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With the second controlled hunt coming up next week I thought this a timely scenario. You're on public land in your stand and you hear shooting off in the distance. An hour later you hear a couple of shots much closer. A half hour after that a deer comes along (make or model doesn't matter) with a broken leg. Boom! You kill it. A short while later another hunter comes along tracking the deer and claims he shot it (first). Who tags the deer? TC
The shooter that KILLS the deer whether someone else is trailing it,or not. The FWCA is quite clear. Deer must be tagged immediately and at the site of the kill. Too bad for the other hunter,but,dems da breaks.
Sounds about right !Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
The guy that kills the deer. The other hunters needs to practise shooting. Had he target practise, he would have killed the deer.
We had one pass by my dad and I, no doe tags at the time, it was a yearling with a limp, it sucked that we could not take it.
You finished it off, you tag it.
In our organized camp we have a first blood rule. This comes more in to play if it has nice head gear as we share the meat evenly. In your situation, it's your deer.
But I might add, it if comes to you with a definite kill wound and you just finish it off I would say it's not your deer. Just my 2c.
It is a condemnation of the shooting skills of some Ontario hunters that leads you to ask such a question.
You shoot/it dies/it’s yours… The shooter that KILLS the deer whether someone else is trailing it, or not.
Still what about GuyJR who says: “it if comes to you with a definite kill wound and you just finish it off I would say it's not your deer”.
Lamentations for anyone who has to hunt so close to another hunter that a “dead deer running”--- let’s say75 yards max--- could end up in your sights.
But that does specify a distance.
Well shot ---75 yards would be long run.
If you shoot/finish a staggering deer that was shot by another hunter just 75 yards away, well you are absurdly close to the other hunter
200+ yards from the initial shooter?—well that’s a bad shot. If it ends up on someone else’s property and they “finish/shoot” the deer—I’d say it’s theirs.
The whole question makes me glad I live up north where this is almost never an issue.
The Buck my friend shot 2 weeks ago, on crown land went about 100-150yards Easy. Have no doubt if I checked my gps log, that (100 yards) would be the minimum.
As we were gathering our gear to track it, ( We met at the trucks as it was getting close to last legal) we heard a shot from nearby. He naturally was worried that someone else had just finished it. Given its meat is now in my freezer (we found it about 10-15 minutes after that shot) I suppose the "worries" he's a bad shot are past.
Hunt with a guy that shot a doe in the neck (archery), it went a good 200 yards before it sprayed blood everywhere and dropped like a rock on the spot "there", a good 200 yards away.
Funny thing about Adrenaline.
It can give humans "super" strength, some people have been known to lift cars to save another life. If you talk to EMS they will have all kinds of stories about the "walking wounded and walking dead". People who get out of mangled cars and walk, sometimes on crushed bones and worse.
Heck if some humans have been know to be fatally shot, yet find their ways to hospitals, or run a few hundred yards....make it all the home before piling up in their drive ways..........Many hunters, don't understand why sometimes their meat taste like hell. Don't understand that that farther it runs, the more Adrenaline was coursing through its veins, and lactic acid build up...
Strange things happen, and Adrenaline can cause all kinds of "not possible" things to happen.
*****
If someone finishes an animal, be it a WT, Bear or other. Whoever finishes it tags it. Would in theory save arguments. However I've always wondered how two guys standing in the woods, looking at a dead buck with two holes in it know which hole, belongs to which person. Maybe it was the second shooter that gut shot it, but because it was close to death anyways, that was the proverbial "straw".
:)
Thankfully, the law resolves the argument, at least with respect to who tags it.
I had this happen to me two years ago, other hunter on neighboring property shot it with buck shot and it ran past me (still quite strong, but hit). I finished it off and let the other man have the deer (but I do agree I could have kept it as I finished it, but IMO it would have died eventually had I not shot it). The other hunter has happily surprised I let him have it.
Below are the sections that apply.
Quote:
17. (1) The holder of a licence who has killed a moose, deer, elk, bear, wild turkey, wolf or coyote shall, (a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with or purchased for the licence or licence tag to the game wildlife in the manner indicated in the instructions that accompany the seal; and
(b) keep the seal attached to the game wildlife while it is being transported and, in the case of wild turkey, keep the seal attached to the wild turkey until it is prepared for consumption. O. Reg. 276/05, s. 1; O. Reg. 529/10, s. 2 (1); O. Reg. 48/11, s. 1.
20. A holder of a licence to hunt game wildlife that requires a seal under section 17 shall not attach his or her seal to game wildlife that has been killed by another person. O. Reg. 276/05, s. 2; O. Reg. 54/10, s. 5.
Notwithstanding Sec 22, Ont Reg. 665/89Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
The rule i go by is if it has a fatal hit and would die in short time (not days later) I will not contest the first shooter tagging it. If it is a leg wound and the game would keep running then it’s mine.
This has happened on the deer hunt where a hunter shot and wounded a deer in the lower leg. It got pushed to us and one of our guys killed it. The original shooter showed up as we were cleaning it. We both inspected it and since the first shot was not a kill shot we both agreed who killed it should keep with no issues.
Seems this is an offshoot to this question a few years ago in this thread
http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...ghlight=antler
My answer has not changed since that was asked. If the deer was fatally wounded, it should go to the original shooter. Flight response is very strong in deer and they can travel far on adrenaline.
I went through that thread,Dyth. Jeez,there's a few guys there that we don't see anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
That was the right thing to do. There would be no satisfaction for me in claiming a deer that was running dead before I dropped it.Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter1
Thanks for participating in this little quiz. Of course Redd Foxx has the answer which most of you agreed to. I can guarantee though that in the field the discussion would depend on the size of the deer in question. A doe or spike there wouldn't be an argument, a 180 inch buck and I know guys who would argue until the CO showed up that it was their deer. TC
You could also include what end of the hunt you are dealing with. Many would give it up at the beginning, but with a day or 2 left there might be some second thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by trky chsr
If it has run that far..... well I may let the "other guy" have the deer. Go get me one I don't mind chewing on.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Yep! After being wounded and running hard,it'll be gamey as he** and tougher than an old boot,too,no matter what you do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Is buck meat generally more "gamey" than doe meat or does the age of the deer play a part in it as well as how long the deer runs while wounded?
A younger buck is not as gamey as an older one?
What about an older doe?
More gamey than a young buck?
Guess its kind of like an old cow or bull...???
Yep!!! Even the gravy would be tough !!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
LOL I think it all depends on how the deer was taken. A big old buck that runs out of a cedar swamp and gets chased by a couple of hounds for 10k,s might be a little gamey. A nice spike buck shot standing still in a southern Ontario corn field would be better. Probably the younger the animal taken in a area with good food under less stressful conditions tastes better.
A key factor many of us miss is how long the animal is aged. Most beef is killed and packed right away,no aging. Leave that in your fridge 10 days or so before freezing and your going to have much more tender meat.
Nope. And that is a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
OWhat the deer eats is also a big factor. A deer which has access to late season standing corn will taste different that one who is eating browse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Another factor whi h touches on aging is how fast you get the animal cooled. It drives me (and probably alot of guys here) that watch hunting shows when the guy (usually a bowhunter) shoots a deer, makes a claim that it was a great shot, starts to track it and decides to "back out until morning". If it was a great shot, that animal will have expired and should be field dressed and begun to be cooled as quickly as possible. Leaving a dead deer, who has its winter coat, will give the meat a very gamey taste
....if the Coyotes,Bears or Wolves don't get to it,first. We lost a Bull Moose that we shot late,once,when we decided to field dress it and come back at first light to quarter it and carry it out. Bears had got at it and when they were done the Coyotes cleaned up the rest. That was a mistake we never made,again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
We always left our hunting coats on the moose. We never had an issue !Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
For eating I'll take a doe over a buck anyday and a cow over a bull as well. The only difference is with fish--females are crap while the meat on a male is firm and much less 'fishy'.
You didn't proof read THAT before you hit "post" did you? ROFLMAO!!Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
This likely has more to do with filming in daylight then anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Omg I just spit my tea out again!!!! Tooooo funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Poor sawbill. Omg. DYING lol
His post is soooo funny.
Kinda thought you would have been the first to jump on that Trimmer....being a man cougars corner and all ;)
The only "cougars" that ever tried to corner me was when I had my pay cheque in my shirt pocket with the corporate logo facing OUT. It worked,too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
That reminds me of Johnny Carson asking George Burns why he didn't hang around with women his own age and he said "Because there aren't any."
You were baiting those cougars!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Always use bait. Hey,I was single and time was wasting back in the day.LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyJR
I had a buddy, who's view of hunting ethics was that if you can't take the perfect shot, you are better not to shoot at all. A wound animal is just as likely to end up as coyote food as it is to be tracked down and found. Should another hunter have the opportunity and the good fortune to put such an animal out of it's misery, and prevent the above mention possibilities. I would suggest that the kill is his. A lesson to the first hunter who should have taken more care in making his shot placement, or should not have taken a shot at all. It's been my experienced that a well place kill shot, tends to down the animal within the first 100 yards.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
I would absolutely agree that you should take the best shot you can but that is not always practical. If you have ever been part of a southern Ontario deer hunt pushing blocks you know that shooting running deer is the name of the game. Even solidly hit deer can go quite the distance. I also would not consider it good fortune to shoot someones wounded deer. Nor would I want to keep it.
So your buddy has never lost a deer? If so he is lucky. Sometimes stuff happens. For example this fall my son had a very nice deer walk out at 25yds while bowhunting (crossbow). When it was broadside he aimed behind the front leg and shot. Just at that instant the deer must have caught some movement and looked up at my son, turning slightly. The shot ended up entering the neck and poked out just behind the front leg. We tracked that deer over 500yds down a ravine and up on top the other side and when we found him he was laying down but still breathing. I put another bolt in him and finished him off. So what started off as an ethical broadside shot turned into something else. BY the way the deer had 13pts and dressed at 227lbs (which we were made painfully aware of dragging it back down and up that ravine. TCQuote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Anyone who assumes that waiting for a perfect shot will guarantee perfect results has not taken too many shots at live animals. It will undoubtedly reduce the chances of things going wrong but as said above, sometimes stuff happens. You can never account for every variable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyJR
Shooting a running deer, that translates into spray and pray. And when you are shooting at a running deer are you constantly checking the background with each shot you make? This goes beyond making an ethical kill shot, this takes you into hunter safety concerns, and on public land where you have no ideas of where other hunters are it can be extremely dangerous and could prove to be down right fatal, and I don't mean to the deer. Just for the record gut shots are not solid hits, lung and heart are, neck and brain shot can be, but are not recommended. Even shooting at the heart and lungs might not produce a solid hit if the bullet is too light and breaks up before actually penetrating the chest cavity. This can also happen to a bigger bullet that pass through branches before they hits. Again, I'm not likely to change your mind as to how you hunt, you may be very good at hitting deer on the run. In my youth I use to take cottontails on the dead run with my old bolt action .22, but I always knew there was some solid ground behind the rabbit to receive the bullet.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
We must live in much different worlds Gun Nut. I would bet that 70%+ of the deer shot in in the southern Ontario controlled hunt are shot during drives or pushes and more are running than not. Just the reality I see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
so you dont shoot at moving ducks or geese either? i mean if you dont get that perfect kill shot you shouldnt take it right? cause wounding a deer and wounding a duck...whats the difference right there both living animals? Wounding animals is very unfortunate and nobody would feel good doing so, but that doesnt stop you from hunting...pushes are the most effective way to hunt deer so I dont see anyone changing their mentality about it anytime soon. When you shot at running rabbits did you ever miss or miss and not know you wounded one...who knows right.
Hunt hard boys and girls the days are peeling off the calendar fast!
It doesn't translate to spray and pray, that's a very broad assumption to make. Lots of guys are very good at shooting running deer. If you passed up shots on running deer in big woods camps where hounds are used you wouldn't likely be invited back. As for the backstop, the "blockers" are generally set up on known deer runways where they are already positioned to shoot safely in the direction that the deer will be expected to come through. It's done like this all over Ontario every season with no more issue than any other form of hunting so I'm not sure of your point about it being fatally dangerous. Smaller woodlots are pushed by hunters in Southern Ontario and the big woods are dogged by hounds in Central and the near North.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
The first week of gun season last year was very warm here and the deer weren't moving. I ended up resorting to pushing through a swamp in chest waders and barking like a dog to get things moving. My brother ended up making a great shot on a nice 8 pointer that came out of the swamp and ran his way through an alfalfa field. He shot it on the run at 70 yards and it dropped 2 jumps later. He knew where I was (by the barking) and he also knew where our other guys were set up. Nothing unsafe about it whatsoever. A bit of pre-planning, and communication is all that it takes to do it safely.
Obviously I prefer shots at standing broadside deer. I will first try to stop a running deer with a "baaa" sound or any sound for that matter, but that doesn't always work. As a last resort I will pick a spot (with a backstop) just ahead of the deer in the direction that it is heading and shoot when he steps into the sight picture. Not much different than you shooting running rabbits with your .22.
Oh GW you just made me laugh..."I ended up resorting to pushing through a swamp in chest waders and barking like a dog to get things moving."
....I'm gonna send my best gf barking like a dog in the bush and I'm going to film it for her kids :):):)
Yeah it sounds funny and you feel a little goofy doing it, but it worked! This was on a 100 acre farm that has a really wet 20 acre swamp in the middle. We were a group of 5 and we needed to block 4 exits so I went through on my own in a zig-zag pattern. As soon as I started the first "zag" I heard my brother shoot. It's a great feeling when a plan works the way it's supposed to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
The guys barking like dogs used to be pretty common up in 55b. A lot less of it now. I'm not sure how effective it is. If you're close enough to the deer to move it, the deer will know you're there either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha
I'm not sure how effective barking is either, but at the very least it lets the shooters know where the "dog" is.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
We bark in the 2 groups I hunt in, one in 86A and one in 47. Used more to keep the pushers in line and to let the watches know where we are. I dont imagine were tricking the deer much, lol.
Back when my generation started hunting (big bush crown land), we'd bark so that the old timers could tell if we were getting off track (aka lost) and someone could go round us up.
Now I just throw a spare tracking collar in driver's backpack so I can keep tabs on him.
When your hunting in thick woods by yourself it is impossible to know if there is anyone in your line of fire - a hundred or two hundred yards away - if you don't hit the deer and stop the bullet it will in all likely hood hit a tree down range - hopefully -
Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
This threat started out as a question on public land, if you are on exclusive acreage the situation is known and the variable can be taken into account. I'm thinking of a situation where this is not the case, back in 2006 a 67 year-old hiker, who never made her daily trek in the Simcoe County Public Forest during hunting season because she was wary of hunters shooting at deer. She was unaware hunting season had begun. She was fatally shot by a hunter. Dressed in a red turtleneck it was initially thought she was mistaken for a deer. Later at the trial it came out, she hit by a stray shot by a hunter shooting at a deer. The thing about shooting rabbits is they are very low to the ground, so a bullet is almost immediately grounded, that can't be said of deer, and particular if the deer is in full bound.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Plenty of running deer are shot during every gun season on public land Gun Nut. The difference is that most public land is not as crowded as what you're referring to. Obviously, if you're hunting a busy tract of public land you're not going to try pushing or dogging deer because you're just going to push deer to everyone else. Any time we ran dogs on public land we were well aware of whether or not there was another hunter or group in the area and adjusted our plans accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Common sense my friend.
My experience has been if you are not pushing or dogging deer, than the situation is one where you are stocking and jumping deer, and you have made some efforts to control the variable. So this brings us back to the original question if the deer is not downed with a kill shot, and gets through the net formed by your party and is eventually taken by another hunter. Who gets to claim the deer? It's been suggested by others in the forum, and fundamentally inferred with your statement on not pushing or dogging which would push deer to some else, that when on public land, the person who eventually downs the deer with an effective kill shot is the one that claims it.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Quite honestly, in the two decades that I hunted with that camp and the years I spent tagging along as a kid, the issue never came up. We were just never close enough to the other groups for it to be an issue. If it had of came up, we knew most everyone in the area well enough that we would have work it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
A deer shot in the heart with a 180gr 30-06 (I think this is a good and vital shot) can travel a long ways, you are saying that this is not the case?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
You need a dose of reality, traditional hunting in Ontario involves other people in close proximity, hence why we have hunter orange as a requirement. When you have hunters in close proximity no matter how good or bad the deer is shot this can occur and the OPs question is 100% valid.
I can only go upon my personal experience, a sample of which is below:
.243 Win.: 100 grain Jacket Bullet, MV 3,030 fps, straight through the heart at 75 yard.
Distance traveled by deer from the POI about 35 yards.
.303 British: 205 Gas Checked Cast Bullet, MV 2,000 fps, exploded lungs and blew away 1/4 of heart at 35 yards. Distance traveled by deer from POI about 75 yards
12 gauge shotgun: .680 caliber round ball, MV 1200 fps, entered chest a base of neck, at about 20 yards. Distance traveled by deer from POI about 90 yards.
And you're unable to stop a deer with a heart shot using a .30-06 with a 180 grain bullet within 100 yards? Well, maybe I’ve been just lucky, although it seems to me my brother has had some similar results using a 32 Special and a 30-30.
You don’t stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
175 grain Nolser in 7mm mag behind the shoulder.
160 grain Nosler in 7mm mag behind the shoulder.
160 grain Nosler in .280 Rem behind the shoulder.
Distance 40 - 60 yds
All went 3 ft--straight down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Well sawbill, what do you suppose fox is doing wrong with that .30-06?
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Absolutely nothing. I just happen to like velocity with a fairly heavy bullet and that works for me although I did have a moose go 30 yds on a 175 grn partition. I've been lucky by never having an animal, moose or deer go more than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
So it just comes down to luck that the deer I've been shooting in the heart/lung area go down within 100 yard radius of the POI. I though it might have something to do with the range I been shooting them at. I know back in my youth I use to peck away at woodchucks with .303 British and full metal jacket bullets. What I discovered was if I decked one under a 100 yards away it didn't matter where I hit it, the impact of the bullet was explosive. However at a 100 yards and beyond it was like using a .22, I had to nail them in the head. I use to attribute the result to the higher energy of the bullets at close range. I later came across an article on bullet wobble, where it suggested that in the case of the .303 British the bullet didn't settle down and become stable until it reached 100 yards. The unstable bullet has a tendency to tip, while the stabilized bullet tends to pierce. In the case of the deer I hit with the 205 grain cast bullet, and again I'm shooting downwards from a tree platform, the bullet appeared to past through the scapula straight on, but when it reached the rib cage it blow at least an inch square hole in the rib it hit, appearing to have taken a chunk of the rib with it into the chest cavity. What can I say, I reload so I like to analysis what my bullets do. What I've discovered, using a round ball instead of a conical slug, is that round balls go in, but never seem to exit, this could be a result of me not pushing them hard or a shooting angle thing.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because I stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Down within 100 yards is a reasonable general rule for a well-hit deer. In my experience the ones that go further than 100 or so were already wound up to begin with. Already pumping adrenaline from running ahead of hounds or recently jumped/pushed by people. Sometimes they have no visible reaction whatsoever to being shot when their mind is on staying ahead of a dog.