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My beagle is a very gentle and loving house dog that lives to run rabbits and deer. She us very well behaved with most commands. The problem I have is at home or at camp she is over protection of the area I am staying in. If any other dog cones near she turns inside out and us gone after then like a bullet. She just chasing them away from her area. Never bite just loud mouth. Would a ecollar work in this case.
Depends. How is she on the lease. Does she calm down? Does she respond to commands? If so may help. Without going overly technical view the e collar as an extension of the lease. Now if she is wild on the lease and doesn't listen to you and tries to run off other dogs well you got a bit more basic training to do before you go off lease
E collar won't be the magic bullet for the problem. use a long line first, get the issue under control on leash first.
With the dog on leash, correct her for looking at dogs. Have friends walk their dogs past at 10 yards, or 1000 yards, whatever it takes to get her to look, but not chase the dogs. Once you get her to stop looking without you saying anything, your friends can walk closer. Repeat until she is steady at whatever distance you want. She may never jump for joy and play with the other dogs, but she will learn you have the situation under control and she can relax.
Use of an e-collar for aggression problems is not recommended.
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So you don't want her chasing. I think an e collar would work , but timing would be everything. Soon as you see the dog alert- correct!
As Welsh said, you don't want to use an e collar when two dogs go at it as one dog might think the other dog is giving him the correction, and the fight would be really on.
I have a JRT that likes ( used to like) intimidating/ attacking the old setter. I used the e collar to end that. Soon as I saw the JRT getting that "look" - I corrected at a fairly high level.! Took a few times , but that ended that. One could say that might have increased the JRT's anger , but it never did.
Put her on a leash when you see other dogs coming around your property. If/when she goes off on the dogs, give her some sort of verbal warning (quiet, no, leave it); if she doesn't heed your verbal warning give her a correction with a quick but sharp tug on her leash and put her into a controlled position (a sit or down). When she does heed your warning and follows your command, mark and praise her actions (treats, verbal confirmation, a pet on the head). You don't need to overdo it with the verbal and physical correction, especially for a dog of her size, but she should know when you approve and disapprove of her behavior. Working on basic commands like sit, stay and name recognition will pay great dividends in keeping the dog's attention when high distraction situations (like other dogs) come about.
I wouldn't recommend an e-collar for barking problems, unless it was a last resort and you had gotten some training on how to employ such a device. An e-collar is not a cure-all for dog problems. Rather it should be viewed as an imaginary leash in that the owner is able to administer corrections from afar if the dog is disobedient or not paying attention to commands. Those corrections need to be appropriately metered and timed otherwise it will only serve to stress out the dog.
An e collar is one of several strategies which can be used to address this issue or others.
Before you consider a collar do some reading specifically about collar conditioning. That is the process of introducing the collar to the dog. This is certainly not meant to strap on and start using.
Teach first
Teach first
Then follow directions on conditioning to known commands. Lots of free sources, check Mike Lardy's web page as an example on how/when to use and especially about 'timing'.
The ecollar is an excellent tool and provides owners with a tool that ranges farther out than just in front of them. Be sure the conditioning to commands is used so that a stimulation is not 'all of a sudden..like a lightening bolt'
This tool can be an excellent choice in dealing with your issues and reinforcing the basics which I hope you have taught.
E collars are also successfully used to deal with noisy dogs especially when you have a number of them on the truck.
Yes, an ecollar will stop her in her tracks and she will stop chasing off dogs after the 4 or 5th fry.
You should get yourself an ecollar, it will be very useful for you to have training any dog especially a beagle. You will wonder why you hadn't bought one years ago.
Buy one with a long range, don't purchase a 1 mile range, go for 2 miles plus.
Take the advertised range and divide it by 4 to get a reliable consistent range.
You want a reliable unit that will work when you want to it work.
The ecollar is a tool used to reinforce a learned command. If your beagle has been taught to stop on command successfully but chooses to disobey the command and attacks dogs people whatever then as he disobeys you correct. The collar doesn't teach it disciplines for refusal to obey a learned command.
they get collar wise very quickly and don't need correction. My older dog hasn't been corrected in years. He knows if he's wearing it he is best to obey.
Great adviceQuote:
Originally Posted by thunderbelly
We use crates, all dogs, mandatory, never had a problem and we have 10-20 dogs together at a time. Use of a crate will give it a safe place to settle down when not working.
I do not recommend an e-collar for this situation. You need to resolve the issue.
Hey , you're not going to get away with just that. :)
Why do you say that?
any suggestions as to another approach?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
Well...I believe dogs can sense moods/emotions (mood transferals) - not what you are actually thinking per say but your moods and the supporting body language. In a way, this behavior may have been unintentionally elicited.
Some questions at the forefront might be:
- does this dog nudge you for attention or do things that will get him attention?
- does this dog recall reliably or....most of the time?
- did you initially condone this behavior defined as, "...he's just protecting us."?
Dogs can also sense an insecurity in an owner. I'm not here to assign any of this on the OP or his family. I'm just responding to Sharon's request.
In any case, you need to redirect this dog, initially away from the distraction by having fun games that the dog must perform in order to EARN attention (a brief amount of praise). Recall exercises should take place in mixed environs as well as at home so that the dog can be redirected when it gets unruly, followed by that fun game where everyone laughs and enjoys the experience. The OP MUST have leash and command control away from the issue mixed in with the structured fun times (stimulation that the owner controls) where the dog earns attention.
Petting and treating a dog for inhaling/exhaling can contribute to this behavior as well as many others. Beyond this, a behavior specialist could resolve the problem however I stand by my original comment which is, discipline/e-collar etc. is exactly NOT what you want to do. I don't believe it will address the underlying issue. Furthermore, if the OP perceives it to have resolved this issue, I expect another problem will manifest itself, then another, then another....
Excellent response Ugo ! I feel exactly the same way based on my experience with working dogs mainly high energy Siberian Huskies out of working lines as well as Alaskan Huskies. Many years ago when I had winters off I had the opportunity to work with sled dogs that were considered not trainable, uncooperative and a menace to the team. I found in most cases it was the owner(pack leader) was the cause based on what you described above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
My approach has always been a very calm and in most cases after starting from scratch, gaining the dogs trust , having the dog feel secure and then add (correct timing) them to the team. About 90% of the time I was able to get them working in the team without any issues.
However my Springer Spaniel was trained using an e-collar by a pro-trainer and if I could do it over again would of gone another route. My Labrador Retriever I recently trained myself without using an e-collar. I was able to apply my methods(experience) along with assistance from other trainers who do not use the e-collar method for upland and duck hunting. It probably took me a little longer to get her where she should be (maybe not) but is well worth the time spent with her creating that special bond we have. I do believe temperament (genetic) is a big part of the equation that can either speed or slow the process down. I am not saying that an e-collar is a bad tool to correct particular issues but the owner leader of the pack should take a good hard look at what they may be doing to create the issue first. Nothing wrong with starting over from the beginning as long as the entire family pack is on board with a set of ground rules.
Sounds like your dog is assuming the role of the leader and claiming ownership of you. If you step up and assume the leadership role most of this will probably go away. If this has been going on for a long time it will probably never completely go away but it can be managed.
Start with simple things like putting the food dish in front of your dog and making them wait to eat. Make sure you always go through the door/gate first. If you are letting your dog out, open the door and make them wait before going out. If the dog is lying in the middle of the floor in a room you are passing through, go through the dog and make them move. Start to take ownership of the things in your house and anything the dog thinks is theirs. The dogs toys are your toys, you are just letting the dog use them. Don't let the dog step on your foot or lean against you, claim your personal space. Make them wait and only come on the couch when asked. There are countless easy and simple things you can do to let the dog know that you are the leader. These are things everyone in your family should be doing with the dog, he is the lowest member in your pack.
An e-collar will not fix this and if you allow this to continue she could easily start doing it to humans.
To the Op, you have a problem that has developed and you've inquired about a strategy....an e collar to deal with your problem. You've received some reasonable responses. The real problem you have is that you asked the wrong question.......
The question that should have been asked is what approach do I take to attempt to resolve the current issue I have??
That question will give you some alternatives to try that have been stated and there are a number of other actions on your part that can lead to better behaviour on the dog's part. Since the behaviour has become somewhat engrained it will take a concerted effort on your part.
I would return to re teaching the basics, that includes sit(sit means sit!), here, down, no, heal and 'leave it'. The standard in each needs to be between 95-100% for any reliability. Many people talk about teaching 'basic' to their dog but few really understand what that entails, what it looks like and what reliability there is.
If that was my dog he would be put at sit, I'd move him to a 'down' position if I read his body language that he intended to chase after another dog, animal or person and I'd be absolutely ready to enforce that command. Back to yard work to put this stuff in place.
Here's where I differ from the others.....I would use the collar. However my dog would have been through a complete collar condition program such that he understands when there is lack of effort or complete defiance there is repercussions. Note I said to go through a solid basics program that requires C conditioning.
You don't want to introduce the collar without the above being put in place. You don't want to use the collar as a teaching tool as in your situation.
I trained a Field Champion prior to the collar, it was work beyond what most can or are able to do. I have trained one after along with numerous AA dogs who compete at the Open level. The collar is the single most important tool that has come into the arena of dog training. Rex Carr, a retriever trainer laid the basis for the current program most adopt.
A reminder, many will tell you they have trained their dog to a certain level sans collar but not to the high levels the Carr program would take you.
I think you can resolve your problem without a collar and good leg work on your part, however in good hands the collar would be a good choice to correct the behaviour.......guess it's your call but best to link up with a high level retriever(dog) trainer for more guidance.
It has been my experience that using a pro trainer is pretty well the best money spent on my dogs. Especially if you are not retired and have limited time and access to training grounds.
I agree that using a pro is a good option for some (maybe even most) amatuer trainers.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
The mistake I most often see, is an amatuer that spends the money, but doesn't follow through with the commitment.
If I were to use a pro, I would want ton know and understand every aspect of what the pro has taught, and follow through with those lessons.
If you don't have that kind of time, you might be throwing your money away. You also need to be able to pick the right pro. Anyone can hang a shingle.
I just read this whole thread. I wonder how many of the later posters bothered to look at the OP's original problem. He has a Beagle which is overprotective of him and barks at other dogs. Suddenly we are into discussions of e-collars and professional trainers. I would think that a far more sensible approach to this issue is just basic obedience, especially in presence of other dogs. I would suggest just enroll in a local obedience school. (Probably cheaper than a decent e-collar) They are kind of fun, you and your dog will enjoy it and both make new friends. I suspect your dog may have missed some socialization with other dogs as a pup. It is harder to overcome as an adult but not impossible. My wife rescued an 18 month old Rottweiler many years ago that had not been well socialized and had some aggression issues with other dogs. She took it through three levels of obedience training at a local club over a year or so. The change in that dog's attitude and demeanor was unbelievable. She lived a long happy life and had many dog friends after we got her in balance. If my wife could do it with a Rotty I can't imagine a Beagle being a major issue.
I may have misinterpreted the OP's question. I responded to his title: Thread: Guys that use either collars I have a question.
I don't use pinch, choke or spiked collars so I offered my comments re e-collars. I apologize if I misunderstood.
As for "pros" I believe canine behavioural therapists would fall under this category. With an investment there-in comes an expectation.
If the OP choses to address this himself or with the help of a lay-person, I offered suggestions. Perhaps I was out-of-line?
The OP's original question was:
"Would a ecollar work in this case."
I don't think you misinterpreted the question at all Ugo, nothing wrong with any of the suggestions made. The fact that e collar use and the aid of a 'professional' suggestion was made makes sense in a reasonable discussion concerning the issue the OP identified.
I am totally on side with Singlemalt's suggestion about returning to the basics, I said the same. The problem with our suggestion is that many have no idea of what the 'basics' should look like, how to get there and what would the standard should look like. When standards are not upheld then dog behaviour is all over the place and lessons are not learned nor is there any reliability in the dog's performance of a given task.
As I said I definitely would use the collar but I understand and discriminate between Direct and Indirect pressure in it's application. For those who may be interested here's an example:
-dog charges after other dog, handler nicks dog for misbehaviour...this is direct pressure(in the understanding of learning..not as effective like a lightening bolt as far as dog is concerned)
-dog charges after other dog, handler says 'sit', repeats sit and nicks dog....this is indirect pressure( more effective since dog understands the command and dog receives pressure to a known command)
Happy New year to everyone, may your dogs find a way to become better trained.........
Excellent explanation on the difference between using direct and Indirect pressure to address a problem. :o
And I stand by my suggestion of an obedience class. Although I suspect the original poster Dutchhunter has long lost interest in this thread as it has gone so far off topic. His problem is a Beagle which has problems with other dogs in his presence. To me the most logical approach is a structured environment for training basics in the company of other dogs. No need to worry about "what the standard looks like" what is "direct" vs. "indirect" pressure. Just enroll in a good class or obedience club and follow along with the class. The other advantage I have found is that you also do your homework better, with the dog each day, because you know next week you are back in front of the group and you don't want to be the one who shows no progress.
I have done this with all my recent dogs as pups. I then to go on to more and different training specific to a gundog but I have found the basic work in a group environment with other dogs very good for them all. Also don't get so arrogant because you are a "gun dog trainer" you will be always the top of the class. It is both humbling and motivating when the little old lady with the Sheltie starts to show you up. ;)
The dog classes are a good suggestion and for most probably their best bet.
I would make you a bet though that good instructors understand how to maintain standards as well as how pressure, even in it's lowest levels affects learning whether it's you being humbled or the dog and we've all been there at some point.
Agreed. Which is why I think these classes are great for people who are not very experienced or always training a dog. A good instructor sets standards and expectations which are quite achievable but probably higher than most people would set on their own for themselves or their dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Agree on everything you stated singlemalt. Every family/ hunting companion that I have had the pleasure of owning goes through a local obedience class 8 wk to 10wk course and in some cases onto the next level. It makes a world of difference particularly the dog interaction/socialization before and after each class . Each of my children as well as my wife would tag along so that the the entire family would absorb each lesson , how these lessons would transfer over to our everyday dog training and be on the same page.Quote:
Originally Posted by singlemalt
Lots of of good information on Youtube for e-collar training if you feel the need to go that route. Canadian Gundog Supply also has some e-collar training videos on their website for training assistance. I am sure other gundog supply companies online do as well.