Running Coyotes and Trespassing

A group ran my property with dogs again for coyotes this week.

For those who are unfamiliar with the practice, this is how it works. I'm not overly familiar with the process so correct me where I'm wrong, I'm just going on what I've seen:

1) Release dogs at the road on one side of a concession to find and chase coyotes
2) Drive around the bush, tracking the dogs using GPS or radio tracking collars
3) Shoot coyotes as they are chased from the bush
4) Recover dogs before they cross a road

I'm sure this is a lot of fun and I'm not knocking those who do this legally. The problem is, to do this legally you need permission from the landowners. You need permission from the landowners that own the bush your dogs will run through, and you need permission from the landowners that own the fields that you're going to be shooting from. This means you need permission from EVERY landowner between the roads.

My block is about 1.5 miles in length. There are over 20 landowners, several of whom allow absolutely zero hunting. The hunters have never introduced themselves to me, let alone asked my permission, and there's no way to get through the bush without crossing my land.

I once stopped one of the trucks and asked the guy why he was hunting my land without my permission. He told me "how the **** am I supposed to know where the dogs will go and who owns every little bit of this bush". I told him that a good hint is that the dogs are likely going to go through the bush, and that asking some of the people that live there might be a start. If he has trouble telling the dogs where to go, perhaps he could invest in a leash, as they are cheaper than GPS collars.

I guess this has turned into a bit of a rant. I guess my point is that running dogs without permission and shooting from a roadway are both unethical and gives hunters a bad name.

End rant.

I've often wondered the same thing.

If I remember well there is group called "Coyote are my friends" somewhere around Niagara, the last I heard they are looking for new members...

i always stop and knock on a door to ask and introduce myself,even with my strong accent...the worse thing i got from people saying NO,not a slap in my face
its that simple

You are right, you have the right to determine who is on your property, period. If they are running dogs and they do not have permission they know exactly what they are doing.

Hunting what some would call vermin does not dismiss trespassing laws.

You have talked to them and mentioned it to them and they have acted like jerks, call the cops on them, they do not have the right to be there.

I bet if they had come to you and asked you would have had a lot less problems then them just going and doing it.

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Originally Posted by seabast

If I remember well there is group called "Coyote are my friends" somewhere around Niagara, the last I heard they are looking for new members...

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Ah yes, you got me there. *slow clap*

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Originally Posted by Fox

You have talked to them and mentioned it to them and they have acted like jerks, call the cops on them, they do not have the right to be there.

I bet if they had come to you and asked you would have had a lot less problems then them just going and doing it.

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To be honest, after the argument with them last time, I actually told them that if they wanted to hunt the block in the future, I likely wouldn't object as long as they asked me first. I'm not sure whether it was the same people this time as it was my wife who saw them.

Again, though, there are several landowners who allow no hunting whatsoever, so they still shouldn't be running the block.

There's a bunch of coyote hunters around here that hunt over a 4 square mile area. One of the main guys is a well known and popular local butcher. Many of the larger tracts of land are owned by farmers who obviously have no issues with coyote hunters, but there is the odd landowner around who doesn't like hunting. They have asked for and received permission for most areas including a large quarry. The lads hunt according to wind conditions after touring around on sleds to find tracks and plan their hunt from there, being sure not to run their dogs towards property they don't have permission on. The odd time if they miss a dog on the road they have gone and asked permission to just retrieve the dog. I'm just outside Almonte and Carleton Place and a few weeks ago they actually got a wolf just over a mile from here.
These guys do it the right way and are respectful of properties, unlike it seems the lads that you have in your area benjhind.

Cheers

Yep, you would almost need permission from a whole concession or 2 of landowners to be perfectly legit but I get the fact even if you have permission from most landowners no one can predict where the chase will go. And once the chase is on its hard to go and start asking permission. Tough situation for sure, the hounds man that run deer up north have the same problems .

So if a landowner is a licensed trapper and has lawful traps on his property, or a licensed trapper had written permission from a land owner to set lawful traps for coyotes, and someone lets their dogs loose to hunt coyotes on these properties without permission, and the dogs get cuaght in the traps who would be at fault?........ I trap, and I own property, and I know the answer .....I don't like trespassers messing with my trap line when they are running dogs through my bush.
just something to consider when running dogs on private property without permission. I rely on my legally set traps for income.......

Skull1 you raise a very valid point. If you care about your dogs you should know whether there are traps set on land where you run them. Here in the very deep south, trappers are extremely cognizant of stray and even trespassing dogs. Bucket sets are rare, with most lethal sets either under water or up a pole. Personally I'm of the opinion that it isn't the dog's fault that the owner is an idiot, but I don't rely on fur for my income and don't want to judge.

The landowners in my block who don't allow trapping are farmers who live off their land. These aren't PETA folks from the city, they are hard-working people who choose not to allow hunting on their land. In my opinion, if you want to use dogs and you don't have permission from EVERY landowner between the roads, your only option is a leash.

Ya not a good thing. I have a landowner that hates those guys as they constantly run his bush and neighbours bush without permission....plus............it makes calling coyotes there tough on for me :)

15 years of running hounds we only had one problem,,,,,,,,he was growing cash crops

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Originally Posted by COYHUNTER

15 years of running hounds we only had one problem,,,,,,,,he was growing cash crops

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Do you ask permission?

he didnt want us to see his crops??????get it
we have had runs 23 miles,,,,,,,,,,,,you cant tell where the dogs go......

Lots of unfenced property up here, grain fields for miles. Yet it is all private and you need permission. Easy enough to get if you ask, but for those that do not. It is simply trespassing and illegal hunting. A call to the cops can insure their practice will stop soon enough. I have no tolerance for trespassers


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Where I used to live it was quietly becoming an issue, along with disregard for local firearms by-laws (some municipalities didn't allow rifles). Then the antis caught wind of it and fanned the flames. Anytime a local Council was considering a hunting related matter that was important to all hunters (e.g. Sunday gun hunting, amendments to firearms by-laws), the meetings were always dominated by arguments between coyote hunters and coyote huggers.

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Originally Posted by COYHUNTER

he didnt want us to see his crops??????get it
we have had runs 23 miles,,,,,,,,,,,,you cant tell where the dogs go......

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You still have to ask before you go on and work to keep the dogs off the places you do not have permission.

We used to have guys run their dogs "accidentally" right behind our camp, we are dog people but we know they did it on purpose.

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Originally Posted by COYHUNTER

15 years of running hounds we only had one problem,,,,,,,,he was growing cash crops

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Funny you mention it....I've spent 15 years looking for a dog with cash crop bloodlines:)

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Originally Posted by LiveBates

Funny you mention it....I've spent 15 years looking for a dog with cash crop bloodlines:)

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Tee hee hee :):):):)

I've been out hunting with a group that had dog running the yotes. i didn't stay long they just drove around looking for fresh tracks. put the dogs on them and didn't seem to care about permission. They sat in there trucks with the radios going waiting to see where to cut them off. Im sure other groups are not like that! i left pretty fast.
I do feel pretty bad for the guys with dogs. 25 years ago we didn't have tree huggers buying up farms and it was just the way things went on back then.

I've got lots of experience with running hounds on yotes and landowner issues.
We run the same areas every year and do run into Issues.
Our gang sits in set spots in bush and we have spotters in trucks with dog boxes to follow hounds and protect the hounds on road crossings.
There's no way to predict which way a coyote will run and they do get on property we don't have permission.If they get on those properties we either let them run through and catch them on next road or knock on doors and explain situation and ask to just catch dogs.
Most people are very understanding and allow us to catch dogs.
Being respectful and polite goes along wayour.

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Originally Posted by fuel80guy

I've got lots of experience with running hounds on yotes and landowner issues.
We run the same areas every year and do run into Issues.
Our gang sits in set spots in bush and we have spotters in trucks with dog boxes to follow hounds and protect the hounds on road crossings.
There's no way to predict which way a coyote will run and they do get on property we don't have permission.If they get on those properties we either let them run through and catch them on next road or knock on doors and explain situation and ask to just catch dogs.
Most people are very understanding and allow us to catch dogs.
Being respectful and polite goes along wayour.

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I know of a few people who would fly into a barnyard, jump out of the truck and unload at a running yote without even knowing who the farmer is.

That is one of the reasons why people are shutting down their property to hunters.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I know of a few people who would fly into a barnyard, jump out of the truck and unload at a running yote without even knowing who the farmer is.

That is one of the reasons why people are shutting down their property to hunters.

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Man,that's crap and no excuse for it. Pulling that these days would land a bunch in a pile of really hot water.

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Originally Posted by Road

I've been out hunting with a group that had dog running the yotes. i didn't stay long they just drove around looking for fresh tracks. put the dogs on them and didn't seem to care about permission. They sat in there trucks with the radios going waiting to see where to cut them off. Im sure other groups are not like that! i left pretty fast.
I do feel pretty bad for the guys with dogs. 25 years ago we didn't have tree huggers buying up farms and it was just the way things went on back then.

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But there are much more than tree huggers that don't want hounds crossing their land, some fellow hunters too, and this is the scary part... As a land owner I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by COYHUNTER

he didnt want us to see his crops??????get it
we have had runs 23 miles,,,,,,,,,,,,you cant tell where the dogs go......

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I get that the hounds will follow wherever the chase leads them, but I should hope the shooting happens only on land you have permission on.

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Originally Posted by COYHUNTER

he didnt want us to see his crops??????get it
we have had runs 23 miles,,,,,,,,,,,,you cant tell where the dogs go......

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This is exactly my point. If I push a bush, and the deer runs around the blockers into a bush where I don't have permission, I go home. If your hobby requires you to break the law and make the rest of us look bad, you should get a different hobby.

First thy come for the coyote dogs that's okay because you don't like it.next thy come for your upland bird dogs. That's okay because you don't hunt thet way.but when thy come for your duck dogs or your deer drives. you will be screaming for help. Are hunting traditions are disappearing. We need to stick together.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

First thy come for the coyote dogs that's okay because you don't like it.next thy come for your upland bird dogs. That's okay because you don't hunt thet way.but when thy come for your duck dogs or your deer drives. you will be screaming for help. Are hunting traditions are disappearing. We need to stick together.

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Don't think anyone is against running yotes with hounds. Think the point is don't let your self interest supersede that of the one paying taxes on the property.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

First thy come for the coyote dogs that's okay because you don't like it.next thy come for your upland bird dogs. That's okay because you don't hunt thet way.but when thy come for your duck dogs or your deer drives. you will be screaming for help. Are hunting traditions are disappearing. We need to stick together.

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Condoning lawbreaking is not the brightest move we can make. Trespassing on private property by dogs running game is just as bad as hunters wandering wherever they feel like. Claiming "dogs don't read signs" is just dumb. If any conduct will cause the loss of the use of dogs for hunting,this is it.

Sometimes things just don't work as they should whether you are running dogs, hunting private property with permission or just don't like a certain type of hunting. We push yotes also known as man dogging on here. We have permission to hunt many farms, yesterday we where asked to leave a property by the wife which we did. Last week the husband told us to have fun hunting there, this is three times since the new year the husband has seen us there and talked to us plus he hunts with one of our guys. I guess it depends who wears the pants in the house?

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

First thy come for the coyote dogs that's okay because you don't like it.next thy come for your upland bird dogs. That's okay because you don't hunt thet way.but when thy come for your duck dogs or your deer drives. you will be screaming for help. Are hunting traditions are disappearing. We need to stick together.

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Not when those engaged in unlawful activities are tarnishing the image of the broader hunting community. Misfires are rare for you Dutch, but this is one.

If they are on property without permission record the plate numbers,obtain photos and call the MNR. There are many charges that could be laid including trespass to hunt, trespass where signs visible or fence lines ,agricultural field crossed.Discharge from highway.Loaded firearm in vehicle.
Unlicensed dogs.

To me it all goes back to common courtesy if you did not make the effort to obtain permission let the chips fall where they may.

You can ramp up the situation by seeking a restriction on the use of dogs in that WMU.

Written permission from each and every land owner with a contact number on it updated yearly by the landowners should be sufficient.

This would save the MNR lads time and effort.

Now with all that being said these coyote hunters do provide a service for farmers and landowners and I think they should be appreciated for that.If you own land and like to hunt small game or deer I think it would be wise to allow them onto the land.

If I owned a single lot in a large area where permission has been obtained from all the other properties I would want to keep my neighbors happy especially if they raise livestock, why be a spoiler when you do not have to be.Its all about compromise and attitude, if the hunters gave me attitude there would not be any compromise.

A friend of mine is just finishing off his new house getting ready to move in this weekend. He is building the house on 125 acres of farmland located in Amaranth (west of Orangeville). He was out between the house and the barn yesterday to watch a three men get out of a truck and release dogs into his field. The men then proceeded to follow the dogs going west behind the barn. At this point they met my friend (he is an avid hunter) to begin answering why they thought they could simply release dogs and trespass on his property. Apparently the weak response was "I know your father".
Sometimes stupid knows no limit.

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

A friend of mine is just finishing off his new house getting ready to move in this weekend. He is building the house on 125 acres of farmland located in Amaranth (west of Orangeville). He was out between the house and the barn yesterday to watch a three men get out of a truck and release dogs into his field. The men then proceeded to follow the dogs going west behind the barn. At this point they met my friend (he is an avid hunter) to begin answering why they thought they could simply release dogs and trespass on his property. Apparently the weak response was "I know your father".
Sometimes stupid knows no limit.

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You pull that crap in some parts of the province and they will just shoot your dogs, problem solved.

We had a guy tell us they knew the owners and had permission, the problem was that it was owned by my family and they did not even know the last name.

It is BS like this that is causing permission to dry up, don't blame city people moving to the country, blame idiots for ruining it for the honest people.

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

A friend of mine is just finishing off his new house getting ready to move in this weekend. He is building the house on 125 acres of farmland located in Amaranth (west of Orangeville). He was out between the house and the barn yesterday to watch a three men get out of a truck and release dogs into his field. The men then proceeded to follow the dogs going west behind the barn. At this point they met my friend (he is an avid hunter) to begin answering why they thought they could simply release dogs and trespass on his property. Apparently the weak response was "I know your father".
Sometimes stupid knows no limit.

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That's about all I'd need to post the property with No Trespassing signs along with other signs warning "Any Dogs running loose will be shot. No exceptions."

To be honest with you guys/gals there is NO WAY I would shoot any hunters dogs or any dogs trespassing.The only exception for me would be dogs running deer on my property out of season and only then would I call the MNR to do the shooting, not me. The poor dogs don,t know they are owned by irresponsible hunters,they are just doing what comes naturally for them, following their noses.All the bs excuses these so called hunters use can be excluded by them needing written annual permission to hunt with lot and concession number and owners telephone contact number.IMO

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

To be honest with you guys/gals there is NO WAY I would shoot any hunters dogs or any dogs trespassing.The only exception for me would be dogs running deer on my property out of season and only then would I call the MNR to do the shooting, not me. The poor dogs don,t know they are owned by irresponsible hunters,they are just doing what comes naturally for them, following their noses.All the bs excuses these so called hunters use can be excluded by them needing written annual permission to hunt with lot and concession number and owners telephone contact number.IMO

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You don't have sheep I gather.

Dogs don't know any better but their owners sure do. If the dogs keep coming around and harassing then they are open season. There are many reasons why you should give the dog a break but there are just as many if not more reasons why a loose dog running free should be dealt with, ideally by the owner leashing their dog but that is not always the case.

No I don,t have sheep and I,am pretty sure 99.9% of the folks reading this don,t have sheep.For the .1% that do have sheep I suspect that very few of them have had them attacked by dogs,maybe coyotes but not dogs.

"If dogs keep coming around and harassing then they are open season"

Interesting that you invent a situation that fits with your solution, nobody on this thread is talking about dogs harassing livestock,that is why its posted running coyotes and trespassing.

So now the question you have opened up is " would you shot a dog simply because its running free OR does it have to be running free and attacking sheep?Your post leaves that as a open question.

I would suggest to you that a "loose dog running free" would be a call for a bye law officer to look into.If you are proposing shooting a dog yourself when the dog is simply running free and not a imminent threat to livestock you might need the services of a good lawyer.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

No I don,t have sheep and I,am pretty sure 99.9% of the folks reading this don,t have sheep.For the .1% that do have sheep I suspect that very few of them have had them attacked by dogs,maybe coyotes but not dogs.

"If dogs keep coming around and harassing then they are open season"



Interesting that you invent a situation that fits with your solution, nobody on this thread is talking about dogs harassing livestock,that is why its posted running coyotes and trespassing.

So now the question you have opened up is " would you shot a dog simply because its running free OR does it have to be running free and attacking sheep?Your post leaves that as a open question.

I would suggest to you that a "loose dog running free" would be a call for a bye law officer to look into.If you are proposing shooting a dog yourself when the dog is simply running free and not a imminent threat to livestock you might need the services of a good lawyer.

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Good advice Gilroy, hope this advice is heeded.

This thread is not about dogs harassing livestock.

My comments are not to defend the actions of those who would allow their dogs to roam freely but to remind folks that there are processes to follow.

Without due grounds which can be proven without a doubt....I'll have a field day with you in court and it will cost you....dearly.

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

A friend of mine is just finishing off his new house getting ready to move in this weekend. He is building the house on 125 acres of farmland located in Amaranth (west of Orangeville). He was out between the house and the barn yesterday to watch a three men get out of a truck and release dogs into his field. The men then proceeded to follow the dogs going west behind the barn. At this point they met my friend (he is an avid hunter) to begin answering why they thought they could simply release dogs and trespass on his property. Apparently the weak response was "I know your father".
Sometimes stupid knows no limit.

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Did he know his father or is he new to the area?

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Originally Posted by Camoman

Did he know his father or is he new to the area?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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I was being kind, my friend's father had run them off his land as well. As per my original statement... can't fix stupid!

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Trimmer21 I would like to see one of you big talkers shoot one of my hounds. You realize its a big deal if you shoot someones dog you will have so many charges laid on you. And when I'm done talking you to court you will be living in a cardboard box. All you guys talk a big game when it comes to shooting someones hound but you would never do it. its easy to hide behind a computer and talk tough. lol

BC what would you recommend to correct the problem? How many chances 1-2...?

Are you saying you have the right to release your dogs on private land and let them run?

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Originally Posted by bodycount

Trimmer21 I would like to see one of you big talkers shoot one of my hounds. You realize its a big deal if you shoot someones dog you will have so many charges laid on you. And when I'm done talking you to court you will be living in a cardboard box. All you guys talk a big game when it comes to shooting someones hound but you would never do it. its easy to hide behind a computer and talk tough. lol

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Originally Posted by bodycount

Trimmer21 I would like to see one of you big talkers shoot one of my hounds. You realize its a big deal if you shoot someones dog you will have so many charges laid on you. And when I'm done talking you to court you will be living in a cardboard box. All you guys talk a big game when it comes to shooting someones hound but you would never do it. its easy to hide behind a computer and talk tough. lol

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Commentary on what's wrong with our country. The person who's paying the taxes has to take a back seat to a freeloader.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Are you saying you have the right to release your dogs on private land and let them run?

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Not sure how you got that from his post but I agree anyone that shoots a dog for being on their property is asking for a lot of trouble, unless it's harassing your livestock.

I was running hounds yesturday sitting on the sideroad where we do not want dogs to cross. Had 5 different locals stop me and tell me they have had coyote problems and want us to run their land. One lady owns a 300 acre horse farm and was so glad we are out coyote hunting, told me to go on her land anytime.

If coyote crosses into property we can't hunt we wipe the track clean the best we can then stand on the track and catch the hounds. Still not the easiest thing to do, pulling a hound off a hot track makes for a very peeved off dog.

I have never released dogs on property I don't have permission but when they are on a coyote they can cross country very fast. I've had to skip roads before with the truck to cut them off. Most people are forgiving If I ask to go on their land to catch dogs, I will ask if I can bring my gun incase I see the coyote and shooting it is fastest way to end it. Helps that we have run hounds here for 30 years at least and know all the farmers.

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Originally Posted by bodycount

Trimmer21 I would like to see one of you big talkers shoot one of my hounds. You realize its a big deal if you shoot someones dog you will have so many charges laid on you. And when I'm done talking you to court you will be living in a cardboard box. All you guys talk a big game when it comes to shooting someones hound but you would never do it. its easy to hide behind a computer and talk tough. lol

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Landowners and their agents are absolutely within their rights to shoot dogs in protection of livestock,property or people when they're found running on private property. They may also sue dog owners for all damages caused at the same time dealing with FWCAct charges for "trespassing to hunt" when using hounds that are running on private property and any and all applicable municipal by-laws. You won't be laying charges against anyone,there,Mr.Tough Guy. You'll be dealing with enough of your own.

Sadly, one of the core issues is that in Canada we really don't have property rights and protecting your property rights is a quick way to end up in court facing charges. It is a sad state reality. In the post I made within this thread, that instance was a blatant act by some very arrogant hunters. It is likely they have the same attitude that has been shared within this thread, that is, "If you shoot my dog I'll take you to court."
As much as those hunters that trespassed likely deserve to lose their dogs, I don't condone shooting a dog unless absolutely necessary. The fix is to make the fines more hefty for those who don't respect other people's property and for those of us who are responsible to condemn that behavior whenever we encounter it.

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

Sadly, one of the core issues is that in Canada we really don't have property rights and protecting your property rights is a quick way to end up in court facing charges.

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Constitutional property rights and protection of property,under the law,are deemed two separate and distinct issues. While it may be illegal to shoot at simple trespassers in "protection of property",it's certainly not illegal to shoot at dogs when trespasser's animals are causing damage or presenting safety issues towards people and livestock.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Constitutional property rights and protection of property,under the law,are deemed two separate and distinct issues. While it may be illegal to shoot at simple trespassers in "protection of property",it's certainly not illegal to shoot at dogs when trespasser's animals are causing damage or presenting safety issues towards people and livestock.

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The trouble is, that if a farmer was to shoot a dog legally he is likely going to end up in court. He may well be found not guilty, but not before he has been punished financially by the system.

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

The trouble is, that if a farmer was to shoot a dog legally he is likely going to end up in court. He may well be found not guilty, but not before he has been punished financially by the system.

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I suppose anything could happen,but,in all the years I dealt with trespassing hunters and farmers shooting dogs that were harassing livestock,I didn't see one charge laid against the farmer,ever,but,I sure wrote a pile against trespassers. A dog owner may be able to sue in Small Claims Court for the value of the dog,but,that's really a stretch,pain and suffering will never happen (unless they go to Judge Judy) LOL

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Constitutional property rights and protection of property,under the law,are deemed two separate and distinct issues. While it may be illegal to shoot at simple trespassers in "protection of property",it's certainly not illegal to shoot at dogs when trespasser's animals are causing damage or presenting safety issues towards people and livestock.

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Tell me how a dog or dogs, are causing damage or presenting safety issues when they are on the trail/scent of a coyote., they only have one thing on their minds and that is catching up with the coyote.
A number of years ago around our way , a farmer was charged and convicted and fined heavily for shooting two hounds that were running coyotes across his property .
He did this while he was sitting in his tree stand Bow hunting deer, he also had his shotgun handy as he admitted that there was a possibility that the hounds would be around , as he had heard and seen them before, and didn't know who they belonged to.

A farmer has to have absolute proof that dogs are damaging his property or livestock, the MNRF or a Bylaw Enforcement Officer who is familiar with this type of incident is usually called out to investigate and submit their findings to the Township or the Police before charges can be laid.

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Originally Posted by SongDog

Had 5 different locals stop me and tell me they have had coyote problems and want us to run their land. One lady owns a 300 acre horse farm and was so glad we are out coyote hunting, told me to go on her land anytime.

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That's what it's like here too, no one complains and most are grateful for the help in keeping the yote population down. Even if they themselves don't fully agree, they know from their friends with livestock (horses) that it's a necessary evil.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I suppose anything could happen,but,in all the years I dealt with trespassing hunters and farmers shooting dogs that were harassing livestock,I didn't see one charge laid against the farmer,ever,but,I sure wrote a pile against trespassers.

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A fella at the hunt camp told us this story, he runs the hounds for deer season (also yote in the winter). One idiot called the CO on him after the dog chased a deer across his property while he was hunting ...ruined his hunt he was quoted as telling the CO....go figure.

Anyway, the CO was trying to come up with something but couldn't lay a charge, the dogs were licensed and had GPS collar tracking collars on and they had mapping s/w. So they were able to convince the CO that the dogs were under control. Worked.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I suppose anything could happen,but,in all the years I dealt with trespassing hunters and farmers shooting dogs that were harassing livestock,I didn't see one charge laid against the farmer,ever,but,I sure wrote a pile against trespassers. A dog owner may be able to sue in Small Claims Court for the value of the dog,but,that's really a stretch,pain and suffering will never happen (unless they go to Judge Judy) LOL

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Just so we're clear my comments are not to support individuals being careless with their dogs nor hunting without permission.

There are numerous judgements rendered to cover the cost of dogs shot without due cause. You can research these, several come to mind....Bancroft where a farmer shot 2 hounds he claimed were running deer out of season. He was charged and costs plus an ascertained value of $1700 per hound levied.
You may wish to read the ACT and read carefully. The responsibility is clearly on the individual to prove livestock was in need of protection. Shooting a dog just crossing your property will cause you grief. You may tell us that it was most often 'the hunter' who was charged but there are numerous convictions on file for illegally shooting a dog. What costs are retrieved depends on the owner and how much they wish to pursue this. Many dogs are currently running with expensive collars thereby adding to the value at stake here.

Too bad this kind of situation was the exception and hopefully most coyote hunters have secured the required permission and all is well.
If you are unable to prove your livestock or your person was in immediate danger you're likely going to lose this argument. Kind of like shooting and intruder walking down your driveway after he broke into your house. We all know why you would like to but in a situation like this your claim of personal protection is a lost cause.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bodycount

Trimmer21 I would like to see one of you big talkers shoot one of my hounds. You realize its a big deal if you shoot someones dog you will have so many charges laid on you. And when I'm done talking you to court you will be living in a cardboard box. All you guys talk a big game when it comes to shooting someones hound but you would never do it. its easy to hide behind a computer and talk tough. lol

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Says the guy threatening legal action over things that haven't happened & uses the handle "body count"..........

I can break the law ( dog owner who lets his dog run) but if you dare break the law ( landowner that shoots a dog) your the problem.....and I will see you in court. And beat you up?


lol

And People wonder why landowners who arent against hunting are closing doors.
We humans, so strange at times.

Bottom line imo.
If some landowner ever shoots someone's dog ( your dog).
Man up, "no ones fault" but your own...take responsibility for your decision and actions...

I might get really upset, know I would. But blame the landowner? Seriously?And worse sue them for my decision, my mistake, the risk I took?

what a world we live in

So if I understand this correctly if you have a hunting dog that trespasses you can trespass with it no permission needed for hunting.

All this talk about prosecuting a land owner for shooting trespassing dogs brings up another question for me. First off, you would have to prove he was actually the person who shot it in the first place. It's not like he's about to come out and admit it or allow anyone to come on his property to confirm that either. Even if the dog has a radio collar anyone with half a brain would be sure to remove it and either take the battery out or destroy it so there is no signal to follow. Pretty hard to charge someone without enough evidence.
One more thing. I may be wrong but in the past at least I thought it was legal to shoot dogs running deer on your property. So all a landowner would have to say is that the dog was running deer.

Cheers

Sorry Smitty you are wrong...that's up to a CO. Never has been legal.

JB two wrongs never made a right, you've always pointed that out before

No ones trying to point a finger at the farmer but laws are quite clear about this. Go after the owner of the dog...legally.

GW, you're a lot brighter than to make the analogy of trespass by the hunter is ok cause his dog did....we all know that doesn't wash.

No argument Krakadawn, none. They never have and never will. Id still blame myself even if I thought the landowner was out of line. I took the risk, I put my dog in that situation to begin with

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smitty55

All this talk about prosecuting a land owner for shooting trespassing dogs brings up another question for me. First off, you would have to prove he was actually the person who shot it in the first place. It's not like he's about to come out and admit it or allow anyone to come on his property to confirm that either. Even if the dog has a radio collar anyone with half a brain would be sure to remove it and either take the battery out or destroy it so there is no signal to follow. Pretty hard to charge someone without enough evidence.
One more thing. I may be wrong but in the past at least I thought it was legal to shoot dogs running deer on your property. So all a landowner would have to say is that the dog was running deer.

Cheers

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When using GPS. type collars, the signal ends at where the collar was destroyed or battery taken out. You can see this on the receiver and easily determine on what or whose property it happened. The maps on the receivers are a great thing.

This happened to us a number of years ago, one land owner caught my dogs, two of them, removed the collars and the batteries from them , and destroyed the collars, took the dogs to his place.
We tracked the dogs to the last place there was a signal and saw from foot prints in the snow and determined what happened.
We went to the landowner and talked to him and he denied everything, we then called the police and went with them to his place and with us there the police confronted him with our evidence.He at first denied everything , but when the police told him he would be charged with theft , two collars and two dogs, he admitted everything. he gave us the two dogs right then and there, they were in his garage, but said that he destroyed the collars. After some very heated arguments about the price of the collars and having to pay shipping from the U.S., he wrote us out a check and apologized for his actions.His biggest reason for not wanting the dogs on his property was , "that the dogs were peeing on his evergreens " he was told that he should perhaps put up a coyote proof fence as they will also pee on his trees when marking out their territory.

I was really happy to get my two dogs back safely, but then about three weeks later, someone had stolen my youngest dog, took off the collar and left it at the side of the road, again tracks in the snow told the story.
I finally found out where my dog wound up, after about 8 years , a fellow showed up at my buddies place and showed him a picture of their best dog that they had, it was killed on the road. My buddy immediately recognized the dog as being mine, and asked how this fellow got the dog. He said he bought it 8 years ago from a guy who my buddy knew, [a shady type that lived in our area] but nothing could be done as this "thief " had left the country , moved to the U.S.

I don't get all this talk about shooting hounds. Trying to justify it by implying that hounds hot on a trail are attacking livestock shows you know nothing about hounds. The dogs have no interest in anything but the coyote. Blaming a dog that is trained to hunt is ridiculous. Yes by all means go after the owners if they are knowingly trespassing but killing the dog isn't going to accomplish anything positive. All that will happen is the lawyers will get to upgrade thier BMW's. How anybody could shoot a dog for running a coyote is beyond me. Now if some dog did come on your property and actually attacked livestock or your pets that is a very different situation but not what this thread is about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

I don't get all this talk about shooting hounds. Trying to justify it by implying that hounds hot on a trail are attacking livestock shows you know nothing about hounds. The dogs have no interest in anything but the coyote. Blaming a dog that is trained to hunt is ridiculous. Yes by all means go after the owners if they are knowingly trespassing but killing the dog isn't going to accomplish anything positive. All that will happen is the lawyers will get to upgrade thier BMW's. How anybody could shoot a dog for running a coyote is beyond me. Now if some dog did come on your property and actually attacked livestock or your pets that is a very different situation but not what this thread is about.

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What Jaycee says about the collars - true - it wouldn't be hard to figure out what happened to the dog if its wearing a GPS collar.

Both the shooting of dogs (outside of protecting poultry and livestock) and the theft or destruction of collars are illegal activities. Why is this discussion even being permitted here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smitty55

All this talk about prosecuting a land owner for shooting trespassing dogs brings up another question for me. First off, you would have to prove he was actually the person who shot it in the first place. It's not like he's about to come out and admit it or allow anyone to come on his property to confirm that either. Even if the dog has a radio collar anyone with half a brain would be sure to remove it and either take the battery out or destroy it so there is no signal to follow. Pretty hard to charge someone without enough evidence.
One more thing. I may be wrong but in the past at least I thought it was legal to shoot dogs running deer on your property. So all a landowner would have to say is that the dog was running deer.

Cheers

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Shooting dogs on your property is only permitted in defense of poultry and livestock.
Dogs running deer may only be shot by a CO - and CO's are very, very hesitant to do this in the event that it is someone's pet.
A story about a CO officer shooting someone's pet is not something the MNR wants to see in the news.

A houndsman with a gps tracker that shows a hounds trail ending on your property is all that is needed to make your life very, very difficult.
And if there is any suspicion that you used a firearm to shoot the dog, you will be dealing with police as well as the CO.
Also, you can lie to cops, but not to a CO - that in itself is an offence.
I know one individual that lied to a CO, and the initial offence being investigated was dropped, but they spent another 18 months pursuing a "lying to a CO" charge on which he was eventually convicted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Just so we're clear my comments are not to support individuals being careless with their dogs nor hunting without permission.

There are numerous judgements rendered to cover the cost of dogs shot without due cause. You can research these, several come to mind....Bancroft where a farmer shot 2 hounds he claimed were running deer out of season. He was charged and costs plus an ascertained value of $1700 per hound levied.
You may wish to read the ACT and read carefully. The responsibility is clearly on the individual to prove livestock was in need of protection. Shooting a dog just crossing your property will cause you grief. You may tell us that it was most often 'the hunter' who was charged but there are numerous convictions on file for illegally shooting a dog. What costs are retrieved depends on the owner and how much they wish to pursue this. Many dogs are currently running with expensive collars thereby adding to the value at stake here.

Too bad this kind of situation was the exception and hopefully most coyote hunters have secured the required permission and all is well.
If you are unable to prove your livestock or your person was in immediate danger you're likely going to lose this argument. Kind of like shooting and intruder walking down your driveway after he broke into your house. We all know why you would like to but in a situation like this your claim of personal protection is a lost cause.

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OK,which "ACT" are you referring to? No one,anywhere,posted that dogs could be shot just for shytes and giggles. Of course,evidence must be presented,but,that's quite easy with today's technology. A few pictures of damage or injury or at best,video evidence is a slam-dunk in Court. I'd be seizing the dog's collars,too,especially if they were GPS units,as proof where the dogs were. Back when,all we needed to know was who owned the dog and it was a guaranteed ticket. Today,I'm willing to bet it would be a hell of a lot more expensive than it was then, if the dog owner was held responsible for damages to livestock or produce.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

OK,which "ACT" are you referring to? No one,anywhere,posted that dogs could be shot just for shytes and giggles. Of course,evidence must be presented,but,that's quite easy with today's technology. A few pictures of damage or injury or at best,video evidence is a slam-dunk in Court. I'd be seizing the dog's collars,too,especially if they were GPS units,as proof where the dogs were. Back when,all we needed to know was who owned the dog and it was a guaranteed ticket. Today,I'm willing to bet it would be a hell of a lot more expensive than it was then, if the dog owner was held responsible for damages to livestock or produce.

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The act is the protection of livestock and poultry act.
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90l24

It is the municipality, not the dog owner, that is liable when dogs kill livestock or poultry. It is up to the municipality to recover those costs from the dog owner in civil court. There is no protection for the protection of produce or crops that I am aware of.

How often does this occur?

im thinking its uncommon to rare. As krakadawn said, 2 wrongs will never make a right.
If someone's dogs were running lose on my property, I'd detain the dogs. Fill my truck with pig poop. When the hunter arrived, we'd talk. Come to an agreement, which involves getting his address and following him home... And once having dumped a ton of manure in his driveway, "how's it feel"...And if it conintues the next time Im letting my cows/pigs loose in your back yard...

if it repeats I'm going to try to let Leo handle it.

if they harass my livestock, I'm going to try to stop it. And if I can't then yes, I can see myself shooting it/them and too damn bad.

if you love your dogs that much, um.....did you ask your dog if it was ok to put it at it risk??? And it really is no-ones fault but your own. You took the risk, You set it loose, you made the decisions that cost your dog its life...good job.
What you aren't aware dogs.......
please

And also think the more important and more realistic concern/falliut

No wonder landowners are turning hunters away....
Its always the few that ruin it for the many.

Sounds like a lot of hate on this forum against houndsmen and all this talk of shooting hunting dogs is pretty sick IMO.

I guess you guys think hounds should only be run in fenced in operations or not used at all. Since there is always a risk the animal is going to go where we don't want it to and the hounds will follow. This is a problem with running any game from rabbits to bears.

Guess it's different where I live, deer and small gamehunters welcome us, between the 4 hound gangs in this county last winter, over 175 coyotes killed that I know about. Imagine how many deer that saved.

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Whats your address Songdog. Im sure you won't mind me invading your property without your permission.

Do unto others....

Do agree that "yes" it's a bit much, but perhaps it's important to ask yourself why that "hate" exist in the first place.
Im guessing its because way tooooooooooooooo many people out there, don't respect other people, or their property, their privacy.....

Not sure what your problem is, or why you think every houndsmen just goes where they want trespassing.

Like I said in previous posts, I have never released dogs where I don't have permission and have never tresspassed. We have the entire concession to hunt where my dad, uncles and the other hound owners farm.

So why you would want my address to come trespass on my property is just a ignorant comment, lumping everyone in the same boat.....kinda like a anti hunter does

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If I was the landowner I would capture the hound if possible and take it home, tie it up with a bowl of water and wait for the owner to track it down to me. The dog would be well cared for and the owner dealt with through legal channels. I find it ironic that people who will give a pit bull a pass and blame the owners want to shoot a hound for chasing a coyote across a farm field?

I don't know how often these topics come up.

So many landowners revoking the privalage for snow mobile trails and more..
So many landowners turning deer/turkey hunters away.....
I have zero doubt that if someday someone steals one of your game cameras, the "invasion" ( and theft) of your property......

But hey its all different (somehow magically) once it becomes "mans best friend", that makes it all ok, especially if its mine

Leave it to jBen to edit his post after someone responds to it, not sure why you always do that?

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You guys are over thinking this too much. A few years back I caught a hound chasing a fawn in the spring. Apparently the dog had escaped its enclosure but was known to roam on occasion. Although I suspected who the owner was I did not bother to get into a confrontation. I simply called the bylaw officer who picked up the hound and the owner had to pay a fee to retrieve the dog. It never happened again.
Sometimes all it takes is a financial debit of the wallet to make people understand.

As I said Impact. if it was me, Id "detain" it. We'd have a "chat"....done. If it continued, well how about it "hunter", you ok with me coming into your backyard unannounced and without permission??? Thought not, so why do "you" do it.....

Knowing a couple landowners who have simply had it, because it occurs over and over and over and over....And don't let anyone, anymore......

So why you would want my address to come trespass on my property is just a ignorant comment

Funny that Sondog, thanks for making my point and that would be the discussion I have with the dog owners.

The first time


The discussion is about guys that let their dogs run, without permission. Not when you have permission (which I assumed you do and the people that let you)..

It's a bad habit,
Not as bad as not respecting other people, landowners who have to put up with it all the time and more and more of the time.
Obviously, you don't like the idea of someone coming into your back yard. Its just how did you say it "ignorant"...
Guess the difference is, for a landowner to "do it to you" they would first have to know where you live.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SongDog

Guess it's different where I live, deer and small gamehunters welcome us, between the 4 hound gangs in this county last winter, over 175 coyotes killed that I know about. Imagine how many deer that saved.

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Ditto here Song Dog, I know the lads from two different groups that run Coyotes in this area, which includes my 100 acres. Most neighbours are very receptive to the activity, even the transplanted snowflakes from the city that don't like being awaken by a yote howling in the back yard at 1:00 am and want them gone:)

I often find wayward dogs in my yard and they get the royal treatment until the trackers come to get them. We have a nice chat, get a nice handshake for taking care of their dogs and off they go. If I recognize the name on the collar I'll take the dog over and catch up on the news from their camp. Nice to get to know the local lads. Who would even consider 'having words' about trespassing to them ?

A lot of posts on this thread seem to be from ill informed urban dwellers who have a hang up about trespassing on their 1/4 acre. They don't seem to have any exposure to this way of life in a rural community setting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Ditto here Song Dog, I know the lads from two different groups that run Coyotes in this area, which includes my 100 acres. Most neighbours are very receptive to the activity, even the transplanted snowflakes from the city that don't like being awaken by a yote howling in the back yard at 1:00 am and want them gone:)

I often find wayward dogs in my yard and they get the royal treatment until the trackers come to get them. We have a nice chat, get a nice handshake for taking care of their dogs and off they go. If I recognize the name on the collar I'll take the dog over and catch up on the news from their camp. Nice to get to know the local lads. Who would even consider 'having words' about trespassing to them ?

A lot of posts on this thread seem to be from ill informed urban dwellers who have a hang up about trespassing on their 1/4 acre. They don't seem to have any exposure to this way of life in a rural community setting.

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WRONG......

City dwellers that I know own into the hundreds of acres, one guy has 500, another 1200 and I have a mere 200. What we get sick of is all the BS macho crap that because were LOCAL guys we can do FTW we want. Along with all the usual well tested and idle excuses, I KNOW THE OWNER, WE USED TO OWN THIS FOR THE LAST 100, YEARS, WE HAVE BEEN HUNTING THIS FOR EVER,WE WILL KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR PLACE, WITH AN ATTITUDE LIKE THAT BETTER WATCH YOU DON,T GET YOUR BARN BURNED DOWN.

So Mike take your condescending attitude and shove it.Before you go down the road that I don,t know country folks I do hunt with them and the respect has to go both ways.What you want to do on your place is your business what we want to do on our place is our business.Seem reasonable to you?

P.S. My avatar just told me he don,t like trespassing hounds.

Lol Mike you still enjoy making weak uniformed insults from the safety of behind your computer.About people you don't know.

Hmmm, the OP is a property owner, not an Urban Snowflake as you like, clearly fed up ( not unlike many other landowners). This is hardly the first thread on this specific topic, nor hardly the first thread (not even remotely) on the very clearly growing problem for any one capable of pausing long enough to see ( or past their cataract eyes, hows that for tit for tat shall we)? Heck why not, "snowflake urban dwellers that are cityiots too boot. Well alot of dimwitted country bumpkins........

Landowners turning away hunters more and more. You do know don't you that "antis" are a minority....the vast majority are in the middle, ok with hunting....Do the math...Its rudimentary. Its not the few "Antis" turing more and more guys away.......

Landowners refusing to allow people to use property for snowmobile trails...More and more..

Pretty hilarious really, for a thread about "respect" and why landowners (more and more of them) are getting fed up.
"I would imagieg this is uncommon to rare"
"Its the few that ruin it for the many"

One might have assumed anyone with an ounce of grey matter, the ability to read, or failing that, taking a second to pause, try to figure whats being said, even if someone says "whats your address"

Too funny

And Mike its your kind of attitude that causing landowners to......
Why should they put up with it.
And its not just guys running dogs in winter. ITs this that and the others all year!!!

MP, you let your true feeling slip with the,...... 'ill informed urban dwellers who have a hang up about TRESPASSING on THEIR 1/4 acre'.... comment. I highlighted the words, that matter to me. They have the final say about who and what is on THEIR property not you, or the locals who think they have more rights, because they have been there longer. Maybe if you are upset about what a neighbor allows or does not allow on his property, you should be the one to move.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

.What you want to do on your place is your business what we want to do on our place is our business.Seem reasonable to you?

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My post was directed to Song Dog, he has a grasp on the issue. The fact you don't understand, is probably why you fall outside the category of 'most' people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

MP, you let your true feeling slip with the,...... 'ill informed urban dwellers who have a hang up about TRESPASSING on THEIR 1/4 acre'.... comment.

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I didn't let it slip....folks who live in the urban environment have far more angst over their property line and trespassing than rural folks..common knowledge. The mere fact that the city has to have arbitrators on staff to resolve disputes over 3" of yard between neighbours to put a fence borders on the sublime.

Just because you can't grasp the concept that 'most' rural folk don't have an issue with hunters running hounds across their property is probably because you live in a congested environment where tall fences make good neighbours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Both the shooting of dogs (outside of protecting poultry and livestock) and the theft or destruction of collars are illegal activities. Why is this discussion even being permitted here?

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An excellent question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Also, you can lie to cops, but not to a CO - that in itself is an offence.

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A number of offences can apply to lying to a cop. In particular, making a false statement to police is an offence, based on the assumption that statements will be used in court proceedings. Also, making false claims in an attempt to get charges laid or to prompt an investigation is an offence.

It never ceases to amaze me that people (not you, Werner) who go on and on about personal integrity and taking responsibility suggest that lying to the cops is okay when talk turns to trespassing and trespassers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

A few pictures of damage or injury or at best,video evidence is a slam-dunk in Court.

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I'm puzzled by how we arrived at the conclusion that the presence of dogs on a property causes damage and injury and therefore justifies shooting dogs.

The circumstances under which a property owner can shoot a dog are limited. Shooting dogs simply for being on your property is illegal, unless you keep livestock on the premises. Any further discussion of shooting dogs veers quickly into the territory where we're talking about shooting dogs and then making up a story to justify it, which as Werner rightly observes, has no place here.

I don't condone people deliberately running dogs on private land without permission. But these discussions quickly get stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

I'm puzzled by how we arrived at the conclusion that the presence of dogs on a property causes damage and injury and therefore justifies shooting dogs.

The circumstances under which a property owner can shoot a dog are limited. Shooting dogs simply for being on your property is illegal, unless you keep livestock on the premises. But these discussions quickly get stupid.

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Yeah,me too.

Another secondary reason I said "I imagine this is uncommon to rare".

Around here where ten acres might cost $500,000 I sincerely doubt the vast majority of land owners turning people away from their 100 acres are Urban Snowflakes that don't like the smell of manure. In fact there are huge swaths of land between concessions its all farmland.......
/looks towards SW where the OP resides.
Figure it out.

But at the end of the day "if that happens" ( aka your dog gets shot ) no-one to blame but yourself. If the landowner has crossed the line, well LEO will figure that out to. Charged or not

Who let the dogs loose?

Trespassing/Tresspassors Welsh.
Suspect there are a lot of people who don't care about, think it's no big deal, hence lying to leo about it, no big deal either.

Either way, with the amount of crap landowners have to put up with. We see it every fall with the mount game cameras/tree stand stolen, trails being closed and so much more.

"no wonder"

I am a farmer. I am a hunter. I don't mind coyote hunters but am fed up with trespassing

[QUOTE=Ontariofarmer;1016888]I am a farmer. I am a hunter. I don't mind coyote hunters but am fed up with trespassing deer hunters. Ask permission and if it's no no means no I want to hunt my land with my kids. I bought it I own it and you don't. If you want to coyote hunt you are allowed on my land. But stop trespassing in deer season If an urbanite says no hunting and he owns the land he can say no
If you want to change your ability to hunt someone's land buy it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE


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MP, people who trespass are law breakers, pretty hard to defend them no mater how big the property involved. People value their 1/4 acre as much as you do your hundreds.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

MP, people who trespass are law breakers, pretty hard to defend them no mater how big the property involved. People value their 1/4 acre as much as you do your hundreds.

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No one has said otherwise, my comments only clarify that the most rural owners don't get bent when a Hunt Camp runs the dogs during Deer or Yote season. It's a way of life out here and MOST appreciate the efforts, especially when they are hunting predators.

Just in case some of you are not aware, Ontario Trespass laws are a little different;

Quote:

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The law, in most cases, does not take away an owner's or tenant's right to sue for trespass, but usually grants the government the authority to seek its own sanctions as a way to control this sort of behaviour.

While trespassing is usually defined as the unlawful entry onto the private land of another, it also includes performing an unlawful activity on the land and refusing to leave when told to do so.

In some provinces, such as Ontario, there is a reverse onus provision. In Ontario, a person is presumed to be trespassing if he or she is found in a private garden, field or other land under cultivation, inside lands that are fenced for livestock or cultivation and on lands where notice has been posted. It is important to note that trespass is not presumed in privately owned natural areas if it is not posted as prohibited. This point is in line with the philosophy of encouraging recreational activity on privately held lands.

Offenders may be fined, in some cases up-to several thousand dollars. There are a number of defences available to a person charged under provincial trespass legislation. If there is a fair and reasonable supposition that an accused had a right to be on the land, the person may be acquitted. There is also an implied permission to approach a door of a building unless there is a notice warning people to stay away.

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So if it's clearly fenced and in use your not permitted to enter without permission. However if you have a large track of bush land and it's not posted, it' presumed to be OK to use it. I drove around this area a few weeks back , took the concession grids roads for about 10km in east/west and 4-6km north/south south, so rough60sq/km. with a buddy looking for farms to hunt. We saw only 2 bush lots that were posted. So assumption is the rest can be used unless told otherwise.

So if you have vacant land that is not clearly in use...then hunters crossing your land are not considered trespassing unless it's been posted or they have been told to stay off.

If you're in an area largely given over to agriculture, then woodlots are assumed to be private. That's in the act.

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Completely aware of the law. If you cross ag land to get to a bush you are a trespasser if you are told to stay out or if there is a fence or it is posted you are a trespasser


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"No one has said otherwise, my comments only clarify that the most rural owners don't get bend when a Hunt Camp runs the dogs during Deer or Yote season. It's a way of life out here and MOST appreciate the efforts, especially when they are hunting predators. "

MikePal,

The ONLY rural land owner YOU can speak for is yurself. If I hunt deer over a food plot and hounds run and disturb my hunt there is one example where you would be wrong.If a farmer has given a Trapper permission to snare Coyotes that would be another reason he might not want dogs running.

If you think you will get an easy ride from a CO if you have not tried to obtain permission for hunting unposted land you might be in for a big surprise. The onus is on you to get permission and if there is no large acreages of Crown land or public land that can be seen on a map your done.

In this day of computer mapping,Crown Atlas,County GIS Mapping, the idle excuses are all pretty well taken away before you open your mouth in your defense. Just a fact of life my friend.


For Mike Pal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkuu0Lwb5EM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

The ONLY rural land owner YOU can speak for is yurself. If I hunt deer over a food plot and hounds run and disturb my hunt there is one example where you would be wrong.

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Go back and read my post #54 ....it happened..this past fall, CO's were involved and no charges were laid.

I don't know where you got they idea that I was defending trespassing Gilroy, my posts have only said; most rural people don't care that dogs hunters cross their land. If they don't care it's not 'illegal' trespassing.

You keep saying you wouldn't let them on your land, well bully for you. As I said, out here you'd be in the minority. The gangs that run the dogs not doubt have found people of your ilk where they run the dogs and do their best to avoid confrontation.

That fact is, the sport continues and their efforts are appreciated by the vast majority of the property owners and farmers despite people like you and some others on here.

Ohh....stupid, pointless video link...

Quote:

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[COLOR=#000000]Ohh....stupid, pointless video link...

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I would have used stronger words than that ! , absolutely rediculous! , I am being kind.

lol omg.

hey guys, how about we try to remember the OP described the tract, described whats going on, and it seemed pretty clear he's frustrated..............................Just like many other landowners ( Who for what their own reason).....

There might be a million reasons why one person might be ok with it, and the next landowner not. Maybe he's had bad runs in the past with hunters.......

Most dogs don't know how to read signs or red dots either. And yes AG land doesn't need to be posted. Will also say around here, where its Ag land as far as I can see, theres a lot of AG and theres a fair amount of livestock........

This image was taken on private property, ( a person who is nice enough to left a few guys hunt the 1,000 acres) in mid February.
In SW Ontario. And there were about 20 of them on the run.
Was it Coyotes? Nope!
Was it dogs. domestic dogs? Yes and was the landowner impressed?
NOT AT ALL!!

http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s/v-2/p1630423677-5.jpg

Its always the few

Forgot to add

As I type this the Yotes are singing a storm in the pastures behind us.

When we ran dogs we had permission from a lot of No Hunting land owners, but chasing yotes and only yotes when there was snow on the ground we had only a couple that said no. I agree dogs can't read and I only wish that the dog owners that walk their dogs on the sidewalk infront of my house stop using my lawn as a toilet. But I guess that's not AG land and it's not posted? :sad:

Cultivated land is to, no need to post your postage stamp ( trying to crack smiles).

wave your hand if you appreciate your neighbours cat in your back yard........

Not only is there a ton of Ag around here ( with livestock mixed in) theres a lot of Horses to.
you think you've spent a lot on a collar and dog......Image thats horses tearing across a field in winter. Or whatever.

Respect aka common courtesy, ask everyone in the parcel and if you hear no, respect that.
Done no problems at all

Sorry folks, I've been off the forum. A new baby girl in my household and I'm a very proud and busy daddy.

Here is the guy who knows what's right. Well said OntarioFarmer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ontariofarmer

I am a farmer. I am a hunter. I don't mind coyote hunters but am fed up with trespassing deer hunters. Ask permission and if it's no no means no I want to hunt my land with my kids. I bought it I own it and you don't. If you want to coyote hunt you are allowed on my land. But stop trespassing in deer season If an urbanite says no hunting and he owns the land he can say no
If you want to change your ability to hunt someone's land buy it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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MIKEPAL "Go back and read my post #54 ....it happened..this past fall, CO's were involved and no charges were laid."

R. This is only one incident and we are taking your word for it, the MNR have indicated they would lay trespass charges where dogs are involved if they become the source of complaints. The other alternative for landowners are many,including taking the dogs to a pound,calling bye law officers.......

I don't know where you got they idea that I was defending trespassing Gilroy, my posts have only said; most rural people don't care that dogs hunters cross their land. If they don't care it's not 'illegal' trespassing.

R. I did not say you were defending trespassing ANYWHERE did I? My post indicated YOU can only speak for yourself and you cannot speak for MOST rural people.

You keep saying you wouldn't let them on your land, well bully for you.

R.Again you get it wrong,where did I say this,quote a post #.



As I said, out here you'd be in the minority.

R.That would not bother me and again your talking only about your area,right?


The gangs that run the dogs not doubt have found people of your ilk where they run the dogs and do their best to avoid confrontation

R.The best way to avoid confrontation is to not run your dogs on land they have no business on.



That fact is, the sport continues and their efforts are appreciated by the vast majority of the property owners and farmers despite people like you and some others on here.

R.If you had taken the care to read my post #33 you would realize I EXPRESSED THE SAME SENTIMENT in the last two paragraphs of that post.This is what was written



"Now with all that being said these coyote hunters do provide a service for farmers and landowners and I think they should be appreciated for that.If you own land and like to hunt small game or deer I think it would be wise to allow them onto the land.

If I owned a single lot in a large area where permission has been obtained from all the other properties I would want to keep my neighbors happy especially if they raise livestock, why be a spoiler when you do not have to be.Its all about compromise and attitude, if the hunters gave me attitude there would not be any compromise."


I await your apology.

When I hunted with several others who ran hounds,we started in early October knocking on doors and calling friends for permission to run the dogs starting in January as soon as Deer-archery season ended. Because the farmers were friends and neighbors and everyone knew each other,we could run four or five concession roads and lock up half a township. It was frickin' awesome because the pelts were worth good money. We all did very well because it paid for all our hunting and then some. Livestock operators were happy as clams. Fast forward 25 years and the change in ownership and attitude is mind-boggling. Running hounds has become an almost impossible endeavor without major repercussions with new(er) landowners. A lot hunt their own property and I really respect that (of course),so,instead of hunting with hounds,I got permission from several farms and hunt them,exclusively. I sure miss the dogs,though,but,times are changing and we need to adapt.

Most Coyotes hunters I know, do so without the use of dogs. It was one reason why I was wondering if some property owners dont allow it or appreciate it. Round here, theres tons of Yotes. Yet I dont here a lot of shooting (nor dogs on the run), though know a lot of farmers appreciate it. But theres also a lot of livestock, and for that matter residential buildings being built along the concessions. My assumption is that the vast majority of the Coyote hunting taking place is by individuals, or guys without dogs. Doubt many home owners fence their back yards either. All of these preceding could be reasons why landowners prefer(?) hunters vs dogs. Dont know.

Regardless.
The OP made it very clear that no-ones asking............to find out, nor get permission.....

I maybe a urban snowflake, but even I know basic good manners and common courtesy. Whether thats asking permission to go onto someone's property or reading what's said and or implied.

And on the inevitable topic of "shooting dogs". People with livestock can "end of argument" per se.
In the end, I imagine that like having permission is up to the landowner, is up to a judge....if it goes that far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

This is only one incident and we are taking your word for it, ...

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You besmirch my honesty and you want an apology...not likely...

back in the day during the winter farmers dried up their cows and to make a bit of coin on the side and for something to do almost all of them ran hounds. time were different no one really cared who was on their land mainly because they were all neighbours.
cut to 2017. almost all the family farms are gone and their farm houses have either been sectioned off or people from the cities bought them. people are still running hounds but it is not the neighborhood farmers doing it where they knew one another. Trespassing is a whole different issue than it was 50 years ago. Houndsmen dogs are cutting across land where people don't want them and shooting from the road while years ago was nod nod wink wink is now illegal and dangerous. The optics of pickups lining the roads and guys with guns make new comers to the rural live uneasy and they phone the authorities. In todays world it is next to impossible not to break some sort of law running hounds and too bad a long rural tradition is probably going to disappear in a few years.

You all still talking about this shyte. It's simple really.? Shooting dogs is illegal unless harassing people or livestock on your property. Trespassing ( hounds or humans ) Is illegal and should be reported to the authorities so they can deal with it. I would hope that anyone that finds a wayward hound look after it until the owner or township ( pound) can take over .

The only beef had by the OP was that NO BODY ASKED if it was OK to run coyotes across his land ,and in my humble opinion ,he has a fair point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

You besmirch my honesty and you want an apology...not likely...

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LOL You have been flamed enough on this threat, I would say your toasted by now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

back in the day during the winter farmers dried up their cows and to make a bit of coin on the side and for something to do almost all of them ran hounds. time were different no one really cared who was on their land mainly because they were all neighbours.
cut to 2017. almost all the family farms are gone and their farm houses have either been sectioned off or people from the cities bought them. people are still running hounds but it is not the neighborhood farmers doing it where they knew one another. Trespassing is a whole different issue than it was 50 years ago. Houndsmen dogs are cutting across land where people don't want them and shooting from the road while years ago was nod nod wink wink is now illegal and dangerous. The optics of pickups lining the roads and guys with guns make new comers to the rural live uneasy and they phone the authorities. In todays world it is next to impossible not to break some sort of law running hounds and too bad a long rural tradition is probably going to disappear in a few years.

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I know of neighbours who tresspass on other neighbours even when they have agreements in place, deer and coyote hunting, dogs and not.

The fact that people knew each other has nothing to do with it, in the past people talked and had permission to be on other peoples property, now they do not. If you run dogs you are responsible for them, you need to do the proper thing and talk to the neighbours and ask permission. It is one thing for the dog to run on to property that you do not have permission to hunt on, it is an entirely different thing to go on that property to release the dogs or knowingly trespass, as these people have does to the original poster.

Trespassing has always been illegal and I would like to know when keeping a loaded firearm in a vehicle and discharging it from said vehicle on or across the roadway was legal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Trespassing has always been illegal and I would like to know when keeping a loaded firearm in a vehicle and discharging it from said vehicle on or across the roadway was legal.

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I don't think anyone posted about "loaded firearms in vehicles" unless I missed something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

cut to 2017. almost all the family farms are gone and their farm houses have either been sectioned off or people from the cities bought them. people are still running hounds but it is not the neighborhood farmers doing it where they knew one another. Trespassing is a whole different issue than it was 50 years ago. Houndsmen dogs are cutting across land where people don't want them and shooting from the road while years ago was nod nod wink wink is now illegal and dangerous. The optics of pickups lining the roads and guys with guns make new comers to the rural live uneasy and they phone the authorities. In todays world it is next to impossible not to break some sort of law running hounds and too bad a long rural tradition is probably going to disappear in a few years.

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That’s very true…the two hunt camps I have known for the past 20 yrs that run their dogs across the concessions where my property is located are very respectful hunters and community members. Because they have been doing so for 50+ yrs around here they know all the owners of the majority of the tracks of lands and of course they have permission to run the dogs across the property that they hunt.

But like you mention, they have also told us nowadays have to work a lot harder to get permission, if at all possible, from the new “back to nature type” property owners who are adamant that don’t want to see wild animals killed on their property. Some come around after some education on how the runs are conducted or they quickly change their minds after a pack of yotes visit them at 2:00am. It doesn't take long before they fear for their hobby farm critters and pets so they often change their mind, if ever so begrudgingly the next time the camp asks for permission.

Like the OP found, not all hunters follow the basic rules and seek permission before they hunt, just like not all the urbanites that move out to the country are ‘cidiots’.

As many have said, civil communication can usually resolve the problem.

Lol for gawds sake Mike, would you stop insulting people. People you don't know. People like the OP...( how you missed the fact you were also insulting the OP) ........people like Ontfarmer, who so eloquently put it...myself
For no other bloody reason than you lack common courtesy?

Question for you.
Were you born and raised on a farm? Maybe you were, your wife? Or did you at some point in your life decide you yourself were tired of being an "Urban Snowflake" and it was time to educate yourself?

Civil communication;
lmao, something your not capable of....

I can only speak for myself, and people I know who have come down on one side of the fence or other. My entire "street" abuts the lake to the East, and farm fields to the west. 40 years ago the "O'Reillys" ( family name/farmers) sold a piece of land they didn't farm abutting the lake. No-one has problems with hunting. They don't care at all, about the rolling thunder at 6:30 am that occurs every day once Waterfowl season opens, nor the blinds 105 yards away, nor all the hunting in the fields for geese either ( Or Turkey) . They don't care at all if guys hang their deer in plain view (as I did), they aren't phased in the slightest by the sight of guns.

Most don't care for the Yotes, or bear that occasionally enter back yards, walk down the street.

Would care if a handful of domestic dogs ended up chasing a pack of Yotes through. Would care about errant shots, their children, their own dogs.....And oddly enough no-one cares about fences, or squabbling over 6 inches of property line, once we get to know each many "freely" traverse back yards, beers hands. Though virtually everyone that owns a dog has an invisible fence ( to keep their dogs in). Who do you think will hear about it, if dogs (or Coyotes being chased) start tearing through...Oh, that's right. The O'Reillys whom have a great relationship with everyone on the street and has for 40 years............

I drive around the concessions here and the OFAH signs in front of farms, and others? Still lots of them. Yet oddly, no evidence of that I've seen or heard of dogs running Coyotes. Do hear single shots which seems to indicate some hunters hunt them,......

"Around here, we welcome these gangs"
"Who would ever have words with them, for not getting permission first"

It does sound like you condone it Mike.......

But as Ontfarmer and others have tried to politely say. It's not your call, and "if" someone doesn't want it, respect the fact thats their call. Doesn't mean they are uneducated urban snowflakes............and the fact is (at least round here) those "Urban Snowflakes" you speak of, are the vast, vast minority....

"What gives"

oh and btw Mike. My neighbour the urban snowflake, who retired from GM 15 years ago, doesn't hunt, has never hunted. Sure does love the Goose breast and Venison I've offered and given.

Hates Yotes as much as the next person. Has told me, to shoot them (and yes they do enter our back yards), he won't say boo if I unload from my deck......(not that I would). They are in the fields behind us all the time (along with the cows)...

"Point" being.
There might be many reasons why one person would be ok with it, and the next not. Only way to find out is.

ASK FIRST!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

oh and btw Mike. My neighbour the urban snowflake, who retired from GM 15 years ago, doesn't hunt, has never hunted. Sure does love the Goose breast and Venison I've offered and given.

Hates Yotes as much as the next person. Has told me, to shoot them (and yes they do enter our back yards), he won't say boo if I unload from my deck......(not that I would). They are in the fields behind us all the time (along with the cows)...

"Point" being.
There might be many reasons why one person would be ok with it, and the next not. Only way to find out is.

ASK FIRST!

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Excellent reply posts and very well put.I have a neighbor up at the camp who has paying guests from Tennessee and who come up every fall to run their highly trained hounds on bear.Now even although he has pissed me of running deer with his own hounds in the past because of the way,s he goes about it,I have always given him permission to come onto my land if his guests have a bear running.I do this partly because I would not want to screw up his livelihood and I know taking out bears is good for my deer hunting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I don't think anyone posted about "loaded firearms in vehicles" unless I missed something.

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Yeh I did in my post #33 as part of a list of charges that could be laid when confronted by trespassers.I have been on a few of these hunts down by Newtonville ,years ago with an established gang.I can say they were all pretty well local farmers and all family related,as a guest I kept my trap shut and followed instructions.Anyway the hunts were a lot of fun,no problems with police or MNR. Although they have had some problems in the past,apparently trespassing on Farley Mowat,s land.LOL
This does get pretty exciting and the hunt camp captain I was with who had been hunting for over 50 years got so excited in the hunt he actually forgot where he placed his rifle and in a rush to the next intersecting spot ran over the gun with his pick up truck.Fortunately it was in the snow and it did not suffer any damage.But I also did see that guns were frequently left loaded in the trucks as we raced from on spot to another to get off a shot.This might be more the norm in this type of hunting where guys are rushing to set up a ambush point and don,t want to take the extra few minutes to load and unload.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

I know of neighbours who tresspass on other neighbours even when they have agreements in place, deer and coyote hunting, dogs and not.

The fact that people knew each other has nothing to do with it, in the past people talked and had permission to be on other peoples property, now they do not. If you run dogs you are responsible for them, you need to do the proper thing and talk to the neighbours and ask permission. It is one thing for the dog to run on to property that you do not have permission to hunt on, it is an entirely different thing to go on that property to release the dogs or knowingly trespass, as these people have does to the original poster.

Trespassing has always been illegal and I would like to know when keeping a loaded firearm in a vehicle and discharging it from said vehicle on or across the roadway was legal.

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all true but like I said things were different back 40-50 years ago. we never asked permission and to a person the farmers didn't care as long as we closed the gates after ourselves. having a loaded gun was never legal but I remember a local opp stopping by and actually taking a shot on a fox running by. T for sure it is a good thing that those rules are enforced now not saying it isn't. my point is that the tradition of running hounds goes back to this time and a lot of yesterdays ethos is still used by some of the guys running dogs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

all true but like I said things were different back 40-50 years ago. we never asked permission and to a person the farmers didn't care as long as we closed the gates after ourselves. having a loaded gun was never legal but I remember a local opp stopping by and actually taking a shot on a fox running by. T for sure it is a good thing that those rules are enforced now not saying it isn't. my point is that the tradition of running hounds goes back to this time and a lot of yesterdays ethos is still used by some of the guys running dogs.

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I guess that’s the rub, back when the farmers and hunters all new each other and agreements were made over a beer at the hotel. There was mutual respect and the use of the property was never abused. There was no need for forms and signatures, just a handshake.

Now with new land owners and new hunters in the area , there is no community bond to keep life as simple. So incidences like the OP describes happen, whether intentional trespass or not. I would like too think it is probably more a case of a lack of communication than wilfully braking the law by the hunters, but who knows.

Still a lot of old Family camps out this way Bardern and the traditions continue as you well know as, your not that far away . It sure is a welcome sight to see the guys filling the back of the pick ups with dead coyotes at the end of the run. Everyone benefits.

There's a lot to be said for tradition. Traditions like

posting duck blinds ( lol lets not) there's enough "hard feelings" about that just amongst hunters.

about old duck blinds, 105 yards from the nearest dwelling to....many don't like that either. Can say on our slice none of the 10 or so houses 100 yards away from 5 or 6 care. A few even wish I was allowed to shoot the hundreds of Geese on the water just off shore from their decks.......they might start minding if some inconsiderate duck hunter starts shooting towards shore, instead of waiting for a better angle...and then we all might lose a good thing/tradition.

further up the lane a guy that owns I think about 5 acres, he runs a dog training/agility school. I suspect he might mind if dogs and Coyotes hell bent on leather to escape start tearing through, or get into it with his clients dogs. I don't know, I'd have to ask him..........

do know I for one am sick of reading about cityiots and red neck country bumpkins. Had about 40 friends up on Saturday. All of them cityiots, some not keen on killing Bambi, but almost everyone loved the Venison chilli I served.

"True Story".
I have a game camera in my "back yard", specifically to help keep an eye on the Coyotes (girlfriend has 2 lap dogs). I caught one of the neighbours in "my backyard" in nothing but a bra and booties at 2am one night in it....now that's wildlife

i don't think of it as "mine", or "theirs" per se. I try to think of it as "ours", and everyone getting along in these changing times

Oh, and before I forget.
Of the 40 "cityiots" in my house on Saturday, only 1 was another hunter. Who is a snowflake to, that just moved to Lindsay.

The bear rug I had no desire to hide before hand incase it offended a few got all kinds of attention and questions. Including "how good does it taste".

A couple "cityiots" actually asked me "what word do you use? Do you really say "harvest".

I answered that the same way I do everything else. Straight forward, no "bs".

No, I kill them, I hunt to kill.
The look on a couple faces was priceless, they were a little taken aback. Guess they aren't used to plain talk. But within seconds they "understood", and went right back to digging into their venison.

i even got permission from one recent transplant to Seagrave to hunt all the rabbits on her 5 acres. And put a mineral luck in next year, knock down some Yotes possibly to. So long as I do the dirty work, clean the rabbits that are oh so yummy.

:)

JBen…I just got a PM that says you’re having some kind of meltdown and ranted away at me on the thread….that’s hilarious.

I told you back in Aug 2016 I was going to ‘ignore’ you and would no longer read or reply to anything you posted…and I haven’t. Sounds like you haven’t figured it out after 6 months and continue to post stuff for me. Obviously you haven't missed my clever repartee...LOL...

Like I told you back then, I have no interest in anything you have to say, but if it makes you feel better to talk to me in my absentia...well as the Brits say “Keep Calm and Carry On”..LOL…

It's official. This thread sucks. IBTL ..Lol

It's too bad actual hunting threads with pictures and stories don't get replies like this.....just the topics where people bicker get all the attention

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Mike would you like me to share the Pms Ive gotten?

In case you haven't picked up on some of the subtleties, the people your "continually "slagging" are your neighbors, are those who one day may or may not determine if yet another "tradition" goes the way of the Pigeon carrier. They are rural people, and city people alike. Except it wont be "their" fault. It might be because of attitudes, that think every person that moves to the country is an anti, or "cityiot" and an us vs them mentality thats as old as dinosaurs. yeah that's going to win someone over by calling them "cityiots" and Snowflakes....get them to understand, some things.

Hmm of the 800 or so people I know in Durham region, most of them "cityiots" Guess what a bunch are doing this weekend. Going to Easthill Outdoors "learn to shoot a bow"......

No Sense of community?
Well no wonder, your next neighbor is an uneducated cityiot before you've met him/her. Oh and that retired GM guy that wants me to shoot the feral cats, the coyotes, rabbits in our backyards....Hmmm, while up north hunting in December, he was shovelling the 2 feet of snow out of our 12 car driveway, another day I got a text from the GF, "someone's on an ATM plow it for me"......you were saying?

forest for the trees Mike

Ok Mike , it's your turn now! :)

Yeah, you might think by now, that some would know. Insulting people, be they people like the OP, be they the uneducated cityiots in the "middle", be they the "urban snowflake posters"...Isn't going to get you what you want, in fact quite the opposite. Always amazes how/why people are at all surprised or play victim, or seem to think the world be it here, or at "home" works any differently................Thank god my kids know A) how not to start something, B) know a bit about respect and C) Will never lose, or sell their own.