Archery calf tag ???

Hi folks.

I'm thinking of trying archery moose hunting this year and applying for a calf tag in a WMU adjoining the one I usually rifle hunt in. When I apply for a tag in the rifle hunt, my tag is always good for a calf in any WMU except those with a calf draw whether I am successful in the draw or not (usually not because I hunt alone). So If I am successful in getting an archery calf tag and don't harvest a calf in the archery season, is it still good for a calf in the rifle season in any WMU except for those with a calf draw?

Apologies if this has been discussed already, but I did a search and didn't come up with a match.

There is no calf tag in archery. Calf season is not open during archery season in most WMU.

Another bonehead MNR initiative.
Moose herd declining so we'll protect the calves and give them a chance to grow.
We'll take calves away from the archers (lowest success rate and lower hunter numbers) and leave them in season for the first 2 weeks of the rifle season (highest hunter numbers and way more range and firepower).

It gets better! We'll also keep issuing huge numbers of cow archery tags so that if any archers are successful then we'll orphan the calves and let them meet their demise will the predators or the gun season guys.

How is an advisory board going to work with this mentality.

An MNR insider told me this was done to stop poaching by northerners (non native) because too many pretend archers were out there hunting for an archery adult moose because someone they knew back in town had a tag. The calf tag allowed them all the latitude they needed to poach.

So now they all ride around legally calving during gun season and find an adult tag if and when they shoot an adult. If they find a cow then the whole family gets whacked. Later the entire party meets up but some need to rent a hall to accommodate the party size!

But the cow tags right across the board still has me puzzled.

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Another bonehead MNR initiative.
Moose herd declining so we'll protect the calves and give them a chance to grow.
We'll take calves away from the archers (lowest success rate and lower hunter numbers) and leave them in season for the first 2 weeks of the rifle season (highest hunter numbers and way more range and firepower).

It gets better! We'll also keep issuing huge numbers of cow archery tags so that if any archers are successful then we'll orphan the calves and let them meet their demise will the predators or the gun season guys.

How is an advisory board going to work with this mentality.

An MNR insider told me this was done to stop poaching by northerners (non native) because too many pretend archers were out there hunting for an archery adult moose because someone they knew back in town had a tag. The calf tag allowed them all the latitude they needed to poach.

So now they all ride around legally calving during gun season and find an adult tag if and when they shoot an adult. If they find a cow then the whole family gets whacked.

But the cow tags right across the board still has me puzzled.

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So, close everything but hunting for bulls, makes the most sense and I have been yelling this for a while, no dime will go to a moose hunt in this province until they change these regulations, I am eyeing a yukon moose hunt though in a couple years if everything goes to plan.

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Originally Posted by Fox

So, close everything but hunting for bulls, makes the most sense and I have been yelling this for a while, no dime will go to a moose hunt in this province until they change these regulations, I am eyeing a yukon moose hunt though in a couple years if everything goes to plan.

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If we are going to harvest cows and calfs!!!!!!!!

What if we went to antlerless and antlered for moose also. Would allow hunters to make a conscious decision about what they are going to harvest and take away the misidentification aspect of cow and calfs.

Might mean that you dont hunt one year because your group might not have a tag. But seems like a better way to manage if we are going to allow the harvest of calves and cows.

From a management perspective they would have to get there numbers correct on population modeling and mandatory reporting each year should assist in the subsequent allocation in a perfect world any way.

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Originally Posted by Fox

So, close everything but hunting for bulls, makes the most sense and I have been yelling this for a while, no dime will go to a moose hunt in this province until they change these regulations, I am eyeing a yukon moose hunt though in a couple years if everything goes to plan.

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If we are going to harvest cows and calfs!!!!!!!!

What if we went to antlerless and antlered for moose also. Would allow hunters to make a conscious decision about what they are going to harvest and take away the misidentification aspect of cow and calfs.

Might mean that you dont hunt one year because your group might not have a tag. But seems like a better way to manage if we are going to allow the harvest of calves and cows.

From a management perspective they would have to get there numbers correct on population modeling and mandatory reporting each year should assist in the subsequent allocation in a perfect world any way.


I would suggest this for both archery and gun hunting.

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Originally Posted by Buckshot517

If we are going to harvest cows and calfs!!!!!!!!

What if we went to antlerless and antlered for moose also. Would allow hunters to make a conscious decision about what they are going to harvest and take away the misidentification aspect of cow and calfs.

Might mean that you dont hunt one year because your group might not have a tag. But seems like a better way to manage if we are going to allow the harvest of calves and cows.

From a management perspective they would have to get there numbers correct on population modeling and mandatory reporting each year should assist in the subsequent allocation in a perfect world any way.

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I would think that you would have to assume that the antlerless is a female, therefore the antlerless validation numbers are simple to consider.

Look to most of the other places there are moose hunts, nobody allows free range on calves.

Based on a 50/50 split of gender on animals you have to believe that 50% of the calves shot are female and therefore can never become calves.

Why not have a minimum size bull hunt, put in a draw system like you have in many other jurisdictions, that is really the only way to build up the population, an open calf hunt is stupid and has always been stupid.

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Originally Posted by Bearhunter

There is no calf tag in archery. Calf season is not open during archery season in most WMU.

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There is an archery calf tag draw in WMU 48, 55A 55B and 57. I believe one of these areas is where the OP was implying he wanted to apply for. And yes if you draw the calf tag for archery only season and do not fill it you can still hunt calf in the limited calf season during the gun hunt in another WMU.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I would think that you would have to assume that the antlerless is a female, therefore the antlerless validation numbers are simple to consider.

Look to most of the other places there are moose hunts, nobody allows free range on calves.

Based on a 50/50 split of gender on animals you have to believe that 50% of the calves shot are female and therefore can never become calves.

Why not have a minimum size bull hunt, put in a draw system like you have in many other jurisdictions, that is really the only way to build up the population, an open calf hunt is stupid and has always been stupid.

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I dont think Ontario will ever adopt a antler point system. If we did there would be a ton of people calling saying they shot the wrong animal or just leaving them. We are already seeing that just look at the stuff in the media last fall lots of moose seized for the wrong animal. When bulls are shot as cows and cows are shot as bulls and then the miss identification between cows and calfs is prevalent also. We need to mitigate that in some manner. I dont think everyone will be happy with what we choose but I don't think OFAH and the general hunting community would go for severe restrictions. They seem to be about creating hunting opportunities the reality is we need a drastic change but need to find something that will please the masses.

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Originally Posted by Buckshot517

I dont think Ontario will ever adopt a antler point system. If we did there would be a ton of people calling saying they shot the wrong animal or just leaving them. We are already seeing that just look at the stuff in the media last fall lots of moose seized for the wrong animal. When bulls are shot as cows and cows are shot as bulls and then the miss identification between cows and calfs is prevalent also. We need to mitigate that in some manner. I dont think everyone will be happy with what we choose but I don't think OFAH and the general hunting community would go for severe restrictions. They seem to be about creating hunting opportunities the reality is we need a drastic change but need to find something that will please the masses.

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So the way to save the moose population is to keep things as they are?

An antlerless draw system sure worked for Deer. Why not for Moose? To make sure that works,though,we need to eliminate the calf harvest,completely and return to a bi-annual hunt south of the French-Mattawa.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

An antlerless draw system sure worked for Deer. Why not for Moose? To make sure that works,though,we need to eliminate the calf harvest,completely and return to a bi-annual hunt south of the French-Mattawa.

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Absolutely nothing wrong with that idea!
I well remember when Moose Hunting was opened up in the south, we only hunted them every other year.

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Originally Posted by Fox

So the way to save the moose population is to keep things as they are?

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No thats not what i am saying.

And sorry we have hijacked your thread on moose tags, its evolved a bit.

I am saying we need changes i am just throwing one piece of the pie out there.

This is something that would allow hunters to make and ethical conscious decision as to what animal they would harvest. As it stands now if you are hunting norther ontario you have a two week window where you can harvest a calf. If you have a cow tag and hunt opening weekend you can harvest a cow, should you choose to. If a cow and calf walk out you may only harvest the cow, in my eyes you are probably killing several moose as the cow is probably pregnant and you are orphaning a calf, maybe it will die maybe it will survive. But why not be able to make that ethical moral decision and harvest what you feel is the correct animal. A antlerless tag would allow you to make that decision.

Or there is the option as you have stated no cows and calfs.

If you look at stuff in the media last year there was a pile of moose seized, wonder how many of them were hunters shooting the wrong animal. Every year you hear of someone shooting a cow for a calf or vice versa. Then there are those of biff a bull saying it was a cow.

https://www.sudbury.com/around-the-n...ovince-1120183

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thund...rges-1.4880269

These two things in the media are from last fall, different areas and time frames, not sure if a antler point system or antler size system would work in Ontario. I am sure a bunch of these animals were shot as a result of not confirming what you are squeezing the trigger on. We have a great resource it just need a bit of an adjustment and hopefully we can get it on track.

I am going to try and make it to one of these meetings there are holding about moose management. If i don't i shouldn't complain.

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer....unting-review/

We all should be part of the solution for those that can't make it hopefully there is something online that will allow people to put there ideas forward and be heard.

Should be interesting to see where things go in the future.

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Originally Posted by Buckshot517

No thats not what i am saying.

And sorry we have hijacked your thread on moose tags, its evolved a bit.

I am saying we need changes i am just throwing one piece of the pie out there.

This is something that would allow hunters to make and ethical conscious decision as to what animal they would harvest. As it stands now if you are hunting norther ontario you have a two week window where you can harvest a calf. If you have a cow tag and hunt opening weekend you can harvest a cow, should you choose to. If a cow and calf walk out you may only harvest the cow, in my eyes you are probably killing several moose as the cow is probably pregnant and you are orphaning a calf, maybe it will die maybe it will survive. But why not be able to make that ethical moral decision and harvest what you feel is the correct animal. A antlerless tag would allow you to make that decision.

Or there is the option as you have stated no cows and calfs.

If you look at stuff in the media last year there was a pile of moose seized, wonder how many of them were hunters shooting the wrong animal. Every year you hear of someone shooting a cow for a calf or vice versa. Then there are those of biff a bull saying it was a cow.

https://www.sudbury.com/around-the-n...ovince-1120183

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thund...rges-1.4880269

These two things in the media are from last fall, different areas and time frames, not sure if a antler point system or antler size system would work in Ontario. I am sure a bunch of these animals were shot as a result of not confirming what you are squeezing the trigger on. We have a great resource it just need a bit of an adjustment and hopefully we can get it on track.

I am going to try and make it to one of these meetings there are holding about moose management. If i don't i shouldn't complain.

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer....unting-review/

We all should be part of the solution for those that can't make it hopefully there is something online that will allow people to put there ideas forward and be heard.

Should be interesting to see where things go in the future.

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I am pretty sure I hijacked the thread, just very concerned that my daughter may never see a moose in Ontario.

If you ask any farmer how their herd would do if they killed off an unlimited number of calves and limit the bulls and cows, they would not be able to maintain the herd, there needs to be controls on the babies. I guess I do not see any reason why they should not lock it all down. I know that people would throw in the bears, wolves and natives argument but if non-native hunters shoot 2000 calves in the province that is 2000 calves that did not make it on top of the ones shot by natives and eaten by bears/wolves, just because you shot it does not mean the bear/wolf does not go kill another one, same with native hunters. That 2000 calves is probably pretty close to 1000 cows as well, so 1000 less cows to reproduce, that gets significant fast.

Maybe not the antler restriction and maybe not closing cows/calves in all areas but a quota like the Antlerless deer makes sense, or even on top of that a requirement of a minimum number of tags per animal, like 3 hunters for a single bull in some areas, Quebec does it this way.

I just want to be able to see them in the future when out of a fishing trip and be able to hunt them here at some point down the road.

Slippery slope!

The MNR counts on the revenue from the Moose draw to fund the budget.
The sensible thing to do & not considering financial impact is to ban shooting antlerless moose straight across the board to let them recover.
With that said the science shows the cows & calves need to be protected however for financial reasons they will keep it as it is to ensure the current revenue stream.

Very sad indeed!

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Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter

Slippery slope!

The MNR counts on the revenue from the Moose draw to fund the budget.
The sensible thing to do & not considering financial impact is to ban shooting antlerless moose straight across the board to let them recover.
With that said the science shows the cows & calves need to be protected however for financial reasons they will keep it as it is to ensure the current revenue stream.

Very sad indeed!

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I agree, but the issue is the unregulated hunt, IMHO. You will never get good recruitment unless unregulated hunts are “regulated”. First Nations have always enjoyed their hunts. Then along came a Supreme Court decision that now allows Métis hunters the same rights as FN. That only exacerbated the problems. Until the government gets a handle on these hunts, there will be no real increase in moose numbers, IMHO ! That’s not to mention the issues of predation. The last few years have seen a huge increase in wolf numbers in the areas we hunt in NW Ont.. Typically you can’t go anywhere without seeing wolf sign, more than ever before.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I agree, but the issue is the unregulated hunt, IMHO. You will never get good recruitment unless unregulated hunts are “regulated”. First Nations have always enjoyed their hunts. Then along came a Supreme Court decision that now allows Métis hunters the same rights as FN. That only exacerbated the problems. Until the government gets a handle on these hunts, there will be no real increase in moose numbers, IMHO ! That’s not to mention the issues of predation. The last few years have seen a huge increase in wolf numbers in the areas we hunt in NW Ont.. Typically you can’t go anywhere without seeing wolf sign, more than ever before.

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So you think that we should not change any of the hunting regs until the FN hunt is changed? That does not make any sense, if the FN hunt is hunting them on top of non-FN hunters then you are still killing more animals and hurting the population more than just having the FN hunt.

The slippery slope is the one that leads to moose no longer being present in Ontario.

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Originally Posted by Fox

So you think that we should not change any of the hunting regs until the FN hunt is changed? That does not make any sense, if the FN hunt is hunting them on top of non-FN hunters then you are still killing more animals and hurting the population more than just having the FN hunt.

The slippery slope is the one that leads to moose no longer being present in Ontario.

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We will not see any appreciable levels of recruitment until all hunting is regulated. I’ve been hunting moose over 35 years in the NW. The only real increases I have see are Wolf numbers and unregulated hunter numbers... Im sure there are contributing factors such as the lack of wood cutting, which impacts habitat and climate change. Those issues can’t be controlled.
The impact that the calf season change on moose numbers hasn’t been quantified yet. It will be interesting to know what that impact will be in the coming years. I wholeheartedly agree that cow and calf harvest numbers need to be limited further for ALL hunters...

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I agree, but the issue is the unregulated hunt, IMHO. You will never get good recruitment unless unregulated hunts are “regulated”. First Nations have always enjoyed their hunts. Then along came a Supreme Court decision that now allows Métis hunters the same rights as FN. That only exacerbated the problems. Until the government gets a handle on these hunts, there will be no real increase in moose numbers, IMHO ! That’s not to mention the issues of predation. The last few years have seen a huge increase in wolf numbers in the areas we hunt in NW Ont.. Typically you can’t go anywhere without seeing wolf sign, more than ever before.

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I would tend to agree with you on all your points but we really have no solid data on First Nations hunting and what numbers they are actually taking be it Metis or otherwise.I believe the MNR normally takes a 10% across the board for illegal kills/poaching.So if we take that figure off for say none native hunters we still do not have a picture for native/metis kills. I am not saying they are not a contributing factor but to what extent.The MNR should be keeping some track but pretty sure they are not.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I would tend to agree with you on all your points but we really have no solid data on First Nations hunting and what numbers they are actually taking be it Metis or otherwise.I believe the MNR normally takes a 10% across the board for illegal kills/poaching.So if we take that figure off for say none native hunters we still do not have a picture for native/metis kills. I am not saying they are not a contributing factor but to what extent.The MNR should be keeping some track but pretty sure they are not.

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We are aware of one “unregulated” hunter that took 9 moose last season. There are many more similar stories. The MNRF are not even allowed to ask them if they have even seen a moose, let alone harvested one...this needs to change.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I agree, but the issue is the unregulated hunt, IMHO. You will never get good recruitment unless unregulated hunts are “regulated”. First Nations have always enjoyed their hunts. Then along came a Supreme Court decision that now allows Métis hunters the same rights as FN. That only exacerbated the problems. Until the government gets a handle on these hunts, there will be no real increase in moose numbers, IMHO ! That’s not to mention the issues of predation. The last few years have seen a huge increase in wolf numbers in the areas we hunt in NW Ont.. Typically you can’t go anywhere without seeing wolf sign, more than ever before.

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You know it. I don’t understand why people don’t see or believe this is the real problem.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

We are aware of one “unregulated” hunter that took 9 moose last season. There are many more similar stories. The MNRF are not even allowed to ask them if they have even seen a moose, let alone harvested one...this needs to change.

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I know many Métis around here that shoot crazy numbers of Moose. What’s worse, they still apply in the Moose draw to give more chances to their license friends. It’s totally out of control. Come for a visit before the gun hunt and travel our bush roads, you will see what’s going on. People need to wake up. Nobody wants to talk about the problem. It will soon be too late.

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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I know many Métis around here that shoot crazy numbers of Moose. What’s worse, they still apply in the Moose draw to give more chances to their license friends. It’s totally out of control. Come for a visit before the gun hunt and travel our bush roads, you will see what’s going on. People need to wake up. Nobody wants to talk about the problem. It will soon be too late.

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We hunted a block in 12b last year. We got checked by a CO who told me that he knew of 7 moose that were shot in that block....all before the season.....go figure!

All things pertaining to FN are federal responsibility. Therein lies the problem. The Feds need to amend The Indian Act to download all responsibility to the provinces. It's like the children of divorced parents who figure out how to play one parent against the other.

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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

You know it. I don’t understand why people don’t see or believe this is the real problem.

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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I know many Métis around here that shoot crazy numbers of Moose. What’s worse, they still apply in the Moose draw to give more chances to their license friends. It’s totally out of control. Come for a visit before the gun hunt and travel our bush roads, you will see what’s going on. People need to wake up. Nobody wants to talk about the problem. It will soon be too late.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

We hunted a block in 12b last year. We got checked by a CO who told me that he knew of 7 moose that were shot in that block....all before the season.....go figure!

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

All things pertaining to FN are federal responsibility. Therein lies the problem. The Feds need to amend The Indian Act to download all responsibility to the provinces. It's like the children of divorced parents who figure out how to play one parent against the other.

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Well I totally agree with your sentiments we cannot get a handle on Moose management unless we can quantify how many Moose are taken by First Nations.

If we cannot get this changed then WE HUNTERS in Ontario would have to take a Collective stand in order to put pressure on the Federal and Provincial Government. So Provincially I would say that we are well placed to push our point but the Provincial Government would need a reason to act for us.

Drastic action would have to be taken such as a boycott the Moose hunt and no buying licenses for a period of time or pressure on MPP,s to speak up for us at the Provincial level.

The hunt boycott for three to say 5 years might self correct the Moose population but its hard to take for us when the First Nations are not doing the same.

In a perfect world both first Nations and rest of us hunters would stop hunting and maybe a 3 year stop would re bound the population.

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Originally Posted by cricket

There is an archery calf tag draw in WMU 48, 55A 55B and 57. I believe one of these areas is where the OP was implying he wanted to apply for. And yes if you draw the calf tag for archery only season and do not fill it you can still hunt calf in the limited calf season during the gun hunt in another WMU.

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Thanks cricket. Yes, I was thinking of applying for archery calf in 48. I hunt rifle season in 50 just south of that.

Seems like my question has touched a nerve with other respondents. :)

Now that the thread is back on track (and I fully agree with the outlier sentiments expressed on population rehab), I also thought of applying for a bow season calf tag in the region I usually hunt for deer, only because odds are good and I could hunt for deer or moose at the same time.

Also, being a solo hunter, an adult moose would pose logistic issues dealing with getting it out of the bush in a timely manner in warm October weather. However, I just can't bring myself to take a calf. I don't even want to take a cow or doe. Unfortunately that means many years of buying moose licenses waiting to get a bull tag as an individual (granted it still doesn't address the logistical recovery issue). I'm so conflicted, lol.