Good News!!!!...re: won't pick up duck

So, I managed a few Woodys on the weekend and when I was cleaning them threw one of the tail feather chunks for Tucker. He brought it right back. I did that a few times and then threw the whole duck and he retrieved that as well. Another 10 times with no problems and then a few blinds for good measure. Pretty sure he knows what he needs to do now. It seems it was the frozen duck that was the issue. I go out with him every evening and he seems to have no issues bring the ducks back now. Thanks for all the great tips.

Mark

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Originally Posted by Muzner

So, I managed a few Woodys on the weekend and when I was cleaning them threw one of the tail feather chunks for Tucker. He brought it right back. I did that a few times and then threw the whole duck and he retrieved that as well. Another 10 times with no problems and then a few blinds for good measure. Pretty sure he knows what he needs to do now. It seems it was the frozen duck that was the issue. I go out with him every evening and he seems to have no issues bring the ducks back now. Thanks for all the great tips.

Mark

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Hi Mark,

A few posters in the other thread made a comment about how the dog may not have been force fetched and you said you had not with your previous dog. Above, you said you had success with your current hunting buddy with fresh birds that you got on the weekend and appreciated all the tips everyone suggested. I hope you haven't given up on force fetch training your dog and understand that force fetch training is to ensure the dog reliably performs when you want him to and not when he feels like it. It is easy to pick up fresh wood ducks which are dry in short grass. It is a much different story when the ducks are in the muckiest of swamps and you want him to go get them and that is the the last thing he wants to do.

Dyth

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

Hi Mark,

A few posters in the other thread made a comment about how the dog may not have been force fetched and you said you had not with your previous dog. Above, you said you had success with your current hunting buddy with fresh birds that you got on the weekend and appreciated all the tips everyone suggested. I hope you haven't given up on force fetch training your dog and understand that force fetch training is to ensure the dog reliably performs when you want him to and not when he feels like it. It is easy to pick up fresh wood ducks which are dry in short grass. It is a much different story when the ducks are in the muckiest of swamps and you want him to go get them and that is the the last thing he wants to do.

Dyth

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Depends on the dog.

My current Lab will go until I command "leave it". Doesn't matter the conditions or terrain. I haven't force fetched her at all.

Some dogs need it, others don't.

Force Fetch is very badly understood and most people do not know how to do it or why they are doing it. Therefore because of this many avoid attempting to teach the concept and constantly put up with lack of skilled behaviour on the dog's part.

A famous USA trainer said....'you own what you condone". Nothing could ever be truer in dog training.

The concept of FF is really about a 2 part concept. The first being to teach dogs how to properly hold what they are retrieving. That means no dropping, no crunching, no eating, no running away with bird, no dropping a crippled bird, no refusing to give bird up. None of this is about a 'forced' retrieve if you will. The hold will be a solid hold with no dropping while on the move etc.

The second part of this is to fetch on command, that means pick up bumpers or birds when told to do so. This is not about doing a retrieve, it is about picking up a bird from your hand , the ground or whatever.

So here's what it should look like. Dog sent for retrieve land or water , picks up object, returns to handler and most likely sits to deliver. They are then in the ready position to be sent again.

The force is not about the act of retrieving as much as it is about how the retrieve is done. The REAL underlying purpose of FF is that it is the very first time in the dog's training that he is compelled to do something. We are telling him this is how it must look. This sets the stage for the other sequential training that should take place.

Most dogs go because of inner prey drive but I can gurantee you that can come to and end and it's the discipline of retrieving that takes over.

The interesting thing about FF is that once it's completed dogs continue on almost like it was a natural phenomenon .

There is the odd dog that somehow understands this concept on it's own but that is very rare.

Remember the end result...a clean delivery with no chomping, dropping, rolling, dropping after leaving water and sitting to deliver to handler.

good news, muzner, next time don't overdo it, 10+ retrieves for the first time is a lot.
quit while you're ahead.
no disrespect to kraka or others, but don't feel bad if you don't ff your dog.

This is my second dog. I have been fortunate to have 2 dogs from some of the best breeders and dog handlers around. With Rylie, I started him young...enrolled in a club...did Mcann's...watched videos....and at the end of the day, I said to myself "Do I really want this for him"? To have the "BEST" retriever???? My answer was quite simple. I wanted a dog who would retrieve ducks...not the BS of trials...all the arrogant trainers who think ther dog is the too good for everyone and have no time for the small guy. Rylie was never force fetched and would do anything for me. Both Rylie and Tucker have amazing drive....I have trained Tucker since he was old enough to run...not with ducks but with what I felt was important traits for a dog to have. The basics. I knew that the duck retrieve would come.. I just needed some suggestions on how to do it at his particular stage in the game. I don't want this thread to be misconstrued into a battle of whose right and whose wrong. Everybody does things differently and now that he is retrieving ducks, I have accomplished what I needed to. Thanks again...and if I can post some pics after the opener down here I will be certain to.

Mark

Hey Muzner, glad you found some success with the problem you had. Training dogs to get them to a certain point can be really challenging.

I offered an explanation for FF to help people understand what it really is and whether they wished to follow through with it. He's your dog, up to you to decide how, what and the way he does things. It's really great if he becomes a hunting companion .

I find it interesting though that you seem to have an issue with field trials or those who are involved with them.....the comment about the BS of trials for example....and arrogant trainers, not sure where that fits in all this. If your dog came from some of the best breeders and dog handlers around then why not stay in touch with them so that you can continue to find the best ways to problem solve any issues in training.

Hope you have a good shoot and get lots of opportunities for training.

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Originally Posted by Muzner

This is my second dog. I have been fortunate to have 2 dogs from some of the best breeders and dog handlers around. With Rylie, I started him young...enrolled in a club...did Mcann's...watched videos....and at the end of the day, I said to myself "Do I really want this for him"? To have the "BEST" retriever???? My answer was quite simple. I wanted a dog who would retrieve ducks...not the BS of trials...all the arrogant trainers who think ther dog is the too good for everyone and have no time for the small guy. Rylie was never force fetched and would do anything for me. Both Rylie and Tucker have amazing drive....I have trained Tucker since he was old enough to run...not with ducks but with what I felt was important traits for a dog to have. The basics. I knew that the duck retrieve would come.. I just needed some suggestions on how to do it at his particular stage in the game. I don't want this thread to be misconstrued into a battle of whose right and whose wrong. Everybody does things differently and now that he is retrieving ducks, I have accomplished what I needed to. Thanks again...and if I can post some pics after the opener down here I will be certain to.

Mark

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Sorry you had a bad experience with trialing. I found the pros / amateurs etc VERY inviting and helpful. Anyone who wants to see exceptional dog (pointing breeds or retrievers) work should go to a trial. :)

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Hey Muzner, glad you found some success with the problem you had. Training dogs to get them to a certain point can be really challenging.

I offered an explanation for FF to help people understand what it really is and whether they wished to follow through with it. He's your dog, up to you to decide how, what and the way he does things. It's really great if he becomes a hunting companion .

I find it interesting though that you seem to have an issue with field trials or those who are involved with them.....the comment about the BS of trials for example....and arrogant trainers, not sure where that fits in all this. If your dog came from some of the best breeders and dog handlers around then why not stay in touch with them so that you can continue to find the best ways to problem solve any issues in training.

Hope you have a good shoot and get lots of opportunities for training.

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krakadawn: I just found that if you don't absorb yourself completely in training your dog and are not fully knowledgeable about all the rules and regs, you are shunned...that's all. Maybe just my perception of an isolated experience. With that being said, I did initially have some good help to start my first dog and took some good advice from those in the club. I'm more like a weekend golfer...not a club house member. lolol

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Depends on the dog.

My current Lab will go until I command "leave it". Doesn't matter the conditions or terrain. I haven't force fetched her at all.

Some dogs need it, others don't.

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Agree and had a similar experience. Every dog is different.

Congrats on your step forward, keep the retrieves easy and fun for your dog, end on a possitive note.
Toss me in with the "not impressed with the trial groups", get your dog to work the way you want it too, and enjoy.

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

Congrats on your step forward, keep the retrieves easy and fun for your dog, end on a possitive note.
Toss me in with the "not impressed with the trial groups", get your dog to work the way you want it too, and enjoy.

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Not impressed with this comment.
This is not to say that I disagree with the nature of the comment but there are many 'field trial' groups and divisions within ,that to lay a disparaging comment in general is a gross over generalization to say the least. If you are unhappy with retriever field trial groups, pointing dog trials, flushing stakes, foxhound trials, the beaglers etc then speak to the issue and be specific.

I had to leave the comment incomplete, I feel saying more would derail the thread. I just wanted the original poster to know they are not alone in their sentiment. If someone's dog makes them smile while hunting, that is a good day.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Not impressed with this comment.
This is not to say that I disagree with the nature of the comment but there are many 'field trial' groups and divisions within ,that to lay a disparaging comment in general is a gross over generalization to say the least. If you are unhappy with retriever field trial groups, pointing dog trials, flushing stakes, foxhound trials, the beaglers etc then speak to the issue and be specific.

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Don't forget that there are many types in this world,and some tend to become "elitist " as soon as they join an organization no matter what it is and look down upon others that do not belong.
We have all run into these types , doesn't matter where you go, they are there and unfortunately this puts others off from joining organizations of any type.

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Originally Posted by Muzner

krakadawn: I just found that if you don't absorb yourself completely in training your dog and are not fully knowledgeable about all the rules and regs, you are shunned...that's all. Maybe just my perception of an isolated experience. With that being said, I did initially have some good help to start my first dog and took some good advice from those in the club. I'm more like a weekend golfer...not a club house member. lolol

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

Congrats on your step forward, keep the retrieves easy and fun for your dog, end on a possitive note.
Toss me in with the "not impressed with the trial groups", get your dog to work the way you want it too, and enjoy.

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Being new to the retrieving world, I have come across that as well but for every time I came across an attitude like that, I ran across ten people who genuinely wanted to help me because I am new to the sport and training a working companion (Jaycee, Burlygirl, Kraka, 3blackdogs, Peter Wyckoff (RIP), Ray Bester and a whole lots more). However, I don't run alot of field trials, I mainly spend time with hunt tests and WC's. My dog isn't going to be a grand master hunter, I am fine with that because I don't need a grand master hunter. I hunt on the weekends and if I bag a few ducks, I am happy camper so a highly accomplished dog is wasted on a guy like me.

Having a young family, I train as much as I can. I can't train everyday like some and consequently, Hank isn't as far along as other people who have a more regimented training schedule for their four legged hunting buddies and we have stumbled on some stuff which a quicker paced schedule may not have stumbled on. So I know where you guys are coming from. However, I think you shouldn't paint everyone in the retriever world with the same brush.

Dyth

"Pretty sure he knows what he needs to do now. It seems it was the frozen duck that was the issue."

Funny you say that. Both my pointers and now my lab pup had issues with frozen birds. The moment the bird was thawed out, they seems to snap out of it and pick up the birds with ease.

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Originally Posted by bushcannon

"Pretty sure he knows what he needs to do now. It seems it was the frozen duck that was the issue."

Funny you say that. Both my pointers and now my lab pup had issues with frozen birds. The moment the bird was thawed out, they seems to snap out of it and pick up the birds with ease.

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Not uncommon. Most people wouldn't enjoy holding an ice cube in their teeth. Freezing is just for preserving not for training. Always thaw your birds before working.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Agree and had a similar experience. Every dog is different.

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I agree with YD every dog is different and if you pay attention they will tell you what they need. Years ago I had a very high strung and keen male springer. He was fierce in his determination to go out and find a shot bird but pretty casual about how (sometimes if) he brought it back. I did a version of force fetch with him recommended for upland dogs. As I recall I used a three part article that was in Gundog Magazine back then. The improvement in him was incredible and not just in his retrieving. I think the discipline of going through the FF routine made him realize for the first time I really was the boss and all aspects of his obedience and performance improved. I had similar but less spectacular results with a male Labrador a few years later. However, I did not do it with my current Lab or Working Cocker as they never indicated to me they needed it, and I am quite satisfied with their retrieving. I am currently training a 5 month old Chessie which is going very well. We are not at the FF stage yet but I will let him tell me if he needs it when the time is right. If he does I will do so without hesitation. It is not a lot of fun for either trainer or dog but it does work and it is reassuring to know that it is there as a cure for a lot of common problems if they arise.

Everything I have said here applies to hunting/working dogs only. If you are interested in tests/trials, and there is no reason not to be if you enjoy them, follow the advice of the trainers who participate in them. They know how to succeed in that world.

Excellent post singlemalt !

Good post Singlemalt. What I like is that you were able correct a phase of behaviour of your dog which you did not wish to accept or allow to continue. As I have mentioned previously, FF is about setting the stage for other levels of training which will come. In your case you clearly set the tone of your expectations....well done!

My FT dogs are all FF'd but I'd have done that even if their life was destined to be my hunting companion. I do that as I understand where FF fits into the scheme of learning/teaching stages for them. By the way , all my dogs get regular hunting opportunities.

For interest, you may wish to check Bill Hillman's u-tube video on how he has started FF at an earlier age with almost no pressure with his pups. He has much completed prior to the normal benchmark times. The 'teething' is not an issue with his approach.

FF is certainly not a magical approach to make your dog a better retriever. It certainly cleans up things like dropping before delivery, mouthing birds/bumpers, less hard mouthing and in general makes them a better citizen in the hide. Dogs who return briskly and make clean deliveries are better prepared to be sent again for a subsequent retrieve....hunting or trialing, doesn't matter. The last thing you want to be doing is trying to get clean delivery when other birds require retrieving. Time tends to erode memory for dog and man.

Good luck with the Peake. I know their learning curve can be different but once 'in', usually well retained.

I am aware of Bill Hillman. He was recommended to me as a positive trainer who's methods work well with CBR. I bought his tapes and have been following closely. I will see what I think when I get to the FF. Right now my pup goes out after the dummy or bird with great energy and comes straight back. He sometimes drops the dummy at my feet rather than the delivery to hand I expect. If I can't fix with gentle encouragement I will certainly FF to fix this.

This is my first CBR and I have yet to see the downside. I was looking for a full season dog, calm and relaxed in the boat with a great nose and coat. He seems to be all of these things. He is great in the house and very popular with my wife and grandson due to his calm confident demeanour.