Tundra Swan Permits Have Increased

Hello Guys,

The USFWS has increased the Tundra Swan permits by 25% for the 2017 -2018 season. This means that there will be another 2400 tags available over the regular 9600 tags for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans this year.

If you want to hunt Tundra Swans then you can go to the United States or contact Delta Waterfowl and the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters to tell them that enough is enough ... you want our 41% share of the tags. If you do not ask then you will not hunt.

I prepared a Tundra Swan fact sheet that provides a review and update on the hunting of swans in North America from 1615 to the present. I provided 100 copies for the Delta Waterfowl Norfolk Chapter Dinner in June. Did anyone see them?

For more information see Wildfowl Magazine (Vol 32 No 4 Page 11).

Jerome

Ya ... I think it is time for Canada to get our share of the swan hunt, and we thank Jerome for his work on this subject.

A Tundra season here could also give us an opportunity to start lowering the Mute swan population ... I would love to see a tag for a Tundra Swan, which allows the holder to shoot Mute swans until they fill the tag ... in other words, shoot swans one at a time, if you shoot a mute, do not tag it ... this can continue until you actually shoot a Tundra, then you are done shooting swans. I am not sure this would fly, but personally if I had a tag, the mute swan population would go down around here, they are easy to tell apart, and I could likely take 50 mutes a year without taking a Tundra. That was just a thought I had to help get the mute population down, or at least under control since they go up each year.

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Originally Posted by Gadwall

Ya ... I think it is time for Canada to get our share of the swan hunt, and we thank Jerome for his work on this subject.

A Tundra season here could also give us an opportunity to start lowering the Mute swan population ... I would love to see a tag for a Tundra Swan, which allows the holder to shoot Mute swans until they fill the tag ... in other words, shoot swans one at a time, if you shoot a mute, do not tag it ... this can continue until you actually shoot a Tundra, then you are done shooting swans. I am not sure this would fly, but personally if I had a tag, the mute swan population would go down around here, they are easy to tell apart, and I could likely take 50 mutes a year without taking a Tundra. That was just a thought I had to help get the mute population down, or at least under control since they go up each year.

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But can you yell the difference between a Tundra and a Trumpeter ?

Trumpeters and Tundras are similar looking species that are more difficult to identify. Reports from wildlife observers will help biologists monitor the recovery of Trumpeter Swans. Positive identification is essential, as Trumpeters often mix with flocks of the relatively common Tundra Swan throughout their migration and winter range.

Distinguishing Trumpeters from Tundras is not easy, but it is possible by paying close attention to a few distinctive characteristics.

I have seen many post on here by [hunters] saying they are seeing a lot of snow geese when what they are seeing are actually "Tundra " Swans.

If hunters ? cannot tell the difference between a snow goose and a tundra swan, HOW are they going to distinguish the difference between a tundra and a trumpeter swan?
This is where I have a problem with a swan hunt around here, too many yahoo's that just want to kill.

They seem to hunt them OK in other jurisdictions no problem, why would it be different someplace else?

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Originally Posted by jaycee

But can you yell the difference between a Tundra and a Trumpeter ?
I have seen many post on here by [hunters] saying they are seeing a lot of snow geese when what they are seeing are actually "Tundra " Swans.
If hunters ? cannot tell the difference between a snow goose and a tundra swan, HOW are they going to distinguish the difference between a tundra and a trumpeter swan?
This is where I have a problem with a swan hunt around here, too many yahoo's that just want to kill.

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funny you should say that...
Attachment 35427

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

They seem to hunt them OK in other jurisdictions no problem, why would it be different someplace else?

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Reread my post above yours !

There are loads of arctic (Trumpeter) swans in Northwest Ontario.
Ten years ago, there were only four nesting pairs.
Now the number has much higher.
Last fall I saw, in two areas separated by over 100 km, groups of swans numbering 25 in one place, 17 and 10 in the others
Attachment 35432
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They are clearly increasing their numbers.

Having one of Her Majesty's swans for Christmas Dinner would be great.
But I doubt we will ever be included in the zones of legal hunting.

Hello Guys,

I am writing in response to your comments.

Gadwall. You have an interesting idea whereby a Tundra Swan permit would permit an individual to hunt Mute Swans as well. However if the Mute Swan was removed from the List of Protected Species (it never belonged there) then it would be the same as a starling ... no season per se and no bag limits. However I would suggest that you convey your support and idea to the CWS nevertheless.

Jaycee. As previously discussed on another thread there could be some sort of mandatory Swan Identification Course or a swan brochure issued with the permit. Another idea that I have previously suggested is that there could be No Swan Hunt Zones where Trumpeter Swans are located. Since the Trumpeter Swans are mainly located in eastern Ontario a limited (tag only) Tundra Swan season could be restricted to south western Ontario to reduce the risk of an incidental harvest of a Trumpeter Swan. I have forwarded this idea to the OFAH staff for their due consideration.

Great White. There apparently has been no problems with the Tundra Swan seasons in the United States. The Trumpeter Swan Society (TTSS) would also review any proposed Tundra Swan season to reduce (not eliminate) the risk of an incidental harvest of a Trumpeter Swan as per my ongoing correspondence with them.

Snow Walker. Thank you. Check out TTSS Web site for a really good swan identification brochure that you may download and print.

Johny. Trumpeter Swans are not called Arctic Swans but Tundra Swans were once called Whistling Swans. However the Trumpeter Swan population has been increasing over the last few decades ... especially the Interior Population. See the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment for more details. Only the Mute Swan is known as the Queen*s Swan.

For more information you may contact Mr. Jack Hughes (Manager, Wildlife and Habitat Assessment, CWS) by e-mail ([email protected]) or phone (1-613-949-8259).

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

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Jaycee. As previously discussed on another thread there could be some sort of mandatory Swan Identification Course or a swan brochure issued with the permit. Another idea that I have previously suggested is that there could be No Swan Hunt Zones where Trumpeter Swans are located. Since the Trumpeter Swans are mainly located in eastern Ontario a limited (tag only) Tundra Swan season could be restricted to south western Ontario to reduce the risk of an incidental harvest of a Trumpeter Swan. I have forwarded this idea to the OFAH staff for their due consideration.

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Trumpeter Swans are also being raised here in this area, [south of Cambridge ] at Onondaga Farms, this as the way the Swan flies, is not far from Long Point.
We don't need any Trumpeter Swans shot by mistake in this area.

Hello Jaycee,

Thank you for that information about Trumpeter Swans.

I have seen and recognized Trumpeter Swans at Long Point. About two or three years ago I had a pair of Trumpeter Swans fly over my back yard one afternoon at about 1630 hours. The next day they flew over again at the same time and again about a week later at the same time.

Although Trumpeter Swans look similar to Tundra Swans they are a lot larger and they sound completely different. Again positive identification is a requirement just like differentiating between some species of ducks.

If in doubt ... do not shoot would apply to swan hunting as well.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Thank you Jerome for all the hard work you are doing, I really hope one day this all becomes a reality and we are able to have a swan hunt in Ontario. We will have you to thank for this opportunity if it does!! I still can't believe there are actually HUNTERS who oppose this.................. The last thing that should stop this from happening is identification issues, how many birds and other hunting species in Ontario make the hunter have to identify there target.........oh ya ALL of them!!!!!!! If you are not willing to do the proper research in the game you are after then you need not apply!!

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Although Trumpeter Swans look similar to Tundra Swans they are a lot larger and they sound completely different. Again positive identification is a requirement just like differentiating between some species of ducks.

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Trumpeter Swans fly around here quite often by themselves, to the uninitiated it would be difficult to recognize them for what they are , they are larger than Tundra Swans ? yes , and as for sounding different, yes they do ! but very often they fly silently , they are not as vociferous as the Tundras, and I have found that they fly lower than the Tundras which would make them an easier target for some wannabe hunters.
Most definitely "positive identification must be a requirement".

If the Swan hunt came into effect would the first year birds be included?? or just mature White birds??

I would rather a swan hunt then doves. Doves are not even worth the price of a steel pellet

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I would rather a swan hunt then doves. Doves are not even worth the price of a steel pellet

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Or is it because of your inability to hit small flying targets ?

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Originally Posted by Rodbender

If the Swan hunt came into effect would the first year birds be included?? or just mature White birds??

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Now that would be extremely hard to distinguish the young birds from other swans.
Another big consideration for the case of a Tundra Swan hunt, glad you have brought that question to the fore front .

To feed each person in the house would require about 10 doves per person. I started raising my own chickens because the ones in the store were so small mine are the size of 2.5 chickens. Even grouse I need 2 per person or it's just a taste.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Now that would be extremely hard to distinguish the young birds from other swans.
Another big consideration for the case of a Tundra Swan hunt, glad you have brought that question to the fore front .

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The whole ID argument holds no weight at all. Its like saying don't shoot snow geese because they look like seagulls. Its pretty simple to make sure you are shooting the right birds. I would LOVE to knock down a swan.

S.

^^^^this............enough said on the whole identification issue.

Wasn't there also something about making it legal to hunt cranes as well?

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

To feed each person in the house would require about 10 doves per person. I started raising my own chickens because the ones in the store were so small mine are the size of 2.5 chickens. Even grouse I need 2 per person or it's just a taste.

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You must eat a ton, at our house 4 to 5 dove breasts is enough per person, along with some potatoes and veggies.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Wasn't there also something about making it legal to hunt cranes as well?

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Now that is something that I would definitely hunt, as they are very tasty , some call them "rib eye of the sky "., and you can't mistake them for any other bird.
Swan on the other hand , the adult birds [old ] are tough and not tasty, and it is a shame [ to me] to kill a bird like that and turn it into sausage meat.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Now that is something that I would definitely hunt, as they are very tasty , some call them "rib eye of the sky "., and you can't mistake them for any other bird.
Swan on the other hand , the adult birds [old ] are tough and not tasty, and it is a shame [ to me] to kill a bird like that and turn it into sausage meat.

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How do you know what swans taste like? I'd put mine on the wall anyways.

I'd bet people would be shooting great blue herons instead of cranes......just sayin

The whole ID thing is a waste of breath. If that's the only reason anyone can come up with to restrict a season on swans, then there should be a season.

S.

I agree the ID should not be a deciding factor, the sustainability of the species in the face of hunting should be. Although the resistance to delisting the Mutes I think has to do with ID, the worry that hunters will take native swans if they are allowed to shoot mutes ... I am all for a Tundra season in Ontario, but for my purposes I am more interested in being able to hunt the invasive mutes and do some environmental good at the same time. The last two years in my area have seen a substantial increase in Tundra swans in the fall, but the mutes still outnumber them 3 to 1 in the areas I have seen the most Tundras, and the mutes are here all year round.

From what I hear from Americans that have hunted Tundra, the young taste better than the adults, and I expect the hunt would include young if we can get it implemented.

As far as doves go ... 5 doves in a stir fry I find plenty for the two of us for a meal.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

How do you know what swans taste like? I'd put mine on the wall anyways.

I'd bet people would be shooting great blue herons instead of cranes......just sayin

The whole ID thing is a waste of breath. If that's the only reason anyone can come up with to restrict a season on swans, then there should be a season.

S.

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What do I know about how they taste " by actually eating them at a friends house who hunted them legally.
Great Blue herons and Sandhill Cranes, no mistaking the two, both absolutely different.

Sinker , Do you know or can tell the difference between Tundra and Trumpeter Swans ?, or even Mute Swans.

Even if i couldnt ID the swans, i would be sure as sure before i pulled the trigger on one.....but, yes, i can easily ID swans from a distance and on the wing, no problem. Its not hard.

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk

Hello Guys,

In response to some comments:

1) A limited Tundra Swan season would include mature and young birds. The young Tundra Swans (light grey in colour) would be with their parents and are better eating. The young adult Tundra Swans (yearlings) are white and are good eating (as per conversations with those who have hunted them). The older adult Tundra Swans would probably be with their cygnets and could be tough depending upon their age ... just like geese.

2) The sustainability of a limited Tundra Swan season is not in question ... please check out the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment. I had someone post it on this waterfowl forum back in the summer of 2013 when it was completed.

3) Some form of swan identification may be a requirement but it could be an online course (check out the State of Nevada swan identification course) or just a Swan Identification Brochure provided with your permit (check out The Trumpeter Swan Society web page and click on Swan Identification).

4) I previously have offered to contribute $10,000.00 to the OFAH to produce a Swan Identification Guide that could be part of a mandatory or optional course in the future to apply for a permit. The guide could be in an online, video or printed format. The OFAH did not responded to my offer. I recently have offered to financially support a survey of OFAH members and Delta Waterfowl members to determine the level of interest for a limited Tundra Swan season ... waiting for a response from both of these organizations.

5) The Mute Swan somehow received a special unwarranted status years ago but it is an invasive species that must be dealt with accordingly.

6) A limited Sandhill Crane season in Ontario could be a possibility after this year because the CWS is in the final stage of their amendments to the Migratory Birds Regulations (MBR) that will include a mechanism to hold a limited (tag only) season for a particular species. This mechanism was not available in September of 2014 when I questioned Mr. J. Hughes (CWS) further about a limited Tundra Swan season. The CWS subsequently decided to review and amend the MBR accordingly. This was required before a limited season could even be considered for either Tundra Swans or Sandhill Cranes.

7) I have offered the CWS an initial grant of $20,000.00 with a subsequent annual grant of $4,000.00 for twenty (20) years to financially support the implementation and monitoring of a limited Tundra Swan season. Mr. J. Hughes (CWS) has recently advised me that the CWS can not accept the above grants from The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation. However he also advised me that the CWS already receives funds to implement and monitor migratory bird harvests.

8) There will never be a limited Tundra Swan season in Canada if we do not ask or better yet ... demand one. I have also been in contact with the Manitoba Wildlife Federation and the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation recently.

I hope that the above has been of some interest to you.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Buddy, you mention that the OFAH has not responded to you, that Delta Waterfowl has not responded to you. You go onto mention that you have been in contact with Manitoba Wildlife Federation and the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation, has that contact been positive for your proposal?

As for the Canadian Wildlife Services (a Federal Government Department) not accepting funding from your foundation, I would expect that from them. How could a government department accept funding from an Foundation to do a study, when that Foundation has already clearly indicated their wishes, if they agreed with you how would we know their opinion was unbiased, based in research and not due to the funding?

Hello Doug,

I tried to correct (clarify) the contents of my post but I lost my connection. Please re-read my point 4 for further clarification.

I did have a meaningful telephone conference call last summer with the OFAH staff and I received a letter from the President of Delta Waterfowl last fall. My latest offer to both organizations was rather recent so some additional time may be warranted.

The Manitoba Wildlife Federation was receptive and interested in the idea so I provided some additional information for their due consideration. I have not heard back from the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation yet.

I will keep you guys posted on any developments.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

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Originally Posted by Doug

Buddy, you mention that the OFAH has not responded to you, that Delta Waterfowl has not responded to you.

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Originally Posted by Doug

You go onto mention that you have been in contact with Manitoba Wildlife Federation and the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation, has that contact been positive for your proposal?

As for the Canadian Wildlife Services (a Federal Government Department) not accepting funding from your foundation, I would expect that from them. How could a government department accept funding from an Foundation to do a study, when that Foundation has already clearly indicated their wishes, if they agreed with you how would we know their opinion was unbiased, based in research and not due to the funding?

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My thoughts on this . " them not responding to you " , it seems to me they are telling you in a round about way that they are not interested in holding a swan hunt in this province.

I also agree with what was said about The Canadian Wildlife Service not accepting your donation.

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Originally Posted by Doug

Buddy, you mention that the OFAH has not responded to you, that Delta Waterfowl has not responded to you. You go onto mention that you have been in contact with Manitoba Wildlife Federation and the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation, has that contact been positive for your proposal?

As for the Canadian Wildlife Services (a Federal Government Department) not accepting funding from your foundation, I would expect that from them. How could a government department accept funding from an Foundation to do a study, when that Foundation has already clearly indicated their wishes, if they agreed with you how would we know their opinion was unbiased, based in research and not due to the funding?

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I believe (but I could be wrong) that you just started a north Perth Delta chapter, by your last post I take it you are against a swan hunt????? Please clarify your stance on this.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

[B]

My thoughts on this . " them not responding to you " , it seems to me they are telling you in a round about way that they are not interested in holding a swan hunt in this province.

I also agree with what was said about The Canadian Wildlife Service not accepting your donation.

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So you think Delta is against a swan hunt in Ontrario????? Is Delta not a leader in PRO HUNTER rights??? You do realize Jerome is not trying to get additional swan permits just get our share that was given to the eastern states.



Jerome could you please PM me your email so I can get more info on your proposals so I can pass it on, I'm in contact with a Delta chapter who is actually interested in this hunt coming to fruition.

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Originally Posted by duckslayer

I believe (but I could be wrong) that you just started a north Perth Delta chapter, by your last post I take it you are against a swan hunt????? Please clarify your stance on this.

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And What da' puck does that have to do with anything? According to Buddy Boy, there have been no decision given to him from either Delta, or OFAH for that matter.

I did not start a North Perth Chapter, it was started by a group of people... a chapter is not one person; but a group of people, all of whom have the ability to think for themselves. I am the secretary... because I had a pen and paper. There is no 'Cool Aid' that you have to drink to join the Chapter, the moment I am told I have to 'toe the line' is the moment I will leave. There are enough dictatorships in this world were people have to 'toe the line', 'drink the Corporate Cool Aid' I am not about to join one. I am also a member of the OFAH, whom Buddy mentions, oh and Ducks Unlimited too! Do I agree with everything each of the groups do?... No, will I still support them?... Yes.

My stance in the post was one that I have taken before with Buddy Boy's posts, he tends to mention a lot of names of organizations and individuals that he has been in touch with, not giving their stance; but allowing the reader to assume they are all in support of his position, name dropping if you would. I was calling him out, asking not only for him to mention that he had been in contact with them; but to give their stance on his proposal, which he has done and I commend him for doing so.

As for my personal opinion, it is just that personal; but so that you may know, my mind is not made up yet.

I have to ask Buddy Boy here is putting his money where his mouth is and trying to contribute something to the hunting community and holy crap he gets slammed harder then PETA.

How many of you guy's slamming him are putting thousands into hunting. Crap maybe he should give the money to anti hunters and some of you would be happier.

Each person slamming him I will assume is contributing 10's of thousands and time on top of that.

I appreciate what Buddy boy is doing I can't offer to match him but I do offer my support and what he is trying to do for the hunting community.

Hunters are their own worse enemies.

The swan hunt in Ontario is over due. Thanks buddy boy for everything you are doing to help create another hunting opportunity here in Ontario.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I have to ask Buddy Boy here is putting his money where his mouth is and trying to contribute something to the hunting community and holy crap he gets slammed harder then PETA.

How many of you guy's slamming him are putting thousands into hunting. Crap maybe he should give the money to anti hunters and some of you would be happier.

Each person slamming him I will assume is contributing 10's of thousands and time on top of that.

I appreciate what Buddy boy is doing I can't offer to match him but I do offer my support and what he is trying to do for the hunting community.

Hunters are their own worse enemies.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this

Hello Guys,

I did a quick review of the numerous letters that I have written recently to the various organizations regarding this topic.

1) The CWS has been very supportive of my proposal ever since I submitted it to them in October of 2010. In fact the CWS conducted a Tundra Swan Season Assessment between April of 2011 and August of 2013 that fully supports my proposal from a biological perspective ... it is totally sustainable.

2) However the CWS also told me that there would be costs involved in the implementation as well as the monitoring of such a season. That was the reason for me establishing The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation in December of 2010 as per my consultation with RBC Dominion Securities. I currently have a total of $210,000.00 in investment capital ($25,000.00 per year for 10 years plus an extra $10,000.00 for a special swan identification project if it was accepted) earning an annual return that is available for any "waterfowl" organization that supports "waterfowl" hunting. However term "waterfowl" includes ducks, geese and swans.

3) The CWS then conducted a review of the Migratory Birds Regulations (MBR) from the fall of 2014 to the present time ... should be finalized by this fall. This will include a mechanism that will permit a limited (tag only) season for a particular species ... Tundra Swan or Sandhill Crane as examples.

4) Unfortunately the CWS advised me in June of this year that they will not be able to accept the $20,000.00 that I have available for them or the additional $4,000.00 that I will have available annually for them over the next 20 years. Consequently the CWS has suggested that these funds be available to other "waterfowl" related projects.

5) The OFAH organized a telephone conference call with me last summer regarding my proposal. Mr. A. Lombardo (Executive Director) Mr. M. Deville (Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services) and Ms. D. Sucee (Biologist, Fish and Wildlife Sevices) advised me that they had received and have reviewed the CWS draft amendments to the MBR that included a mechanism for a limited (tag only) season. They also acknowledged that the Tundra Swan is a migratory game bird and that the hunting of them is permitted under the law. However they expressed a concern that they did not know how many OFAH members may be interested in such a season. They also expressed a desire that if such a season was implemented that it was done correctly.

6) Dr. F. Rohwer (President, Delta Waterfowl) responded to my letters last summer by stating that Delta Waterfowl will "remain silent" on my Tundra Swan proposal for two reasons. The first reason is that they do not know how many of their members would be interested in such a season. The second reason is that they recognize a "human dimension" to having such a season.

7) I have joined, supported and sponsored The Trumpeter Swan Society (TTSS) since 2014 knowing that they are not against the hunting of Tundra Swans as per their web site. They are aware of my Tundra Swan proposal and have agreed that they would review an official CWS Tundra Swan season proposal to limit (not eliminate) the risk of the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans.

8) I met Mr. T. Worden (President, Ducks Unlimited Canada) in the fall of 2011 and we subsequently discussed my Tundra Swan proposal. Although he expressed his personal interest in my Tundra Swan proposal he advised me that this topic was outside of the DUC's mandate. I have however periodically kept him informed of any new developments regarding this topic.

I trust that this has clarified where everyone stands on this topic.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Hello Duck Slayer,

Please phone me any evening 519-586-9825.

Must go now battery is low.

Jerome

I personally thank you for all the work you have put into this, Jerome. You are a good man. I hope this comes to be, and one day I will be lucky enough to draw a tag to get me a swan. Keep up the great work.

S.

Buddy Boy, aka Jerome... thank you for filling in some of the blanks on your exchanges with the various organizations, it is certainly more informative knowing what their stances/responses have been to your proposal.

Hello Duck Slayer,

I will try sending you a private message as requested but have to figure that out on this forum.

I can fax you an extensive amount of information regarding this Tundra Swan initiative so please contact me (519-586-9825) to discuss what it is that you would like.

There will be funds available for Delta Chapters and OFAH Clubs that support this Tundra Swan initiative ... more on this later this fall.

Jerome

Attachment 35559Attachment 35560Attachment 35561I have hunted swans in North Dakota. They are an exciting bird to hunt and really are the "big game" of waterfowling. On those hunts we hunted them over decoys and often in the sloughs where Canvasbacks were common. Both those species feed on similar aquatic vegetation and most often on Sago Pondweed. The swan decoys also functioned as attractors to other waterfowl, since they can see them from a long distance and know that there will be food at that location. Here are a few photos of the swan hunts along with a water retrieve by our Lab. He has 4 water retrieves on swans on his record. The decoys in these photos are hand carved wood decoys including the swans.

Grouseguy congrats on getting a trophy swan, would love to get one myself one day.

Hello Grouse Guy,

Thank you for posting the photos of your Tundra Swan hunt.

Jerome

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Originally Posted by GrouseGuy

Attachment 35559Attachment 35560Attachment 35561I have hunted swans in North Dakota. They are an exciting bird to hunt and really are the "big game" of waterfowling. On those hunts we hunted them over decoys and often in the sloughs where Canvasbacks were common. Both those species feed on similar aquatic vegetation and most often on Sago Pondweed. The swan decoys also functioned as attractors to other waterfowl, since they can see them from a long distance and know that there will be food at that location. Here are a few photos of the swan hunts along with a water retrieve by our Lab. He has 4 water retrieves on swans on his record. The decoys in these photos are hand carved wood decoys including the swans.

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After looking at these pics I can see why no hunt here I cant tell if those are Tundra or Trumpeters ???

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Originally Posted by Rodbender

After looking at these pics I can see why no hunt here I cant tell if those are Tundra or Trumpeters ???

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When you tap on the pictures you can clearly see the solid black bill ( eye blending in with black). or lack of orange ( Mute) or yellow ( Tundra).

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

When you tap on the pictures you can clearly see the solid black bill ( eye branding in with black). or lack of orange ( Mute) or yellow ( Tundra).

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That's fine, but can you see that when they are flying overhead at 35 to 40 yards, not very likely.
I would hate it if hunters shot a swan and after it was dead on the ground, they identified it as a trumpeter, "oh, oh, wrong species " sorry but you can't bring it back to life, "it is dead "

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Originally Posted by jaycee

That's fine, but can you see that when they are flying overhead at 35 to 40 yards, not very likely.
I would hate it if hunters shot a swan and after it was dead on the ground, they identified it as a trumpeter, "oh, oh, wrong species " sorry but you can't bring it back to life, "it is dead "

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I only seem to see swan at two distances. So high I am not sure you could hit them with any shoulder mountable weapon short of a stinger missile system, or too close to engage with a firearm. Nothing like paddling around a clump of grass and bumping into a swan with your kayak.

If your not 100% sure Don't shot. If your not sure you can control your "Swan Fever ", Don't hunt swans.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

When you tap on the pictures you can clearly see the solid black bill ( eye branding in with black). or lack of orange ( Mute) or yellow ( Tundra).

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No kidding (I have taken pics of all three Species) I was being sarcastic Tundra Swans are half that size
I was just wondering why posted pics of Trumpeter Swans are OK?????

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Originally Posted by jaycee

That's fine, but can you see that when they are flying overhead at 35 to 40 yards, not very likely.
I would hate it if hunters shot a swan and after it was dead on the ground, they identified it as a trumpeter, "oh, oh, wrong species " sorry but you can't bring it back to life, "it is dead "

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Your seriously still going on with the identification issues???? What happens when you have a deer in the brush and you only have a buck tag, do you shoot it and find out after what it was??? No you positively identify your target before the shot. Same applies for the swans.........can't tell it's a tundra......YOU DON"T SHOOT!!!! What can't you understand about that??? If we went by your logic a lot of game should not be hunted because someone might not identify it correctly ................ GIVE IT UP!!!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buddy Boy

Hello Duck Slayer,

I will try sending you a private message as requested but have to figure that out on this forum.

I can fax you an extensive amount of information regarding this Tundra Swan initiative so please contact me (519-586-9825) to discuss what it is that you would like.

There will be funds available for Delta Chapters and OFAH Clubs that support this Tundra Swan initiative ... more on this later this fall.

Jerome

---

Jerome, I received your package in the mail yesterday, I will review it with my Delta rep in my area asap and get back to you. Thank you!

[QUOTE=duckslayer;1035756]Your seriously still going on with the identification issues???? What happens when you have a deer in the brush and you only have a buck tag, do you shoot it and find out after what it was??? No you positively identify your target before the shot. Same applies for the swans.........can't tell it's a tundra......YOU DON"T SHOOT!!!! What can't you understand about that??? If we went by your logic a lot of game should not be hunted because someone might not identify it correctly ................ GIVE IT UP!!!!!!!


http://www.trumpeterswansociety.org/...%20IDcolor.pdf

Is there any other way to be sure except for seeing those little patches of colour on the bill?

I'll get to practice identifying very soon.
We have loads of swans nesting wild in the Rainy River district in the last few years.
They often fly over my canoe within "gunning" range as we hunt ducks.
It'll be interesting to see how easy if I can see that detail.

Quote:

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Your seriously still going on with the identification issues???? What happens when you have a deer in the brush and you only have a buck tag, do you shoot it and find out after what it was??? No you positively identify your target before the shot. Same applies for the swans.........can't tell it's a tundra......YOU DON"T SHOOT!!!! What can't you understand about that??? If we went by your logic a lot of game should not be hunted because someone might not identify it correctly ....

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Links to fines for shooting trumpeter swans;
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/new...beandmail.com&
http://wellingtonadvertiser.com/inde...ail&itmno=6362
https://www.ofah.org/2003/03/o-f-a-h...umpeter-swans/
http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePoll...l-hunters.html

Be very careful as it can be a very expensive mistake.

Hello Guys,

A few points:

1) Snow Walker made a good point ... not sure of the bird do not shoot.

2) Duck Slayer also made a good point regarding deer hunting.

3) I have not had a problem identifying the three (3) species of swans at Long Point on the water or in the air. Please refer to The Trumpeter Swan Society web site and click on the Identification Brochure that you can print. Could someone post a "J Peg" for the brochure?

4) The state of Nevada has an online Swan Identification course that you can take at no cost. This course is a requirement before you can buy a permit. Please check this out. Can someone post the connection to the course on this thread?

4) A limited Tundra Swan season would permit an incidental harvest of a few Trumpeter Swans in which there would be no penalties or fines. However if you shoot a Trumpeter Swan and you do not have a permit to hunt Tundra Swans you are in deep trouble. The interior Trumpeter Swan population can sustain an incidental harvest of a few birds without a problem as per the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment ... please read it.

5) I suspect that those fines that Jaycee referred to were in relation to areas that did not have a Tundra Swan season.

6) A staff member of the waterfowl community told me on no uncertain terms that a wildlife official had told him/her that they are aware that there are hunters who are harvesting Tundra Swans in Ontario so why not have a legal season so that we know what is being harvested. All birds harvested must be recorded.

Hope that helps.

Jerome

PS Duck Slayer ... could you scan and post my Tundra Swan fact sheet and update on this thread for the others to read?

Where does delta waterfowls Dr. Scott Petrie the organization’s Chief Scientist and Chief Executive Officer feel about a swan hunt?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Links to fines for shooting trumpeter swans;
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/new...beandmail.com&
http://wellingtonadvertiser.com/inde...ail&itmno=6362
https://www.ofah.org/2003/03/o-f-a-h...umpeter-swans/
http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePoll...l-hunters.html

Be very careful as it can be a very expensive mistake.

---

Where are the links for shooting wrong deer, duck, Goose, or keeping wrong fish.

How many of those fines were given out to people that shot a swan out of season or where there is no season.

Like I said before any swan I am in shooting range of is normally less the 20 feet. Many times the swan and I are close enough to trade physical blows and insults. With that in mind I think bow hunting them from a kayak would be very exciting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Where are the links for shooting wrong deer, duck, Goose, or keeping wrong fish.

How many of those fines were given out to people that shot a swan out of season or where there is no season.

Like I said before any swan I am in shooting range of is normally less the 20 feet. Many times the swan and I are close enough to trade physical blows and insults. With that in mind I think bow hunting them from a kayak would be very exciting.

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Just google it, and you will be kept busy reading.

Misidentification , is the biggest problem for many, tell me how can you shoot and kill a man , mistaking him for a bear or a deer -huh???
How can you mistake an elk for a deer the size difference is very appearant , shooting a caribou and thought it was a moose - huh ??, shooting a dog , said they thought it was a coyote , looked nothing like a coyote, and it keeps happening , why ? because there are too many that are just trigger happy, don't read the rules and regulations , shoot while it's too dark to identify, and others do it and will keep it up till they get caught.
This sure puts the hunting community in a very bad light, and just think of the hue and cry from the public when it is posted in newspapers that some "hunters " shot an endangered , protected trumpeter swan .

And there is this one , Huntress shoots a man while hog hunting at night .

Jaycee, you have a burr under your saddle that has nothing to do with the idea of a swan hunt. Maybe you should start a thread about the high numbers of cases of game mistakenly shot because of ( List too long to list) on the part of the hunter. You, I think would be happily surprised at the over whelming agreement from others on the forum.

Your singing the right song, but in the wrong choir.

Snowwalker found this " just for you, ";)

Trumpeters and Tundras are similar looking species that are more difficult to identify. Reports from wildlife observers will help biologists monitor the recovery of Trumpeter Swans. Positive identification is essential, as Trumpeters often mix with flocks of the relatively common Tundra Swan throughout their migration and winter range.

Distinguishing Trumpeters from Tundras is not easy, but it is possible by paying close attention to a few distinctive characteristics

From the latest reports that I could find, there are slightly over just 1,000 Trumpeter Swans in Ontario, so why take the chance of killing even just a few accidentally as it has taken the people involved in the restoration project to raise this many [which is not a lot ] , since 1982.
Think about it , 35 years to get the total up to around 1,000 , that' about 28 to 30 per year, to loose a few to accidental miss identification puts a very serious dent in the breeding population .
Yes I have a burr under my saddle as people are working hard to restore these magnificent birds , some very close to where I live, and others want to take a chance and accidentally kill them.

If you want to shoot/kill Tundra Swans , go to where there is an actual legal season for them , the same as I have had to do to hunt Antelope, Elk, Big Horn Sheep and Caribou as none of these animals can be hunted in Ontario even thou there are Caribou in this province.
The person that is pushing for a Tundra Swan season here, obviously has the means to go hunt them where ever they are hunted, as he is willing to put up well over $ 10,000 to $20.000 to establish a season here.
I would not be against this , "if there were no Trumpeter Swans here " but there are and they are mixing with Tundras. Myself , I have absolutely no Inclination to hunt them here, If I should choose to do so, I will travel to where the Tundras can be hunted, I will enjoy the experience along with the change of scenery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Where are the links for shooting wrong deer, duck, Goose, or keeping wrong fish.

How many of those fines were given out to people that shot a swan out of season or where there is no season.

Like I said before any swan I am in shooting range of is normally less the 20 feet. Many times the swan and I are close enough to trade physical blows and insults. With that in mind I think bow hunting them from a kayak would be very exciting.

---

You've never seen a Tundra Swan then

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rodbender

You've never seen a Tundra Swan then

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Seen a few up close. Lots of hissing and bluffing on their part, but only had to "handle" one. They get real calm when your holding their head down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Seen a few up close. Lots of hissing and bluffing on their part, but only had to "handle" one. They get real calm when your holding their head down.

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Wasn't in Ontario then unless in March at Almer

I don't think he is the only one who would like to hunt them.

I can also come up with many reasons questioning why we even have a Elk hunt. Technically with less than 2000 animals they should be considered endangered. There are and always will be many reasons not to have some sort of hunt.

Antelope, Big Horn Sheep to the best of my knowledge don't and never have existed in Ontario.

There are more Caribou then Elk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Snowwalker found this " just for you, ";)

Trumpeters and Tundras are similar looking species that are more difficult to identify. Reports from wildlife observers will help biologists monitor the recovery of Trumpeter Swans. Positive identification is essential, as Trumpeters often mix with flocks of the relatively common Tundra Swan throughout their migration and winter range.

Distinguishing Trumpeters from Tundras is not easy, but it is possible by paying close attention to a few distinctive characteristics

From the latest reports that I could find, there are slightly over just 1,000 Trumpeter Swans in Ontario, so why take the chance of killing even just a few accidentally as it has taken the people involved in the restoration project to raise this many [which is not a lot ] , since 1982.
Think about it , 35 years to get the total up to around 1,000 , that' about 28 to 30 per year, to loose a few to accidental miss identification puts a very serious dent in the breeding population .
Yes I have a burr under my saddle as people are working hard to restore these magnificent birds , some very close to where I live, and others want to take a chance and accidentally kill them.

If you want to shoot/kill Tundra Swans , go to where there is an actual legal season for them , the same as I have had to do to hunt Antelope, Elk, Big Horn Sheep and Caribou as none of these animals can be hunted in Ontario even thou there are Caribou in this province.
The person that is pushing for a Tundra Swan season here, obviously has the means to go hunt them where ever they are hunted, as he is willing to put up well over $ 10,000 to $20.000 to establish a season here.
I would not be against this , "if there were no Trumpeter Swans here " but there are and they are mixing with Tundras. Myself , I have absolutely no Inclination to hunt them here, If I should choose to do so, I will travel to where the Tundras can be hunted, I will enjoy the experience along with the change of scenery.

---

Quote:

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Antelope, Big Horn Sheep to the best of my knowledge don't and never have existed in Ontario.

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Never said they did, is there something you don't understand here?
What I am saying , is that if you want to hunt whatever, go where they are , there are moose in Ontario, but not where I live , so I have to travel to that part of Ontario where I can hunt them. same as bears , go where the game that you want to hunt is , simple as that.
Also no different than the season for over abundant species ie; snow geese they are only hunted in Unit 65 from Mar. 01 to May 31 /2017 , if I want to hunt them I have to travel to where they are legally hunted, although I do see them around here landing in some fields, but! I cannot hunt them here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rodbender

Wasn't in Ontario then unless in March at Almer

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No up in Uranium City SK. Lots of ponds and areas for them to stop over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Never said they did, is there something you don't understand here?
What I am saying , is that if you want to hunt whatever, go where they are , there are moose in Ontario, but not where I live , so I have to travel to that part of Ontario where I can hunt them. same as bears , go where the game that you want to hunt is , simple as that.
Also no different than the season for over abundant species ie; snow geese they are only hunted in Unit 65 from Mar. 01 to May 31 /2017 , if I want to hunt them I have to travel to where they are legally hunted, although I do see them around here landing in some fields, but! I cannot hunt them here.

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I knew what you were saying. I do travel to hunt. One of the benefits of the job.

Well there are Tundra Swans in Ontario, so whats the problem. The Identification excuse is crap you do know that. On your reasoning we should pretty much ban hunting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Never said they did, is there something you don't understand here?
What I am saying , is that if you want to hunt whatever, go where they are , there are moose in Ontario, but not where I live , so I have to travel to that part of Ontario where I can hunt them. same as bears , go where the game that you want to hunt is , simple as that.
Also no different than the season for over abundant species ie; snow geese they are only hunted in Unit 65 from Mar. 01 to May 31 /2017 , if I want to hunt them I have to travel to where they are legally hunted, although I do see them around here landing in some fields, but! I cannot hunt them here.

---

Quote:

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Well there are Tundra Swans in Ontario, so whats the problem. The Identification excuse is crap you do know that. On your reasoning we should pretty much ban hunting.

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So what's the problem ? It's guys like you!
It's very obvious that this is something you will never understand, even the " Experts in the field " say that identification is a definite prerequisite, did you not read the other post ?
My reasoning is definitely "not to ban hunting " but go where the game is like most other hunters.

There are thousands and thousands of tundra swans that migrate through Ontario every fall and spring, absolutly no reason to travel when we have them right here.............no point in going back and forth with you........

Guys like me? You don't even know me nor have you hunted with me. So clearly you have an extremely limited view of this and you obviously have an ax to grind. It also seems to me you are clearly in the minority.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

So what's the problem ? It's guys like you!
It's very obvious that this is something you will never understand, even the " Experts in the field " say that identification is a definite prerequisite, did you not read the other post ?
My reasoning is definitely "not to ban hunting " but go where the game is like most other hunters.

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The majority of residents in the long point area and hunters are strongly against a swan hunt, this is where a good majority, people have been against it for 10 years or how ever long he has been pushing this, dose he have any support from any major hunting clubs or organization?
in long point theres hundreds of people watching the swans so be that many city people watching you shoot them and fact is trumpeters will die and the people don't want that down there, cause its gunna start a storm

Long Point is only one area in the province, folks there are welcome to their view but there are many other areas that have a perspective on this issue. The sun does not rise and set in Long Point only. There are many areas that are developing a population.

Why would we consider the input from a 'major hunting club'?

I think there are a few people here who have a well grounded perspective. I also believe hunters should stand together. Change is coming....dove season is an example......and we may at some point see a season on sandhills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Long Point is only one area in the province, folks there are welcome to their view but there are many other areas that have a perspective on this issue. The sun does not rise and set in Long Point only. There are many areas that are developing a population.

Why would we consider the input from a 'major hunting club'?

I think there are a few people here who have a well grounded perspective. I also believe hunters should stand together. Change is coming....dove season is an example......and we may at some point see a season on sandhills.

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long point just a example, rondeau bay, ofah, DU, delta, friends of hullet, cws because most people don't worry about a thread on a stupid forum. So get a real perspective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt86

The majority of residents in the long point area and hunters are strongly against a swan hunt, this is where a good majority, people have been against it for 10 years or how ever long he has been pushing this

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt86

, dose he have any support from any major hunting clubs or organization?
a few people on the internet that have zero clue about the real situation where the majority of the hunting will take place simply don't know what your talking about and calling people old fools from a keyboard show how much of a joke you are. and have no facts on the situation other then oh there is lots of swans I seen a pair in Stratford one fall. in long point theres hundreds of people watching the swans so be that many city people watching you shoot them and fact is trumpeters will die and the people don't want that down there, cause its gunna start a storm

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Thanks Matt for trying to help set this situation straight!

dose he have any support from any major hunting clubs or organization?

From what I understand from the phone conversations that I have had with people involved [no names will be mentioned] at both D.u. and Delta Waterfowl, there is no support there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt86

long point just a example, rondeau bay, ofah, DU, delta, friends of hullet, cws because most people don't worry about a thread on a stupid forum. So get a real perspective.

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A stupid forum....nice comment. I do have a real perspective as do a number of others here, it appears you are very unaccepting if someone voices an opinion .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

A stupid forum....nice comment. I do have a real perspective as do a number of others here, it appears you are very unaccepting if someone voices an opinion .

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ive sat on many of meeting with top biologist from this country and listen to this very topic for years and always has the same out come and ending. I don't care if there is a hunt one way or another. Because for the most part I know the answer. Because it hasn't change since day one. The money this guys is offering it should have happened. You get the right people behind this and the right organization and we would have been shooting swans years ago. All politics like getting anything else passed. and knowing the right people
Most forums on the internet are stupid this one defiantly is, its the truth sorry if you see the other way cause you think your right about the swans and you are wrong about that to, done with this swan thing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Well there are Tundra Swans in Ontario, so whats the problem. The Identification excuse is crap you do know that. On your reasoning we should pretty much ban hunting.

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There were once Passenger Pigeons in Ontario too... that is until we (humans) hunted then to extinction.

What we are talking about is protecting a species that is at risk in Ontario, that is the Trumpeter Swan. The debate is not about hunting Tundra Swans, it is about protecting Trumpeter swans, can we guarantee that they will not be shot? No, even Buddy Boy says there will be incidental kills. If Delta, DU, OFAH, and CWF all say the population of Trumpeters in Ontario is too much oat risk then so be it. I trust their opinion. IF there is ever a season, I would definitely be up for hunting them but; like others, if I want to hunt them, I will have to travel... I will be shortly, to Manitoba for Sandhills!

Should duck hunting be banned or mayby no taking Mallards which look almost like Blacks. How many incidental kills.

I think there was a suggestion of people having to take some sort of course and even then the hunt would be limited.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doug

There were once Passenger Pigeons in Ontario too... that is until we (humans) hunted then to extinction.

What we are talking about is protecting a species that is at risk in Ontario, that is the Trumpeter Swan. The debate is not about hunting Tundra Swans, it is about protecting Trumpeter swans, can we guarantee that they will not be shot? No, even Buddy Boy says there will be incidental kills. If Delta, DU, OFAH, and CWF all say the population of Trumpeters in Ontario is too much oat risk then so be it. I trust their opinion. IF there is ever a season, I would definitely be up for hunting them but; like others, if I want to hunt them, I will have to travel... I will be shortly, to Manitoba for Sandhills!

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Should duck hunting be banned or mayby no taking Mallards which look almost like Blacks. How many incidental kills.

I think there was a suggestion of people having to take some sort of course and even then the hunt would be limited.

---

Going by what you are saying, either get your eyes tested , or take a duck identification course.
As for a Tundra Swan hunt, forget it , "it is not going to happen " .

The main issue here is " preserving the Trumpeter Swan which was extirpated from Eastern Canada over 200 years ago "
Local extinction or extirpation is the condition of a species (or other taxon) that ceases to exist in the chosen geographic area of study, though it still exists elsewhere. Local extinctions are contrasted with global extinctions.

What is it that you do not understand about extirpation ?

Hello Guys,

I have just spent an hour reviewing the recent postings.

Jaycee: I understand your position ... enough said. However should the truth be known to the others then they would know that you have a very personal grudge against me based upon the private messages that you have send to me in the past as I have them in my file. For your information as well as for those who may have believed your latest rant ... the last Trumpeter Swan that was legally harvested in Ontario was at Long Point in 1886. The Trumperter Swan was not extirpated from Ontario over 200 years ago as you have claimed in post 78.

Matt 86: I suspect that you are the former "Donald 86" that posted those hateful messages about me on the previous Long Point Waterfowlers' Association (LPWA) web site "Channel 68" that the moderator removed and then banned you from posting comments in the future. If I am wrong about this then I will retract this post. You know that 20% of the LPWA members responded to my Tundra Swan survey at our Annual General Meeting in April of 2011 and that 85% of them fully supported my Tundra Swan proposal and that the other 15% partially supported my proposal.

A few other points:

1) I have invested $210,000.00 into my Charitable Foundation to support this Tundra Swan proposal and I currently have about $30,000.00 of earned income available for grants. I will elaborate upon these funds next week.

2) I have recently contacted several "waterfowl" and wildlife organizations about this issue and I have requested a response from them by November 01, 2017. The Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation has advised me that they have supported a limited (tag only) Tundra Swan season for the last few years based upon the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) Tundra Swan Season Assessment that was conducted between April of 2011 and August of 2013 following the submission of my Tundra Swan proposal in October of 2010.

3) The CWS is currently revising the Migratory Birds Regulations that will include a mechanism that will permit a limited (tag only) season on migratory game birds.

4) Please note that the Trumpeter Swan is NOT an "endangered" species and is NOT a "protected" species as Jaycee has claimed in post 56.

5) Please note that the continental Trumpeter Swan population has nearly doubled every ten years since the 1970s.

6) Please note that the Trumpeter Swan is a migratory game bird and the hunting of them is permitted under the "Migratory Bird Treaty" with the United States.

7) Please note that the interior Trumpeter Swan population (includes the Ontario population) increased by 115% over a five year period as noted in the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment.

8) Please note that the term "waterfowl" includes ducks, geese and swans.

Have a wonderful weekend and a safe "opening day" if you go out.

Jerome

Well BuddyBoy, Tundra Swan aka Jerome Ketchum, Please note! it's not going to happen , the Tundra Swan Hunt , here in Ontario.

What I have posted re the Trumpeter Swans, came from various articles posted by the people involved in breeding them, now you are telling me/us that these people have been lying to us and everyone that can read, I also have been in touch with a few by phone , and you again are saying that I have been lied to.
Some where , someone is either outright lying or really stretching facts.

You mention my Personal Messages, I always thought that Personal Messages were just that , "Personal "'
What I have found out Is that you , yourself have caused a lot of grief towards others and have Pizzzed off a lot of people , and therefore there is next to no support for your proposal .
Have a good day !

Rarely do I see someone so spiteful as some on here.

Jerome thank you for your efforts.

Some people on here would rather see hunting shut down forever.

Quote:

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For your information as well as for those who may have believed your latest rant ... the last Trumpeter Swan that was legally harvested in Ontario was at Long Point in 1886. The Trumperter Swan was not extirpated from Ontario over 200 years ago as you have claimed in post 78.

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To counter your statement check out this link;https://www.wyemarsh.com/swans
From this link; Swans
Originally native to Ontario, the Trumpeter swan's extirpation from eastern Canada over 200 years ago was primarily due to hunting pressure and habitat loss.

Biologist Harry Lumsden began a provincial reintroduction program in the early 1980's to re-establish the Trumpeter swan in its former habitat and range.

WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH???

Another link;www.thestar.com/news/ontario/2009/03/29/trumpeter_swans_making_a_comeback_in_ontario.html
From this link;Trumpeter swans making a comeback in Ontario
After disappearing from the the province in the 1880s, North America's largest waterfowl is making a comeback in Ontario.

Link;https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1108205954.htm


From this link;Trumpeter Swans Re-established In Ontario, Canada
Date:
November 16, 2007
Source:
Wye Marsh Wildlife Centre
Summary:
Originally native to Ontario, the trumpeter swan disappeared from Eastern Canada early in the 20th century. Restoration efforts were initiated in the early 1980's to reintroduce the trumpeter swan to its former range. Through conservation efforts the Ontario population has now reached 1000, with at least 131 breeding pairs, and the future looks bright.

Buddy Boy ! you claim they were not extirpated yet 3 different articles claim that they were. Where is the truth ??? , and there are more articles , if you want to follow them up.

From an older article by OFAH ;https://www.ofah.org/2003/03/o-f-a-h...umpeter-swans/

http://onnaturemagazine.com/wp-conte...mmer-swans.pdf
From the above link,
By the late 1880's , The last Trumpeter Swan had been killed in Ontario.
Since 1916 this species has been Protected in all parts of Canada, the U.S. and Mexico under the Migratory Birds Convention Act.. but the legislation came too late.
The original tens of thousands of Trumpeters native to Canada had been reduced to an estimated 380 by 1981 concentrated in the western provinces.

http://www.trumpeterswancoalition.co...ter-swans.html
From the above;[COLOR=#D19852]About Trumpeter Swans[COLOR=#000000][COLOR=#D19852][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333][/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]The largest swan in the world, the Trumpeter Swan, is native to North America.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]Once hundreds of thousands of pairs of these birds nested in the northern areas of Canada and the U.S. in the summer and then migrated to warm southern U.S. marshes for the winter. [/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]With the arrival of Europeans, these birds became widely hunted. Valued for their beautiful feathers, their meat and even for their feet which were used to make ladies’ purses, they began to die out. In Ontario, the last Trumpeter was shot by a hunter in Long Point in 1886. By 1935, only 69 Trumpeters were counted in all of North America. It looked like these beautiful birds were about to join the long list of species that had been hunted to extinction but then there were two lucky breaks: a previously unknown flock was discovered in Alaska and people started to realize these birds must be protected. Thus a movement was born to save this species and it’s habitat and to try and reintroduce it to areas where it had been wiped out by hunting.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]In the U.S., citizens led the way and governments followed. Hunting was banned and habitat was protected but in Ontario it seemed the Trumpeters were gone for good.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333][/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#ff9900]A Second Chance[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]In 1982, retired Ministry of Natural Resources biologist Harry Lumsden made it his mission to bring the Trumpeter’s back to Ontario.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]He was able to get eggs from northern Alberta and Alaska and convince some Ontario landowners to help raise the resulting young cyngets. Over time, enough were raised that they could be released into the wild. [/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]Slowly over many years, these birds began to spread out and reestablish their [FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]territory.[/FONT][/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]Today, after 30 years of efforts to bring back the Trumpeters their population in Ontario numbers just over 800 birds. There are several reasons why their population remains low. Many Trumpeters have been lost due to lead poisoning that they get from accidently ingesting lead shot and fishing lures while feeding in marshes. Others are lost to collisions with powerlines and occasionally some are shot by hunters although it is illegal to do so.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]Habitat loss, especially of wintering areas, is also greatly impacting their restoration. [/FONT]

Hello Jaycee,

Thank you for providing all that documentation for us. However please note the following:

1) I stated that the Trumpeter Swan was not extirpated from Ontario over 200 years ago but I did not say that the Trumpeter Swan was not extirpated. The Province of Ontario is considered Central Canada and your first reference stated Eastern Canada. Your second reference stated "the 1880s" less than 140 years ago. Your third reference stated Eastern Canada and "early in the 20th century" about 100 years ago.

2) I stated the the last Trumpeter Swan that was legally harvested in Ontario was at Long Point in 1886 and this statement was confirmed by your fourth reference which stated "late 1980s" and by your fifth reference which specifically stated "Long Point in 1886".

3) The fourth reference indicated that the Trumpeter Swan was protected in 1916. Actually all swans were "protected" in 1916 until 1961 when the United States started a swan season for the Western Population of Tundra Swans, 1983 when the United States started a swan season for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans and 1995 when the United States started a "General Swan Season" out west that included an incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans.

4) The CWS has stated in their Tundra Swan Season Assessment that an incidental harvest of a limited number of Trumpeter Swans will not be detrimental to the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans ... especially considering a 115% increase in a 5 year period.

My comments were for the most part from the appropriate Management Plans for the two (2) populations of Tundra Swans and the Management Plan for the Trumpeter Swan population (with three sub-populations) with reference to the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

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3) The fourth reference indicated that the Trumpeter Swan was protected in 1916. Actually all swans were "protected" in 1916 until 1961 when the United States started a swan season for the Western Population of Tundra Swans, 1983 when the United States started a swan season for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans and 1995 when the United States started a "General Swan Season" out west that included an incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans.

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Why do you keep referencing other jurisdictions? The U.S. in this post, and Saskatchewan in another post , we are dealing here with the Ontario population , non other .
You try to keep fogging the main issue hoping others will fall blindly along into your path .

Say "Goodnight ".

I am done with this BS on here, but I will say that Jerome's argument is a lot stronger than Jaycee's........

I don't get why you are so against this Jaycee. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. I feel its just out of spite for Jerome. If its personal, keep it that way, we don't need to read it here.

I am very interested in actual FACTS, not whining about ID'ing a bird that is very easily ID'd.....

S.

Hello Guys,

The migratory game birds (Trumpeter Swan and Tundra Swan) that we are discussing on this thread are a shared resource between Canada and the United States. Furthermore both species are managed under their appropriate Management Plans that are joint agreements between our two (2) countries.

Although there is an "Ontario Population" of Trumpeter Swans it is part of the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans ... one of three (3) sub-populations that form the Continental Population. I will post some figures regarding these three (3) sub-populations later next week.

There is no "Ontario Population" of Tundra Swans as the birds that we see are migratory birds from the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

I generally don't post to any forum, I am more interested in being out there hunting waterfowl as that is all I do it is my passion. Though I would find it amusing to see my retriever return a swan to hand, I do not support a tundra swan hunt at all. Though I believe it would be sustainable, I thing in the long run it would be something the non-hunting public would not support and though I do not agree with non hunting people's view of hunting, it is the "public" in general that has neither a positive nor negative view of hunting that forms the majority of opinion that matters when your trying to open areas to hunting or hunting on sunday etc, etc..
Now for as long as I can remember I have gone to the Aylmer wildlife area every day in the spring and viewed the tundra swan migration. It is the closest you will get to tundra swans anywhere in Ontario. Though I do view the swans I am mainly interested in viewing the geese, looking for legs bands as this is what I do every other day of the year. People all over Ontario come there to view them, bus loads of people. Every year when I am standing in the viewing stand the subject of swan hunting comes up in various forms. I can say this, in general the view of hunting swans is very negative from the non hunting public, the anti-hunting public, and from the general hunting public. I have had many conversations as I don't hide the fact I hunt waterfowl and they are always friendly and I not going to go into the conversations but in short I think it would hurt the public's view of hunting. Though it is easy to say who cares, it is the majority that will decide hunting's future and I don't see a swan hunt being a positive.
It would be limited to a tag, shoot one bird and your done for the season. I would bet it would spike and decline in popularity. I think it is disingenuous to say hunters could safely identify tundra swans over trumpeter swans under hunting conditions. Its not that easy to correctly identify them, I am sorry but that is true. It takes an expert. So there would be trumpeters shot, though it would probably not negatively in pact them in the long run, the perception in the publics eye would be negative towards hunting.
So that is what I have to say, I hope people take it for what it is my humble view of things. I love viewing waterfowl, I do it everyday of my life, I hunt them everyday I can ( 14 waterfowl hunts this season already) Its just I can't see it being a positive to my waterfowl hunting future therefore I am against it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honker220

I generally don't post to any forum, I am more interested in being out there hunting waterfowl as that is all I do it is my passion. Though I would find it amusing to see my retriever return a swan to hand, I do not support a tundra swan hunt at all. Though I believe it would be sustainable, I thing in the long run it would be something the non-hunting public would not support and though I do not agree with non hunting people's view of hunting, it is the "public" in general that has neither a positive nor negative view of hunting that forms the majority of opinion that matters when your trying to open areas to hunting or hunting on sunday etc, etc..
Now for as long as I can remember I have gone to the Aylmer wildlife area every day in the spring and viewed the tundra swan migration. It is the closest you will get to tundra swans anywhere in Ontario. Though I do view the swans I am mainly interested in viewing the geese, looking for legs bands as this is what I do every other day of the year. People all over Ontario come there to view them, bus loads of people. Every year when I am standing in the viewing stand the subject of swan hunting comes up in various forms. I can say this, in general the view of hunting swans is very negative from the non hunting public, the anti-hunting public, and from the general hunting public. I have had many conversations as I don't hide the fact I hunt waterfowl and they are always friendly and I not going to go into the conversations but in short I think it would hurt the public's view of hunting. Though it is easy to say who cares, it is the majority that will decide hunting's future and I don't see a swan hunt being a positive.
It would be limited to a tag, shoot one bird and your done for the season. I would bet it would spike and decline in popularity. I think it is disingenuous to say hunters could safely identify tundra swans over trumpeter swans under hunting conditions. Its not that easy to correctly identify them, I am sorry but that is true. It takes an expert. So there would be trumpeters shot, though it would probably not negatively in pact them in the long run, the perception in the publics eye would be negative towards hunting.
So that is what I have to say, I hope people take it for what it is my humble view of things. I love viewing waterfowl, I do it everyday of my life, I hunt them everyday I can ( 14 waterfowl hunts this season already) Its just I can't see it being a positive to my waterfowl hunting future therefore I am against it.

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Honker ! great post very thoughtful , thank you for not being short sighted or tunnel visioned on this subject.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sinker

I am done with this BS on here, but I will say that Jerome's argument is a lot stronger than Jaycee's........

I don't get why you are so against this Jaycee. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. I feel its just out of spite for Jerome. If its personal, keep it that way, we don't need to read it here.

I am very interested in actual FACTS, not whining about ID'ing a bird that is very easily ID'd.....

S.

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Absolutely no spite intended, and if it was personal , I would send anything like that via PM.

It seems very obvious that you have not read any of the info from the links that were provided, info. from experts in the field that are raising Trumperters here in Ontario, bringing them back from exterpitation, and from biologists, [experts] that I believe would not publish falsehoods.

As for myself, I am just being pragmatic.

prag·mat·ic
praɡˈmadik/Submit
adjective
dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Hello Honker 220,

Thank you for posting your thoughts on this topic.

Please consider that the same concerns were expressed back in 1982 when the CWS and the MNR introduced a limited (two week) Canada Goose season in southwestern Ontario (Cambridge Area) with a bag limit of one (1) goose per day.

You have a Canada Goose season today because of that introduction.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Comparing Canada geese ( and Canada goose hunting

Hello Honker 220,

If you are questioning me about comparing the two species of waterfowl then "yes" I am comparing them because back then there were individuals who stated that the Canada Goose was "endangered", "protected" and our "national bird" none of which were true.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

I actually meant to delete as I wasn't going to reply, I had said what I had to say, but my computer kept freezing and I hit submit by mistake, sorry for that. However since you were so interested in replying. There are many people to this day who think those things about geese. Where we are in Ontario with goose hunting and goose seasons is more than just the CWS and MNR decided to give us a season it is much more complicated than that., but I am not going to discuss. Most people who don't hunt aren't informed but generally don't have a negative opinion of hunting. I work with many such individuals. We don't have a right to hunt, it is something we are allowed to do by legislation. I hunt several locations where people have no problem with me shooting the geese but do not allow me to shoot the ducks. I am fine with that it is their choice, I don't question it. These same land owners would probably not be impressed if people wanted to shoot swans if it was legal. I don't think everything needs to be shot, because we can if its sustainable. We really have to question ourselves if that is the case. To win a battle (ie we get a swan hunt) we may loose much more in the long run, that being the general non-hunting publics view of hunting. I have a bucket list I would like to do some day with regards to waterfowl hunting, so do some of the people I occasionally hunt with, on no one's list is a swan hunt. So I only originally posted because I have viewed this on going swan debate for awhile. The identification thing under hunting conditions of tundra and trumpeter swans is not possible, you know this too. We have a breeding program in this province of people dedicated to bringing back the trumpeter swan, that should be respected. Many more people view the tundra swan migration in the spring in Aylmer to the point I am amazed by the numbers that come from all over year after year. So what would be gained by some people getting a tag to shoot one swan? Not much in the bigger picture. Also you have contacted many people in your quest to get a swan hunt. You must by now know their personal opinion, you do not state them. Is it because it is not positive? I don't expect you to change your view, people with an agenda usually don't but I think it will do more harm with the regards to the publics view of waterfowl hunting in Ontario than good. I hope I haven't offended you or for that any of my fellow waterfowl hunters who support your view but I haven't heard anything to really state why we must hunt them again because it would not benefit hunting in the long run in Ontario.










I don't expect you to change your view, people with an agenda usually don't but I think it will do more to harm the publics view of waterfowl hunting in ontario











, but I am not going to discuss. Most people who don't hunt aren't informed but generally don't have a negative opinion of hunting. I work with many such individuals. We don't have a right to hunt, it is something we are allowed to do by legislation. I hunt several locations where people have no problem with me shooting the geese but do not allow me to shoot the ducks. I am fine with that it is their choice, I don't question it. These same land owners

[QUOTE=honker220;1037743]I actually meant to delete as I wasn't going to reply, I had said what I had to say, but my computer kept freezing and I hit submit by mistake, sorry for that. However since you were so interested in replying. There are many people to this day who think those things about geese. Where we are in Ontario with goose hunting and goose seasons is more than just the CWS and MNR decided to give us a season it is much more complicated than that., but I am not going to discuss. Most people who don't hunt aren't informed but generally don't have a negative opinion of hunting. I work with many such individuals. We don't have a right to hunt, it is something we are allowed to do by legislation. I hunt several locations where people have no problem with me shooting the geese but do not allow me to shoot the ducks. I am fine with that it is their choice, I don't question it. These same land owners would probably not be impressed if people wanted to shoot swans if it was legal. I don't think everything needs to be shot, because we can if its sustainable. We really have to question ourselves if that is the case. To win a battle (ie we get a swan hunt) we may loose much more in the long run, that being the general non-hunting publics view of hunting. I have a bucket list I would like to do some day with regards to waterfowl hunting, so do some of the people I occasionally hunt with, on no one's list is a swan hunt. So I only originally posted because I have viewed this on going swan debate for awhile. The identification thing under hunting conditions of tundra and trumpeter swans is not possible, you know this too. We have a breeding program in this province of people dedicated to bringing back the trumpeter swan, that should be respected. Many more people view the tundra swan migration in the spring in Aylmer to the point I am amazed by the numbers that come from all over year after year. So what would be gained by some people getting a tag to shoot one swan? Not much in the bigger picture. Also you have contacted many people in your quest to get a swan hunt. You must by now know their personal opinion, you do not state them. Is it because it is not positive? I don't expect you to change your view, people with an agenda usually don't but I think it will do more harm with the regards to the publics view of waterfowl hunting in Ontario than good. I hope I haven't offended you or for that any of my fellow waterfowl hunters who support your view but I haven't heard anything to really state why we must hunt them again because it would not benefit hunting in the long run in Ontario


A very well thought out and written post, :goodstuff::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: it express's the feelings of many people including "hunters " that I have spoken with.
We are not dealing with chickens, but with birds that people call "beautiful, majestic " and just love to watch them and take pictures. A lot of these people drive many miles to enjoy seeing these birds.

Here is an interesting article from a while back by Harold Duebbert, waterfowl biologist, on his swan hunt in North DAttachment 35871Attachment 35872akota.

Hello Guys,

I have two (2) comments:

1) Honker 220:

I respect your opinion and your right to express it in the manner that you have done so. I have prepared a letter, a new revised Tundra Swan Fact Sheet and a response to several comments that have been posted on this thread. I hope to be able to post them on a new thread on Thanksgiving while I am at my brother's place since I can transfer my work onto his computer and then post them on this forum.

2) Grouse Guy:

That was a great article that you posted ... thank you. The Eastern Population of Tundra Swans was 100,000 in 2010 (25% over the management goal of 80,000) when I submitted my proposal in October of 2010. The Western Population of Tundra Swans was 80,000 in 2010 (33% over the management goal of 60,000). Although the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans continues to increase slowly the Western Population of Tundra Swans is now over 100,000 (66% over the management goal of 60,000).

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

PS Please see my next post regarding the Trumpeter Swan population.

Hello Guys,

I have prepared a Trumpeter Swan Fact Sheet that I will try to post on a new separate thread next week. However here is the part regarding the 2015 survey.

The results of the rangewide (Continental Population) survey of Trumpeter Swans for 2015 are 63,016 "white swans" not including their cygnets. There are however three (3) sub-populations of Trumpeter Swans:

1) Pacific Coast Population at 24,240 " white swans".

2) Rocky Mountain Population at 11,721 "white swans".

3) Interior Population at 27,055 "white swans".

The Interior Population includes the birds in the Province of Ontario.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Thanks for that info Jerome ... the numbers of Trumpeter swans you give are higher than I thought and good to see they made that good a comeback. In the Quinte area (where I am located on the waterfront, and do most of my fall hunting) I have seen hundreds of Tundra swans each of the last three falls, many more than before 5 years ago ... last year I did identify a pair of what I expect were Trumpeters, the first I remember seeing in this area. And of course, the mute swan number here seem to be increasing exponentially, but they are here all year round, breed here and are very aggressive and protective of young, so they will continue to increase I expect ... the Tundra swans I only see here for a short time during migration.

Regardless of a number of the comments here, I support the Tundra swan limited tag season, and I support the delisting of the mute swan if that ever comes to the table. The Tundra tags are being issued anyway, just to Americans, I think we should claim our portion of the tags in North America.

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Originally Posted by Gadwall

The Tundra tags are being issued anyway, just to Americans, I think we should claim our portion of the tags in North America.

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Exactly!

It should be noted for trumpeter swan fact sheets, though Jerome's population numbers are accurate, he fails to mention one interesting fact that should be included. Ontario's re-introduced population of trumpeter swans is approximately only 1000 birds. Their populations is not growing rapidly it has slowed. It has not expanded into all of its former past range in Ontario. Their main current source of death is lead poisoning (from shot). Also due to the way the were re- introduced they are for the most part non- migratory which means the birds that would accidently be killed during a limited tag season on tundra swans in Ontario would be our population not the greater interior population. Do most of the waterfowlers on this site realize this? Many of the US states that have trumpeter swan populations that number in the thousands, big difference than ours. Another interesting fact is that of the marked birds that have crossed into the United States, half of them are never seen again. Since I do not know why they are not seen again I will not state something miss leading. So how many out of this small population would be ok to be accidently killed each year? Do you think the general public would be ok with birds be killed out of a small population of trumpeters in Ontario? Since most people including hunters do not know this fact. Having a tundra swan season in Ontario is very complicated. Why not put the resources you have to build a trumpeter swan population in Ontario to a point where it would be very less relevant if they accidently got shot it would not factor much into anything. That's something hunters could be proud of before they ever get a tundra swan season.

Hello Honker 220,

I recall that the Ontario Trumpeter Swan population in 2010 was about 600 birds and now (according to you) are about 1000 birds ... a 66% increase from only five (5) years ago.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Why no talk on hunting the Mute Swans??? they are an invasive species

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Originally Posted by Rodbender

Why no talk on hunting the Mute Swans??? they are an invasive species

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The funny part of that is that they are owned by the Queen of England. She would have to allow it. Don't think it would be hard to get permission, but Canada has to ask.

Hello Rod Bender,

The Mute Swan was placed on the List of Protected Species by mistake many years ago as the Mute Swan is not native to North America and only species that are native to North America are to be on it.

Although the Mute Swan is an "invasive species" and should be "eliminated" where possible the CWS and MNRF are not pushing this issue.

I did submit a proposal to delist the Mute Swan from the List of Protected Species in October of 2010 following consultation with Dr. Scott Petrie earlier in the year.

He has advocated the elimination of this species in several articles that he has written.

Perhaps the OFAH should be pushing this issue forward.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Hello Guys,

I just received the following update from The Trumpeter Swan Society regarding the expansion to the Tundra Swan hunting opportunities in the United States.

Please submit an e-mail or a letter to Ms. Dawn Sucee (Fish and Wildlife Biologist, OFAH) indicating your support for a Tundra Swan season in Ontario if you have not already done so.

Sorry ... unable to cut and paste the update at this time ... will get some assistance and try again later.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Hello Guys,

Here is the update. Please read my thread "Trumpeter Swan Population Report" so that you will understand the rationale for the changes.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

Proposed changes to Tundra Swan hunts will impact Trumpeter Swans

In the Central and Atlantic Flyways, Tundra Swans of the Eastern Population are currently hunted through a permit system in five states (Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, North Carolina, and Virginia). Hunters find it difficult to distinguish a Tundra Swan from a Trumpeter Swan. In those states, any hunter who mistakenly shoots a Trumpeter Swan during the Tundra Swan season is violating the law by taking a species for which no hunting season has been authorized.

The USFWS proposal includes the option allowing the current five states in those two Flyways to not penalize hunters for mistakenly shooting a Trumpeter Swan in the Tundra Swan hunt.

The proposal would also allow for states in the Central, Mississippi and Atlantic Flyways, where no Tundra Swan hunting is currently allowed, to open a future Tundra Swan season under certain conditions, with accidental take of Trumpeter Swans allowed without hunter penalty. New swan hunt proposals could include states such as Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan and Ohio that have restored Trumpeter Swans, and also have Tundra Swans migrating through in the fall to their wintering grounds on the East Coast. Limiting the total allowable take of Trumpeter Swans is also being considered for existing and new proposed hunts in those Flyways.

Comments can be electronically submitted here to the USFWS. Any comment submitted should be attributed to you personally, rather than being offered as representing TTSS. The Society has already submitted comment.

If you prefer to mail your comments: Public Comments Processing, Attn: FWS-HQ-MB-2017-0028; Division of Policy, Performance, and Management Programs; U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, MS: BPHC; 5275 Leesburg Pike, Falls Church, VA 22041