This one makes 18 school shooting so far in 2018, a very sad day in Florida.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/fl...ing/index.html
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This one makes 18 school shooting so far in 2018, a very sad day in Florida.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/fl...ing/index.html
Seventeen kids and teachers dead....17 FFS! What will it take before America figures this stuff out?
After the last mass shooting they interviewed one sherrif who simply said that if everyone was armed, the shooting wouldnt have happened. So I guess Americans still dont have enough guns on their streets. Sone third world countries dont have the problems seen in the states.
Figure what out, precisely? How to stop the shootings? And why is it up to America to figure it out? Has anyone else? What's the answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Could a teacher with a gun have stopped this from being as bad as it turned out to be.???
What is going on between the ears of the Americans that do this sort of thing. It is not just the guns but rather something is tweaking in their brains that is making them do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
So very sad, 18 school shootings in a month and a half, 18.
The worst part of all of this is that there are roughly 8 Million AR-15 type guns in Americians Hands, don't see to many people turning them in and in fact you will probably see sales go up today as people fear tougher gun laws with be coming at some point. As someone said the 2nd amendment was originally Drafted so each person could have 1 musket, maybe they need to go back to that. And as we have seen in the past there will be another one in the short weeks to come. See on Twitter lots of Americians looking to relocate to Canada. Think I read yesterday we have had 3 mass school shootings in the past 30 years.
I don't think another massacre even matters down there anymore. Just another sad news story for a week. Put an armed cop in the school and it won't happen there.
It's so simple to solve the solution. Take away the assault rifles and automatic weapons. With the amount of money the US government wastes it could offer a buy back program but that will never happen because they are so deeply corrupt by the arms manufactures. People say you cant touch the 2nd amendment, yes you can it's called a amendment. If you couldn't then slavery and prohibition would still be the law
AR15's are not the cause. Hall monitors with guns aren't the solution. It's a people problem. Educate them.
Banning the rifles isn't the solution. "Controlling" who gets to own them would help. Our PAL and RPAL system seems to work well. But you will never eliminate the Marc Lepines of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
That would turn into a civil war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
You are totally unaware of what the American culture is, Civil war for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
There is something about the culture of using violence to solve problems.
The grave dancers in Canada should pop up shortly and demand gun confiscations up here. Trudough will be too happy to lead the charge.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
This is tragic.
What will be even worse will be the back and forth of the extreme of both sides of the gun control issue yelling their rhetoric from the proverbial mountain top in order to get their agenda's heard/implemented. Nothing will get done and as you put it in a previous post, the cycle will repeat over and over again.
The news this morning said Trump was tweeting about the need for people to speak up when they see someone having serious mental issues, the other part of the story was that he had approved the reversal of an Obama-era regulation that helped limit access to guns by people with mental issues.
True or not I dunno. Another sad day, another few weeks of talking about it, and another few weeks till the next one.
So thankful we are up here.
Nothing came to fruition after the Vegas shooting, not going to claim that people will not bring this up but Trudeau did not lead anything after the last one, at least not officially.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
If it can produce votes in strategic ridings, wait for it.
I'm not trying to belittle this stuff. As a parent I can't imagine dropping my kid off at school and never seeing them alive again. What a messed up world. And we are the part that is supposedly civilized and advanced.
Then the 1st Amendment should only allow freedom of expression with an ink well and quill pen.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG MAC
If you read the COMPLETE 2nd amendment, it says that the people should be armed and have access to arms on a level to which they can resist a corrupted Government and it's military.
To change an amendment, it has to be done by the states and NOT by the federal Government to be legal under the constitution of the US.
You can't just pass a bill in the house and Senate. If it was that easy the 2nd Amendment, states rights, the bill of rights, and many things would have been changed or removed by the Liberial Democrats years ago.
Yea. Firearm law just doesn't fall under one body in the US like it does here. This really compounds the problem of introducing some common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Gun ownership in the USA is a right , in Canada it's a privilege. Big difference.
Case and point: https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/n...-patriot-group (Yes, I realize the source of this article.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Meanwhile 14 million people died from cancer caused by legal cigarettes.
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Having been forced to take constitutional law when I went to school down there it doesn't say individuals have the right. It states the free state has the right to provide arms to the people for a regulated militia. The constitution is just a glorified real estate and ownership document, except for the second amendment. Where the free state has the right to protect itself
since the sandy hook massacre there have been 1606 mass shootings
Let me start by saying this - if you give up your freedom and liberal for security you will end up with neither - shooting like this are metal disorder problems - this people are nuts - plain and simple - the way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun - we need to get rid of these so called gun free zones - teachers, administrators and security guards need to arm themselves so they are react and stop such shooting from happening or at least limit their damage - we Americans will never give up our guns - law or no law - much of our constitution was written to protect citizens from the government - freedom of speech, right to bear arms, freedom of search and seizure, religious freedom .etc - that's what makes our country different from others - you got to remember the difference in the formation of our countries - our forefathers fought the oppression of the king - while yours didn't
Joe, Do you ever read what you type before sending it. This is exactly why you have the problem you have down there with this train of thought. So I guess you'd have the Good Guys all wear white and hope the Bad Guys wore Black so nobody shoots anyone who is innocent or is that just to bad if they do Joe?? And I guess if you are a TALL Kid you stand a chance of being caught in a Crossfire. Its Bad enough they have to do drills in case a live shooter comes into the schools. If I had to send my kids to a school where every teacher and anyone working there had to carry a gun so my kid would be safer I would be moving as far away from those areas as I could. Can just hear the teacher after school, I won't be able to mark those tests tonight and will be late getting home as I have to go to the gun range and practice my shooting skills, you seem to think the way to go is back to the Gunfight at the OK Corral Days,
First of all,there's no such thing as an "assault" rifle and full auto rifles are illegal for Americans to own. Semi-autos can't be banned because they're used in different variations for hunting as it's most popular piece of gear. Blanket knee jerks are the worst for collateral,unintended,completely useless results. Secondly,you're blaming the firearm instead of the shooter. That's like blaming forks because you're fat or a a hammer because you smashed your thumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
That's quite the lesson you took away from your classes. You failed,didn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
That's why there's such a vast difference in American and Canadian mind sets and attitudes when it comes to firearms and firearms ownership,simply because of the evolution of political systems starting with the origin of each country. Americans have "rights" carved in stone by the US Constitution. Canadians have "privileges" which can disappear with the stroke of The Governor-General's pen at the behest of the ruling political party's ideology and dogma.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43071710Quote:
The FBI has confirmed that it was warned about the teenager who allegedly carried out a mass shooting at his former school in Florida.
Nikolas Cruz, who has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder, reportedly left a comment on a YouTube video last year stating: "I'm going to be a professional school shooter."
A user alerted authorities to the post.
Teachers were also warned about Mr Cruz, who was not allowed on campus with a backpack, US media report.
The FBI said it had investigated the YouTube comment but had been unable to fully identify the person who posted it.
Yes, the very reason the rest of the world views Americans, as overly aggressive and mentally unstable. This is not the 1700'sQuote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
You could say that exact thing 18 times so far this year in schools.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
What about all the areas that are not gun free zones? There have been 30 mass shootings in the US in the first 45 days of 2018, 346 in 2017, where are all the good guys with guns?
You say that mental disorders are a problem but you do not believe people should be checked for such things and restricted from owning firearms because of it.
Quite the diversity of "what we know" out there... the only thing they agree on is that everyone saw a problem kid.
http://nationalpost.com/news/world/e...r-nikolas-cruz
Cruz wore “extreme” patriotic shirts that took issue with Islam and even sported a Trump hat at one stage, Parodie said."
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-a...83e689cffc8d30
THE shooting suspect called himself the “annihilator”, and students predicted he’d be “the one to shoot up the school”.
He got the AR-15 legally so the anti's or uninformed can use the gun as the "problem" to avoid thinking too deep.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...215-story.html
"Cruz purchased the AR-15 legally about a year ago, a law enforcement official who is familiar with the investigation told The Associated Press. The official, not authorized to discuss this publicly, spoke on condition of anonymity. Federal law allows people 18 and older to legally purchase long guns,including this kind of assault weapon."
When you see assault weapon look at any semi-auto and change the wood to plastic and the anti's will scream assault weapon.... which has nothing to do with the definition of assault rifle Just take
http://i.imgur.com/NtFuivu.jpg?1
change it to
http://www.mwgco.com/mm5/graphics/00...ible_Stock.jpg
Instant "assault weapon" according to the media and delusional....
although going the other way with the wood doesn't seem to affect their attitude usually.
http://i0.wp.com/farm9.staticflickr....e7f10a9f_b.jpg
Others talk about this kid wearing ANTIFA and Communist shirts but of course the Instagram etc. are long gone... the media and politicians will pick what they want for their agenda of course... all while Chicago with the US's strongest gun controls bleeds
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2-...end-shootings/
Six people were killed and and 22 others were wounded, including a 5-year-old girl, between Friday evening and Monday morning.
The percentage of those murdered in the US by gangs and gang violence is about 80% of the deaths (about 70% identified as such in Canada) and there needs to be some cultural and attitude changes. Both there and here we see groups like ANTIFA etc. happily advocating violence for the left and right yet for the left the media seems to give them a free pass unfortunately. Hopefully Trump's turfing of the criminal elements of the immigration won't have the effect I expect here with our idiot in charges we welcome anyone, ISIL and murderers included!
Between a tragedy like this and the recent native shooting we can expect something negative for legal firearm owners (atleast rants and insults if not actual changes) from the master of emotional response ideologues we have in Ottawa.
They take the AR's now, then your pistols, what next......your semi auto hunting long guns, then your bolt action hunting rifles?
The National Shooting Sports Foundation estimates there are roughly 5 million to 10 million AR-15 rifles owned in the United States, a small share of the roughly 300 million firearms owned by Americans - so even if you take the AR's out of the equation that only accounts for 3% of their guns.
Just read an article on MSN and passing along this excerpt from it.
Another argument you sometimes hear is that these shootings would happen less frequently if even more people had guns, thus enabling them to defend themselves from the shooting.
But, again, the data shows this is simply not true. High gun ownership rates do not reduce gun deaths, but rather tend to coincide with increases in gun deaths. While a few people in some cases may use a gun to successfully defend themselves or others, the proliferation of guns appears to cause far more violence than it prevents.
Multiplesimulations have also demonstrated that most people, if placed in an active shooter situation while armed, will not be able to stop the situation, and may in fact do little more than get themselves killed in the process.
This video, from ABC News, shows one such simulation, in which people repeatedly fail to shoot an active shooter before they're shot:
Let's see MSN and a "simulation" by ABC....... that kind of says it there...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08...s-shooter.html
"Here are a few examples of such incidents:
-- In 1997, the assistant principal of Mississippi’s Pearl High School, Joel Myrick, used the .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol he kept in his truck to detain 16-year-old Luke Woodham after the teenager stabbed and bludgeoned to death his mother at home and killed two students and injured seven at the high school.
-- A decade later, in 2007, Matthew Murray killed four people at Colorado Spring church before being shot by church member and volunteer security guard Jeanne Assam.
-- Last April, an Uber driver with a concealed-carry permit shot and wounded a gunman who opened fire on a crowd of people in Chicago’s Logan Square.
-- This September, an usher at a Tennessee church used his personal firearm to subdue a masked gunman who had already killed one woman in the church’s parking lot and injured six others inside."
The US needs a better system to keep track of who can and can't own a firearm and for someone to have a concealed carry they should have proper training for it but to say it doesn't work is empirically false. Better controls will help, cultural changes and enforcement much more so but in any modern shop there is enough there to make your own.... take a look at what was recently seized in the Ukraine... as long as criminals want a firearm there will be a demand and if there is more money than risk someone will supply it.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...eized-ukraine/
and with 3D printing ... 45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJyf1IrHtcE
and a 357
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rzw-TFVbMM
or an AR?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz8mlB1hZ-o
P.S. No point in a new post for this video I just spotted, of a 71 year old chasing 2 armed robbers out the door.
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/964116558384570369
Dear Mac - just for you - "Studies indicate that firearms are used more than 2 million times a year for personal protection,and that the presence of a firearm , without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances. Shooting usually can be justified only where crime constitutes an immediate, imminent threat to life, limb, or in some cases, property ." Bills are being introduced in many states to pay for the training of teachers and administrators so that they can defend themselves and students - there is also a bill that would allow you to carry a concealed weapon in any state if you have a permit in one state - don't believe what you read in some liberal rag about gun control and expect to get the truth - guns in the hands of good people is good for everyone
He could have just as easily had a pump shotgun full of 7 rounds of buckshot and done just as much damage it's not the gun people got to stop blaming the gunQuote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
Agree Dutch .Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shootingQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Is that where you got the number 30? What precisely defines a mass shooting? I think you'll find that not everyone agrees with the numbers.
Regardless, I think we can all agree that evenn one shooting is one too many. I don't know how to fix it, but there certainly is a problem.
There are a bunch of places that have that number, irrelevant of how accurate it is, anywhere close to 1 every 2 days is just insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
I don't know how to do it but kids need to grow up being taught that violence is not the way to solve your problems, but from what I have read by some of those down south their answer to violence is more violence, which will solve nothing, it will just build up the cycle, as we have seen.
Thought this was relevant as far as the realities of US firearms laws, crime and comparisons.
https://www.facebook.com/dapholosoph...5058588638984/
AND this is what most people in Canada have been lulled into believing..that they actually have rights in Canada. That is the difference you just laid out so clearly. Thank You.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
False. Full-auto absolutely is legal to own in the US. It's regulated and expensive, but it certainly isn't illegal at a federal level. Stop spreading falsehoods.
US firearms laws and state specific, some have significantly heavier restrictions than others, the machine gun ban involves not being able to import guns made after a certain date, in the 80s somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
Here is the listQuote:
Originally Posted by awndray
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/15/here...eaks-down.html
The list is accurate when it comes to school shootings, which is nuts, 18 in 45 days, even if there was only one that was a "mass shooting".
Line052 if you want laws and rights like the USA , move there. ( the total votes for the libertarians, will tell you how many agree with you).
OK,only if one has a federal firearms license, has jumped through more hoops with ATFE,the FBI and local Sheriff and has a legit reason for owning/possessing one. The average American hasn't a hope of owning a full-auto "just because".Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
Indeed. That doesn't mean machine guns/full-autos are illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
They are not actually illegal in Canada either, just very heavily regulated but there are people who have them legally, not that everyone should be able to have them, at least not in my mind, not a free for all with no consideration of any outside information.Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
Mental health is the problem down south, not firearms....
Its both. There are so many firearms in the states that the crazies will always have access to a firearm from one source or another.
In Canada there are quite a few that legally possessed " machine guns " fully automatic , one of these was the so called notorious bad guy "Johnny Sombrero " AKA Harry Barnes, the Supreme Leader of The Black Diamond Riders MC, it's surprising
that no one here has never heard of him as he made headlines quite often about his gun collection which the police did not like.
" Johnny Sombrero annoyed the police for six decades, not so much for what he did as for his free and independent attitude. A Canadian Swat team broke into his home on January 21, 2010. He was a gunsmith and a gun collector. His collection included both a gun his father had given when he was seven and multiple, legally possessed machine guns. The police accused him of improperly storing 18 guns. The guns were stored in two locked metal cabinets. Police and prosecutors charged “the guns were put away together with their removable bolts or bolt-carriers” in violation of Canadian law. They also alleged, “the guns were not kept in a vault or a room that was specially constructed or modified for the storage of prohibited firearms,” The issue in the case was whether the cabinets qualified as “safes.” The case lingered for 17 months before a judge ruled that Barnes had done nothing wrong and his guns were returned to him ".
We used to see him and a few of his crew at Gun Shows in Ancaster and Orangeville , where the police presence was noticeable even though they were supposed to be undercover.
He was an interesting guy to talk with. He is now dead, died back in Nov. of 2016.
Well guns don't pick themselves up and shoot people. If they didn't have guns they'd make bombs or what ever other means. Timothy McVeigh never fired a shot. The world trade center, no guns used. Blaming guns is just grasping at straws....Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Same old fake news - http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/...all-wrong.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Is it Mental Health , or something else ?Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Why is it that those involved in mass shootings, always pick on the innocent , kids in schools, people in movie houses, people at concerts, at churches and such ? Why is it they always pick on the ones that cannot protect themselves ?
If they are hell bent on a mass shooting , why not phone the local Police /Sheriffs Dept, or the local Military or any other armed group that would willingly accommodate them? .
No they won't do it as they are simply weak kneed chicken zzhit low life bzztards trying to show how tough they are by killing innocents , be they young, old , male or female that cannot defend themselves and in a lot of cases are in places where they are enjoying themselves.
Maybe this is a Mental Health problem , but those around these types should be more aware of the problem and they should be reported to the Authorities who SHOULD ACT upon these reports with more seriousness, many times it has been reported that the perp. was know to the police but they did nothing about it. Unbelievable.
Yep, and this debunk has been all over the news the last two days. People that stay in their mainstream media echo chambers never hear it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Too many Tide Pod consumers.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
JP. Yes I read it. Says 'only' 5, of the 18 reported school shootings happened under their criteria.... ONLY 5... FIVE, so far this year, and your okay with that , how sad.
There's your example of fake (spin and twist) news. Nobody claimed to be ok with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
And you are taking fox as the definitive source, they do not have a great history of unbiased truth. Next you will be citing the NRA reports.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
Source? I hear people claim Fox is fake news but never anything to back their claims. I agree they're biased towards the right but they don't report fake news, unless you can prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0ykkHNRAroQuote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Same old mantra! Guns dont kill people. People do.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Guns kill from a distance and thats where all their bravado comes from
If you take the availability of guns away from these guys most dont have the nerve or spine to get up close to their victims and look them in the while they stab or bash their brains in. And most dont have the know how to build a bomb. Once a shot is fired people scatter. Start swinging a bat and youll be tackled by a crowd of onlookers and that introduce you to the Newfy boxing gloves.
It might be the same old mantra,sawbill,but,it's still true. I agree that these are spineless pukes that pull that crap,but,bomb-making technology is a click of a mouse away on the internet. Cowardice is cowardice. If they couldn't get guns they can build IED's,drop them in a cafeteria or auditorium,walk away and be far away before it goes BOOM! Deal with mental illness,especially,where the intentions are known in advance like this incident. Local Police and the FBI knew about this clown over a year ago,still completely dropping the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Unless there is a substantial increase in funding/manpower, police agencies will never have the resources dedicated to investigating each and every individual with mental issues. They've already seen kids with no known problems commit these shootings. And thats not even addressing the out of control murders that take place everyday on their streets.
If you really want to cry about public safety, you are aware that 36 people are killed every single day from DUI down south, yet nobody bats an eye, and nobody cares? There's no media coverage and why don't people care? I take it with your thinking it's the vehicals killing people, just like your theory how guns kill people. Your same old attack on guns is falling on deaf ears. For some people is easy to blame the easy way out than to deal with the real issue. Building a bomb is not rocket science, any kid could figure it out...Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
I guess you just dont get it. Im not blaming the gun. Im blaming the availability of them. And not everbody would be comfortable building a bomb even though the how-to is readily available. And with your analigy of dui deaths makes no sense. The guy who bangs back a few beers then jumps in his car has no intention of killing anyone.
Sawbill,
I cant believe I am saying this as I am very pro gun. But it’s getting out of hand in the states and something needs to be done. Not sure what it is though.
Our system is pretty damn good up here. Could be improved, but overall, I am pretty happy with it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Big Turk - here is your answer - from someone who knows - http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/02/1...event-violence
Joepa,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
I agree it takes a good guy with a gun to dispatch a bad guy with a gun. The question remains though (at least in my mind)...with the model proposed by the sherif, how many people will get killed before the assailant is dispatched by the good guy with a gun?
To me...if the answer is anything but zero, then this is not the correct solution.
I cant see the good guy with the gun being in the right place at the right time all the time.
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There is also the fact , that most armed citizens are not trained well enough to become effective at killing bad guys under stressful situations, and they themselves wind up getting killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTurk
Just seen an interesting stat scrolled across the TV screen here in gun crazy Texas. The USA has 5 percent of the worlds population. It has 25 percent of the incarcerated worlds population.
So right off the bat they have to deal with the root cause of this issue.
It has nothing directly to do with the subject of mass shootings but it does show a propensity toward violent solutions to situations.
Do you have kids?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTurk
Two coaches at that school died protecting the kids the only way they could. They used their own bodies as shields to stop bullets. They decided that they would rather die as a 'DEFENCELESS TARGET" for the shooter then see kids get hurt or killed. How much could the story have changed if just those two coaches had been armed. They already KNEW they were going to die, would it not be at least been fair to have at least given them the chance to shoot back?
As for the good guy with the gun being at the "Right" place at the"Right" time, are you fine with the bad guy being at the wrong place any time? Mass shooters do not attack people randomly, they pick places where they will "NOT" likely find a good guy with a gun.
Turk - it is impossible to say that victims of such crimes will be zero all the time -it comes with the risk of living - sometimes a good guy will shoot the bad guy before he kills anyone - sometimes the good guy will shoot the bad guy after he kills someone but before he kills more - considering all the factors involved in these mass shooting incidents there isn't any other options - there are sick people out there - there are bad people out there - there are millions of guns out there - and unfortunately we can't get all people to live good lives - evil will always be with us - as far as root causes for such behavior - mental illness, social outcasts, economic injustice, social injustice, just plain evil tendencies, lack of charity to others , on and on - so you see we will always have situations where someone will want to hurt others - the only thing you can do is prepare for it - finally one might say - take all guns away from people but then you know that would only make it worse - you would only have bad people with the guns
“Mass shooters do not attack people randomly, they pick places where they will "NOT" likely find a good guy with a gun.”Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Yes. I do have kids. 2 awesome kids. What if they were in a cafeteria and an assailant opened up? Who would be there to protect them??? Cafeteria lady???? Who the f&@k would protect them???
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Joepa,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
When in the history of the USA have you seen shootings as bad as they are now? Has there been a time?
I am in no way an advocate of taking guns away from people. No friggen way! At the same time...one has to recognize this as an issue right now. This is a problem Joepa.
People that want to do harm are getting access to guns easily. This should not be the case. The system is broken. Not blaming anyone, or any parties, but its broken.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Big Turk, you will find arguing with J P a waste of time as he has the Donald Trump Koolaid jug sitting by his side at all times.
So lets go back to the VEGAS shooting, worst in USA History. How could a Good Guy at a concert with a Handgun have stopped this guy? He was out of range for anyone with a handgun, you know what would have happened with ALL those people with handguns, they would have Shot Each other thinking the guy with the gun 20' away was the Bad Guy. But as Joe says, a few innocent people dying is sometimes the cost. WOW WOW WOW.
So arm all Teachers, well then they will just shoot the kids before or after school. More Guns does not make it any safer, just means the shooter picks a different spot. First thing they need to do re the schools is make them harder to gain entry to, have a single point of entry and possibly a armed guard at that entry point. Metal Detectors that automactically lock doors if they go off, has to be so many low hanging fruit ways to make them safer, Understand this guy pulled a fire alarm, was it outside the school? Haven't heard that detail yet.
Maybe. When I was in High school, the Cafeteria lady(guy) was Retired PPCLI. I also find your option that a woman would not be able to stop a shooter to be sexist. Do you not think women can do anything other then cook and have babies?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTurk
Turk - to answer your question - no things like this didn't happen years ago or if they did it was very rare - I personally don't remember any - our society has changed - when I went to high school we had a prayer assembly once a week where the bible was read - that was in a public high school - most people believed in God and acted accordingly - they believed that a person would be accountable for their actions - today many don't believe in moral absolutes - do your own thing - also life is cheap today - we get upset when people are shot in a mass shooting (rightly so ) but where is the outcry when millions upon millions of babies are slaughtered in abortion clinics - the godless liberals has been successful in getting God out of schools and now we got to worry about guns - and I'll tell you something - things are not going to get any better - you may look down here and see all the crime but believe me it will eventually get up there - it"s just a matter of time -
There is a war going on for the soul of our country - thank God the people wised up and have thrown a lot of progressive liberals out of office - the liberals have soiled so many agencies - the FBI, Dept of Justice and the National Security Agency have all been politicized - we can't even trust these agencies anymore - it is a shame -
Even after 20 plus years of experience and training, active shooter training is extremely intense. I can’t imagine joe citizen doing very well at all!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
I'd like to know what medication these "kids" are on or should be on during these school shootings.
Seems like you hear a lot that the accused "has been off his medication for sometime" or that they are taking medication for some mental disorder.
Why are there so many people so screwed in the head that they think commiting mass murders are going to make things better?
Why is this happening so often now in the last 20 years? When guns have been legal and easy to buy for generations in the states.
Seems like their are so many people out there that think just banning this AR15 or high capacity mags is going to stop these nut jobs from going on killing sprees.
There's a serious mental health problem with today's youth IMO. So much sense of entitlement and ZERO responsibility. Until much of this is addressed, nothing will change
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Banning or restricting the AR 15 isn't going to solve the gun problem in the US but it might be the start of getting people in the US to look at guns and their gun laws in a different light. It has to start somewhere
You are taking my quote about the cafe lady out of context. Thats out of line man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
I would not want my kids to have to endure lunch under watch by guards with guns (regardless of whom it is).
This will be the end our discussion on this matter.
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Home of the brave and land of the free and living under constant fear that they'll be shot by some nut when going out to the store,school,work or church? Americans need to rethink and until they get a handle on the whackos getting their hands on firearms,freedom and liberty is just a pipe dream.
OMG you make the school lunch room sound like it would be a scene out of George Orwell's 1984. You did read 1984 or Animal Farm in School right?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTurk
No kiddingQuote:
Originally Posted by SongDog
Manadatory military service. That may just help them in the long run to weed out the folks that should never own a gun.
You can’t put the cat back in the bag so to speak. The guns are out there so I doubt changing their laws will do much of any good.
Thy tried a ban on booze drugs and prostitution none of these work. Criminals do not obey laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Laws as a control of population only really affect people that obey them. Someone that is willing to break the most serious laws like killing people, is not going to be stopped by lesser one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
It's not about the criminals obeying the laws, it's about getting more people learning to respect guns. The guns laws in the US are just too lax allowing too many people that shouldn't own them, own them....Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
At the very least they can start with realistic storage laws. Seems as if any kid that wants to get his hands on a firearm need go no further than his dads nightstand or mommys purse.
With 80% of the firearm deaths being drug related there won't be a big numbers difference BUT with either of these two.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-t...un-for-safety/
and
https://getidentilock.com/
and something like these where you can access quick and they still have the key option would put a dent in that other 20%.
http://www.gunvault.com/biometrics.html/
In this case though and the Las Vegas even given the laws in place one should have been investigated and the other should never have been able to get a firearm. Both show a need that has more to do with law enforcement than firearms laws changes that are needed.
There are lots of options for safes that can be quick accessed through a bracelet, fingerprint etc. so little kids shouldn't have access.
https://gundigest.com/article/galler...s-home-defense
and
http://cdn.gunsafereviewsguy.com/gsr...-table-oak.jpg
For those here that are handy you can make a closet into your own version of ...
https://hiddendoorstore.com/secure-guns-at-home/
using this to hide a closet or even a room depending on layout.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/pag...305,55408&ap=1
BUT will people use them? Will the kids find out how to get in? Will they just make a pressure cooker/pipe bomb instead?
There do need to be some changes though..... in culture more than anything..... and NOT the gun culture (hunters, shooters, collectors...), the drug and gang culture! ... and with our idiot in charges attitude on any thug is a good citizen let them in I worry about that coming here.
Just pointing out a fact.
Attachment 36699
They were on drugs but they still got their hands on guns.
What good is a gun in a locked container when your sleeping and someone breaks into your house. That's why they are allowed to have them at convenience so they can actually protect themselves at all times. Just because we have laws here that try to hang firearm owners at every chance they can, doesn't mean other countries should be the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
One stat that I just found, between 2003 and 2007 3.7 million burglaries happened in the US, about 1 million of those happened when the person was home, 266,560 of those people were victims of a violent crime in that period (including assault). So this means that approximately 66,640 people had someone enter their home each year in the US while they were home and assault them. With the US population being 323,100,000 approximately, there is a very tiny chance that someone would come into your home and do anything to you, even in the US, also noted is that not 1 person noted as killed by a home invader in that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
So your comment about needing loaded firearms all over your house is a moot one.
Look into how many home invaders are shot by home owners in the USA. Just because they don't cover it in the media doesn't mean it's not happening. The big difference is down south people don't go to jail or trial for protecting themselves or their property so it doesn't make the news like up here. And with over 3.7 million burglaries, who wants to have their guns locked up unable to use for protection?...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Find your source and reference that before commenting on all of the home invaders being shot. I would love to see the numbers but I expect to come back here to see "fake news" or something similar written.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
The fact is that most break and enters are at a similar number to other developed nations and I can never figure out why I do not fear for my life every time to close my eyes but yet the do just across the border in the same sort of environment as I live.
At least once a Week in the US we read about some young child finding a Loaded Handgun in Daddys Nightstand and shooting his sister or little brother, maybe ask those Parents if they had done something different if their child would be alive. Like maybe keeping the guns locked up all day in a safe place. or at least Trigger Locks and not loaded. It starts with responsible Gun Handling . They interviewed the People who took in the latest Mass Murderer in the School shooting in Florida, they did have the guns in a Safe. guess there was a second key he didn't know about, if those guns had Trigger Locks on them Maybe Just maybe those kids would be alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Studies indicate that firearms are used more than 2 million times a year for personal protection and that just the presence of a firearm, without firing a shot, prevents crime in many instances - some of you are missing the point - I have a right to defend myself and my family - if I feel I need a gun to do that then it is my choice - if you don't want to have a gun then don't get one - having a gun all locked up in a safe is just about the same as not having one - as I have mentioned before there are evil people out there and it only takes one time when something happens and you wish you had a gun - this latest shooting should have never happened - everyone who knew this kid knew that he was a time bomb that was going to go off someday - the FBI had been warned but did nothing - I have a firearm with me most of the time and I am sure a lot of others do also - having a lot of good guys with guns around makes for a safe environment
Putting rings on your finger or having finger printed recognition triggers just add a lot to the price of a gun and then what about the over 300 million guns already out in the public - if someone wants to buy a gun like that by all means go ahead - I sure don't want one - at the end some additional laws will be enacted as a result of the latest shooting but these will have little affect on the real problem
I could care less of your opinion on how you may feel safe. You don't live in the USA so you don't get as far as firearm ownership. You obviously don't live in a high crime area so you have no understanding of what living safe is for people that do. I've had family members who have been broken into while they were home and had to use a gun to save themselves. When ever they talk about it, they always say, they don't know what would have happened to them if they didn't have a gun....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Pretty sure I read that somewhere in the states today a 7 year old accidently shot herself ( think at School ) and from what I'm reading a few people on this thread think that is the price you pay so you can have a gun handy in case your house is broken into. I have 2 young grandchildren 7 and 4 year old and can't even think how I would feel if they found a Loaded handgun in a nightstand and shot one and another. If I lived someplace that I had to carry a gun or have a loaded gun with me for my safety I would be moving pretty quickly.
Here is what we are dealing with - http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/20...-cops-say.html - maybe - and you want me to give up my gun - a real nice clean cut guy -
See we are on the same side........I don't want you to give up your gun, just like you........I just would like people like this not to be able to legally buy them.... Tighter guns laws can close some of the loopholes...Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Mac - look at it this way - because some stupid person leaves a loaded gun somewhere and a kid gets a hold of it and kills them self you want a law passed so that millions of other people - who have enough sense to keep guns away from children - be required to lock up their guns or face a hefty fine and imprisonment - should we let stupid people dictate how we live - and as far as moving somewhere else - that is easier said than done - it might be easier to just to carry a weapon with you just in case
The problem is that the house holds where kids are finding loaded guns and shooting themself or someone else, are also the house holds where kids are drinking cleaner from under the sink or eating pills from the bottle on the night stand. One gets lots of news coverage, the other gets none. You don't store your firearms safely only because the law makes you, you store them because you know it's the safe thing to do. I bet your pills and cleaning supplies are locked up too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG MAC
How things have changed..maybe they need to change back.
https://pin.it/ru3mlp2acnb2cm
Well poisoning definitely is a problem too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/accidental-injury.htm
All unintentional injury deaths
Number of deaths: 135,928
Deaths per 100,000 population: 42.6
Cause of death rank: 4
Unintentional fall deaths
Number of deaths: 31,959
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.0
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 33,736
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6
Unintentional poisoning deaths
Number of deaths: 42,032
Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.2
Firearm homicides
Number of deaths: 11,008
Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.5
....
"100 per cent of us die, and the percentage cannot be increased." - C.S. Lewis
but some see intent (intentionally or not) on achieving it faster than others.
Canada isn't immune too of course... but let's look at a number we don't often see added up.
http://madd.ca/pages/impaired-drivin...ew/statistics/
In 2013, there were a total of 2,430 crash deaths on public roads, involving at least one highway vehicle (e.g. passenger cars, vans, trucks, or motorcycles). Based on testing of fatally-injured drivers, it may be estimated that 1,451 (59.7%) of these deaths involved drivers who had some alcohol and/or drugs in their system.
369 deaths, or 15.2%, occurred in crashes involving drivers who were positive for alcohol alone.
683 deaths, or 28.1%, occurred in crashes involving drivers who were positive for drugs alone.
399 deaths, or 16.4%, occurred in crashes involving drivers who were positive for both alcohol and drugs
Being intoxicated and driving is illegal but that shows a number multiples higher than the firearm deaths. As I pointed out before in this thread with biometric etc. locks (I gave a bunch of examples) anyone that has the money to invest in a firearm should be able to invest in a safe way to access it and store it but when 80% of the murders are gang related it won't make a big difference in the numbers, but it will make a huge difference in the family!
Locks, vaults, secret rooms etc.
https://www.oodmag.com/community/sho...79#post1052579
P.S.
2008 How Canadians die.
http://nationalpost.com/news/graphic...ny-ways-to-die
The point I was making with the kids getting poisoned, was that no matter the dangerous product some people just do not store it properly. There are hundreds of calls to the poison control centers/Hospitals ever month for kids eating/drinking things, but they don't make the news even when charges are layed. One incident with a gun or even a gun shaped poptart and the public loses it's mind.
I see a difference comparing cleaning or weeding chemicals to firearms though. Many people have no idea of the dangers these chemicals can pose and their use is not intended to harm anyone. Im sure I had more than my share of it hanging around under the sink and in basement and garage cupboards when my kids were young. I had firearms as well but taught the kids not to touch them.
When it comes to firearms even the most naive individual knows what they're used for. They got that from TV westerns or cop dramas.
I dont know what the answer is but it has to start somewhere. The NRA has to stop digging its heels in and push for access and storage laws that work. If they actually took the lead in this they'd gain back a lot of the respect they've lost over the past decade or two.
Most of them already do including the recent one in Florida, for someone who is willing to giver there life and is mentally unstable an armed cop will not be a deterrence.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
It's way passed the time where they can no longer do nothing. The problem is the hard liners who view any tinkering with gun rights to be grounds for civil war.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Trump has some good ideas - thinks a lot like myself on this issue - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...-shooters.html
You want them to not sell to anyone under 21, ban bump stocks and increase background checks too?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
[QUOTE=Fox;1052914]You want them to not sell to anyone under 21, ban bump stocks and increase background checks too? -
I don't have any problem with not allowing anyone under 21 to buy a gun - while they are at it maybe they could not allow anyone under 21 to vote - I have no problem banning bump stocks and increasing background checks - but I'll tell you something - these only make it sound like they are doing something - arming school teachers and administrators is the best approach - we have armed guards at sporting events, at banks, at social security offices, politicians and rich people have armed security, jewelry stores, why in the world don't we have armed guards at schools to protect our children - makes no sense to have gun free zones - it is just plain stupid
[QUOTE=JoePa;1052923]Lots of armed people in Vegas, did not seem to do a heck of a lot there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
So Joe, give us your answer on how the People at the Las Vegas Concert ( worst mass shooting in US History ) would have protected themselves if all concert attendee's where carrying a Gun, or even if all the Security Guards had a Gun, They couldn't have as the shooter was to far away, just would have had more innocent people killed.
as for arming the Teachers that is about as Stupid as it comes and right out of the NRA Playbook. The shooter will now kill the Students on the way or just in front of the school as the kids are getting dropped off or picked up. Would bet Money if you went to Every School in the States ( heard 90,000 of them ) that the vote from the Teachers at every school would be higher for not having a gun as opposed to carrying a Gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
No proposed solution drummed up by either the left or right is 100 % fool proof - you will always find a situation where armed good guys can't stop a shooting but they can reduce them - as far as a shooter killing kids outside of school - armed teachers and others could be standing around outside of the school - even some bus drivers or parents dropping off kids can be armed and render help when needed - you don't eliminate an option because it isn't 100 % effective - and I'm sure there are a lot of teachers who would like to have a gun but are now prohibited because of this gun free zones crap - the more good guys with guns the better -
If I was at that performance in Las Vegas and had my scoped .243 with me I would have picked off that guy in the window after he let a couple rounds fly down on the crowd - doesn't hurt to have a handgun in your waist band and a scoped sniper rifle draped over your shoulder when you go someplace - just in case - oh and always make sure you have enough ammo
What do you think? All those white mass shooters
https://pin.it/bk52kquyaksxrk
On the subject of "Mass Shootings " ;Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
During the Reagan era; -11 mass shootings
------------ Bush era;-- 12 .. ..
------------Clinton era;-- 23 .. ..
------------Bush jr. era;-- 16 .. ..
-----------Obama era;-- 162 .. .. Wow ! what happened here ? Did Obama revive racism and hatred ??? , very big question.
You guys should probably only hold school on military bases with 5 mile buffers and checkpoints manned by Navy Seals and snipers on every roof top. Should also issue type IV body armour to all staff and students.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Seriously though you already have more guns in the hands of "good guys" than anywhere on the planet and yet per capita you have more homicides and shootings like this than anywhere in the developed world. Something is clearly wrong with your model and more guns is not the answer.
Does not have to be the answer, just a right. Americans talk about the third world and their problems , yet they are the most violent society on earth.
I can just see my 8th grade teacher armed with a hand gun.
The lady was about 70 years old with a limp and had bit of the shakes when she's wrote on the chaulk board.
Ya, thats who I want armed and protecting me from a deranged shooter, I'm sure she would be a real Annie Oakley
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I would have thought social media and bullying and copy catting was a root cause of all these shootings. But looking at the mug shots of the perpetrators now makes me wonder just how off base I was.
In fairness they are not asking teachers with no experience or mandating that all teachers carry guns..... I am sure there are some teachers (good law abiding teachers)in the US that are licensed firearm owners that are more than willing to go the extra mile in keeping the kids safe.
Many teachers including the one that got killed in Florida give up their lives to protect our children. Maybe allowing them to protect themselves and our kids with firearms (against the bad guys) isn't such a bad idea. This will at least give them a fighting chance. I know I would want my son's teacher to take a bullet for him.
We wouldn't think so highly of any teacher that didn't put their life before a students would we? I know I wouldn't. Allowing some to carry might not be that bad of an idea.?
I am just trying to get into the US mindset. Hard to do as a born Canadian though.
Not exactly true. More accurately they are the most violent society in the developed world. There are many many other countries that have higher rates of violent crime, kidnapping, rape, homicide etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Won't really matter how many "good guys" are on the scene if they are cowards like this one:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1G62X3
An armed deputy was on duty at that Florida high school but wouldn't go into the building to confront the shooter. Lotta good that did. I get it if you are an untrained civilian but for an on-duty LEO it is pathetic.
Wow..... that is sad, could have possible of saved a few lives............................................. ............................good thing he stepped down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
Exactly, so you have a fully trained deputy not do anything and you expect a teacher to be able to act properly in this situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
There are many who are brave enough and would react. In this last case a coach gave his life by taking bullets to save kids. If that coach was armed it likely would have ended there.
The problem is even needing to have this discussion. I couldn't live and raise kids in a place I felt needed armed protection in a school. The FBI should rethink thier mandates and work at removing guns from unstable people instead of being political lapdogs. The US need to implement better background checks. Not everybody should own guns. You will never catch all the maniacs but doing nothing is insane.
Trump talks about arming teachers, the NRA talks about locking down the school. When should in a modern society should we have to worry about our kids going to school? Why does there need to be locking gates and razor wire to get an education. There is a lot more wrong than the gun, there is a society of violence, just look at all the posts that JoePA posts, not once do I ever have to feel that way about where I live and worry about my family, it just does not happen, and I lived in some gang areas of Ottawa too.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Doing the same thing over and over and assuming a different result is the definition of insanity.
I like how we have restrictions in Canada around criminals and mental illness, no, it is not perfect, and yes I would like to be able to hunt with a handgun or an AR but the truth is, we can get an AR-15 in Canada, you can take a legally pinned magazine and drill it out, load it with 30 and do what is happening all over the US, but it does not happen here. There has never been an AR-15 used in a mass shooting in Canada, there is something more than the gun, there is a fundamental problem.
It sickens me that the Florida government will not consider any changes to the gun laws but debated making pornography a "public health risk", WTF.
The fact that this officer has been a school resource officer for the past 25 years....speaks volumes !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
So you are saying that he should really care for the kids, or are you implying that someone that someone who is not a full police officer would not be properly trained to deal with a situation like this?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I think one of the issues is the belief that the Second Amendment applies to everyone, which I guess maybe it has to if all people are considered equal under the Constitution ?
the right to bear arms should not be extended to people with mental issues or violent criminal tendencies, but then I guess it would change from a "right" to a "privilege" and that language would have them all wound up,
sadly I don't think it is going to be resolved, if 20+ dead primary students at SandyHook didn't spur any action this won't either.
Keep it down there.
Fox, I think once more comes out about this guy it will interesting to see what training he had and how often he took that training and how often he took target practice etc. etc. sounds like he froze, maybe he had never fired his gun before etc. etc. Look at how many stories you hear of guys on their first Deer Hunt and they Get Buck Fever and can't shoot a Deer that isn't shooting back at them, maybe same thing happened to this guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
As strange as it may sound humans are naturally a very aggressive species. Much of your early childhood development and parenting time is spent reconditioning kids to NOT be aggressive. Then in the early teen to adult stage we try to reawaken that aggression and focus it into sports and academic.
Much of your "boot camp" for the military is the military's attempt to "DEPROGRAM" all the anti-aggression training you had as a small kid.
This is exactly why arming teachers is a very stupid idea, they are not police officers, they are not trained as such and they mental capacity to deal with this sort of situation is a very bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG MAC
You have a young teacher with a firearm coming out into the hall to engage the high school student with a gun, now another teacher comes out and sees a guy with a gun engaging with a guy with a gun, what would keep that second teacher from shooting the first teacher in the heat of the moment? What about a person running at that teacher, are they being aggressive or looking for help?
I believe they will continue to bang their heads against the wall until they stop focusing on gun "control" and instead focus on education. The word control has negative connotations...... because who are you to think you can control me...... Control just isn't a good word. Instead if they focus on education, firearm safety, handling, even storage when not being carried or in use. There are way more complex issues, than just who has firearms, but the culture of violence. The US have the right to own and carry for self-defense, we do not here in Canada. Until there is a shift away from so much violence, you can't expect people to stop carrying for self defense.
The students impacted and others could start right now in building a program to educate their peers on firearm handling & use. Promote education on safe uses. That would have to do have some type of impact. Get to the point flyers are included when you purchase the same as we get NRA flyers and such. Focus on education and they should see some type of impact, without having to change rights & laws. At least that's my 2 cents.....
Who's going to confront a person with and AR15 , with a hand gun in a situation like they had.
I think that officer really didn't know what to do ,or how bad the situation really was.
Just my op.
Well let me chime in here - first off people are different - where one guys runs at the attacker to save kids the other hides even through he has a gun - you have brave people and you have wimps - this cop is a disgrace to say the least - a plain old coward - should be tarred and feathered and run out of town - this incident doesn't weaken the need to have armed personnel in the schools - if a shooter gets pass the entrance to the school and starts shooting good guys could take down the guy very quickly - teachers know each other and are not going to shoot at each other - that is far fetched - if you think that a handgun is inadequate then arm the teachers with more fire power - a lot of semi automatic handguns have magazines with 9 or more bullets so standing up to an AR15 isn't that big a deal - if fact I bet the guy with the AR15 is just spraying bullets around without aiming - a trained school guard should be able to hit the guy very easy - personnel willing to take on this responsibility should be compensated for , given training and a bullet proof vest - just as schools have fire drills they should have shooting drills - when a shooting incident occurs a teachers can grab a gun and his vest and head in the direction of the firing -
At the end you are never going to reach a point - no matter how many laws you pass - where you are going to be 100% sure these type of shooting never happen - yes we have a violent society - have you ever watched the movies that are out there - have you ever watched what kids are playing with on net with these video games - it is all shooting, killing and all forms of violence - the breakdown of the family, drugs, crooked politicians, crooked cops, lack of morals, .etc. - they all contribute to the society we have now - wait and see what happens when some disaster happens and the country breaks up into factions that fight against each other - you ain't seen nothing yet
That’s exactly what he should have done. Was he trained to respond to an active shooter ? If not, he most certainly should have been. At the very least, the shooter could have been held to one area until the troops arrived. We will never know now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE
I would like to think that many police agencies across the US will be taking a good hard look at how they have been providing for and training their officers who are assigned in these positions?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
But having said this, I am under the impression that officers are taught not to go charging into a scene such as this, but instead, wait for back up? We have seen this many times on news stories, where victims are left laying there dying as the police stand by while waiting for the "troops" to arrive?
That is exactly what Kevin Vickers, [Sgt. At Arms] in Ottawa did, went out and confronted an attacker with a long gun, he did not know that it was not an Ar-15, there were reports of 20 to 30 shots fired ??.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Vickers just took his sidearm , went out into the corridor and shot the attacker , game over , attacker lost .
Safety in numbers ???Quote:
We have seen this many times on news stories, where victims are left laying there dying as the police stand by while waiting for the "troops" to arrive?
That used to be sop, not now, we are trained to enter, locate and engage....don’t wait for CIRT, SWAT etc.....If I remember correctly, our active shooter training began as a result of Columbine..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmoose
I would imagine US training is similar.
Unfortunately many cops are not training adequately - they are too busy writing out tickets for tail lights being out
Tail lights out isn't the half of it. The amount of time US Police Officers spend using that as "probable cause" to stop a vehicle to search for a few grams of Marijuana is absolutely insane. American priorities are completely FUBAR....Facked Up Beyond All Recognition.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
^^^^^^ very much have to agree with thisQuote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Canadian kids have access to the same movies, the same video games, drugs and broken families that american kids have. So why the difference when it comes to crime?
Culture? The mindset isnt the same. It's like trying to explain what the difference is between Canadians and Americans. Pretty hard to do, but we Canadians know exactly what it is, just cant explain it?Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
That's it exactly. It's a mindset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmoose
Our history is very different from theirs even though we live next door. Americans have been killing each other for a very long time and no politician, gun law or security measure is going to change that. Look at the Civil War: Almost more casualties in the Civil War than every other war they've been involved in combined, and they were killing and maiming each other. They weren't liberating foreign countries from atrocities or defending their own country from foreign invaders, they were killing their own countrymen in greater numbers than any war before or any since. I don't think they ever truly recovered from that.
Fast forward 100 years and the country nearly tore itself apart yet again during the Vietnam War. They never recovered from that either.
As Canadians it's easy enough to sit and judge American laws, policies and practices but our histories aren't the same. The problems in America are so deep-rooted and ingrained in their culture, they're unfixable.
It won't change.
Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
What Bushmoose and GW have said.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Plus there aren't guns laying around everywhere....
An American watchs TV/Movies. A Canadian watchs American TV/Movies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmoose
MMore than the civil war they've fought between themselves over land, over fences, water rights, cattle vs sheep ranchers, oil and gold claims, indian wars and worse yet, slavery. So their culture is to duke it out rather than talk it out. Just so happens that guns work themselves smoothly into confrontational conflict resolution.
So now it comes out that the resource officers backup did not enter the school either, so the resource officer and sheriffs deputies would not enter the school. So, we have highly trained police officers with guns and protective gear not entering the school, how does anyone believe that a teacher would be better at dealing with this than the police officers?
The teacher is already in the building. He/she doesn't have to decide to enter. They may fold like a house of cards and that would be understandable, but they may instinctively engage the shooter and wound or fatally hit him. The US is such a F'd up place you need to look outside the box. Might be insane to us but we don't live down there. I don't think they would ever mandate concealed carry for teachers but I do think facilitating it with training programs is an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If a school has 50 teachers and there is a possibility that 3 or 4 of them are armed I can't see how that isn't a deterrent. Then again if suicide by cop is what the madman wants then there pretty well is no response to stop that once it begins.
There is also the fact that they never seem get a break. US Navy formed to protect merchant ship from and to fight Pirates on the Barbery coast ( North West Africa). US Navy then has to patrol and protect merchant shipping from Spanish pirates in the Caribbean and along the coast. US Navy needs Bases to resupply so in comes the US army to guard bases in Cuda, Aruba and other places. Border problems because Spanish troops attack US territories.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
A civil war, a few border wars with Spain,Indian wars(many tribes), muslim Pirate off Africa, Spanish Pirates off their east coast and the caribbean, and their war for Independence from England.
Total elapsed years? 1776 to 1905...129 years.
If Canada had gone through that much armed conflict in 130 years we would be a different culture.
That is only 5 to 6 Generation. Every one of those generations had an Armed conflict. The US has been at war or in armed conflict with someone somewere for the first 130 years of it' existence.
Work to keep disturbed people from access to firearms, in many of the recent cases (I know, not Vegas) mental issues were known but yet they cannot do anything about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
They had an armed officer at the school and it did not deter the guy, why would armed and improperly trained teachers deter him?
Snowwalker - you bring up a good point - in my life time I have seen 6 major wars - from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan along with several smaller ones - I was actively involved in one - it seems we are always at war somewhere - we have left a lot of blood and treasure on foreign soil - and it looks like we will never really be clear of the possibility of other wars - North Korea, Russia, China and Iran - as long as there are evil men in this world - war is a possibility - and we train men to kill -
Deterrence is not the issue. Stopping the attacker is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
May not deter a madman but they may be able to kill him and reduce the fatalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Most of the strategy of the US has been simply keep the "BAD GUYS" off and as far away from US soil as they can. Sounds simple but it turns into a real tangled mess very quickly. The US did not go to Vietnam to protect the South from the north. They went to help France, because it fit into the over all strategies at the time to prevent the spread of the "Commies". Japan was also not comfortable with having a Chinese controlled country so close to the Sea of Japan and their shipping lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Or kill more students as there would be bullets flying from many directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Remind me to never go hunting with you. You seem to believe muzzle control and aiming is impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Listen, there are a lot of "What if" statements floating around but the fact is that there were 4 fully trained police officers waiting outside while the shooting happened. People are not wired to run to danger, they are wired for survival first. You put a teacher who knows guns in a situation where they are being shot at and think they will make a rational decision on what to do next? Expect them to shoot back trying to get the shooter to stop shooting at them. You put this together with a few hundred students running around while the shooting in going on and you think that there will not be an increased risk of collateral damage? Now you take every teacher in that school with a firearm, shooting at the danger, which they may not even be able to determine what it is due to all the commotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Snowwalker, how you can even start to equate a shootout with a pile of people with guns with no experience to a hunting situation is really a head scratcher.
Give them all guns, fine, see what happens. Give everyone at every event in the US a couple pistols and an AR-15 with a collection of 30rd magazines and see what happens.
Falling back on emotion when you can't back up your "feelings" with facts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Agree with Fox on all the What if's going on. So say you do arm will say 5 or 6 teachers with Handguns at a school with 30 teachers and roughly 1000 students and a Shooter with an AR-15 comes into the school firing off rounds are those 5 armed teachers supposed to go all Rambo and confront the shooter, or try and hide the kids in the room and shoot if the shooter enters their room ? So take first instance, they go after shooter and get shot, now you have a classroom of sitting ducks for the shooter. They stay in classroom to protect their students, now shooter is still walking around the school and who knows how many classroom with teachers without guns he comes across, same result, sitting duck kids. So to me it sounds like people are saying that X amount of dead kids is Okay because we armed the teachers, so where do you draw that line with how many dead kids is acceptable, is it 10, 15, 20. To me the answer is make actually Getting into the schools in the first place harder, maglocks on doors bullet proof glass at the entranceways etc. etc. at most 1 armed security Guard by that entrance. Also look at banning or making it very hard to get your hands on an assault Rifle. So back to a Teacher having a Gun and being trained, say he or she didn't have an incident for 10 years or more , does anyone know if they would remember what to do or how they would react, probably freeze like those supposedly trained police did, I just find it hard that your behind a door and you hear shots being fired say right in front of your door and you are running out that door to confront him. Bottom line is arming teachers in a big school of 1000 students , to me anyway is still coming up with a certain amount of dead students, but from listening to a few on here thats okay, until it was your kid that was on that acceptable list.
Arming teachers isn't a good idea but allowing teachers to be armed might not be a bad thing. If we remove the title (teacher) and replace it with individual then it comes across a little differently.
My understanding and I may be wrong but I think there are many individuals in the US that walk around everyday of their life with a firearm as that is how they were taught/learned brought up to do so. Now I am speculating here but those individuals are probably allowed to go to work with their concealed weapon.
Now some of them (law abiding individuals) might be asking, why can't I take my gun to work (which happens to be a school) with me? I am giving up my freedom and putting my life at risk by not being allowed to do so. Why am I being restricted....
It is hard to judge others when growing up so differently.......................but I think even if all the legal guns in the US were handed in tomorrow, this kind of killing wouldn't stop right away. It would take generations (new born children-new way of thinking} before any real change would take place...Just my 2 cents..
Mac you can only think of two possible ways for teachers to act. Running thru the hallway like clowns, or hiding under the deck. You make the hallways sound like a maze of curves, deadends and blind corners. Every school or college I have ever been in has straight hallways. Shooting range straight if you know what I mean.
If you can't understand how a person could stand themself in danger, then leave it to us that will.
You are correct that the first and best way is to stop them before they can get into the school, but the Anti's shout that option down just as hard as arming teachers, or having armed guards at the school.
They seem to think guns have a gravitational effect on other guns and pull them all together.
One thing that is happening as we discuss this here is that large corporations are withdrawing theirr support of the NRA. Banks, large car rental agencies, airlines that gave discounts to nra members will no longer sponsor those incentives. Hopefully this will give the nra executives some cause to stop and think out their stance on gun legislation. That at least would be a small step forward.
I doubt it. The NRA knows that you can't give the gun grabbers one inch or they'll take a mile. There's ample proof to to back that up. Democrats and liberals have gone above and beyond with half whacked legislation proposals that even their own 10 year Obama Administration majority governments wouldn't pass (thankfully,to their credit,at least,in some cases). So,corporations are cancelling NRA member discounts. Big hairy deal. The NRA will pick up another 5 million members in the coming weeks with gun sales going though the roof just from the liberal backlash of that,alone. The frustrating part of all this is in the next two weeks,some of the kids from Florida will lobby their state governments,politicians will pay lip service to it,The NRA will wrap itself in Old Glory yelling "From my cold dead hands...." and after all that,crickets just like after Columbine,Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Frustrating is right T21, what should- could they do, to stop this cycle of madness? Anything? Doing nothing is not working.
I think if they introduced a system like our PAL/RPAL that would be s good start and the NRA would save face by endorsing it. Fighting against proper storage,training and background checks will eventually sink the NRA. The idea that everybody should be allowed to own guns is insane. I say train them, do proper background checks and if they pass leave them alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
They run safe storage campaigns in the states all the time. One thing the NRA stresses to all it's members and everyone they train or talk to is safe storage.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I think we are just seeing the early rumblings of a nation wide movement?Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...220-story.html
Once this catches on, if it does, the politicians will have to listen, and act? The NRA be damned, they will just look silly trying to defend themselves against a few million kids? Interesting times ahead.
The Bolshevik revolution begins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmoose
All those kids that are being targetted in schools will grow up. They could very well be the next generation that puts the end to the political dominance the NRA now enjoys. If the nra can't see that then they deserve to crash and burn.
Four states already have a form of licensing: Massachusetts, Illinois, Hawaii and New Jersey.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
This stuff makes me crazy. I absolutely detest banning anything. That just NEVER works being a knee-jerk reaction. Our schools are easy targets,both here and in the US. When picking up one of the grandkids from elementary school,I was able to walk into the school right up to the classroom to pick him up without so much as someone glancing sideways. His teacher finally asked "Who are you here to pick up?" I could have been anybody with a nefarious intent. Later,I spoke with the Principal and a school board trustee about site security. They looked at me like I had a third eye,obviously,it had never even occurred to them. Finally,I was told that re-working all the schools to secure them would cost millions and it would never be on the agenda. So,there you have it. That's the mentality we'll be up against and some think giving them firearms is a good idea. Nope,no,no,no frickin' way.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
T21, that must have not been in the big bad city, there are security measures in place at the TCDSB. Locked doors, only one access , buzzer on door, must go to office and be recognized before picking up kids etc. But some people, claim those measures are time consuming and unnecessary and rebel against them. You can't please everyone.
I bet NRA membership/donations go up after all this. If that teacher/coach that sacrificed himself had a gun, I bet Cruz wouldn't have taken out as many as he did. Teachers in some states have been armed for a while now.
But will it have more affect than the 'children's movement'? Why does the NRA need more money? For politicians?
So millions of kids are going to march with a bunch of liberals to take away our gun rights - kids who never had a full time job - never gave society anything but fed off of it all their lives - who know very little about life - they are so willing to give away what thousands of men fought and died for - freedom - gun registration like you have up in Canada is a bad idea because once the government knows who got what guns all it takes is passing a law to pick them up and there goes your right to defend yourself and your country -
And for you guys who think letting teachers have guns if they want to is a bad thing - your out in left field - there are a lot of intelligent people who own guns and know how to use them without endangering by standers - gun free zones are a product of progressive , liberal thinking with the long range intent to take all guns away - as a NRA member and someone who often carries a gun people should be glad that people like me are around when the SHTF - I have enough sense to react properly when and if I am ever faced with a shooter - surprise is a big factor and your ability to use cover when confronting a shooter is important - generally the shooter will spray an area with bullets rather than aim at individual targets - whereas I would be aiming at him from behind cover - he wouldn't have a chance - you better believe it
Unless the weapon training for the teachers involve some kind of stress shooting, I foresee am issue with marksmanship if there is ever an incident. Shooting a piece of paper is easy. It is an entire different kettle of fish when your target is shooting back. You have the real possibility of teachers shooting innocents if the US decides to go this route.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
JP, your "gun rights" are contributing to innocent children getting slaughtered? I don't think you have to worry about confiscation, but surely to god you must realize the present system needs changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
If this childrens movement gets rolling, you'll be standing on the sidelines picking the willnots out of your arse wondering what the hell hit you!
The same can be said about cops, but I believe Trump has suggested monthly training for teachers that voluntarily want to carry. Trump is only making suggestions because he wants the states to deal with their own school safety. Just as he gave some states their National Monument land back from Obama, (pot legalization falls into this with Trump as well) he just wants the states to make their own decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Yes, my logic can be applied to police too. I believe the police should be able to effectively shoot a target under duress. Shooting at paper is good for basic marksmanship. The situation the teachers found themselves requires more skills than simply that. I don't believe anyone has spoken about this issue when discussing this plan, they have simply just said "Arm the teachers".Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
Letting the states make their own minds up about this issue is how the US has gotten here in the first place. Unlike our firearm laws, the US firearm laws have a federal component, a state component and individual rights mixed into the issue. How is anyone suppose to agree on anything with everyone's voice shouting at the top of their lungs?
There are a lot of shooting sports that train for that. I know of more then a few that compete in police/combat style pistol sports right here in Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Facts have come out recently that said, NYC cops hit 18% of their targets in a shootout. That's a lot of loose lead flying around.
Now imagine that loose lead fired by a teacher and hitting a child who is supposed to be protected by said teacher. Furthermore, where is the liability going to be placed if a teacher injures/kills a student? Something which needs to be addressed in the lawsuit happy US.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
I am not saying this plan is wrong or right. In my opinion, I believe there are gaping holes in it which make it an extremely flawed plan.
Guess they never had to qualify for their black badge at a club to shoot pistol sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
There’s a huge difference between poking holes in paper and getting shot at !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmoose
There is also the " FACT " that these children will grow and become adults which will be running your country !
That’s probably a good thing. The folks running it now aren’t doing so well !Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Just subscribed to the NRA today. [emoji16]
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Does anybody see it getting better ??Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
No one is ok with children getting slaughtered - but it is stupid to pass laws that will not take guns away from bad guys but will take guns away from good guys - if the school wasn't a gun free zone things could have turned out much differently - yes that is true -these kids will someday run the country - that terrifies me but then there is always the chance that they will wise up as they grow older and have to take on responsibilities - me personally - I wouldn't be around to worry
Remember most of the problems our country has is because of the democrats pushing their liberal agenda - at one time we had institutions where mentally sick people could be housed - the liberals did away with that - we were not in debt the way we are today - they caused that to happen - our welfare programs are bankrupting the country - they did that - criminals are given a slap on the wrist instead of big jail time - they created sanctuary cities where criminals can hid from the law enforcement - illegal immigrants come into the country so that the democrats can get more votes - if you want to blame anyone for the shape our country is in look no further then the liberal democrats - Trump is trying to change things but it will take a long time because many of these problems are so entrenched in our society
And finally - we have the constitutional right to bear arms - we consider that is a basic right of every person to be able to defend themselves - even from the government if necessary - if states or cities enact laws that make it very difficult for a law bidding citizen to obtain a firearm the law in unconstitutional and will be thrown out - I have no problem with not allowing criminals, mentally sick or dangerous people from getting guns - background checks should be improved - the NRA had pushed for such laws - they also pushed for automatic minimum sentences for criminals who use a gun when committing a crime thus taking the sentencing away from liberal judges who give lenient sentences - there are a lot of laws on the books concerning criminals using guns but they are not applied as they should be - just look at illegal immigrants - it is against the law to enter our country without going through proper channels but nobody enforces the law - somethings got to change -
Another liberal approach to things -http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/02/26/los-angeles-burbs-crack-down-on-huge-homeless-camp-near-disneyland-fearing-new-skid-row.html