Anyone a member of this?
http://www.qdma.ca/en/
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Anyone a member of this?
http://www.qdma.ca/en/
Been a member since 1999. Good organization, excellent knowledge base,they had a great community forum until they shut it down last July.
OK I will ask the obvious question, why did they shut down such a great community forum?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
There doesn't seem to be any local Steward stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
Going to Quebec is such a long way.
I think they're a glorified food plot seed sales platform which is more concerned with profits and trophy bucks then they are with deer management for the health of the herd. They're more concerned with those two things then they are with "meat hunting", which is something I fundamentally disagree with.
I agree 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Quality deer meat association. Shooting future trophy bucks today.. lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
QDMA started out in the northern US about 20 years ago,espousing the philosophy of quality Deer herd management through construction and cultivation of food plots. On the surface,it looked well presented and was quite convincing as an altruistic organization interested only in improvement to the overall Deer herds. Soon after,though,it was found that all this was AFTER they obtained patents and sole manufacture and distribution of genetically modified (GM) commercial Deer feed seed. All of a sudden,it didn't "shine" quite like it used to at the outset. They devised and adopted Association "rules and by-laws" which dictated the size of which antlered Deer could be harvested,citing that only large racks which met their criteria could be harvested,then,started to lobby politicians to amend state hunting regulations to that end. Many hunters and their local associations weren't impressed. They saw it as an attempt to further restrict already heavily regulated Deer harvest laws,the general concensus being strictly for their own commercial purposes. To them,the whole thing didn't pass the smell test. Whether true or not,the resulting uproar and adverse publicity didn't do QDMA any favors and the organization has greatly withered away. Much like the National Wild Turkey Federation,they tried to get chapters going here in Canada,but,adverse publicity seemed to follow. Not many hunters are members nor do they agree with QDMA philosophy as accurately stated by blasted_saber and terrym with whom I whole-heartedly agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I just noticed that Staubin72 has posted an invite to Ottawa area hunters to attend a QDMA meet and greet. You may want to attend to see for yourself,first hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
I'm a member and involved with my local chapter.
It is primarily an education organization and the magazine is a great resource for articles based on peer-reviewed research.
There is a good deal of misinformation out there about QDMA. I usually describe the organization as helping hunters and land managers accomplish herd management goals. If your goal is to shoot a deer every year to fill the freezer, and the property you hunt provides that without a problem, you likely don't need much information to help with that. My goals are to see more deer on my property, and see mature bucks. To do that I do habitat work that helps improve forage and fawning habitat, and shoot fewer small bucks on my property. I'm not into food plots and prefer native vegetation management.
My local chapter does educational events and fundraises to support outdoor youth education and events. We give most of the money to Camp Trilium (a camp that kids with cancer can attend for free, which also has an archery program), and I think we've given them over $15000 to date but I'd have to check the numbers. We have also helped at many youth events including the Delta Waterfowl youth courses and holding many of our own educational events with guest speakers from MNR and other organizations. I see a few people like to paint the organization with a bad brush, but I think we are doing a fair bit of good in the community.
I was lucky enough to attend the first Deer Steward course held in Canada, which as Nosey indicated was in Quebec. The organization is relatively new in Canada, but hopefully more courses in more locations will be offered in the future.
If you are interested, membership is cheap. The magazine is fantastic and well worth the price. Like I said, there is lots of information on primary research about response to hunting pressure, effects of scents, predator managment, etc. etc. etc. and is a refreshing break from many other magazines that have "I shot this buck" articles.
Just my two cents!
QDM has goals like a more balanced male:female population.
With less females per male-- the more a buck must roam to breed--so hunters see more.
Sounds good, maybe.
QDM's main goal of seeing more bucks is to see bigger bucks and restrict themselves to shooting only big old bucks.
Same as the Boone and Crockett mentality.
To do it you need to shoot a lot of does especially in the first few years of a large management area. Eventually male:female ratio comes closer to 1:1 and for sure breeding behaviour will change and hunters might see more big bucks.
Sounds good, sort of, except--who shoots the does?
Well every QDMA article tries to put a positive spin on it.
But I always feel personally offended or offended on behalf of another hunter.
"Good for a kids first deer"
"Builds confidence to shoot a doe"
"Good for the wife to shoot" "Good for your daughter"
"Good if you just want to get some meat"
"Help the management plan so give the meat to charity"
It all adds up to---someone has to shoot the does----but it is less worthy----less of a hunt, than shooting Mr. Basket Head with his Boone eligible antlers.
No thanks.
I am happy to bring home any deer for eating in winter.
Big antlers do not make a hunt more worthy than a spiker or a doe.
Amazing the misinformation provided in this thread by some. For those that haven't already visited their site please do so before making any judgement on their "goals". If you want to shoot a spike buck instead of a doe in an area where the population is robust and the doe / buck ratio is 4:1 go ahead. However don't put down those people and organizations that are concerned about herd health, balanced sustainable populations & quality hunting opportunities. QDMA has been a great resource for me personally. It's provided lots of info not only on food plots, but on habitat improvement, doing a camera census, balancing herd age & sex ratios thru selective hunting and much more.
Good to hear from someone who is a member.Quote:
Originally Posted by benjhind
Thanks.
If you want to practice herd management get yourself some sheep.
You have to keep in mind that the QDMA program originated down south, in fenced 'farms' with captive deer that where groomed nutritionally to produce huge trophy racks. The problem is, with the QDMA program catching on here, they are trying to manipulate 'wild' animals that are free to room by using 'living' bait programs and dictating how you should hunt to achieve 'their' goals of herd management.
Nature has a funny way of balancing herd ratio's with the randomness of birth....Doe/Buck is 50/50 at birth. There is no reason, in nature, for that number to get out of whack unless man gets involved.
The MNR has the mandate to control herd sizes and they use hunters (Antlerless tag program) to manipulate the ratios when they feel that the population is growing beyond sustainability.
If your property doesn't naturally support a healthy population of deer, there is a reason and trying to 'bait' them to live there is self serving and not in the best interest of the herd.
I have a neighbour that practices a Q'T'MA program. He has a property that natural supports Wild Turkey and thru a program of winter feeding in his back yard he has developed a sizeable flock with some the biggest Strutting Tom's in the whole county. Truly magnificent Trophy Fans worthy of mounting.
He has offered me the opportunity to take home one of the priced Tom's in the spring. He says I should show up at around 7:00 am, get take a seat on his porch so when he does the early feeding, they will be in the yard by 7:15. He says the Tom named 'Virgil' is the oldest and has the biggest Fan.
A great Flock management program...LOL...
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psi94gmcpv.jpg
Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
So, he puts feed out and these wild turkeys come strutting over?
Those are some beautiful birds.
I do have some deer here. 3 does that are always together and then another pair of does as well. I did some reading on here about how baiting can make deer sick if you use the wrong stuff. Then some guys talked about food plots. I found the QDMA website and that opened up more possibities. I thought it would be nice to have a food plot for the deer as a way of sort of giving back. There's just so much information and it is difficult to figure out what practice is not totally self serving. Maybe you are correct and I should just let nature take its course. I would feel really bad if I did something that messed up the deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Wow Mike. This is incredibly misinformed. The QDMA has fought long and hard against the captive cervid industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
http://www.realtree.com/brow-tines-a...-deer-breeding
Deer don't care about property lines. They care about quality habitat that provides them food and cover from the elements and to hide from predators. Please explain how providing quality habitat is not in the best interest of the herd.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I would encourage anyone interested in the organization to do some reading and inform themselves.
https://www.qdma.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Im pretty sure it's illegal to bait turkeys. Best pass on his invitation.
The oft perpetuated myth that deer herds have a whacked out 2:1, 3:1, or 4:1 ratio of does to bucks is one BIG reason I don't buy into anything qdma spouts.
No natural herd of any animal survives gender ratios like rhat. Throughout ON the whitetail ratio is almost always 1:1.
Even if the ratios are heavy to does, bucks will breed multiple does during the rut periods. What they really want is bigger racks which I don't agree with. I and would guess most deer hunters would rather take a deer every year regardless of rack size then a couple monsters in a lifetime. A trophy is a bonus, not the reason to kill a deer.
Absolutely incorrect. 15 minutes of research or a day in the deer woods will prove that wrong. As for other species, I know that you can remove 30% of the males each spring and still have a healthy population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
Nope. Definitely didn't start on high fenced areas with captive deer. They only suggest protection of yearling and 1.5 yr old bucks, harvesting the APPROPRIATE number of does WHEN NECESSARY to maintain a healthy balance. Foodplots are to provide nutrition. Planting clover and chicory, something QDMA are big on, helps lactating does but is useless during hunting season.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
You are correct about randomness at birth. Then the MNR, with no money and no boots on the ground, make "educated guesses" about how many deer are around and what "their" objective is. Maybe the local citizens are complaining about deer / vehicle collisions or farmers are squawking about crop damage. Do you really think that doesn't also factor in to their herd management plan?
If your property doesn't support deer QDMA encourage habitat improvement (harvesting mature timber, creating sanctuaries, improving native browse and plants)) and the planting of food plots if necessary. Dumping bait for deer isn't one of their recommended activities.
I have no problem with hunters that don't care to be selective with their harvest or lack the time, interest or money to improve their habitat, but don't deliberately disparage those that do. My two cents...
The Deer Steward Course.
Is this course conducted with fenced in deer?
As in a controlled, completely managed herd so that we learn from those deer?
Lots of learning enviros are controlled, not knocking it.
I guess I'm asking, do we a controlled course and then apply it at home or do we study unmanaged, unfenced deer and apply at home?
I guess I should have clarified...the cull practices and feeding programs used to develop trophy racks were developed at game farms in the US....a lot of the same principles have been adopted by the QDMA or similar programs.Quote:
Originally Posted by benjhind
NO...you just have be 400 metres from the bird feeder and/or stop feeding them 5 days prior to the hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I sure hope you all realized I was being extremely factious with that post; I would never even contemplate hunting a Turkey that way. He's had those Tom's over there for years and I have never entertained it as a way to fill my tag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
Looks like you buy into the myth completely.
Please explain how a population with a 50/50 split of the gender at birth ends up losing 75% of its males in your estimation... the strongest, fastest and most cautious of the whitetails?
Answer, it doesn't.
Looks like some folks here probably believe in a whole bunch of myths.
http://www.realtree.com/brow-tines-a...unters-believe
Let's not split hairs here....attracting deer to your property with food is 'baiting'...regardless of it's in the form of a bag corn from the feed store or a planted 'living' food plot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
Hunters have long figured out that hunting over a farmers cash crop yielded better success, modifying the concept with specialized seed mixes to grow feed in the corner of your property with the intent to develop deer with better health..ie bigger racks is still 'unnatural'.
If you were doing it so you could watch deer out your window grazing in you back 40 it would be one thing, but when the goal it to develop wall trophies it's another.
I watch North Woods Law. It's interesting that baiting of all big game species in all forms is illegal in The State of Maine. Also,all harvested big game must be reported and recorded at registration stations all over the State. I wonder how QDMA philosophy would fit into that form.
The DS1 course teaches principles and practices of property-level deer management. Things like population censuses, setting harvest goals, habitat management, predator management, etc. It is primarily in-class. When I took it we took a couple of field trips to discuss habitat management, native forage assessment, food plot establishment, etc. There were no fenced deer involved or needed for the course, but you do learn a lot about research conducted using both fenced and wild deer (telemetry surveys).Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
QDMA is a great resource for the science geek who wants to be involved in deer hunting year-round. For me, I like my property to be appealing for deer. I only have a few acres so I want to make them count. I also want there to be some big bucks around, so I don't shoot the little guys. Joe Hamilton once told me "If you let him walk, you might get to see what he looks like next year. If you shoot him, you know what he'll look like next year - freezer burnt!"
Anyways, I hunt the way I enjoy hunting. To the critics: you should hunt the way you enjoy hunting as long as it is safe and legal.
Thanks again Benjihind.Quote:
Originally Posted by benjhind
I am going to explore this further and make up my own mind.
I can't see any harm in providing the right food for deer.
However I choose to do it.
Seriously? How does it change? Because the vast majority of yearling and 1.5 yr old bucks are killed by guys that either don't care or somehow think it better to shoot a spike buck than a mature doe. Did you even read the link you used? It states that 1:5 ratios exist and 3:1 is more realistic. Seems like some folks here probably don't read what they link to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
It says 1:5 is virtually an impossibility to reach or exceed. That 1:3 is only likely in the worst of situations. And keep in mind this is based on data from the states where hunting pressure is FAR heavier than our herds experience in Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
When accusing someone of not reading something, please be sure your own comprehension is above par.
Sorry, when the hunter success rate is somewhere between 20-35% each year... no... we're NOT killing the majority of bucks. This is going by the MNR estimated average for the past 15 years.
Do the math...... 3:1 means that 50% of the bucks have been shot if they start out 50/50. 5:1 means 2/3 have been shot. Actually it could be even higher as that doesn't factor in the number of does shot. How exactly does success rate equate to the majority of bucks being shot?
Speaking of believing myths,we really need to take the referenced websites with a huge grain of salt.Most of them are very self-serving and selective when it comes to citing "facts" and "stats".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I plant NOT to attract deer, but to help the current population. You dump bait to kill deer. I plant clover / soybeans / brassicas to supply year round nutrition. There are big differences. Your bait doesn't help the deer, rabbit, grouse, etc. populations at all in any meaningful way.
What a bunch of hooey...I think your in denial of your real motives, 99% of guys who buy into the QDMA mantra are planting food plots to feed/attract deer to their hunting areas. Then restricting the taking young Bucks for only ONE reason...to have a better opportunity to harvest a Mature Buck. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
All that talk of the nutritional benefit for the whole herd is nonsense. Deer in the wild don't need 'your' help to be nutritionally healthy, they just move to areas where they can find the food they need. If where you hunt isn't one of them, then you attempt to keep them there with food plots. It's self servings, not in the best interest of the herd.
If you put in a food plot I think you attract deer AND help the current population, there is no guarantee what shows up at your plot is something you want to harvest or legally can harvest.But the plot gives high nutrition food,minimizes their movements to get to it and so forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
I also don,t see any problems with bait be it corn or apples,your still providing an added food source and might not harvest a deer.
The whole concept of growing Trophy Bucks is wrong and goes against nature.A trophy buck from what I have READ is actually handicapped in dense bush by the big rack itself.The bigger bucks if they do engage in combat are likely to lock horns and die.
All the reading I have done indicated Trophy Bucks are actually rare in nature and abnormal.To create Trophy Bucks these conditions
must exist;
They must have access to great nutrition.
They must live a stress free life,not harassed by anything.
They must not engage in combat, so give the rut a pass.
If you think these conditions are outlandish research where most trophy bucks are taken.They are not taken in places generally where those conditions are absent.Your average big woods bucks I would say tend to be smaller 8 pointer. They simply cannot spare the nutrients to grow big racks.
Also there is no evidence to support the idea that the genes of a Trophy animal can be passed along to any off spring where it will have massive antlers.
Gilroy,
I agree for the most part with what you say. The main point of difference I have would be with what is critical to grow a big buck ...... it's time. If you shoot a spike or a 1.5 yr old he'll NEVER get to be a big "trophy" deer no matter what genetics, nutrition or whatever.
Mike,
If you want to put nothing back in and only take from the resource that's your prerogative. Don't make up things to feel better about it just because others want something different. The one "trophy" deer that was shot on my property was taken in 2005, before I could afford to spend the time and money to really promote the QDMA goals. I don't shoot "trophy" deer, I prefer a 2.5 yr old buck as it provides lots of meat or a large doe if the MNR deems me worthy & my camera census shows we have lots of does around. Don't believe me? I'll show you lots of photos of my "trophies".
If a monster came by would I shoot it? Almost certainly, but the odds are slim, mostly because many of the surrounding hunters think like you. This is something that I have learned to accept.
'I agree for the most part with what you say. The main point of difference I have would be with what is critical to grow a big buck ...... it's time. If you shoot a spike or a 1.5 yr old he'll NEVER get to be a big "trophy" deer no matter what genetics, nutrition or whatever'
Well of course I agree you need time for that 1.5yr old to grow up.BUT without the conditions I mentioned he probably still will not turn out to be a Trophy animal because they are not the norm.
A doe will take a buck on the longest run of its life and hence test its fitness to mate with.A large rack actually handicaps the Trophy animal.A buck in "normal conditions" after the stress and chasing of the rut,after using valuable nutrients healing from wounds inflicted and then getting through a tough winter simply cannot afford the nutrients left to go towards large antler growth.
I saw some beautiful bucks here on the forum from a recent hunt and they were all big bodies animals with very decent racks.But I will bet dollars to donuts they were taken in heavily farmed southern Ontario where the optimal conditions existed for their growth.
There it is..that nasty little rub....the bane of those who preach QDMA..darn neighbours who don't participate in the philosophy. ..LOL..Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
That comment alone Gregoire is how I know your not being honest about your motives....
"Make things up"..do tell me what I have said that wasn't factual ?
All I've attempted to do is dispel the propaganda that the QDMA folk feed to the public. I had a food plot for a few years..but I was never disingenuous about with the reason I had it...it was for late season 'living' bait to attract deer to my property. No sanctimonious clap trap about providing year round nutrition to the herd. My neighbours 50 acres of corn/soya feilds 400 yds away did that nicely.
As a hunter, I accept that my role is to cull deer in the effort to control the population of deer in my MWU as part of the MNR's responsibility to maintain deer at population at levels that are sustainable to the herd, to keep them healthy....that is how I give back.
NOT shooting deer, spike or 4 points, you become part of the problem. Avoiding them for some testosterone driven desire to shot a mature buck is counter productive to the prime reason we're out there hunting.
Most Camps have the right idea, "if it's brown it down"...put a dent in the population, all deer are fair game, fill the pole, put meat in everyone's freezer. If you pass on a small buck flushed by the doggers, waiting for a mature buck, you'll likely get to your butt reamed and rightfully so.
"Think like me" ??? ..how do you know how I think ?
I have a man cave wall full of mature racks that I have shot and take pride in, they are trophies that represent time well spent honing my craft. I just don't target them, they are shot by happenstance, right place at the right time...luck, a hunters best friend !!
Sure wish more folks around here would practice QDMA. The best part being when that buck they're trying to grow into a "shooter" hops the fence and wanders into my area.
Now that's a proper glass-half-full opinion!Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
When it comes to QDMA this article is the one that rang loudest for me. In particular the part I quoted.
NO THANK YOU!
http://www.petersenshunting.com/unca...ining-hunting/
Quote:
Shortly after dark, my buddy pulled up in his truck with his 13-year-old son. You didn’t have to look in the bed to know there was a buck there; you could see it on the boy’s face. As he grinned from ear to ear, his story rolled off his tongue in one strung-together, breathless, barely coherent sentence. He proudly told us about how he shot his deer, how he couldn’t get a shot at the bigger one that came by, but when this one came into his shooting lane he dropped it at 100 yards. It was his first buck, and it made me realize how exciting a buck—any buck—should be.
The buck was a basket-racked 125-class 10-point that was probably 2½ years old. You could tell from the looks on some of the hunters’ faces that this deer was too young for the farm’s guidelines. One hunter started to chastise the boy, but before he could get very far, I cut in and shook the boy’s hand. Others followed suit. “A hell of a deer. Congratulations. Nice shot.” The boy beamed with pride as his hand was pumped. As I walked inside I thought to myself, What the heck has this world come to? When a kid should pass up a 10-point buck to let it grow another year, I’ve had my fill of it. How many years does he need to sit and pass up deer before one comes along that meets what other hunters think is acceptable? Do we really think he
will stick around the sport, or will he simply gravitate to something that is more rewarding and exciting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Sad isn't it? I blame the wildtv syndrome for it. If the young generation buys into this cr@p the hunting tradition is doomed. The real world of deer hunting isn't having somebody drive you out to a baited field in Iowa in a $70k Dodge Ram and then look over a dzn bucks and passing because none qualify for B&C. Any legal deer should be something a hunter is pleased with and to look down on anybody for doing that is deplorable. I also think that very few deer camps fall for this stuff. Most of us enjoy the experience and the size of the rack is not why we deer hunt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
This is exactly why I will NEVER support QDMA philosophy,in fact, I would consider actively campaigning against if they get too high and mighty.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Just sow you know. They have been studying deer for a long time because bucks are able to BORROW calcium to grow antlers and replace it later. Also, does provide 50% of the genetics to growing antlers. So doe fawns are really important in caring the genes for antler traits.
They have never done studies on doe displacement, but from experience. Mature does will displace doe fawns provided their not killed.
A few things that caused me to self reflect:
What made me even begin this thread?
Well, I have thought about baiting because I want a buck.
Who doesn't want a deer?
Ok. So. Learned from this forum that baiting can make deer sick.
Tossed that idea out the window(besides I'm not going to haul in food every few days).
Obviously, realizing that I could unintentionally make deer sick, I thought to myself that there must be a better way. What could I do to help the deer and to be completely honest, help fill my tag.
Next topic that piqued my interest as a way to attract deer was food plots. Seemed like a great way to give back.
Then I stumbled upon QDMA and that opened up even more questions in my mind on how to attract deer and help them as well.
MP made a comment that forced me to think about my own self serving motives.
Yes I want to attract deer, to help the deer but in the end, my personal motive is self serving.
If I were to simply make a food plot and not hunt then I would not be self serving.
There is so much to be learned.
So many sides to be heard.
Surely though, not every single aspect of a program can be wrong.
Can it?
Is it not possible to that there is some good to be had from doing some of the things that QDMA does, such as providing food and shelter, the taking of only big bucks, aside?
Is QDMA the only program/course available of it's kind?
Any other programs to be recommended?
I'm kind of leaning towards just letting things be. No food plot.
My does are doing fine and after examining my own personal motives, I'm not feeling real good about them.
It's difficult to sort it all out and I do not want to be brain washed into thinking one way or the other.
It is nice to see both positions debated.
In the end, I guess I've got to do what I can live with, after I have all of the information.
How can I get all of the information if I don't take a course?
Geesh...being new is a huge learning curve.
I appreciate it when I'm forced to self reflect and I learn from it, from both sides.
Don't worry about putting out a bit of bait, the deer will be fine. Especially if you're baiting in an area where the same type of food has been available throughout the year. If you were to put out a bunch of corn in the last week in December and the deer in your area have been feeding on browse for a month it might be a different story, but in the Central and Southern part of the province a bit of bait won't hurt. You don't have to haul in vast amounts, just carry a small amount in with you each time you go and put it out before you leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
......Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I would start by joining QDMA (it's inexpensive) and read from their website / magazine. You don't really need to take the course to learn about their stewardship goals. I've never taken the course but have completed lots of habitat enhancement projects just from reading their info and lots of other sources. They get into everything from pruning / planting apple trees to prescribed burning, selective timber harvesting, food plots etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
There is nothing wrong with making a food plot to attract deer to your property. Realize though that it a lot of work and not cheap either. Deer will benefit which is a good thing. Also realize that during the rut bucks will travel outside their home ranges so the bucks you feed could get shot off your land but then again you could shoot one who moved in. Does don't tend to migrate unless they winter in a yard.
Also nothing wrong with baiting. You are a hunter who has made the personal decision to kill deer. Improving your odds of humanely killing one is what you should strive for. Baiting if done properly will not harm deer. Up until the close of archery they are still on the move and their metabolism hasn't transitioned into winter survival mode. If you were to bait in February that would be very different. If you can find it "the deer of North America" by Leonard Lee Rue will educate you on deer behaviour quicker then you can observe in the field. Deer hunting can be very addictive. I was for many years. My advice would be to not get wrapped up in the quest for scores. Kill as many as you legally can and you will learn something new almost every time. I have one nice trophy buck that I mounted and I smile every time I look at it. I'm just as happy to shoot a spike if it's what I see.
Done and done.
"The Deer of North America" book and joining QDMA to get their magazine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
100% agree with you.
I think if you describe your unique hunting situation,rough location,acreage,neighboring lands,there are hundreds of years of experience on here to draw from which will enable you to make informed decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
[COLOR=#333333]As a hunter, I accept that my role is to cull deer in the effort to control the population of deer in my MWU as part of the MNR's responsibility to maintain deer at population at levels that are sustainable to the herd, to keep them healthy....that is how I give back. Killing deer is giving back? Wow, talk about hooey!
A lot of Mikes post was pretty funny but this paragraph was the best and the reply the funniest.LOL
Good for you. It's a fantastic resource.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
GW11 summed it up nicely..it's a red herring that the no-baiting crowd uses as a scare tactic.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Another good post...Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
My moto is you can not eat horns.. So enjoy deer hunting and hunt for you.. A trophy is in the eye of the hunter.
:) I only have a tag for a buck, that's why I keep saying a buck instead of a deer....funny tidbit...my best gf who is a newbie too, when asked if she wanted to be put in the draw, replied "No thank you".Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
.....the next day when we met for coffee and she told me, we nearly fell over laughing cuz she thought it was a draw for some kind of hunting trip lottery, not realizing she may have gotten a doe tag. Tee Hee Hee
Two women with buck tags.
1 mentor.
What are the odds? LOL
:) I only have a tag for a buck, that's why I keep saying a buck instead of a deer....funny tidbit...my best gf who is a newbie too, when asked if she wanted to be put in the draw, replied "No thank you".Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
.....the next day when we met for coffee and she told me, we nearly fell over laughing cuz she thought it was a draw for some kind of hunting trip lottery, not realizing she may have gotten a doe tag. Tee Hee Hee
Two women with buck tags.
1 male mentor.
What are the odds? LOL
Too funny! When a CO asks her if she has a PAL tell her not to say "yes, I do , it's Noseyarentcha"Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
Just one more point before I fade to black on this thread...
The QDMA folks have this premise that their efforts to create 'Quality Deer' ..(their euphemism for Trophy Racks)...are some how more altruistic because they 'give back' by creating safe environments and provide nutrition for the deer. Unfortunately that is at odds with the MNR/Biologist that do not condone mans interventions in managing deer, it's not welcomed and is ill advised and in some case illegal.
Deer are wild animals that are more than capable of taking care of themselves. In fact they do so well in some agricultural areas they become over populated and become a problem with human/deer conflicts and they over burden their food resources. That's when we, hunters, are used to cull the herds to bring the ratios (#/KM) back in line. The MNR issues more Doe tags and make more surplus tags available to achieve those goals, for the over all health and well being of the herd.
So I stand by my statement; as a hunter, I do my part to 'give back' by killing deer without exceptions . By doing so, it reduces the overall population, not just the Mature Bucks and increases the overall survivability of the whole herd.
The goal of the yearly cull (hunt) is to manage the deer ratio per km so as to ensure the remaining deer have sufficient food/space to survive the winters and reduce human/deer conflicts. Period. Hunting only for 'Quality/Mature/Trophy Racked' deer is counter productive in achieving that goal, especially when a hunter would rather eat tag soup than kill a 4 point buck, doe or fawn...and I have hunted with a few like that.
"Beam me outta here Scotty" ...LOL
Omg stopppp...i just arrived at my hunting spot and i can't stop laughing! ....throwing phone in pond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
MIKEPAL
"The QDMA folks have this premise that their efforts to create 'Quality Deer' ..(their euphemism for
Trophy Racks)...are some how more altruistic because they 'give back' by creating safe environments and provide nutrition for the deer. Unfortunately that is at odds with the MNR/Biologist that do not condone mans interventions in managing deer, it's not welcomed and is ill advised and in some case illegal."
Really the MNR/Biologist do not condone mans interventions in managing deer,its not welcome and is ill advised and in some cases illegal.
Wow I feel really bad now because the MNR staff in Bancroft gave me money in two separate years to "create food-plots" on my property with the plan setting out where they were and so forth.So before you fly away in your space ship maybe you can explain this.
It was also not a "ONE OFF" as friends also got the same grants. LOL
Here Gilroy, just to clarify before I go to supper....I didn't say food plots specific but man's intervention in general
Here's a sampling....lots more
http://barrie.ctvnews.ca/mobile/mnr-says-wild-animals-don-t-need-help-getting-feed-yet-1.1643010
http://www.muskokaregion.com/news-st...feed-the-deer/
http://www.myhaliburtonnow.com/9391/...-to-feed-deer/
http://www.myparrysoundnow.com/11369...d-to-problems/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...arns-1.2489096
I think you're giving the MNRF quite a bit of credit here. WMU's are large. Depending on what part of the province you're in, the differences in whitetail population, sex ratio, and age ratio can be drastic over just a few kms, based on a million different factors. From my experiences with the QDMA, the biggest activity they encourage before doing anything, is to take a census, scout, and understand what your hunting area has. Then provide ideas to improve responsibly. I'll never understand what the resistance to this is for some. There seems to be some here that paint the entire organization and general philosophy with a broad brush.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I find they provide valuable information for those who want to become more involved in their hunting experience beyond taking the first animal available and calling it a year.
Don't worry fellas, you're safe, Ontario won't be putting in antler restrictions anytime soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Well I,am sorry to break and news to you but mans intervention is actually what is making the herd prosper everything we do and have done the deer have benefited from,be it logging to farming and everything in between.
p.s. All those warnings form the MNR its not that long ago they pushed for winter feeding and even provided the means.
Extremely well stated. The MNR Doesn't do what's best for the deer herd, they fulfill gov't objectives based on the input of farmers, the insurance industry, animal rights advocates, hunters and others. They can't even tell you the deer density in any given WMU (yes, I tried to obtain that info and all I got was an estimate of 2 - 5 deer per sq. km. for "much of eastern Ontario", based on harvest reports), because they don't have the manpower or money... QDMA teaches you how to do a camera census to determine an accurate figure for your area.Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
When they were giving out doe tags like candy a number of years ago we didn't fill many tags because it was obvious from our survey that it was a bad idea. We could have hammered the doe population (as I'm sure "some people" did) with the gov'ts blessing, but we knew better and, as a result, in recent years, have had better results than many gangs just a few miles from here.
Not going to get into the whole QDMA thing as for the most part I more or less agree with a lot of what you have posted. However I do not think it is quite as black and white as you are trying to make it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
The very fact that the MNR issues tags and in some cases antlerless tags and/or additionals contradicts the first statement. By doing so the MNR is directly supporting mans intervention in managing deer populations.
The second statement is true but is not "period." In many northern WMUs that have moose for instance the MNR is actively trying to reduce deer numbers to well below carrying capacity with the primary goal being to give the Moose a leg up on the deer. This is well documented in the Cervid Ecological Framework document published by the province:
https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...086/263997.pdf
The framework also makes reference to habitat management with the primary mechanism being forestry management. This sounds to me like more intervention by man and makes reference to both public and privately held land. Lastly (there may be more - I only skimmed the document) the framework makes reference to managing populations for aboriginals, hunting, cultural benefits, tourist and viewing opportunities, and to prevent conflicts. The reference to hunting is not in the context of a "culling tool" but rather as a benefit. The way you are presenting hunting it sounds like if the population were the way the MNR wanted it than there would be no hunting as culling would not be necessary. I do not believe that is the case but rather that the MNR partly manages the population so that we can conduct cultural/economic activities like hunting with the added population benefit of culling when/where necessary.
Quote from the framework:
"The goal of Ontario’s broader cervid management program is to ensureecologically sustainable cervid populations and the ecosystems on which theyrely, for the continuous ecological, cultural, economic and social benefits for thepeople of Ontario."
I read that as saying the population is managed (by man) so that we can have hunting as a cultural and economic activity. The way you have framed it is that we have culling to manage - order (and priority to me) is reversed.
I agree that the MNR is usually about two or three years behind what is actually happening with the deer population but the "some people" you refer to are actually the vast majority of hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
You're free to practice what you like but the reality is that the majority I refer to are never going to get on board with QDMA practices. Your apparent disdain for the average meat hunter or average hunter in general is what gets under people's skin. I don't have any issues with you practicing what interests you on your property. Why does is bother you that the rest of us partake in a perfectly legal and enjoyable form of deer hunting? I like a nice set of antlers when I luck into them, but every deer is a trophy to me and the fellows I hunt with.
We're all on the same team, our style of play is different, that's all. There will still be plenty of deer in the province long after you and I are gone, regardless of how we hunt them and what we choose to shoot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Just posting a couple quotes is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
I realize he says that he has no problem but the "tone" is there. Particularly where he makes reference to "some people" hammering the doe population with the blessing of the government. Why wouldn't they? Only a small percentage of deer hunters are selective in what they shoot, the rest are going to shoot what's legal. Self regulation is just never going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
You and I went down this road a couple of years ago but I think we came to an understanding. I fully respect the time and energy you guys put into what you do and love. It's just not for me. What gets under my skin is when those like me are looked down upon for not going along with that practice.
Guess you skipped over my posts. I have no problem with others doing what they want as long as it's legal. I do have a problem with lies about QDMA. I do have a problem with people disparaging an organization that they know nothing about, an organization that does a lot of good. The "some people" was a reference to a few particular trolls in this thread, don't try to read something into it that isn't there. Also, I hunt for meat, but I'm selective. I want to harvest a deer that's big enough to actually provide some meat. Shooting a fawn, spike, yearling doe won't do that. Passing on small deer allows them to get bigger...... why does that seem like such a bad idea to some? Seems to me that those people are the ones bothered by harvest practices. I've readily admitted that I would shoot a deer with big horns. who wouldn't?, but I also stated that my favourite harvest is a 2.5 yr old buck as it's still tender but big enough to provide some meat. A 2.5 yr old buck doesn't have "big horns" does it?Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
I read your posts but missed what you meant by "some people".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
While I have never made comments about QDMA as an organization, the practical application of the principles here in Ontario don't make sense to me. Passing on a smaller buck only makes sense if your neighbour doesn't shoot him ten minutes later. If he's not what your looking for, that's your choice but unless you have vast private acreage, that might be the one and only time you ever see that deer. In reading your other posts you've learned to accept that possibility. Fair enough.
For what it's worth, I've passed on deer in the years when I had no trouble putting meat in the freezer to wait for more of a "trophy". Unfortunately, in recent years I'm lucky to have more than one good chance at any deer at all throughout the season so I take what I can get. If I pass, the next guy won't and my chance has come and gone. That's a totally foreign concept to some people in this province. Some get frustrated when they don't see deer every time they go out.
Hopefully you can understand my frustration with the idea that someone would frown on me for shooting whatever legal deer provides the best opportunity. Maybe I'm too quick to jump to conclusions about someone based on the perceived tone of a few posts and a little too defensive about hunters more like myself.
And a 2.5 year old buck? I'd say his antlers are "big enough".[emoji1]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Honestly, I can live with someone else taking a small buck that I passed on. The first time it happened I felt a little angry and sick about it. Now I'm okay with it. I'm pretty sure a lot of them manage to make it thru the season, because I'm seeing more mature bucks 2.5 yrs of age and older, than I used to. Besides, if it means that someone else gets to harvest a spike etc., especially a kid, a new hunter or a hunter ending a long drought, and it means a lot to them, then why not? I just know that I'd be disappointed in myself for doing it. People can hate on me for that but I like setting the bar a little higher........ besides if I tag out too early my wife has a pile of honey-do's for me to complete.;)
Back by popular demand ;)
I think for [COLOR=#333333]QDMA to work properly you need to have some requirements already in place.
#1. You need land that can support the growth of plants,forage.
#2 You need equipment,time and money.
#3. You need neighbors for a distance around you that "buy into" this concept.
So basically landowners are more able to do this than individuals who just have permission to hunt over land.
If your hunting southern Ontario farm lands I think the farmers have basically done half the work for you, so your limited in how you can achieve results without fellow hunters hunting near by who will play the same game.
I really think the QDM is a concept started in the USA and much more suited to their landscape, warmer weather,more deer....
For those of us hunting the Big Woods in Ontario QDM is fine on your own land but will achieve limited results.If your in traditional deer woods and do not own at least A THOUSAND acres of land its probably a waste of time.Smaller parcels your basically feeding deer for neighbors and passing up on deer that will be shot by some one else.
I still incorporate a food plot into my vegetable garden each year and it has worked out great for me but it is a lot of time and effort.
I think that if you don't have #1, you likely aren't hunting deer as deer need to eat to live, and if the land can't grow plants they likely aren't around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
For #2, I certainly don't have any fancy equipment or much money to spend on habitat enhancement. I like to enhance habitat through promoting native species that deer like to eat. In my area, these are shade-intolerant herbaceous species like raspberry, pokeweed, etc. that will pop out of the ground if you get light to them. They also double as fawning and bedding habitat. For this, I do use a chainsaw, but I bought it to get the wood to heat my home so I wouldn't call it a hunting investment. Much of QDM is just 'trigger management' which is free.
For #3, I definitely agree that if you have like-minded neighbours, your efforts will go much farther. However, you might be surprised on what you can achieve on small acreage. I have seen the results first hand of QDM on several properties where the neighbours practice a "brown its down" hunting strategy, and they are quite remarkable.
QDM is a logical step for folks who spend a lot of time hunting deer. Most of the people who get involved in QDM are folks that have the opportunity to tag out in early October, but want to keep hunting until December. They are folks who spend their late winter searching for antlers and want to spend their spring and summer doing something deer-related as well, so they do some habitat management or food plot stuff. In late summer, they might bait some cameras to take a census on their local herd, or do a browse survey to estimate carrying capacity. They do things to stretch their deer hunting into a year-round passion.
QDM is not for everyone. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't fault anyone for how they want to hunt (provided it is legal and follows basic hunter ethics). Lots of people love to knock QDM and spread lies about QDMA. I just don't see why hunters would want to knock me for the way I hunt just because it is different from theirs.
Well stated benjhind, my experience exactly. I'd also add that the MNR can't do micro-managing of properties, which a landowner can. That doesn't mean I can shoot a pile of does if my camera census shows an abundance of them, but it will allow me to refrain from it if my cameras tell me there aren't enough around to allow a sustainable harvest.
I think people need to consider other people's reasons for hunting especially in view of the different stages of a persons hunting life cycle.
http://1source.basspro.com/index.php...ch-one-are-you
I know myself I've been through a couple of these but I've also noticed how I've been progressing through them.
People looking to practice qdma are likely not in the first two groups but instead fall in the last 3. I see a lot of people assuming that people who try to make improvements to their properties fall into the trophy hunter category. I'm not a qdma guy per se but I started putting a radish plot so the wildlife didn't have scrounge as much during the winter. Does it help me hunt? Not really because there are so many other food sources during hunting season. Does it help the wildlife? Sure does.
Very good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozyleroux
I spend far more time making my bushlot more suitable for wildlife than I do hunting.
I get a lot of satisfaction from trail cam pics and seeing deer, bear and turkey's around.
I treat QDMA like I treat religion - take what is good from it and ignore the parts you're not happy with.
Bigbear your signature is one of the best I've seen yet....paints an especially nice picture in my head ;)
Lol.
Priceless!
You just gave me an idea for a new thread and you got my vote. ;)
.....and keep an eye on 'em.......like a hawk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbear
I know I bowed out of this thread a while back, but a member seems to be insistent that I was being dishonest, so lets clear that up shall we..
The background;
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Clarifying my statement doesn’t seem to have satisfied Gregoire, who continues to insist that I was dishonest in stating that QDMA practices have their roots in captive deer practices.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
The facts;Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
QDMA back in it’s infancy in 1997 appointed Brian Murphy as their CEO :
So who is Brian Murphy, from his Bio…:
Brian P. Murphy is the Chief Executive Officer of the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA), a position he has held since 1997. He is also a wildlife biologist with a B.S. degree in Range and Wildlife Management from Texas Tech University and a M.S. degree in Wildlife Biology from the University of Georgia.”
But what QDMA fails to fully disclose in his bio, is where Brian Murphy got his background with deer management;
“Following graduation, Brian worked as a Wildlife Research Coordinator for the University of Georgia where he coordinated all deer research at the deer breeding facility.”
It’s at this facility in Georgia, a fenced captive game farm, that Mr. Murphy obtained his knowledge about ‘Quality Deer Management”. And that knowledge, as I have stated, is at the roots in what is now being practiced by the QDMA.
Lets hope that puts that to rest..I was neither “incredibly misinformed”, nor did I post a “misstatement”.
Just because you don't know the facts, doesn't mean I'm “dishonest” for posting them.
edit add: If you want to see a sampling what goes on at the University of Georgia research facility. here's a link
http://http://www.ugadeerresearch.or...ceptibility-2/
Not sure about the deer farms - but QDMA's early growth was in states which traditionally had buck only harvests and huge deer populations made up of mostly does and fawns (Michigan and Pennsylvania come to mind, but there are many others). To some extent in Michigan and to an extreme in Pennsylvania, hunters have become used to shooting does and fawns and the deer populations are more balanced. Both states now have some antler restrictions on bucks. Ontario never had this problem.
So while I do support QDMA's habitat improvement ideas, I can't support antler restrictions, and I wouldn't even think of buying their overpriced seeds and mineral supplements.
QDMA is not a seed and mineral company. It is a hunting advocacy organization like Delta Waterfowl or OFAH.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
They don't sell mineral, so I'm not sure how you think their mineral is overpriced, since it doesn't exist. Here is an article they wrote about the known facts regarding mineral supplements and deer:
https://www.qdma.com/minerals-for-whitetails/
Quote:
Don’t expect to see trophy bucks walking around this fall just because you gave them a mineral boost this spring. While the advantages of mineral supplementation have not been clearly documented, neither have any disadvantages.
Yes, you can buy a $25 bag of "Bio Logic" brand seed through their US website, but you likely can't import it due to the Seeds Act. Again, their purpose is education and advocacy, not peddling products.
Several of QDMA's employees have been deer researchers in the past. Yes, researchers often rely on captive animals to do their work.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
When I see the phrase "game farm", I think of a high-fence hunting operation, not a research facility. High fence game farms are something the QDMA has advocated against long and hard, so associating the two is where I originally took issue with your post.
There are many QDMA organisations selling outside of QDMA.com. Example below.Quote:
Originally Posted by benjhind
"The newly formed,http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/fo...es/woohoo1.gif, West Central Michigan branch of the QDMA, has a working agreement with "Grandpa Ted's Products, LLC", to sell their products as a fund raiser for the branch. All products are priced below srp, through the branch.
They have 2 types of mineral, apple or anise scented. I have not used these yet, but other board members have, and they are very pleased with the stuff. They come in 10lbs containers, and we can sell them for $10.00 each.
The seed blends listed are packed/priced at 1lbs.
Hunters plot: mix of annuals & perennials $5.00
35% New Zeeland clover, 35% Ladino clover, 15% Alfalfa, 7% Small Burnet and 8% forage rape. 1lbs/1000 sq ft 40lbs/acre
Bucks and Beards: perennials $4.00
30% New Zeeland clover, 30% Ladino clover, 20% Alfalfa, 10% perennial Rye grass, 10% Orchard grass. 1lbs/1000sq ft 30lbs/acre
Big Buck Buffet: annuals $2.50
45% Dwarf Sorghum, 35% Proso Millet, 10% Buck Wheat, 10% Black Oil Sunflowers. 1lbs/2000sq ft 50lbs/acre
Other seeds or blends are available, just ask.
If anyone is interested, shoot me a pm, or call (616) 772-6245."
Then we have QDMA partners like trophyrock http://www.trophyrock.com/partners/
OOD has sponsors, advertisers and promotions for fundraising too just like QDMA, is there a difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
"The Facts:"
QDMA was formed by Joe Hamilton and others in 1988. He was the first executive director.
Brian Murphy was hired by the association as executive director in 1995. There were 2 executive directors before he came on the scene.
Brian's education might have, in part, been at a fenced farm. I think this is typical of many wildlife researchers. However, he didn't start the organization or set their mandate, that was done by others with their own money and sweat equity. These prople weren't high fenced deer farmers, they were for the most part average guys that wanted to improve on what was being done at the time. For anyone interested in the truth, rather than a deliberately slanted & edited set of "facts" check out the following link.
https://www.qdma.com/about/mission-and-history/
OOD isn't making its mission into a for-profit commercial venture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
And where the items they sell in their online store are overpriced, I don't buy them either.
The QDMA has been disingenuous with almost every aspect of their mandate and mission...trying to get the 'facts' from their literature is pointless...and providing the truth not found in their literature is not 'slanting' the facts, it's called fact checking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
When did they become a for-profit company? It's still a registered charity from what I can tell. Do you have a link?
https://secure3.convio.net/deer/site...221F3D20&idb=0
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Yes, I'm quite familiar with your "truth". "LOL"
I’m bowing back out of this again…there will always be people who refuse to challenge their beliefs regardless of the facts that put them in question, better to call others dishonest than to accept that your being dishonest with yourself.
All in all, this has become a pointless exercise.
Ta ta
I see no difference between QDMA, Delta Waterfowl, Ducks Unlimited, NWTF, Ruffed Grouse Society, or Pheasants Forever. They are all charitable or non-profit organizations trying to enhance the habitat and well being of a specific animal group. They all have on-line stores selling a variety of products to produce revenue for their projects, as well as other fund raisers. I'm sure you could find people with a bug up their arse for any of these organizations, but, as far as I'm concerned, even though I may not agree with all their philosophies, they are helping the various wildlife they are associated with, as well as other collateral species.
Well stated. To each his own. Unless an organization is deliberately spreading lies and causing harm or a limitation on others rights (PETA for example) then why slam it and knock others because they choose to belong? I think NWTF does a lot of good work but I quit supporting them when they pulled out of Canada years ago. I'd never knock someone else for supporting them though.Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
Was there not some fraud with the NWTF before they pulled out of Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoire1960
They were claiming "charitable donation" status here,but,they were siphoning Canadian money out of the country to fund American projects leaving nothing for use by member clubs here. They lost their charitable status after they were exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Up my way one of the chapters Presidents apparently helped himself to the funds entrusted,left a real bitter taste with local chapter.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Can't speak to the others, but there was a column in Ontario Farmer a few years back that Ducks Unlimited Canada had sucked up over $20 million tax-dollars from Federal and Provincial governments. That's a lot of taxpayer dollars going to a charity. I thought charities were supposed to raise their own money.Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
I think that the government gives the large allotments of money to various organizations because they are performing tasks that the government would be on the hook for 100%. Instead, the government provides partial funding, and the organization looks after the rest. So, while 20 million seems like a large amount to give to an organization, it may be a bargain if it performs a service that would have cost the government 30 million to do on its own i.e. rehabilitate a former wetland.
Back in the day.....
So,what's with the necro-thread revival?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
When the fish aren't biting, you change it up I guess...Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
:moose::moose:Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Oh pretty good thread that some of the members who joined in the last 4 years may not have seen.One of the better one,s with over 15,000 views and that did not get closed off.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21