Looking for a Lab

Good day all,

We lost our family companion and my hunting buddy last fall. She was a great black lab. Time has passed and we are looking to home a new pup.

Hoping to to find a healthy, registered, tall, lean and athletic lab from hunting stock. It's my first foray into researching breeders in 13 years and people have been very friendly and helpful but we haven't found a pup yet.

The dog is going to a family, fenced yard, lots of training but not HT, FT, lots of hunting in the fall.

If anyone knows of any upcoming litters, please post or PM us. Not rushing this purchase, but ready to go when we find a good match.

Cheers,
Mike

Coopers Lane just North of you breeds some very good dogs. Might want to check in with them.

Thank much.

We have friends (non hunters) who have homed two pups from them, one a couple of months ago. Good breeders, great dogs, nice people, they have been very happy with them.

Seems like they are more 'English style' in physical appearance though. Nothing against that, but we are looking for a taller, lean lab, more 'American style' in appearance.

Cheers.

I am sure a couple of people on this forum could help you with finding the American working Lab locally.They may have already sent you a PM.

WElcome to the forum. Suggest you have a look at ( Google), Canadian Hunting Dogs Forum ; lots of good breeders there.

Thanks guys. I am (newly) on Canadian Hunting Dogs Forum also. Lots of good stuff there. Nothing firm yet, but maybe some litters late in the spring.

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Originally Posted by Bay Ducks

Thank much.

We have friends (non hunters) who have homed two pups from them, one a couple of months ago. Good breeders, great dogs, nice people, they have been very happy with them.

Seems like they are more 'English style' in physical appearance though. Nothing against that, but we are looking for a taller, lean lab, more 'American style' in appearance.

Cheers.

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No worries pal.

My friend has a couple from them. They are definitely English Labs. Not my taste either. My little black girl is an American. Leaner build.

I'll keep my eyes open.

A few thoughts for you:
Health-things have changed since your last dog, good breeders test not only hips/eyes/elbows but also heart, Exercise Induced Collapse(EIC) and Central neuro myopathy(CNM). If parents are certified clear you are good to go or be sure to see pups are tested.

By your description you are looking for what 'generally' would be described as a NA lab. Many people think 'English' lab as one being heavy headed and heavy body-not necessarily so as some of their field dogs are very similar to our NA labs.

I'd suggest you seek out a pup from solid field trial breeding for several reasons. Firstly almost all FT breedings are in line for the health clearances you require. Secondly, the gene pool from them will almost gurantee you the type of dog you want. Even though at this point HT/FT are not in the cards, you definitely want an intelligent dog, workable dog. You want an intelligent animal for many reasons and this is the best way to approach things. FT'ers breed for keen eyes for marking, inner drive to 'go', sagacity, memory, intelligence as well as solid health clearances. They are that deliberate.

Look for some titles in FRONT of the dogs name. This is not to brag about the pups parentage but a confirmation of abilities earned in competition and in all likely hood passed on to your pup. This is a far better measure then someone telling you how many ducks ole 'Moe" retrieved last year. In fact if you visit the NRCC web site or Retriever Results you can peruse an individual dogs accomplishments.

I see you said 'black', good choice as blk dogs still lead in performance followed by yellow dogs.

Remember, the price you pay for your pup is small considering the time you'll have him(her).

As well as the CHD forum, the RTF forum will give you a broader section of available dogs and don't worry about bringing them in from the USA as that's straight forward.

Good luck.

[QUOTE=krakadawn;1019241]Look for some titles in FRONT of the dogs name. /QUOTE]

To be a bit more specific with that title out front .... what krakadawn suggests is titles like FTCH or AFTCH (CKC field trial titles), FC or AFC (AKC field trial titles), GRHRCH or HRCH (HRC titles), GMHRCH or GMHR (NAHRA titles) These are all performance titles for the dogs work in the field as are MH (CKC or AKC) behind the dog's name. A "CH" in front of a dog's name is a title earned in the show ring and has zero field work involved.

Krakadawn, Dakota Creek,

Thanks much for the contributions.

I am 100% on board with everything you posted. Definitely see the value with dogs from HT, FT lines even if we will not compete. That is where we are primarily looking.

We don't intend to 'cheap out', or rush. God willing, this is another 13 year companion and responsibility. We are sort of transitioning from the 'gathering information' and 'getting educated' stage to actively looking. One definite option is to wait until fall and see what happens at Dakota Creek.

You are also correct, we are not hooked on 'American' vs. 'English', but I'm using 'American' as short-hand for athletic, tall and lean.

Cheers,
Mike

Hi I hope Bay Ducks does not mind if I hitchhike on his thread. I am also looking for a Lab pup soon. My old girl is 8 now and has slowed quite a bit. I have a feeling this fall or next will be the last she can be my #1 waterfowl dog. I also know good breeders have waiting lists so want to get a head start before I really need the new dog. It sounds like I am looking for a different type of dog than BD. I like a smaller dog, what I would call an "old fashioned lab". I want a birdy dog but also calm and naturally quiet. 90% of what a duck dog is supposed to do in nothing. I like the ones who are good at that part. Coat is also very important to me. I hunt a lot late season and many of the field trial labs I see these days have a coat which is little better than an English Pointer.

I think there are probably a lot of us here, reading this thread, in the same boat. My boy is exactly like you are looking for and what I will be looking for again. My boy is 10 now and still going strong, but it has to come to an end. I try to avoid the late season with him now, figure the cold will be hard on him in icey water.

Well single Malt, with due respect you need to broaden your horizons. My FT labs all have great coats and hunt through until January. To make things simpler, it's like this, coat doesn't matter as much as heart.
If coat carried the dog then the chessies would always have the edge.
Sorry but a poor observation on your part.

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Originally Posted by singlemalt

.....many of the field trial labs I see these days have a coat which is little better than an English Pointer.

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Huh????

Must be those "silver" labs .... you know the ones that are part Lab / part Weimaraner! ;)

Krakadawn, if your FT labs really do have the good old fashioned double coat I am very interested in one. However I heartily disagree with your statement that "coat does not matter as much as heart". My upland dog is a Working English Cocker. He has a heart bigger than his body can contain. If I sent him across the Niagara River after a goose in January he would go. However does this make it right or fair? A dog with bad hips will go and try but it is not fair to ask it of him. Instead we try and breed the deficiency out. In the past I had Labs who swam just for fun in January because their coats were so good they were comfortable doing it. I want another one like that. Not one that is so crazy to go they will put their own life and well being at risk to do so. I hope they still exist.

Come to a field trial and get a better perspective.

I like your example about your English cocker. I believe it confirms my point...heart/drive/sagacity is what drives our dogs. I understand that you would question whether this is right or wrong but the facts are clear...he goes because of desire.(heart)
A young person I mentored too has an English cocker. He has posted pics of his dog in January hunts with ice. Does he have a great coat, of course not but he has heart and wants birds!

We all look for the type of dogs to do what WE do. It would be a gross misconception to put coat at the top of your list. Good coat and no drive gets you very little. No doubt a good coat along with solid breeding that produces drive, memory, intelligence and tractability are the qualities one should search for.

My youngest who has been south with me since Feb has finally decided to blow his coat, you'd be surprised how much hair I clean out of his box each day.

By the way, when conditions are perilous then it's 'Father knows best' and the dog is not sent, another good reason for a quality whistle and e collar when hunting.
Cheers

A neoprene coat for your hunting buddy(dog)always helps on those cold frosty morning duck hunts on the water. ;)

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

A neoprene coat for your hunting buddy(dog)always helps on those cold frosty morning duck hunts on the water. ;)

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As well as a S.U.G.A.R. Coat to keep the wind off .....

Krackadawn, apologize if you find me difficult but I am an opinionated old guy, but not ill-informed. I have been to many field trials. I don't know how old you are but I may have been to as many as you. I participated with enthusiasm in the '80's (not with huge success but I was a contender), I continued to volunteer through the '90's. I pretty much gave up in the early 2000's when I realized that if offered there were few of the winning dogs I would want to take home. They were so high strung, e-collar dependent and thin coated they were no longer what attracted me to the Labrador breed.

My favorite gun dog was a was a whose sire was a FT CH but her mother was a show Lab. She had the great coat and calm nature of her mother but her fathers hunting desire. However, I know enough to realize this is a crap shoot. I could have ended up with a crazy high strung dog with a thin coat and no hunting desire. At this stage of my life I don't want to take that chance again.

I shoot mostly at Long Point where there is still a pretty good gene pool of good hunting dogs bred to good hunting dogs. I may go this root but what I really do appreciate about you field trial breeders in the attention to genetic defects like hips, elbows and eyes you maintain. I recognize the value of this and know I won't get this with a backyard breeding of just two good hunters.

I am hoping to find there is still a few out there whose idea of a good waterfowl dog is sound, calm, easily trained and birdy and with a thick double coat. They use to be pretty common. I don't believe I should need to give up everything else just to get desire.

Single Malt, you're in a hellava great area with numerous field trailers and a local pro who grew up hunting/guiding at Long Point. No doubt you may find something there. Since you've no doubt worked at the LP trial you should have seen numerous great dogs over the years. I judged that trial a couple of years ago and judged it numerous other times over the years , even in the 70's so yup been around.
I can name numerous dogs that won there and were also outstanding duck dogs in the marsh and in big ole Lake Ontario including a couple of mine.
You don't need to give up many things to get desire but when desire is not there things can be a challenge.......

PS don't forget about the other identified health issues currently being monitored....EIC, CNM

Ok Krackadawn sorry for taking you for a younger fellow. As you were judging in SW Ontario in the late '70's and early '80's you are no doubt part of the reason I have so few ribbons on my wall. Perhaps you, like all the other judges, don't have the same appreciation I do for a "free range labrador" ;).

However, I am still looking for a calm biddable pup with reasonable desire and a good coat. I have no interest at this stage of my life for trials or tests. I want a dog who is a quiet companion in my boat and who goes finds the ducks I shoot in reasonable range. I believe for the very few times a year that a 200 yard retrieve are required in hunting it is easier and less time to walk out there with your dog than the months it takes to teach it to do it with direction.

I would recommend our breeder but our two Goldens are broken. We wanted retrievers but found out they were leavers. The never return anything. :)

Great family dogs and are just giant teddy bears. The kids love them. Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Come to a field trial and get a better perspective.

I like your example about your English cocker. I believe it confirms my point...heart/drive/sagacity is what drives our dogs. I understand that you would question whether this is right or wrong but the facts are clear...he goes because of desire.(heart)
A young person I mentored too has an English cocker. He has posted pics of his dog in January hunts with ice. Does he have a great coat, of course not but he has heart and wants birds!

We all look for the type of dogs to do what WE do. It would be a gross misconception to put coat at the top of your list. Good coat and no drive gets you very little. No doubt a good coat along with solid breeding that produces drive, memory, intelligence and tractability are the qualities one should search for.

My youngest who has been south with me since Feb has finally decided to blow his coat, you'd be surprised how much hair I clean out of his box each day.

By the way, when conditions are perilous then it's 'Father knows best' and the dog is not sent, another good reason for a quality whistle and e collar when hunting.
Cheers

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I would be that guy with the cocker. Like kraka said, being an english cocker he has a shaggy single coat - not ideal for late season waterfowl but that doesn't stop him! IMHO any lab you get will have a better coat than a spaniel so I would not get hung up on "coat". It's amazing how well neoprene vests work and there are other products on the market too if necessary. I try to keep my guy as dry as possible between retrieves but that is most often a losing battle that time of year. Heart and work ethic are what make a great hunting dog. Nice to hear there's another english cocker out there. They're great little natural hunters and retrievers. We hunt everything from grouse, woodcock, and pheasants to ducks and geese. Don't discount 'heart'. My guy has no problem breaking ice for retrieves. Birds are king.

Wish you the best in getting a dog that fits your needs, I believe there are a couple of upcoming litters in your area.

Sorry about the ribbons....

Cass, nice to run into you here. We have talked on the UK forum. I certainly don't discount desire I just am not willing to sacrifice everything else to get it. Its why I am starting my search early. I know my old girl still has another season, maybe two, in her and the Cocker can certainly fill in as a duck dog as well at least until the middle to end of November.

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Originally Posted by singlemalt

Ok Krackadawn sorry for taking you for a younger fellow. As you were judging in SW Ontario in the late '70's and early '80's you are no doubt part of the reason I have so few ribbons on my wall. Perhaps you, like all the other judges, don't have the same appreciation I do for a "free range labrador" ;).

However, I am still looking for a calm biddable pup with reasonable desire and a good coat. I have no interest at this stage of my life for trials or tests. I want a dog who is a quiet companion in my boat and who goes finds the ducks I shoot in reasonable range. I believe for the very few times a year that a 200 yard retrieve are required in hunting it is easier and less time to walk out there with your dog than the months it takes to teach it to do it with direction.

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you are entitled to your opinion and by all means if that is the dog you want then by all means that is the dog you should look for.now you can believe what you want but I happen to love taking the time to teach the dog to do it with direction (handle).I guess every one needs something to do in their spare time and it seems to work out well with my other love hunting

now ive had some dam good hunting labs throughout my life but not until my eyes got opened at a field trial did I have some tremendous dam good hunting labs,why? just my opinion here but im pretty sure its the breeding along with the time effort I put into training them.i hunt extensively over my FT dogs and ive had no complaints about their behavior from anyone that comes along. in fact nothing but appreciation and admiration for the animals.frigid temps do not stymie their desire but it is just common sense dictates you do all you can to keep them warm in between retrieves and if you cant you do not send,coat or no coat it is when they are out of the water and waiting to go they will need a way to be kept warm,and they have properly fitted neopreme jackets.FT dogs are bred for all the attributes that im looking for in a hunting companion, but realize it is still a crap shoot,guess ive been lucky so far but believe my odds are better.

Go to a FT or HT or get out with a local HRC and see the dogs in person. Everyone is friendly and if you see a dog you like the looks of and which handles like you want, ask the owner about the blood line. Nothing beats seeing the dogs in person versus some claims on the internet. Once you get a short list of breeders, visit them and ask to see the dogs work. With the warmer weather starting the HRCs will be out in force, several not too far from you.

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Originally Posted by singlemalt

Ok Krackadawn sorry for taking you for a younger fellow. As you were judging in SW Ontario in the late '70's and early '80's you are no doubt part of the reason I have so few ribbons on my wall. Perhaps you, like all the other judges, don't have the same appreciation I do for a "free range labrador" ;).

However, I am still looking for a calm biddable pup with reasonable desire and a good coat. I have no interest at this stage of my life for trials or tests. I want a dog who is a quiet companion in my boat and who goes finds the ducks I shoot in reasonable range. I believe for the very few times a year that a 200 yard retrieve are required in hunting it is easier and less time to walk out there with your dog than the months it takes to teach it to do it with direction.

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Stick to your choice of what you want in a Retriever, you will find it.
I find it really amazing that there are so many out there that are constantly trying to tell people what they should buy based on their own choice.
Here we have an retriever owner that has been with Labs for a long time and knows what he wants, yet others are trying to change his mind because "this is the type of dog that I have and like, and I believe that you should have one also ".
This is just like someone saying "I drive a Chev, So it is the best truck for you , because I say so" .

This is what "singlemalt " was looking for;
[COLOR=#000000] I like a smaller dog, what I would call an "old fashioned lab". I want a birdy dog but also calm and naturally quiet. 90% of what a duck dog is supposed to do in nothing. I like the ones who are good at that part. Coat is also very important to me. I hunt a lot late season and many of the field trial labs I see these days have a coat which is little better than an English Pointer.

So why not help him find WHAT HE WANTS !

Thanks Jaycee, I was about to give up on finding what I was looking for through this forum. I will find what I want because I know what I want and I know others like dogs of this style as well. I have set aside time and I intend to be fussy as hell. I have had 50 years of gun dog ownership and none of my dogs has embarrassed me, ever. Sadly this will probably be one of my last so I don't intend to get talked into anything I don't like. I have a few leads and am talking to a couple of breeders who are respectful of what I am looking for. I will find it.

Again apologies to the OP whose thread I really seem to have high-jacked here. It sounds like he is looking for a very different type of dog and I hope he finds what he is looking for as well.

I have come and gone on this whole forum, just because of the type of thing that happened on this thread. Ask a question, explaining what you want and everyone take off in different directions say you really need this or that, that has nothing to do with what you want. Good luck. When it is my time to look, I think I will just troll around and not ask any questions.

Guys
I have no desire into talking you into something you don't want. You are welcome to search the globe, get the size, style, colour of dog you wish. You're feeding it so yes you should be happy.
I chimed in simply due to the comment that most FT labs you currently see have coats little better than a pointer. That is not only inaccurate but very, very untrue.
I concur with you the importance of coat but there are many other attributes one should pay attention to. Please note I am not recommending anyone's dog nor particular breeding.
It is clear though that comments like'those who don't appreciate a free range retriever' and other comments though said 'tongue in cheek' are somewhat anti field trial as you elaborated on further.
Good luck in getting what you want, I really understand your comment about 'maybe my last dog', I am fully onside with that!
Cheers

Your advice here is a tremendous attribute to this forum Krakadawn. Some people really don't want advice, they want their opinion/choice verified. (NOT talking about anyone in this thread.) It is very hard to have a lot of experience and not share it. Thank you for your input.

Like I mentioned earlier, pay attention when the experienced trialers jump in. These people have typically been exposed to hundreds if not thousands of dogs. Comments are based on experience. We may not intend to test or trial but winners are the product of training and genetics and competition will bring that to light.

OK people I think I am out of here. I feel like I walked into a pub looking for a cold pint and friendly conversation. Instead I find a hostile crowd not interested in my point of view. If the sign outside the pub said "Field Trial Dogs" I would have walked by but it said "Sporting Dogs" which I thought included me and my interests.

I know I am not anti-field trials, its just not what I do. Obviously they have been the primary driver in advancing sporting breeds. In fact I thought my comments around "free range labs" and "lack of ribbons" would establish that I am not trying to pose as an expert in the trial or training world. However I believe like everything involving competition it has a tendency to take things to the very extremes. If I was interested in competing in field trials I would certainly be looking for that breeding because with out it there is no way I could succeed.

But what I am is an average hunter and I need a dog which will be easy to train, calm and quiet in my boat, and a popular member of my family in the house. I also want a good thick double coat so I don't feel sorry for my dog late season. Sure he needs to get out there and find my ducks . But some days that number is 0 good days it might be 6-12. It is a pretty simple job for which I need a Jeep not a Maserati. I have been blessed to have had several dogs that fit this description and I am sure I will find another.

Again my sincere apologies to Bay Ducks whose thread I high jacked. Good luck in finding your pup.

Farewell.

Don't be so quick to run away single malt. Lots of great info and people here.

I don't pretend to have the wisdom of some in this particular subject especially where Labs are concerned. That said, I would be disappointed to see you leave singlemalt. The most salient reason is because we ALL can learn something from most everyone in this forum. To insinuate that we all always agree with each other is laughable however it does fuel our passion by virtue of those very same dynamics - agreement or disagreement. Besides, we want to pull the same way more-or-less and not serve the antis.
As to Labs - again, while not an expert allow me to offer this. There is a misconception within my clan (F.T. pointing breeds) that field trial bred dogs are haywire lunatics that will either go through your window or dig through your drywall for a sparrow. For the most part, certain non-hunters/non-field trialers have utilized this fallacy for self-serving motives. Nothing is further from the truth. I have developed quite a number of field trial dogs from horseback breeding to perform as delightful foot-handled gun dogs. More importantly, most of these dogs are companions in the home ~92% of the time. One English pointer out of Texas is literally a consummate couch potato and won't even climb out of his bed when I enter their home! He is a true part of their family in every way - calm, smart, biddable, friendly....amazing in the field!
On the flip side, I have HAD to develop dogs that were predominantly show bred to become field dogs. The challenge can be....significant. Further to that, I had one here that literally cannibalized it's own foot! It was insecure, volatile, needy/whiney, and severely lacking in natural ability.
To say that ALL F.T. bred dogs are delightful companions is no more realistic than to say ALL show bred dogs canalize themselves.
While genetics play a big part in the fabric of a dog, so does the owner/training/home environment/demand.
All of my customers expect wonderful companions in the home first and foremost. It's a given. There is still an expectation of capable field performance when the opportunity is there whether they hunt 3 or 30 times a season.
So, in my experience, the odds favour you getting a lovable companion as well as a capable canine athlete from a F.T. bred dog than to make a lovable companion and a capable canine athlete from a show dog. .....just sayin'.
As for coat, you should be able to address this requirement reasonably easily singlemalt. Go and see the dogs for yourself, as suggested. Then, draw your own conclusions. Now, since you want a hunter and not a trailer, you might skip trials and go straight to the hide/blind and see these dogs in a hunting application. Your eyes and your heart will serve you well, as will the pedigree that supports a rich history of field performance from unbiased third party observers.

OK people you are luring me back in. Probably my Doctor would advise against it. He has me take a pill every morning to lower my blood pressure. I don't think he would be happy to see me walking back into a conversation so likely to raise it :).

As seems to happen so often in these type of discussions people don't really read and get off on tangents disagreeing with me for what I DID NOT say.

Ugo, if you are who I assume you are, we have met a few times, I know you have a tremendous well deserved reputation in the pointing dog world. However with all due respect I don't know where you got the impression I was considering a Show Dog? I did say in an earlier post I had a very good dog many years ago who was out of a show breeding mother, but his sire was a FT dog who campaigned successfully for several years. I even added in that post that I would not go this route again because, although I was lucky with that dog "it is a crap shoot and you don't really know what you are going to get."

Krackadawn, you berate me for saying "most" FT dogs have poor coats. If you look at my first post you will see I did not say "most". I did say "many" Now many is kind of a nebulous word perhaps I could have chosen better. To me it implies more than 10% (less would be just a few) but certainly not 51% (which is when it shifts over to most). Perhaps a better word would have been "some". I don't think you can argue that some FT dogs have poor coats. Breeders are not selecting for it and in fact with the amount of summer training, early trials in hot weather and the very short time a dog is actually under the judges eye in the few very cold trials I fear that a dog which sheds heat quickly may even have an advantage in the modern trial world. I just don't want a dog with a poor coat.

What I did say was "I like a smaller dog, what I would call an "old fashioned lab". I want a birdy dog but also calm and naturally quiet. 90% of what a duck dog is supposed to do in nothing. I like the ones who are good at that part. Coat is also very important to me". Now instead of trying to help me those from the FT fraternity on here immediately (and perhaps tellingly) tried to talk me out of what I want. Expecting me to sacrifice what I have come to appreciate in a long lifetime of gundog ownership on the alter of "desire".

I would have been delighted if someone came forward and said "I participate in trials or tests and breed dogs like that, or know someone who does". I would be booking an appointment to see these dogs. That is the kind of help I was hoping for. In fact, in the end, I may have gotten it but "off line" six different members of this forum have PM'd me in sympathy and some with leads on the type of dog I am looking for. I have followed up on a couple of these.

Once again I know I will find what I want, because I know what I want, and I have set aside sufficient time to find it.

Moderators, I just went back into my previous post twice trying to add a word. It kept deleting it. Is this really a dog forum which does not allow the proper term for a female dog? ;)

Good to see you back Singlemalt. I'll start by restating my previous comment that I hope you find what you are looking for. It's a big world out there and there are some dogs with a wide range of qualities.

I started into Field trials years ago because I was such a dedicated duck hunter. I wanted a dog that could perform to the degree I knew I required. I still am and understand the qualities you have identified. No doubt 'most' of us would like our companion to be a patient and quiet companion while we're in the hide. I am totally onside with that perspective. My hardest going dog hits the scales at 66 pounds.

You are correct about some high powered dogs, I happen to own several and they have tremendous prey drive, in fact one tries to run across the water on launch. Some people like Cass have hunted over them and can confirm how high drive they are. He would also tell you how calm they are when they are beside me or how quickly the 'off' switch goes on when in the house. That domain falls under my control and from puppies they are taught to be like that.

I suppose some are born that way but more are trained to be like that. That's clearly my responsibility. Over many years I've only had one renegade so to speak.

I won't quibble with most/many, we might have discussed how dogs vary simply because of how they're kept. I can tell you that my FT dogs have excellent coats. Naturally dogs kept outside year round develop great coats as well. A number of years ago I bred a 'female' from Kapuskasing around the first of February. She was a FTCH dog that looked completely different at that time of the year than when I was used to seeing her, she was totally an outside dog with an outstanding coat.

By the way I didn't berate you, I simply believe that most/many of the FT labs I see have excellent coats.

Good luck in your search, those of us who do this understand the importance of the 'dog'!

I don't see any disrespect or berating anywhere in this thread ? just good discussion and exchanges of opinions based on each others experiences over the years and accumulated knowledge

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Originally Posted by singlemalt

Moderators, I just went back into my previous post twice trying to add a word. It kept deleting it. Is this really a dog forum which does not allow the proper term for a female dog? ;)

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Yes. :)

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Originally Posted by singlemalt

Moderators, I just went back into my previous post twice trying to add a word. It kept deleting it. Is this really a dog forum which does not allow the proper term for a female dog? ;)

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A bit auto censor here. Had similar problem referring to a certain species of willow. Best I could do was refer to it as Feline willow.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

A bit auto censor here. Had similar problem referring to a certain species of willow. Best I could do was refer to it as Feline willow.

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ROFL. Best auto-censor workaround yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Stick to your choice of what you want in a Retriever, you will find it.
I find it really amazing that there are so many out there that are constantly trying to tell people what they should buy based on their own choice.
Here we have an retriever owner that has been with Labs for a long time and knows what he wants, yet others are trying to change his mind because "this is the type of dog that I have and like, and I believe that you should have one also ".
This is just like someone saying "I drive a Chev, So it is the best truck for you , because I say so" .

This is what "singlemalt " was looking for;
[COLOR=#000000] I like a smaller dog, what I would call an "old fashioned lab". I want a birdy dog but also calm and naturally quiet. 90% of what a duck dog is supposed to do in nothing. I like the ones who are good at that part. Coat is also very important to me. I hunt a lot late season and many of the field trial labs I see these days have a coat which is little better than an English Pointer.

So why not help him find WHAT HE WANTS !

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ive been back and forth thru this thread and cant find anyone trying to get anyone to buy a dog they don't want in fact just the opposite ,repeated reiterations that every one should have the dog he wants, also alot of very sound advice from some very knowledgable people and a few flippant tonge and cheek remarks regarding ft bred labs,hey but it is all in fun,this thread is about the original poster and it seems to me all comments are really there for him,now he can sift thru it and make an informed decision based on the information, finding him what he wants? , looks like all have been contacted with the info they were seeking ? ive been following this forum for for like 10 years and have commented little due to the amount of times threads get derail and turn into something else .ive learned that people just don't know what they don't know,and they are going to listen to who they are going to listen to

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ugo

I don't pretend to have the wisdom of some in this particular subject especially where Labs are concerned. That said, I would be disappointed to see you leave singlemalt. The most salient reason is because we ALL can learn something from most everyone in this forum. To insinuate that we all always agree with each other is laughable however it does fuel our passion by virtue of those very same dynamics - agreement or disagreement. Besides, we want to pull the same way more-or-less and not serve the antis.
As to Labs - again, while not an expert allow me to offer this. There is a misconception within my clan (F.T. pointing breeds) that field trial bred dogs are haywire lunatics that will either go through your window or dig through your drywall for a sparrow. For the most part, certain non-hunters/non-field trialers have utilized this fallacy for self-serving motives. Nothing is further from the truth. I have developed quite a number of field trial dogs from horseback breeding to perform as delightful foot-handled gun dogs. More importantly, most of these dogs are companions in the home ~92% of the time. One English pointer out of Texas is literally a consummate couch potato and won't even climb out of his bed when I enter their home! He is a true part of their family in every way - calm, smart, biddable, friendly....amazing in the field!
On the flip side, I have HAD to develop dogs that were predominantly show bred to become field dogs. The challenge can be....significant. Further to that, I had one here that literally cannibalized it's own foot! It was insecure, volatile, needy/whiney, and severely lacking in natural ability.
To say that ALL F.T. bred dogs are delightful companions is no more realistic than to say ALL show bred dogs canalize themselves.
While genetics play a big part in the fabric of a dog, so does the owner/training/home environment/demand.
All of my customers expect wonderful companions in the home first and foremost. It's a given. There is still an expectation of capable field performance when the opportunity is there whether they hunt 3 or 30 times a season.
So, in my experience, the odds favour you getting a lovable companion as well as a capable canine athlete from a F.T. bred dog than to make a lovable companion and a capable canine athlete from a show dog. .....just sayin'.
As for coat, you should be able to address this requirement reasonably easily singlemalt. Go and see the dogs for yourself, as suggested. Then, draw your own conclusions. Now, since you want a hunter and not a trailer, you might skip trials and go straight to the hide/blind and see these dogs in a hunting application. Your eyes and your heart will serve you well, as will the pedigree that supports a rich history of field performance from unbiased third party observers.

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UGO, we've never met, but I want to tell you that your post is one of the best I've read on this forum. When someone says, I don't need one of those FT bred dogs, I hear, I want a hunting dog that won't take up too much of my time. They need a cat.

+1, and the dog described by the OP sounds just like the 13 yr old Lab which just left us 2 weeks ago. Hard to replace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Labber

UGO, we've never met, but I want to tell you that your post is one of the best I've read on this forum. When someone says, I don't need one of those FT bred dogs, I hear, I want a hunting dog that won't take up too much of my time. They need a cat.

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chit scott you just made me shoot milk out my nose,have you ever considered a career in stand up now we have met but I want to tell you that your post is one of the best set up and delivery of the punch line I have ever read period.normy is really wearing off on you :P I was just getting used to the normisms and now here comes a scottism ..... YIKES!!!!!

I have never met you either Hugo but your reputation certainly proceeds you.wish I had your talent for putting into words a bit of insight that also applies to our clan, and in a way that I cant see how anyone could mistake for some kind of beat down.absolutely solid.i have had the pleasure on several occasions to work my retrievers along side the pointers of some one you have mentored,Spencer Ray,and to this date have not seen finer pointing dogs,impressive,always enjoy talking dogs with Spencer,his success and the impressive work I witnessed assures me he's got it right.i to was lucky enuff to start out with the right people and escape the misconceptions and fallacies that are pushed by some and recognize good sound methods and breedings that will increase my odds of getting the dog with the right stuff.

Thank you for the kind words. The reason why I am where I am is because I have travelled that very same road(s) that each and everyone of you has travelled or is travelling. The difference where I'm concerned is that my passion made me a fanatic many years ago (~1978). It's the reason I am where I am now and the edge I have over some. On the downside, I am a "thick" study. Many of you would have surpassed me years ago given the same opportunities. The downside is that the many years I spent away trialing/judging all over the USA came with a price. I am truly blessed to still have my wife (in 2 weeks of 40 years!) and sons that still care for me. There is a dark side which I would not impose on any of you. Suffice-to-say, my dog training program had a steep cost.
Spencer is a wonderful trainer and stands on his own in that regard. I gave him wings - he soars on his own merit. I too had a mentor many years ago, a salt-of-the-earth gentleman (Pete Dolynski) that passed-on prematurely. Without him, I would never have had the successes in trials that I had early on. Let me share a quote he endearingly shared with me after a trial in my embryonic years, "Ugo, that dog did amazing....in spite of you." The sad part is, he was right!
Not to hi-jack, the OP needs to find what he wants as already mentioned by many. In that, lies a responsibility that is his and his alone. If he is happy we all are happy for him, I'm sure. If he is not, he alone will need to deal with the result of his choice. I learned a LONG time ago to be cautious of being too opinionated re a question like the OPs. I once recommended a certain breed from a certain breeder. My customer followed my lead and acquired THE most ornery, relentless, cement-headed, renegade I have EVER had to work with! Guess who had to get that turned around? I took a BEATING!!!
It's great that we all have an opinion. At the end-of-the-day, the OP needs to make the call but it helps to have this range of choices. Well done, y'all!
A cat eh......? Hmmm...any recommendations on a breed/breeder?

Having had the burden of having a cat in the house since I married my wife my experience is they won't hold and tend to creep. Don't like to retrieve to hand either. But, they are cheaper to feed and don't destroy grass.

There is currently a 6 month old black lab from FT stock sleeping at my feet. Around the corner is a 8 year old yellow from FT stock having a post breakfast nap too. Our house is not destroyed.Attachment 34817

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GRAARG

There is currently a 6 month old black lab from FT stock sleeping at my feet. Around the corner is a 8 year old yellow from FT stock having a post breakfast nap too. Our house is not destroyed.Attachment 34817

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Might that 6 month old be Pip with her buddy Ace??? :-)

Terrym, while I have not had the pleasure of meeting your wife, I believe your comments are somewhat harsh and insensitive. I'm confident that given some time, she could learn to retrieve.
Also, I have to disagree with your cheaper to feed comment.


:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dakota Creek

Might that 6 month old be Pip with her buddy Ace??? :-)

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[Begin thread hijack] I've been meaning to update you. She's awesome. Really, really spectacular dog. To the point of the thread, last night I was lying on the couch reading and she hopped up on it (which we need to stop but she's still so darn cute) and fell asleep with her head nuzzled on my legs. She loves nuzzling and sleeping on a lap (still). On the flip side, I had her out at Tiny Marsh for some training with GBHRC last weekend and she was shaking like a leaf in the holding area - just amped up to go. Still working on singles and extending the range a bit - most of all making it fun at this stage. Need to work on delivering to hand - she still drops it at my feet. And while 'heel' and 'sit' work just fine in absence of distractions she's still 6 months and obedience deteriorates when she gets wound up. But she is super easy to train so far - smart and eager to please. Learning much faster that her yellow buddy did.

No problems with gunfire, which was introduced accidentally as the kids were using their .22 around the corner at the cabin at New Year. Based on that I took her on a pheasant hunt Jan 19 - she basically followed the two big dogs around and had fun, which I considered a win. Put a pheasant wing on the Dokken last Saturday and she definitely amped up (and wasn't as keen to give it back to me as a dummy without a wing).

Pics are her and Ace on her first pheasant hunt, sleeping with her buddy at the cabin, and - she believes she can drive a Jeep - she hopped up there herself at the end of the hunt. I'll update you more later - but suffice it to say we are in love. [end thread hijack]
Attachment 34818Attachment 34819Attachment 34820

The dog in my Avatar is out out UK. FT, CH bloodlines and an absolute pleasure to hunt with as well as a calm family companion. She is beautifully built, incredible nose for finding game and leaves me in awe every time I work her. I cannot imagine another dog that would compare to her temperament and working ability. I never had to use an e-collar on her. I attribute that to her breeding and of course her early obedience training.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GRAARG

[Begin thread hijack] I'll update you more later - but suffice it to say we are in love. [end thread hijack]

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Thumbs up!! :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Labber

UGO, we've never met, but I want to tell you that your post is one of the best I've read on this forum. When someone says, I don't need one of those FT bred dogs, I hear, I want a hunting dog that won't take up too much of my time. They need a cat.

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A cat , as in "Jaguar " the ultimate retriever. noted for being a water lover, you will have no other hunters shooting over your decoys with one of these around, they will take off for the hills with theirs and the dogs tails between their legs.
Those long 300 PLUS yard retrieves would be a snap as they are extremely fast, no dog could keep up with them in speed.
Also would come in very handy in retrieving deer during the deer hunt as they can easily handle an animal that size.
Yes every one should have a cat , a "JAGUAR " :) :silly:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ugo

Terrym, while I have not had the pleasure of meeting your wife, I believe your comments are somewhat harsh and insensitive. I'm confident that given some time, she could learn to retrieve.
Also, I have to disagree with your cheaper to feed comment.


:)

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After that many years of marriage I'm done with training.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

The dog in my Avatar is out out UK. FT, CH bloodlines and an absolute pleasure to hunt with as well as a calm family companion. She is beautifully built, incredible nose for finding game and leaves me in awe every time I work her. I cannot imagine another dog that would compare to her temperament and working ability. I never had to use an e-collar on her. I attribute that to her breeding and of course her early obedience training.

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well yellow dog sounds like your rightfully proud of your dog and you should be,i have learn that this is the case for most dog owners and is the way it should be :)

im just curious and putting this out there for discussion and by no means trying to run down anyones dog and/or their expectations of their performance in the field
.you trained with the collar in the past? what sort of distances have you got your dog handling to for falls she did not see,the collar for me is not just a tool to enforce obedience (which it does) but also makes my training easier when teaching what I expect from my dogs at greater distances like getting out past short falls to that one that sailed and is now swimming away
just saying for me properly collar conditioning my dogs makes my life a lot easier when I am transitioning from basic to some very complex work

it sounds like you have a very nice dog,please don't think I don't think other wise,im always curious about others training methods and know of just one other non collar trainer that has their dogs doing some of the advanced work that I like to take the time ( and a lot of time it is) to instill in mine.i know its not for everyone

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quackaddict2

well yellow dog sounds like your rightfully proud of your dog and you should be,i have learn that this is the case for most dog owners and is the way it should be :)

im just curious and putting this out there for discussion and by no means trying to run down anyones dog and/or their expectations of their performance in the field
.you trained with the collar in the past? what sort of distances have you got your dog handling to for falls she did not see,the collar for me is not just a tool to enforce obedience (which it does) but also makes my training easier when teaching what I expect from my dogs at greater distances like getting out past short falls to that one that sailed and is now swimming away
just saying for me properly collar conditioning my dogs makes my life a lot easier when I am transitioning from basic to some very complex work

it sounds like you have a very nice dog,please don't think I don't think other wise,im always curious about others training methods and know of just one other non collar trainer that has their dogs doing some of the advanced work that I like to take the time ( and a lot of time it is) to instill in mine.i know its not for everyone

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No I am not really interested in having that discussion. Thanks for asking.

[QUOTE=quackaddict2;1021721]well yellow dog sounds like your rightfully proud of your dog and you should be,i have learn that this is the case for most dog owners and is the way it should be :)

im just curious and putting this out there for discussion and by no means trying to run down anyones dog and/or their expectations of their performance in the field
.you trained with the collar in the past? what sort of distances have you got your dog handling to for falls she did not see,the collar for me is not just a tool to enforce obedience (which it does) but also makes my training easier when teaching what I expect from my dogs at greater distances like getting out past short falls to that one that sailed and is now swimming away
just saying for me properly collar conditioning my dogs makes my life a lot easier when I am transitioning from basic to some very complex work

it sounds like you have a very nice dog,please don't think I don't think other wise,im always curious about others training methods and know of just one other non collar trainer that has their dogs doing some of the advanced work that I like to take the time ( and a lot of time it is) to instill in mine.i know its not for everyone[/QUOTE

Hey Quackaddict....I see you asked a very fair question about training without a collar, unfortunately that person chose not to want to discuss that question.....perhaps I can address some aspects of your question

A long time ago we all trained sans collar. We were younger and put more miles on our legs when we trained our dogs, water work demanded we get wet when helping our dogs understand the day's lesson. As you know there are almost no serious modern trainers NOT using a collar today. Unfortunately we still have many people apprehensive about collar training. As you know that is due to sheer ignorance and lack of experience. My collar trained dogs are far better behaved and certainly trained to a much higher degree than one not trained that way. If you were with me you probably wouldn't even know when my dog received a 'nick' for lack of effort for example. I think people have the opinion that ecollars will hurt/harm dogs....just is not so in fact I would argue that my dog receiving a 'nick' for something is far better than someone yanking or dragging on a lead.

I'm sure you are aware that there is a certain breeder that markets his dogs in a way to suggest they are 'naturals' and the ecollar is never used. He claims their breeding is responsible for such and they are the utmost gentleman's gun dog. Most north American trainers call this sheer bunk. An invitation has been given to said individual to bring his dogs out to any level of competition to demonstrate. He will not but continues to market that slant. This is very similar to the claims that breeders of 'silver' or 'champagne' labs make.....almost 100% of retriever trainers are not onside with either.

IS it possible to train a retriever sans collar? Sure it is depending on the skills of the trainer and more importantly his expectations but we're talking basics here. We're talking here, sit, heel etc. We are not talking the teachings of advanced retriever skills required by those who compete or those who wish to have a top gun dog. Don't think for a moment that because your dog will sit most of the time beside you that the same will be true at a distance or when involved in moving.

You asked the question about advanced handling. I don't think this is a fair question to ask as it is both not understood and seen to be not required by many. Better to just have a rock dog, eh Quack? You know throw the rock so the dog will go get bird. Most here would not understand the concept of diversions, poison birds, taking directions at long ranges etcc. Please feel free to correct me if those topics are well understood.

Many of the refined/advanced levels of training lend themselves to the use of the collar. So do the teaching/learning of basics certainly as it relates to keeping a standard, a high standard and one that is very observable.

I'd love to see a dog with transition/advanced or refined skills that was brought up without the use of a collar.I'm also equally convinced that most dog owners have no idea what 'advanced' skills even look like.

Hopefully some others will chime in with their experiences here after all it's really about having a well trained, well schooled and well behaved retriever to enjoy.

Well their you have it quackaddict. For a minute I thought I was on the Canadian Gundog forum instead of OOD. Thanks for the info.

You have plenty of background, feel free to respond..... irregardless of what forum it might be......

[QUOTE=krakadawn;1021734][QUOTE=quackaddict2;1021721]well yellow dog sounds like your rightfully proud of your dog and you should be,i have learn that this is the case for most dog owners and is the way it should be :)

im just curious and putting this out there for discussion and by no means trying to run down anyones dog and/or their expectations of their performance in the field
.you trained with the collar in the past? what sort of distances have you got your dog handling to for falls she did not see,the collar for me is not just a tool to enforce obedience (which it does) but also makes my training easier when teaching what I expect from my dogs at greater distances like getting out past short falls to that one that sailed and is now swimming away
just saying for me properly collar conditioning my dogs makes my life a lot easier when I am transitioning from basic to some very complex work

it sounds like you have a very nice dog,please don't think I don't think other wise,im always curious about others training methods and know of just one other non collar trainer that has their dogs doing some of the advanced work that I like to take the time ( and a lot of time it is) to instill in mine.i know its not for everyone[/QUOTE

Hey Quackaddict....I see you asked a very fair question about training without a collar, unfortunately that person chose not to want to discuss that question.....perhaps I can address some aspects of your question

A long time ago we all trained sans collar. We were younger and put more miles on our legs when we trained our dogs, water work demanded we get wet when helping our dogs understand the day's lesson. As you know there are almost no serious modern trainers NOT using a collar today. Unfortunately we still have many people apprehensive about collar training. As you know that is due to sheer ignorance and lack of experience. My collar trained dogs are far better behaved and certainly trained to a much higher degree than one not trained that way. If you were with me you probably wouldn't even know when my dog received a 'nick' for lack of effort for example. I think people have the opinion that ecollars will hurt/harm dogs....just is not so in fact I would argue that my dog receiving a 'nick' for something is far better than someone yanking or dragging on a lead.

I'm sure you are aware that there is a certain breeder that markets his dogs in a way to suggest they are 'naturals' and the ecollar is never used. He claims their breeding is responsible for such and they are the utmost gentleman's gun dog. Most north American trainers call this sheer bunk. An invitation has been given to said individual to bring his dogs out to any level of competition to demonstrate. He will not but continues to market that slant. This is very similar to the claims that breeders of 'silver' or 'champagne' labs make.....almost 100% of retriever trainers are not onside with either.

IS it possible to train a retriever sans collar? Sure it is depending on the skills of the trainer and more importantly his expectations but we're talking basics here. We're talking here, sit, heel etc. We are not talking the teachings of advanced retriever skills required by those who compete or those who wish to have a top gun dog. Don't think for a moment that because your dog will sit most of the time beside you that the same will be true at a distance or when involved in moving.

You asked the question about advanced handling. I don't think this is a fair question to ask as it is both not understood and seen to be not required by many. Better to just have a rock dog, eh Quack? You know throw the rock so the dog will go get bird. Most here would not understand the concept of diversions, poison birds, taking directions at long ranges etcc. Please feel free to correct me if those topics are well understood.

Many of the refined/advanced levels of training lend themselves to the use of the collar. So do the teaching/learning of basics certainly as it relates to keeping a standard, a high standard and one that is very observable.

I'd love to see a dog with transition/advanced or refined skills that was brought up without the use of a collar.I'm also equally convinced that most dog owners have no idea what 'advanced' skills even look like.

Hopefully some others will chime in with their experiences here after all it's really about having a well trained, well schooled and well behaved retriever to enjoy.[/QUOT

Hey KraKa

well I was curious,i guess I asked the question about the advanced handling because of the great work YD's dog was doing and with out the collar,just wanted a comparison.yes I'm aware we all have different expections so when I hear about a great dog that is not collared trained my first thought without seeing such dog is what kind of work is it doing?im not saying its not a nice dog and its not getting done what he needs it to,but I still don't know if the dog handles or not, never mind anything beyond and the unwillingness to talk about it has me left only to make assumptions that it may be rudimental

the statement that not needing a collar was due to the breeding and obedience I found unsual and certainly would have loved to hear more,this is a forum for open discussion is it not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

No I am not really interested in having that discussion. Thanks for asking.

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I'm sorry to hear that , especially after noticing that snippet of wisdom at the bottom of your post re William Pollard

I can't speak for Yellow Dog. I am sure he has his reasons but I think of a forum a lot like a pub. It's cheaper to drink at home but a pub is where you go to have a beer and chat with someone. Some are friendly and welcoming. Some are full of bullies looking to shout you down, push you around and tell you how much more they know than you do. I tend to frequent the former and avoid the later.

Cheers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by singlemalt

I can't speak for Yellow Dog. I am sure he has his reasons but I think of a forum a lot like a pub. It's cheaper to drink at home but a pub is where you go to have a beer and chat with someone. Some are friendly and welcoming. Some are full of bullies looking to shout you down, push you around and tell you how much more they know than you do. I tend to frequent the former and avoid the later.

Cheers!

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Well said singlemalt. You and I have had discussions of training before as well as the use of an e-collar and how/when it should be applied. I don't think we are that far off the mark. ')

Quote:

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Originally Posted by singlemalt

I can't speak for Yellow Dog. I am sure he has his reasons but I think of a forum a lot like a pub. It's cheaper to drink at home but a pub is where you go to have a beer and chat with someone. Some are friendly and welcoming. Some are full of bullies looking to shout you down, push you around and tell you how much more they know than you do. I tend to frequent the former and avoid the later.

Cheers!

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AW I like your analogy Singlemalt but I would add in any discussion some contribute and others don't...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Well said singlemalt. You and I have had discussions of training before as well as the use of an e-collar and how/when it should be applied. I don't think we are that far off the mark. ')

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well first off it is good to see singlemalt still on the forum, and yellow dog I'm still eager to hear your views on the e-collar and how and when it should be applied,i have engaged you in a friendly way but it appears you snub me.you have made a claim in your original post and now again in this one that I find very intriguing.is there a time and place I could witness you and your dog working together?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Well said singlemalt. You and I have had discussions of training before as well as the use of an e-collar and how/when it should be applied.

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The thing is -- and I say this as the same guy who has often written here that e-collars are the most overused and misused training tool in gundog training today -- Kraka's approach is the state of the art in collar use. Way more sophisticated than the blunt application as punishment / deterrent that is so prevalent. As far as how/when it should be applied, I listen to up-to-date retriever trainers above anyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quackaddict2

well first off it is good to see singlemalt still on the forum, and yellow dog I'm still eager to hear your views on the e-collar and how and when it should be applied,i have engaged you in a friendly way but it appears you snub me.you have made a claim in your original post and now again in this one that I find very intriguing.is there a time and place I could witness you and your dog working together?

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No thank you. Not interested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by singlemalt

I can't speak for Yellow Dog. I am sure he has his reasons but I think of a forum a lot like a pub. It's cheaper to drink at home but a pub is where you go to have a beer and chat with someone. Some are friendly and welcoming. Some are full of bullies looking to shout you down, push you around and tell you how much more they know than you do. I tend to frequent the former and avoid the later.

Cheers!

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good to see you back singlemalt,

sometimes we should step back and look at things,a bigger picture,you have your ideas and others have theirs,there is no reason why we can not chat about them in a civil manner,now ive been nothing but friendly and inviting,if you see other wise then please point it out to me,guess over the years I'm developing a thick skin because i do not mind how you come across but others may find some of your words offensive.those that know me in the community can tell you i am far from being a bully and dedicate a lot of my time helping others advance their dogs wether they want to run field trials,hunt tests,or just hunt over them.the knowledge i try to share has been accumulated over a number of years just like many others on this forum,i worked hard to get it,you want to suggest that some people are a bunch of know it alls when they don't fit into your little box.what is wrong with the exchange of ideas and opinions,someone might disagree with you?

again good to see you back

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bay Ducks

Good day all,

We lost our family companion and my hunting buddy last fall. She was a great black lab. Time has passed and we are looking to home a new pup.

Hoping to to find a healthy, registered, tall, lean and athletic lab from hunting stock. It's my first foray into researching breeders in 13 years and people have been very friendly and helpful but we haven't found a pup yet.

The dog is going to a family, fenced yard, lots of training but not HT, FT, lots of hunting in the fall.

If anyone knows of any upcoming litters, please post or PM us. Not rushing this purchase, but ready to go when we find a good match.

Cheers,
Mike

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I'm not a lab person so can't help. I hope you've been able to find some help in this thread. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

No thank you. Not interested.

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suddenly i get the feeling ive been taken in by a troll ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quackaddict2

suddenly i get the feeling ive been taken in by a troll ?

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In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion, often for the troll's amusement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quackaddict2

suddenly i get the feeling ive been taken in by a troll ?

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You haven't. YD is not a troll; he has learned to avoid obvious confrontation . YD and I don't always get along, but I never could tolerate the bullying of anyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sharon

You haven't. YD is not a troll; he has learned to avoid obvious confrontation . YD and I don't always get along, but I never could tolerate the bullying of anyone.

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well then I will be be sure from here on in to disregard his claims as just talk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quackaddict2

well then I will be be sure from here on in to disregard his claims as just talk

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Good call there is 20 minutes of your life you will never get back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3 black dogs

Good call there is 20 minutes of your life you will never get back.

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As yellow dog has stated many times " very well said" :goodstuff:

On one hand the Lab FT fraternity wants my input but then they don't, hmmm very interesting. Which is it ? Clearly I can understand why this FT group has shrunk over the years due to it's politics and dysfunctional behavior being displayed on this thread and others as well. I have never in all my years being involved in a variety of different types of dogs sports clubs have come across such a mean spirited group of people in all my life. To actually think I would share my experience and knowledge with the FT click is absurd especially with the mean spirited tone which the group of you have expressed. I have formed a couple good relationship with OOD forum members but unfortunately one is no longer a member due to the hostility.
I will continue to be a forum member discussing OOD topics and continue to post in the very near future picture, video footage of my UK working Labs in action doing what they have been bred to do at the level I choose to train them at ! I am not FT guy and will never be and have been completely soured by the small group of you. I will not share any of my training techniques with any of the FT members because you couldn't care less what I think. But that's okay by me, I don't have an issue with that whatsoever. But I will continue to share my training techniques and continue to meet with the few I have been sharing on a regular bases through PM's, emails , planned pheasant hunts, duck hunts , rabbit hunts and training days.
I cannot believe and understand what great lengths some of you will go to try and discredit someone who clearly has experience and will discredit them openly . Remember this is not the Canadian Gundog Forum who some of you are members of, it is Ontario out of Doors. This is not your platform ,if it were you would be doing a lousy job trying to gain new members.I am not looking for your blessing or approval. I have pro's that I confide in when I run into a training issue. Hopefully these attacks end soon before the MOD's step in because no matter how you deliver your opinion it is still an attack and bullying.

Well that's quite a response Yellow Dog. I guess since you've cloaked me as one of the FT group I'd like to respond. I'll try to do it in several sections so that the communication is clean. I think when people are not standing together discussing things as opposed to typing there can be a variation in interpretation.

I openly disagree with your assumption about the field trial community being mean spirited. If you attended any given National event as an example you would see the opposite...collegiality and support. You have attributed the blame all on one side, there may be some truth to that but as in all things there are always 2 sides(or more) to a story. I would suggest you examine your responsibilities here as well. Please do not read this that I am putting blame on you rather than simply to suggest that people from various perspectives can quickly get polarized.

You have shared with us some of the background you have had with sled dogs. I have always said how valuable that is. everything from diet, feeding, training and conditioning. Discussions have at times arisen in the arena of retriever training. There are several here who have many decades in that sport. If you make some statements about training/pedigree, breeders then you will likely invoke a response from any of them.
Is their answer the only one? Of course not but since many of us have been standing on that line for numerous years , we too have garnered some valuable time in the saddle.
My response to that type of engagement is to respond 'how you see things'. People are entitled to their opinion and while it is certainly fair ball to disagree with someone one should never be a bullied as Sharon and I have discussed and both would agree.
If you open the door with a comment in a discussion then try to walk away I think someone will likely ask you why??

In regard to 'not caring what I think' , I disagree. You don't have to be a field trailer for me to appreciate and perhaps learn from someone else's techniques. Usually though there will be discussion and that's where one should substantiate their information to help others better understand what they are attempting to accomplish and why. You can count on me to be in that camp. I will ask to seek clarification.

I think your suggestion about posting some actual training is wonderful. This provides a basis for evaluating, sharing and learning. You do have to be prepared though to accept suggestions or questions about the training. I'm trying to be positive here. I do not believe people are out to discredit anyone openly or not. I do believe though that when statements are made that are lacking in pedagogy or current practice you will receive a response.

For example if someone stated that all FT labs are too small(or too big) then someone who sees them on a regular basis is going to respond. I attend enough trials in Ontario and various Nationals to see what dogs are being run. I also see most of the top USA dogs in competitions in the south. I'd like to think my perspective is reasonable and fairly accurate. Getting a little closer to home with past discussions about British labs as an example the same is true to the extent that I do not see virtually any competing. That's just an observation.

I'm glad you have made some contacts through this level of media, that is one of the pluses to find/meet others who are like minded in the things we do.

Your reference to the Canadian Hunting Dog Forum was not a fair reference. Who cares what forum some of the members here belong to, that is their business and they , like you are certainly free to make those choices. You attempted to tar them because they might have been on another forum.

I don't think anyone is looking for a platform here. Usually the discussion is pretty fair unless you get to the 'shooting' dogs threads. That one tends to heat up. We are not looking to give you approval or a blessing as you have said. What I do see is though an effort to help people who don't know or need assistance or clarification or a pointing in the direction of resources. You will often see me say'you're free to make your own mind up', go your own way'. I do try to prevent people getting ripped off with poor choices they will regret later and challenge people to think. The whole discussions about dog health is front and center here. As I recall I was trying to get people on board with what testing is currently available and for potential buyers to challenge breeders about items like EIC and CNM that most knew nothing about.

I think when you state your opinion it's like a hamburg....if you provide no meat it's very hollow and lacking in substance and likely someone will question that statement. This is not bullying YD, this is an interactive medium. If you believe you are being bullied please PM me and I will do what I can as I do not support that ever.

However, if we were discussing a concept like force fetch and I asked you why/how you approached that, please do not confuse that with bullying. That's just interactive.

Sorry you're feeling that way, hopefully you will see things in a different light.

Cheers

I am not a FTer, I hunt ducks and pheasants and occasionally do a HT to benchmark training and progress. But I have never found anyone in the FT community to be anything other then helpful. Everyone has their preferred technique but I have never found any of the FTers to be anything other than hugely supportive of dogs and training even if their techniques are different.

Thanks I appreciate your input however if you were to read between the lines from some of the FT group members it is clear they have it out for me. If I hadn't said anything earlier this morning the next few days would of been a barrage of comments aimed at me. As soon as I make any statement the bottom of the page titled, Thread Information ,there are currently # users browsing this thread , almost immediately it is full of FT lab people reading my comment and then making a comment. I know when I am being set up. I can pretty much predict who will comment first and who will follow.
For the most part 90% of the time I do not say anything related to gundog training because I know I will be attacked. That's the truth and the sad reality. Even if you only believe half I what I have said it is still a big problem. I have gone the extra mile in the last year and a half to respect all views when it comes to training and could easily go head to head with anyone. But I have chosen not to out of respect unless it completely missed the mark. I am first to admit that I have made mistakes in the past and it takes two to tango.
When current/new forum members start sending me PM's about the attacks directed at me I cannot ignore that. I do not have your knowledge as well as some of other FT group members and may never will. If I wanted to discuss FT training then I would of joined the Canadian Gundog Forum but I didn't and have no desire to. Instead I joined the OOD forum that is vastly different from that forum as it should given the wide variety of topics presented and discussed.
In saying that I should not be tip toeing around a small group of FT people on this forum when they have another platform to discuss such topics to their hearts content. This not an FT forum it is a forum to discuss all dog sports. If it were I would then join another forum.
Thanks


I believe you have sugar coated some or your thoughts/concerns with regards to what I have stated earlier but I respect your opinion even though I do not agree with you.

Time to give it a rest YD. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sharon

Time to give it a rest YD. :)

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Absolutely ! ;)

You people are unbelievable!