charge they can think of if for no other reason than to prove a point. Sometimes it's better to just zip it.
Different situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
If a hunter shoots a deer that jumps a fence and expires on your property, you are not obliged to give him permission to get it. You can take possession of the deer.
However, if a hunter is trespassing on your property and shoots a deer, you have no legal grounds to prevent him removing that deer when he leaves. The deer is not your property. If the hunter already has possession of the deer, it's his. The CO can confiscate it, but you can't.
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This is true but who says the trespasser is leaving your property.You have the right to arrest him and deliver him into the hands of the police, problem solved.When the CO or Police arrive the trespasser gets charged and losses his poached deer, problem solved.
The claim was that the landowner gets to keep the deer. Doesn't happen in that scenario, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
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Never said it did.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
But the landowner can ask the CO for the deer and would be granted a permit to possess and could keep the deer.Short of that the deer goes off to the foodbank.
I didn't say you did say that. I wasn't responding to you, but to deerslayer, who has suggested that ownership of a deer passes to the landowner automatically, by dint of owning the property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Since we agree this is not the case, I'm unclear on why you're arguing the point.
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I cant read anywhere that deerslayer says the deer passes automatically to the landowner?Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
In fact it appears you take this position.
[COLOR=#333333]"Different situation.
[COLOR=#333333]If a hunter shoots a deer that jumps a fence and expires on your property, you are not obliged to give him permission to get it. You can take possession of the deer."
Post 74.
Grow up.
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If the deer was shot by a trespasser and the MNR gets involved, no one is going to get that deer, not the hunter and not the landowner because the deer was taken illegally and one cannot possess an illegally taken animal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
That makes perfect sense and I am glad you gave this sound advice,could the landowner deny permission to a CO who wanted to retrieve/size a deer on private land where it was shot by another hunter on adjoining land?
I don't know, but I doubt it. You can't obstruct an officer from carrying out his or her lawful duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
The Trespass to Property Act does not apply to law enforcement officers, land surveyors, etc. in the course of their duties, so you can't deny them access. Most of the CO's I know wouldn't retrieve your deer for you, though. Each officer will have their own approach to these situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I have access to a couple of properties with anti-hunting neighbours. On one, the neighbour has told me that if I respectfully ask before entering their property to retrieve a dead deer, permission will likely be granted. Another landowner is a strict no, so I stay away from the property line. I'd hate to shoot a deer and know it is going to rot in the swamp.
Yeh it look like section 94 of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act gives then authority.Be interesting to know if they always try to retrieve a downed deer or just leave it sit in the bush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cintax
Just for the sake of discussion I would say no the land owner can not deny permission to a CO. My reasoning is based on the ownership of the deer. Since an animal killed legally becomes the property of the hunter the landowner would have no claim on the animal even though it may be on his property. Although the land owner may deny access to the hunter to retrieve his property they can not deny the hunter his property ie said animal. Now if an LEO is called to retrieve your property I believe the landowner is obligated to grant access for the removal of property that is not theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Honestly I would not a hunt in any property where there is a possibility of my not retrieving a downed deer. In the big woods where you know your neighbors and get along pretty good generally its not a problem.When you are hunting the smaller parcels the risks go up accordingly,more neighbours,different attitudes, more fence lines,higher property values...Quote:
Originally Posted by benjhind
LOL here we go again, OK I agree with you that the landowner cannot dent entry to the CO as I have just posted the relevant section of the Act. I also agree they have no claim to the deer just because its on their land.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
However I disagree with you about the deer being the property of the hunter.IMHO it only becomes the property of the hunter after its legally tagged and no laws were broken to retrieve it.You cannot tag that animal until such times as your legally on the property.
Entry on private land
94. A conservation officer acting under this Act may enter private land and may authorize any other person acting under his or her direction to enter private land, with or without the officer, for the purpose of assisting the officer. 1997, c. 41, s. 94.
So I suppose reading this section a CO could authorize you to enter the private land and you and him retrieve the deer, but "benjhind" just posted most CO,s will not do this for you its entirely up to their discretion. I don,t know the policies of the District Offices but I tend to agree with benjhind they might not want to do much for you.
Perhaps one of our retired CO,s will give us some more advice.
I'm glad you have that ability. In my area, a typical 100 acre farm is 440 x 1100 yards, which means the farthest you can possibly be from a property line is 220 yards. I've seen deer run 400 yards on a clean double-lung broadside shot with a muzzleloader. Sometimes things don't go to plan and I've been lucky enough to retrieve deer a mile from where they were shot. It isn't always possible to guarantee that a deer will drop on land you have access to in my area. I give the "no-go" property a healthy 300 yard setback, which I feel is sufficient for due dilligence. Unless you have permission on every acre within a mile, I doubt many hunters in the southwest can guarantee the ability to retrieve a deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
So the question is who's property is the deer. As the hunter is mandated to put their tag on the deer they have shot legally I believe the deer is assumed to belong to the hunter. In any case there is a provision as you stated that provides a means of access and I would defer to that as opposed to "benjhind" that says they won't. It says they can if push comes to shove the CO would have to say why they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Guess it a comes down to preparation. If the possibility may arise that you might be in this position contacting your local CO discuss your situation and proceed accordingly. Hunting is all about preparation and this should be something thought of before it happens.
If I shot a deer and it runs onto private property that is posted - I'm going in for it - what are the chances that the owner is around to even see me - if by chance he sees me I'll tell him that I shot a deer and it ran onto his property - I don't want the deer to suffer or die and sink up the place - now he can be a dick and get all upset and may even call the cops - if he does that he's got one angry hunter who he will have to deal with in the future - if he tells me that he doesn't want anyone hunting on his property but will let me get the deer I would tell him that I appreciate it - may even offer him some meat - for someone to refuse a hunter to get a wounded deer on their property is a real - what is the harm anyway - why can't people be nice to each other rather than making things hard - when neighbors don't get along it is not a good situation because things can happen where they need help from each other - neighbors living next to each other and not getting along could be very stressful and unpleasant -
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Unfortunately it comes down to the fact that we live in a society and as such we do have a set of rules to abide by. In your scenario you know the land is posted. Did you discus with your neighbor the possibility and ask for permission just in case? If still denied did you seek legal recourse just in case? Guess you could be a dick and do what ever you want but the onus is on you to do the legal thing and in some cases it might not be the right way but the right way is only in your perspective.
I fully understand your position I have my food plot basically dead center in my 200 acre parcel, not by design by the way but by happen-chance. The longest I have seen a deer I shot was 100 yards but I,am using rifle and most all my targets are standing still.Quote:
Originally Posted by benjhind
I have never used a hunted with a muzzle loader but have used one and I am surprised at the distances your deer are running.
There are a few 100 acre blocks in my area split into 10 acres in the old days to make more money for the sellers.Guys do hunt them but definitely not for me as the frontage is only about 130 feet or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
What you are telling us is that you are fully prepared to break the law by sneaking into private property to retrieve a deer. The landowner would be a "dick" if he called police. But you have posted previously YOU have no problems calling the police when it suits you.A previous post has you suggesting if a hunter tried to keep you off Crown land you would ask for his hat so that you could c---
in it and you must stick up for your rights.Well what about the rights of the private property owner.Do you not see the hypocrisy?
I have posted your game laws down in your State in relation to this topic and they are pretty much the same as up here.
"Recovering Dead or Injured Wildlife: It is unlawful for a hunter to refuse or neglect to make a reasonable effort to retrieve any killed or injured game or wildlife. Hunters attempting to recover wildlife are not permitted to enter private property without permission. A hunting license does not give you the right to trespass on private property."
P.S. Joe you being a elder statesman for hunting would it not be better if you tried real hard to guide new hunters on here who are looking for mentors to give them better advice that what you are giving out.
X2 - was thinking the same thing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
3x - I was as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quack_Kills
That JoePa. Always has something dumb to say. At least he is being consistent.
400 yards is nowhere near typical, but it happens. In this instance, it was a high double-lung shot on a mature buck with a 240gr Hornady XTP. He was running on wheat ground (easy travelling), but you can imagine after 400 yards even a reasonably well-placed shot can result in a deer crossing multiple property lines. The mile example was a liver-shot deer. More typically, deer go down within 150 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I live in a 400 acre bush shared by 20 landowners. I own a small piece and get along well with my neighbours, so tracking isn't an issue. However, if an anti-hunter moves in next door, I guarantee that I will continue to hunt. I will be paying the mortgage for many many years, so I intend to hunt the land I have worked so hard for.
No I wouldn't ask the neighbor ahead of time - if I could go on his property to get a wounded or dead deer - because if he says no than I don't have any excuse if he should catch me - this way I can always said that I thought he wouldn't mind - sounds pretty smart to me - no so dumb after all
Remember they thought what's his name was dumb because he was saying that the earth was flat - then years later they found out that he was right -
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Yeh pretty dumb there is a principle in law called 'WILLFUL BLINDNESS' and this is what your exercising here.You don,t have an excuse if he catches you as your State law prohibits you from trespassing .
"remember they thought what's his name was dumb because he was saying that the earth was flat - then years later they found out that he was right -[/QUOTE]
Maybe the earth planet your living in is flat but I,am pretty sure the one I,am on is round.
JoePa, If you're referring to Cristoval Colon aka Christopher Columbus as the knowledgeable explorer who thought he had landed somewhere in Asia, it is well documented that people living on our earth knew it was round somewhere around the 2nd century BC. He just didn't think it was a big as it was.
The days are shorter and everyone is showing signs of cabin fever already. It's only November. lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
In response to the posting....did I not say that the property was posted........The guys in question were not people from next door the deer was not siezed...we like you city folk to come out and run all over without permisson....As they tried to tell us a name that was on the next road over that owned the property...It happens all the time...They have told us names of guys that have been dead for years..We usually know our neighbours ...we stick together
Here's some of the problem Joe. A lot of "slob" hunters don't get a rats petute about laws let alone trespass laws and a lot of landowners are getting tired of the lack of respect shown for their property rights. Unfortunately some of them end up painting all hunters with the same brush. Most would like the courtesy of someone asking permission to go on their land. Some want nothing to do with hunters on their land. For someone to blatantly trespass, knowing they are on private land and not wanted there, is out and out illegal and poaching in my opinion. If me as a landowner, telling a hunter to get off and stay off and not get the deer he shot pees him of and now he's a mad hunter to deal with, then all the more reason for the hunter to stay away from me. He now has one peed off landowner to deal with which will involve the LEO's in the future.Quote:
now he can be a dick and get all upset and may even call the cops - if he does that he's got one angry hunter who he will have to deal with in the future - if he tells me that he doesn't want anyone hunting on his property but will let me get the deer I would tell him that I appreciate it - may even offer him some meat - for someone to refuse a hunter to get a wounded deer on their property is a real - what is the harm anyway - why can't people be nice to each other rather than making things hard - when neighbors don't get along it is not a good situation because things can happen where they need help from each other - neighbors living next to each other and not getting along could be very stressful and unpleasant -
My position is that all hunters should have written permission to hunt on private property similar to that required on Manitoulin Island. Would make the issue cut and dry from a trespass perspective.
There's something to be said for that, but I think in many areas, it would simply make it harder to get permission.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
The astute landowner realizes that permission given in writing can only be revoked in writing ... putting it in writing can buy a whole new level of hassles for the landowner.
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On the Island its normal for landowners to give the permission slips for one year only so its not that unreasonable to bring the system in. All the landowner has to do is refuse to sign the following season.
But he can't easily revoke your permission this season when he finds out he doesn't like you....
The closer you are to big population centers, the more reluctant people will be to give written permissions ... and the greater your trespassing problems, too.
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First off, a hunting license does not trump property rights. A CO may investigate to see if the land owner tagged the deer. That is illegal,but a phone call to MNR and the land owner will receive a tag in the mail and will get a reference number for a CO. Lost and found a deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
True but property rights don't trump possession rights. I think of it this way. If my kid kicks his ball over the neighbours fence. He can't climb over the fence to retrieve his ball unless the neighbour says its okay to enter the property. However if the neighbour refuses access they can't keep the ball right. Either they turn it over to the proper authorities or if the LEO shows up they have to turn over said property. Its not a lost deer unless there is no claim made. However if a hunter lays claim the landowner cannot keep the deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhorn
I own hunting property and I have it posted - I live permanently on one end of the land - my land is part woods and part field where my house is - I would not like it if some hunter parted his butt on my land and hunted - if I saw such a guy I would tell him that the land is private and he is not allowed to hunt there - mainly because I and my kids hunt there - if some hunter shot a deer in an adjacent property and it ran onto my land I would have no problems with him coming on my land to retrieve it - permission or not - it is just common curiosity -
To all of you so-called non- law breakers - everyone on this forum has broken laws at one time or another - some almost every day when they drive over the posted speed limit - others when they throw a gum wrapper out of their car window - keep a fish out of the slot size - smoke a joint - etc. - so please give me a break and don't preach to me about going on someone's land to get a wounded or dead deer -
If you find a deer you don't have to call MNR anymore, you just fill in a form on the internet:Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhorn
https://www.ontario.ca/page/keep-dead-wild-animal
A ball is property of an individual. A deer is property of the Crown until it is lawfully possessed by an individual. You can lawfully possess a deer by tagging it. If you can't get on the property, you can't tag it. You can also lawfully possess a deer by clicking on the link above and filling out a form.
Oh now you have answered my question "the back of the property was also posted" OK thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by baby123
So why was the deer not seized?
Your comments about the city folk running all over you is like my experience up north but the locals are doing all the running over.Yup also using names of long dead ancestors who used to own the property decades before or the usual "we always hunted this place"
forgetting all the time they SOLD IT to the city folks.Works both ways seen it time and again over the years.Get used to it as the City folk are buying up land all the time put up for sale by your neighbors.The game then changes.
red foxx
"My position is that all hunters should have written permission to hunt on private property similar to that required on Manitoulin Island. Would make the issue cut and dry from a trespass perspective."
I agree would help the LEO,S and it would be mandatory to have on you, a direct contact number to the owner would be needed to verify who you are and so forth.
Now I know its a slippery slope to landowners maybe asking for payment for access but we are capitalist.
What you might wish to do on your land is your business and the police will not get involved because there is no complaint.But the law makers via THE PEOPLE decided at some time that a law must be on the books to stop hunters from going onto private property without permission.As for your comments about all of us being law breakers another old one you know comes to mind "two wrongs don,t make a right". Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
'Quote:
Originally Posted by benjhind
There are legal recourses to access a property as already stated. Even though a land owner may refuse access to you an intervening LEO can aid in the recovery either present or not. Its not a race to tag a deer. If you need to claim someone else's deer you got more issues however I believe ownership lies with the person who initially killed the animal and is in the process of completing his mandated responsibility to tag their animal immediately at the place of recovery.
The key to me in all these threads is summed up in one one PREVENTION. I cant imagine anything worse than sitting in a tree stand freezing my ar.. off for two weeks and wondering all the time WHAT IF the deer I hit takes off onto this or that property, where I have not obtained some prior consent to go get it.
If the parcel you have owned/permission to hunt is so small or if you have bad relations with the guy next door maybe time for a rethink.
Think the word your looking for is PREPARATION. Since the only way to prevent adverse situations is to stay at home. Your right prepare for the worse case scenario. If it means having a co's number on speed dial so be it. In life stuff happens and it is our responsibility to proceed in the most informed and legal recourse available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I will stick with PREVENTION since one of the ways to prevent adverse situations from happening is to not set yourself up for them to happen in the first place. You can prepare all you want but if your hunting to small a parcel or neighbour does not like you can PREVENT any conflict taking place.Oh and then you can prepare to take off some where else.LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Wow!!! No you can't. See the section below of the FWCA that makes it an offence.Quote:
You can lawfully possess a deer by tagging it.
If you have killed a deer while trespassing without permission or shot one at night or shot one during the closed season.....you cannot legally possess it by putting a tag on it. You can try but if it was taken illegally and you possess it....it is an offence because it was illegally taken in the first place.Quote:
Illegally killed wildlife, possession
12. A person shall not possess wildlife that has been killed, injured or captured contrary to this Act or the regulations. 1997, c. 41, s. 12.
Wow. You really missed the point there. If I said "I can drive a car", I suppose you'd say "No!!! You can't drive over people because murder is illegal!!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Didn't miss the point. Quite the contrary....as we've seen in this post and others, readers do take what they read quite literally. I don't want someone reading what was posted and deciding by simply putting a tag on an animal makes everything OK.Quote:
Wow. You really missed the point there. If I said "I can drive a car", I suppose you'd say "No!!! You can't drive over people because murder is illegal!!!"
A little off. It was a windy night, and I shot a goose that went onto the neighbours property . Contacted them and asked to look for it with a dog. Said "no" . Called MNR, they told me to change where I hunted, so the game died on my property. Shooting a deer gives no rights once it crossed to another property with no permission to retrieve. Try to get permission in advance or hunt as far away as possible from property that not legal to enter.
Nice neighbours !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhorn
You do not need to tag a deer to "possess" it. Possession is not ownership, but control. I can possess stolen property, for example. The quoted section makes it an offence to possess (i.e., have in your control with intent) any wildlife taken illegally. It applies equally to the landowner; to lawfully take possession, he needs approval.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Ownership is another question. You take ownership, not just possession, by tagging the deer. The deer becomes property.
\Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
In no way did I state or imply that tagging a deer excuses it from poaching it.
A person who read my post and "took it literally" would have learned how ownership of a ball that crosses a fence is different from ownership of a deer.
If a deer has been poached and a person tags it, that doesn't make it legally possessed as possessing it, if it was taken illegally, is an offence.Quote:
You can lawfully possess a deer by tagging itQuote:
In no way did I state or imply that tagging a deer excuses it from poaching it.
I agree with Welsh as well. You don't need a tag to legally possess a deer. It needs to be reported though if it was obtained by other than legal hunting.
My wife and i were on private property not marked....Honest mistake....Every time we went hiking we would clean some slobs mess....We even cleaned up old sleeping bags. dozens of beer bottles. and food rappers.....The bone heads cut trees for fire wood and only took a fraction of the wood so i decided to take my chainsaw in the bush and swing it for a while and tidy up there mess.....Land owner "caught" us and we explained his land (in Newfoundland) was unmarked and it was on a very well worn trail threw his property that started on public land....He stopped me and asked "Was it you guys in here cleaning up peoples mess?" Yup i said back....What you doing with this wood your cutting....Just cleaning it up....He asked do you burn wood? Yup i said....He said any time you want come on my land and cut as much wood as you need! It was the start of a real good friendship....
You and your wife are clearly good people. Nice to hear about good deeds done.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshot
BS on the landowner having to retrieve the deer or be charged. Refusing entry onto private property does not put the onus onto the landowner to retrieve it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
If the CO is not conducting an actual investigation and there was nothing illegal about the way the deer was taken, then how is the CO acting under the act????Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Acting under the act implies an active investigation.
Tell that to the CO who told us that....his words were that if he does not let you retrieve your deer, he is now responsible to make every effort possible to retrieve it and process it as to not waste.....or the owner can be charged.....most times when they hear that they allow you to get it.....all im saying is what the CO told us....Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
Unfortunately the CO is incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
I believe he is. Seen that question posed to a CO many times. If a land owner refuse you to access the dead deer because it ran say 100 yards onto said property. Than that owner is now taking responsibility for the deer. He must handle it properly. I don't know maybe you should be the CO. As every time I have seen this question asked the answer is always the same. Is every CO out there lying??
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
I also had the same response from muliple CO's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
They are likely saying that if a landowner refused the retrieval of game, he is excercising control over it, which equates to possession.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
It is an offence for someone in possession of game to allow it to spoil...
Well here is the actual regulation.
But before that, how does one know the deer is even dead on the property?? How can the hunter prove the deer is dead on the neighbouring property and didn't in fact cross into another property? How does the landowner know the deer is actually on his property? (unless you are talking about the deer being dead in plain sight)
Abandoned and spoiled meat, pelts, etc.
Abandonment of meat
36. (1) A hunter or trapper who kills game wildlife other than a furbearing mammal shall not abandon it if its flesh may become unsuitable for human consumption. 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (18).
Spoiled flesh
A person who possesses game wildlife that is not a furbearing mammal and that was hunted or trapped shall not permit its flesh to become unsuitable for human consumption. 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (18).
Abandonment or spoilage of pelts
A hunter or trapper who kills a furbearing mammal shall not abandon the pelt or permit the pelt to be spoiled or destroyed. 1997, c. 41, s. 36 (3).
Rick, it's not often I disagree with your posts, and I do agree with your second sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
However, I disagree that exercising control over one's land equates to being in possession of something that may or may not be there.
With the exception possibly of the deer being in plain sight of everyone involved.
What if the landowner refusing permission is incapable of handling a dead deer? And there are many reasons a person may be incapable.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
As well, I can see the OIPRD complaint now....."the CO threatened to charge me if I didn't let somebody enter my private property".
Possession requires control, knowledge, and consent, right?
The landowner who refuses the hunter access arguably has control of the deer, knows he has control of the deer, but how does he consent to its possession? I don't think refusing access establishes that. You can't force a person to be responsible for a thing by dumping it on him.
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I can not ever remember being refused entry to private property after being requested to attend by a hunter who had been refused permission to enter private property to retrieve a downed animal and it used to happen a lot during hunting season. Once the cruiser drove in the driveway,the occupier was asked politely for permission for the hunter and they almost always said "OK." It used to piss me off because we had to make a special trip usually when we were in the middle of something else. I could never understand why a landowner/occupier just couldn't be reasonable in the first place. Some people just live to be a**holes.
Exactly....knowledge, consent, control. Textbook OPC...lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
There are many people that set up on property lines knowing full well the deer is likely going to cross into the property they don't have permission on. The time to get permission to enter private property to retrieve game is before the hunt even starts. If permission is not obtained, maybe you should rethink your plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
A case could even be made that a hunter shooting a deer that he knows he may not be able to legally retrieve should in fact be charged himself.
I have seen Deer travel more than 200 yards with a good shot. How far should you be away 1000 yards?
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
I thought that many times,but,trying to prove "intent" would be like pushing a chain. I doubt any Crown Attorney would buy in to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
Is this thread still going ? lol
The scenario we were dealing with was a hunter shooting and wounding a deer which runs onto another persons property where he/she does not have permission by the landowner to retrieve it.If the hunter calls the MNR to help retrieve the deer I believe the CO is conducting an actual investigation. We are all assuming there was nothing illegal done up to that point,but now that the CO has got a complaint from the hunter about being unable to get to the deer it would be an active investigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
It would also be an active investigation if the landowner calls and complained about the hunter entering the land for the deer.In both cases the CO would be able to enter that private land.
What offence is the CO investigating, if a landowner refuses him entry? What is the complaint?
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Doesn't need an offence would believe the report of a wounded, or unrecovered animal is enough for them to investigate if there is or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Au contraire. There is no investigation without some reasonable grounds to think an offence has been committed.
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Tough to do for bow hunting. For rifle/shotgun use a breakdown shot (shoulder or cns).Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Brent - you are correct on this. I am surprised to see the number of dissenting replies. Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
As to the "the CO said" replies, looks like there are a lot of CO's who don't know the laws related to this or how Ontario/Canada's legal system works. Double wow.
Well, if you read my post again, I said basically that the CO's were likely relying on the control, possession aspect. I didn't say I agreed with their interpretation. Being charged is a long way from being convicted !!Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
I don't think CO's are subject to OIPRD.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
Yes, that i'm not sure of. They are attending OPC now for BCT.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Agreed, a CO might charge but I would bet anything there would never be a conviction.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I agree. They might have a good chance if the dead deer was laying in the landowners front lawn !!Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
Yea, we had a class of "game wardens" back in 1975 when I was in recruit. But then, the Director at the time came from the MNR, or Dept of Lands and Forests back then. Mennill Hall is named after him!!Quote:
Originally Posted by brent