Not Shooting Birds

I have a dog that has been hunted over for 6 years. Never had a problem with him. Still don't have a problem. The problem seems to be me. Last couple of times out he has pointed 14 birds. Problem: bush is still really thick so I either don't get a shot off or I miss (just a few times). My question. Does the absence of actually shooting down birds (repeatedly) negatively affect the dogs ability/desire to hunt? I have read that it can when the dog is young and still learning. Just wondering if it matters at all with older, experienced/finished dogs (which this one is). Perhaps I am worrying over nothing?

Think your worrying too much. For me the greatest reward for a pointer should be given for pointing, and staying steady too flush. If you missed the bird take a moment to praise the dog for a job well done.

Seen more than 1 dog ruined by focusing/rewarding the dog for bringing the bird back at all cost.\
Now where is the pictures of the dog:thumbup:

Field trial pointing dogs don't retrieve, some of the big farms/plantations run pointers to find birds and point, after the shot, they send labs to pickup the birds

Don't worry about it. In my experience it will not effect their desire to hunt.

Thanks for the replies. As requested, a couple pictures of Jupiter!

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Originally Posted by bdog

some of the big farms/plantations run pointers to find birds and point, after the shot, they send labs to pickup the birds

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Yup! :-)

Welcome to the forum. Not getting to retrieve is not a problem .

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Originally Posted by Deep Water

Thanks for the replies. As requested, a couple pictures of Jupiter!

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That's what we are talking about. That dude doesn't need birds his mouth to be happy.

Great looking dog. If looks could tell, I'd say all business right there. And like the others have said, no need to worry. Finding and pointing out a bird for you is all that he needs to do...

If hunting ability came from how many grouse I actually kill my dog would've quit 5 years ago lol. Hunting a lot of the time is rewarding itself.

Here is my comment and my comment comes from a Labrador retriever trainer’s point of view that knows little to nothing about upland dog training. However both types of dogs will be trained following proven sequences and will be conditioned to meet those standards of the sequences…

To my point… The word/term that you will hear throughout the retriever’s life from puppy to retirement is BALANCE (a crude summary; if the dog is too wild on retrieves than more obedience is needed and the opposite is true, if the dog is not wild to retrieve than less obedience and more retrieves again a very crude description).

So I would like to believe that your scenario will have a negative impact on the dog short term. Meaning if your dog is conditioned to point, then retrieve in a high excitement environment like actual hunting and it is being denied the retrieve due to not killing birds (happens to us all) than yes I believe it will affect the dog negatively and balance is needed.

Like I said before I know little about upland dog training and I can only offer up a simple suggestion for the balance aspect. That would be throw a bird for the dog to complete the retrieve or duplicate the scenario in training guaranteeing the retrieve. Again this is very crude advice…

I suppose if my hunting lab was repeatedly denied retrieves in the marsh due to my lack of aim and I demanded everything of him while he sat steady. Then I promise you I would throw a simple bumper back at the truck or guarantee success when training the following day.

There are many times in a dogs hunting life,[retrievers] in which they do not retrieve , not only due to it's owners poor shooting, but also to the fact that ducks or geese do not always commit and there is no shooting done .
In the meantime your dog only hears you calling either the ducks or geese, watches them with eager anticipation and then, nothing, so they just wait till the next time , it doesn't do them any harm, they are just happy to be out there with you.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

There are many times in a dogs hunting life,[retrievers] in which they do not retrieve , not only due to it's owners poor shooting, but also to the fact that ducks or geese do not always commit and there is no shooting done .
In the meantime your dog only hears you calling either the ducks or geese, watches them with eager anticipation and then, nothing, so they just wait till the next time , it doesn't do them any harm, they are just happy to be out there with you.

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i agree with “they are just happy to be out there with you” part and there’s no arguing that. However I still believe that a finished upland dog like the one the OP is referring that has been trained to a high standard and those high standards are applied while hunting will be negatively affected by consecutively being denied the retrieve
Whether it’s an upland dog or a duck dog when the dog complies to the high standards then reward the dog with the retrieve/bird. If it’s not possible during the hunt than guarantee success in training.
I know my dog is happy to hunt with me but I also know he’s happier with a bird in his mouth. So if I can’t kill a bird while hunting he will get a bird in training.

Respectfully

Good lookin' dog!!!!

It doesn't matter to my dogs and doesn't seem to affect any dogs I've been around.

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Originally Posted by G note

i agree with “they are just happy to be out there with you” part and there’s no arguing that. However I still believe that a finished upland dog like the one the OP is referring that has been trained to a high standard and those high standards are applied while hunting will be negatively affected by consecutively being denied the retrieve
Whether it’s an upland dog or a duck dog when the dog complies to the high standards then reward the dog with the retrieve/bird. If it’s not possible during the hunt than guarantee success in training.
I know my dog is happy to hunt with me but I also know he’s happier with a bird in his mouth. So if I can’t kill a bird while hunting he will get a bird in training.

Respectfully

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I tend to disagree with your statement [bolded part].
Our dogs Labradors, are involved/participate in "Hunt Tests " after a dog does his or her run, they have to sit and " Honour " the next dogs run. They have to [ must ]sit, mark and not move and they do not get to retrieve . There are also " poison birds ", which are marked but not to be retrieved. This does not hurt the dog what so ever in any way shape or form, this is "part of the hunt test. "

Also , when hunting there are times when your dog may not be able to make the retrieve "safely" and you yourself have to make the retrieve, and again your dog just sits there without retrieving just watching. It is all part of hunting and your dog no matter how highly trained is not always able to make the retrieve, and it with not hurt him/her in any way.

Well I work my gsp on spring woodcock every year and of course it’s no shooting. But that doesn’t seem to effect her enthusiasm to find the next bird. You will be fine and nice looking shorthair.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I tend to disagree with your statement [bolded part].
Our dogs Labradors, are involved/participate in "Hunt Tests " after a dog does his or her run, they have to sit and " Honour " the next dogs run. They have to [ must ]sit, mark and not move and they do not get to retrieve . This does not hurt the dog what so ever in any way shape or form, this is "part of the hunt test. "

Also , when hunting there are times when your dog may not be able to make the retrieve "safely" and you yourself have to make the retrieve, and again your dog just sits there without retrieving just watching. It is all part of hunting and your dog no matter how highly trained is not always able to make the retrieve, and it with not hurt him/her in any way.

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I feel I need to be clear here, I don't believe that missing 14 consecutive birds while hunting will hurt a upland machine like Jupiter's ability or desire in anyway!
However I do feel that he would be out of balance as the bird is everything to the dog (it is to my retriever and I assume it is to Jupiter). So rewarding the dog with a retrieve of a bumper immediately after or what ever reward would be suited for Jupiter would help achieve balance. Or guaranteeing success in training with a bird would also achieve balance.

Like many have said they are not worried and the dog will be fine and I'm sure they are correct. For me it's good training to keep the dog balanced and it would certainly not harm the dog to throw it a bird.

I wouldn't compare a honour to conservatively being denied 14 birds while hunting in the field. Not getting the bird in a honour is a taught sequence that the dog has learned and understands. During the honour of a hunt test you have cued the dog verbally "no bird" and perhaps you have cued the dog by placing the dog on your non retrieving side and also used a sit command. Basically the dog knows he's not getting a bird in the honour and your right not get that bird would have no impact what so ever. while hunting the dog has complied and done its job the reward is the bird and consecutively deining 14 retrieves that it expects to get puts that dog out of balance. If it was a day of hunting here and there when he/we miss a bird or the birds are not to be found then sure I would call that just hunting and no concerns but 14 denied retrieves would concern me.

That's just me and I'm no expert.

What is he going to do?
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The Op said the dog had 14 finds/points, only a couple of shots/misses, I'm sure the dog is still well balanced

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Originally Posted by bdog

The Op said the dog had 14 finds/points, only a couple of shots/misses, I'm sure the dog is still well balanced

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Thanks for bringing it to the attention of G note he apparently missed that in reading the OP'S POST.

I think what would negatively impact the dog is many consecutive hunts where the dog gets no contacts. Then it would be hard to keep motivation high and the dog not think it's just out for a walk. As long as the dog is finding birds - even if it's not many, that's more than enough. I shoot very few grouse each season - partly due to misses and partly due to me just wanting to watch the dog and not impact bird numbers too much in an area that already has few birds. I make sure I take a couple throughout the season for him to get the whole experience but at almost 6 years old he knows what he's there for whether he retrieves or not. As others have mentioned I also run him in the spring with a blank pistol. My dog is a hunting fool. If you take him anywhere he's hunting. Yes initial training and bird exposure is key to any training program but the dog's work ethic is a bigger piece of the puzzle than just shooting lots of birds.

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Originally Posted by Deep Water

I have a dog that has been hunted over for 6 years. Never had a problem with him. Still don't have a problem. The problem seems to be me. Last couple of times out he has pointed 14 birds. Problem: bush is still really thick so I either don't get a shot off or I miss (just a few times). My question. Does the absence of actually shooting down birds (repeatedly) negatively affect the dogs ability/desire to hunt? I have read that it can when the dog is young and still learning. Just wondering if it matters at all with older, experienced/finished dogs (which this one is). Perhaps I am worrying over nothing?

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Originally Posted by bdog

The Op said the dog had 14 finds/points, only a couple of shots/misses, I'm sure the dog is still well balanced

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Before I started any comments I did read the OP’s post and realised that he missed “just a few times” the question being asked; does the absence of actually shooting down birds (repeatedly) negatively affect the dog’s ability/desire to hunt? My answer to the question is no I don’t believe the absence of missing birds will hurt the dog’s ability or its desire.

I’ll try and explain my view one more time before I wash my hands with it. It’s clear I am missing something as everyone else disagrees with my statements.
If success is determined by just pointing and perhaps flushing to the 14 birds then the dog has been successful. However and this is where I could be simply wrong regarding Jupiter’s training making my whole theory wrong.
If the 6 year old dog is trained with high standards and negative corrections are applied for noncompliance during training and the sequence during training is POINT + FLUSH (human or dog) + SHOT + RETRIEVE and then you take Jupiter into the field and consecutively deny the retrieve for whatever reasons
like POINT + FLUSH + NO SHOT+____
POINT + FLUSH + MISSED SHOT + NO RETRIEVE
The dog is missing something an I believe the dog is out balance and simply needs a bird! Its a simple fix and the dog will not lose desire or ability

Like I said this is my view and it seems that I’m off or wrong somewhere but I can assure you if it was my dog and he has received negative pressure during training throughout his training carrier regarding this sequence or pressure in the field I would reward him with a bird (through training or other means) and I would not let him be denied again.

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[COLOR=#000000]I’ll try and explain my view one more time before I wash my hands with it. It’s clear I am missing something as everyone else d[COLOR=#000000]isagrees with my statements.

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Doesn't that tell you something?

Well , it's your dog, you do what you think is best for your dog,it's your prerogative, the rest of us will carry on as
always have , after all we are dealing with our dogs.

Thanks for all the comments. they are all helpful and put my mind at ease. I now realize I worry/panic too much. I'll be sure to let Jupiter know his looks received a few compliments. He likes hearing that!

I think g note's post is being taken out of context a bit. He has a lab. For a retriever trained to retrieve... the retrieve is the ultimate reward. But for many other bird dogs just the contact and a nose full of scent is the reward. The distinction needs to be made here and what the individual dog sees as the big reward (ie. What the owner has shaped into being the big reward). My spaniel is similar to a lab as a lot of his training has been from a retriever perspective. I believe that when he does get a retrieve it does make it a bit more special for him but that could be me putting my own feelings on it. Rewards are not always so cut and dried as unfortunately the dog can't tell you in plain English what they want the most. In the end most probably see the biggest reward as a strong pat and an excited "good dog".

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Originally Posted by Deep Water

Thanks for all the comments. they are all helpful and put my mind at ease. I now realize I worry/panic too much. I'll be sure to let Jupiter know his looks received a few compliments. He likes hearing that!

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And that's all the reward a good gun dog needs. Knowing he has pleased you with everything he does.

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Originally Posted by Cass

I think g note's post is being taken out of context a bit. He has a lab. For a retriever trained to retrieve... the retrieve is the ultimate reward. But for many other bird dogs just the contact and a nose full of scent is the reward. The distinction needs to be made here and what the individual dog sees as the big reward (ie. What the owner has shaped into being the big reward). My spaniel is similar to a lab as a lot of his training has been from a retriever perspective. I believe that when he does get a retrieve it does make it a bit more special for him but that could be me putting my own feelings on it. Rewards are not always so cut and dried as unfortunately the dog can't tell you in plain English what they want the most. In the end most probably see the biggest reward as a strong pat and an excited "good dog".

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Could not have said it better. A good bird dog is out to please you not themselves so let them know it.

Regardless of the type of gun dog you have there is an underlying principle common to all.......the ABC's of dog training.
A-attitude
B-balance
C-control
I would suggest that when examining a question like the OP's we use this type of framework to determine if there is an impact on the dog. The handler is in the best position to make the determination of that. I really don't think missing a few birds will distort things that much but watch closely things like 'control'. Do you begin to see some behaviour patterns....things like being wild/chasing flying bird/fail to recall/poor attitude in hunt....list goes on.
If you do begin to see any behavioural change especially as it relates to the standards you set for your dog, then be prepared to adjust training.

Problem for most is that there are very weak standards set for the dogs they own. Then once a problem arises you have no base or foundation to review the issue and correct and dog continues to practise a fault to perfection!

Good luck!