Ontario Proposes a New and Improved Moose Management Program

Found this posted today. Lets see if this "big game management advisory committee" listened to moose hunters, made things easier, simpler and actually looked at moose management vs just hunting opportunities only because without proper moose management there will be no hunting opportunities! Enjoy, grab some popcorn and let the chaos begin!

News release -> https://news.ontario.ca/mnr/en/2019/...t-program.html

EBR Posting -> https://ero.ontario.ca/notice/019-04...183.1553090828

[COLOR=#464646]The Ontario government is taking action to address concerns from hunters on how the province manages its moose population to ensure sustainability and hunting opportunities for future generations.
[COLOR=#464646]Today, John Yakabuski, Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry, and Mike Harris, Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry, announced the government's proposal to revise moose management in the province, based on the recommendations of the Big Game Management Advisory Committee (BGMAC). In Spring 2019, the government tasked BGMAC to advise the province on a path forward. The committee has provided its report to the government, which is now available on ontario.ca/moose-management-review.
[COLOR=#464646]"We are listening to moose hunters across the province, and our proposal is designed to work for the hunting community," said Minister Yakabuski. "I encourage Ontario's hunters to review the proposal and consider its implications on moose populations and future hunting opportunities. I would like to thank BGMAC and the committee's Chair, John Kaplanis, for their dedication and insight on strengthening moose management in Ontario."
[COLOR=#464646]The government's proposal is now available on the Environmental Registry of Ontario for public feedback. An additional proposal to address the committee's recommendation regarding moose predation has also been posted for comment. Interested hunters, members of the public and organizations are invited to review the proposals on the Environmental Registry and provide their comments by September 26, 2019.
[COLOR=#464646]"Our government recognizes the importance of moose hunting to Ontario families and communities," said MPP Harris. "We want to make sure Ontarians can get outdoors and enjoy the sport of hunting, and that these opportunities are available today and long into the future."
Quick Facts

• Moose hunting contributes over $205 million a year to Ontario’s economy.
• The BGMAC committee includes members with diverse knowledge and experience in moose management and quota review, moose hunting, tourist outfitter operations, and experience on wildlife advisory committees.
• BGMAC hosted seven listening sessions in May and June, 2019. Over 600 interested hunters, members of the public and organizations attended these sessions to share their perspectives to develop a path forward. Over 2,000 individuals provided comments through an online survey.
• A summary of input received is contained in BGMAC’s report, available on ontario.ca/moose-management-review.

More licenses less tags, but more draws to enter( more fees?) for moose.

No tags needed for Coyotes or wolves in Northern WMU's, tags still needed except is SOUTHERN Ontario. Hunters still limited to two wolves/coyotes.
Net sum...no impact on wolves, no decrease in predation levels on moose.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

More licenses less tags, but more draws to enter( more fees?) for moose.

No tags needed for Coyotes or wolves in Northern WMU's, tags still needed except is SOUTHERN Ontario. Hunters still limited to two wolves/coyotes.
Net sum...no impact on wolves, no decrease in predation levels on moose.

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Would you mind indicating where have you noticed that will be more licences and less tags. I've noticed that it says " New selective approach" ( does that mean less tags ?). Or maybe you're referring to the fact that all applicants will no longer have a default calf tag ?

I'm still skeptical. More smoke and mirrors because government realizes how much money they have lost in the last few years since guys aren't applying to moose hunt like they used to. No moose is no moose. Although there is a lot I like about the preference point system. But the calf hunt should be cut out.

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Originally Posted by biflora

Would you mind indicating where have you noticed that will be more licences and less tags. I've noticed that it says " New selective approach" ( does that mean less tags ?). Or maybe you're referring to the fact that all applicants will no longer have a default calf tag ?

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They're proposing selling Moose licenses without a tag,so,more hunters can party hunt in a party of up to 10 hunters on one tag. Quite clearly,the number of license sales nearly collapsed after hunters realized there wasn't a hope in hell of getting an adult tag in the draw. They OMNRF is also proposing a nominal fee for applying and charging a "tiered" fee for successful draw applicants according to whichever adult tag they drew with Bull tags the most expensive,Cow tags,next and calf tags the least,although,there's no mention,at this point,how much each tag will actually cost. My guess is the cost of adult tags will greatly increase.

Getting rid of wolf tags is a good step. Granted, only two wolves can be taken. Hopefully, this will result in more wolves shot. With the tag necessity, guys that did get a shot at one, and didn’t have a tag, didn’t shoot. I know that has happened in our group.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Getting rid of wolf tags is a good step. Granted, only two wolves can be taken. Hopefully, this will result in more wolves shot. With the tag necessity, guys that did get a shot at one, and didn’t have a tag, didn’t shoot. I know that has happened in our group.

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I was kind of hoping they'd see the light and cancel the no wolf/coyote hunting townships around Algonquin Park and southern Ontario around The Peterborough Crown Game Preserve and Kawartha Highlands PP for that "Algonquin Wolf" BS. That had to be one of the dumbest decisions to placate the bunny huggers I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I was kind of hoping they'd see the light and cancel the no wolf/coyote hunting townships around Algonquin Park and southern Ontario around The Peterborough Crown Game Preserve and Kawartha Highlands PP for that "Algonquin Wolf" BS. That had to be one of the dumbest decisions to placate the bunny huggers I've ever seen.

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I agree....but I don’t see that happening any time soon. They feel the need to protect those mutt coywolves !!

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

They're proposing selling Moose licenses without a tag,so,more hunters can party hunt in a party of up to 10 hunters on one tag. Quite clearly,the number of license sales nearly collapsed after hunters realized there wasn't a hope in hell of getting an adult tag in the draw. They OMNRF is also proposing a nominal fee for applying and charging a "tiered" fee for successful draw applicants according to whichever adult tag they drew with Bull tags the most expensive,Cow tags,next and calf tags the least,although,there's no mention,at this point,how much each tag will actually cost. My guess is the cost of adult tags will greatly increase.

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Selling licences without tags is pretty much what’s happening now. We had 10, P1 guys and didn’t get a tag..
The nominal fee to enter the draw is what BC has now. If they luck out and get a draw, they then buy a licence. I think this will cut revenue substantially. As far as the increase costs of an adult tag, I don’t see a problem there. I didn’t see a lot of recommendations put forward regarding unregulated non-licenced harvest !! It will be interesting to see what changes are actually made.
I’ve already sent in my two cents !!

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Selling licences without tags is pretty much what’s happening now. We had 10, P1 guys and didn’t get a tag..
The nominal fee to enter the draw is what BC has now. If they luck out and get a draw, they then buy a licence. I think this will cut revenue substantially. As far as the increase costs of an adult tag, I don’t see a problem there. I didn’t see a lot of recommendations put forward regarding unregulated non-licenced harvest !! It will be interesting to see what changes are actually made.
I’ve already sent in my two cents !!

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With selling licenses without a tag,thousands of Moose hunters have given up completely resulting in ZERO revenue. This past year alone saw a 50% drop in sales (this from a confidential informant). It sent a powerful message that people aren't going to pay money for nothing,anymore. It really got the governments attention. On the surface,it looks like they went in to a bit of a panic mode,hence,the pay for an app,then,if a tag is drawn,pay for it,then. A little revenue initially,then,more revenue when tags are paid for is a lot bunch better than NO revenue and for most,permanently. It makes perfect sense. I think it's a far more fair and even system. Full disclosure,it's one of the proposals I made with last years survey,so,I'm glad to see it. I sure hope it works.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Getting rid of wolf tags is a good step. Granted, only two wolves can be taken. Hopefully, this will result in more wolves shot. With the tag necessity, guys that did get a shot at one, and didn’t have a tag, didn’t shoot. I know that has happened in our group.

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I just don't think it will make any real dent in the Wolf numbers in the WMU's up north. Yes I know that if there was no limit, and you, I and others were knocking down 80% every year they would just have more pups. But the new pups would not be experienced moose killers. You look at the success rate of a small pack of experienced wolves VS the success rate of a large but Inexperienced pack and tell me which is lower.

Hopefully this proves to be a step in the right direction. Personally I would be fine with them completely abolishing the calf tags, but it sounds like there will less opportunity to target calves, and they will be managed more than in the past.

Overall it sounds like this may end up costing the gov more than the current way of doing things. That said, we haven't seen the cost of the adult tags yet, but it sounds like more resources will be required to administrate the revised system, and there will be less revenue generated from the application process. Either way it's refreshing to see something being done.

I'm happy to see this point system on the draw. Which translates to - I may actually get a tag in my lifetime! Maybe even 2 or 3 if I live long enough.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Selling licences without tags is pretty much what’s happening now. We had 10, P1 guys and didn’t get a tag..
The nominal fee to enter the draw is what BC has now. If they luck out and get a draw, they then buy a licence. I think this will cut revenue substantially. As far as the increase costs of an adult tag, I don’t see a problem there. I didn’t see a lot of recommendations put forward regarding unregulated non-licenced harvest !! It will be interesting to see what changes are actually made.
I’ve already sent in my two cents !!

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They are not selling licenses without a tag right now, they are letting everybody shoot a calf, which infuriates me, this is not how you bring back a population.

The nominal fee to enter the draw will probably increase revenues, the number of guys who stopped buying licenses at $45 a shot will no doubt go back to buying a draw application for $10-15, the revenue generated from the draw system will outweigh the loss from the people not buying licenses.

Every decision any gov't makes ensures that, they the gov't, get their piece of the pie. Follow the money and you'll see where this is going. The MNR should not be politically directed. Only then can the MNR begin to manage for the resource. First and foremost it should be about the moose! Not about licence sales, not about spin off cash, not about sustenance rights, etc etc. The welfare of the moose should be the only factor. This new proposal still allows for cows to be shot and calves to be orphaned for future wolf predation. Moose are also being eradicated/sacrificed in 5 or 6 units in an effort to help the caribou. Meanwhile the Michopicoten Island mismanagement is only 1 yr. old. We've been hoodwinked for so fricken long how the hell can you trust anything coming from the MNR that always seems to have hidden agendas.

Put a bounty on wolves province wide, increase bear to 2 tags per licence, and stop cow/calf hunt for 3 years.
I guess this is too simple for them to comprehend!
They're answer is workshops, EBR's, and micromanaging the systems they implemented that they said would work years ago when we got the current system. WTF? WTF?

This new system will be the greatest ever devised...and every year there will be tweaks and micromanagement until they dream up something else. History does repeat itself!

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Every decision any gov't makes ensures that, they the gov't, get their piece of the pie. Follow the money and you'll see where this is going. The MNR should not be politically directed. Only then can the MNR begin to manage for the resource. First and foremost it should be about the moose! Not about licence sales, not about spin off cash, not about sustenance rights, etc etc. The welfare of the moose should be the only factor. This new proposal still allows for cows to be shot and calves to be orphaned for future wolf predation. Moose are also being eradicated/sacrificed in 5 or 6 units in an effort to help the caribou. Meanwhile the Michopicoten Island mismanagement is only 1 yr. old. We've been hoodwinked for so fricken long how the hell can you trust anything coming from the MNR that always seems to have hidden agendas.

Put a bounty on wolves province wide, increase bear to 2 tags per licence, and stop cow/calf hunt for 3 years.
I guess this is too simple for them to comprehend!
They're answer is workshops, EBR's, and micromanaging the systems they implemented that they said would work years ago when we got the current system. WTF? WTF?

This new system will be the greatest ever devised...and every year there will be tweaks and micromanagement until they dream up something else. History does repeat itself!

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^^^^^^ this^^^^^^

This is from TB News Watch

Province proposing changes to moose hunt

Proposed changes include a point system for the allocation of moose tags in the province.

by: Doug Diaczuk

THUNDER BAY - The Ontario government is looking for feedback from hunters and the public on proposed changes to how the moose population is managed in the province.

The new proposals, which were developed last spring with recommendations by the Big Game Management Advisory Committee, are now open to public feedback on the Environmental Registry of Ontario.

Some of the new proposals for 2020 include interim calf quotas in wildlife management units in Northeastern and Southern Ontario, as well as creating early bow-specific seasons and quotas with an open moose hunting season where they don’t currently exist.

This will include creating separate tag quotas for bow and gun tags in Northeastern wildlife management units.

Proposals for 2021 include modernizing the province’s selective harvest approach to improve quota by moving to selective harvest by bull tags/cow/calf tags, and calf tags.

The moose hunting license will also no longer come with a tag in order to allow applicants who were unsuccessful or did not apply for a tag to party hunt on another individual’s tag.

The moose tag draw would also be replaced with a new point system, where hunters will apply for the moose tag allocation process with a fee. The group application component would also be eliminated and each hunter would apply for a tag allocation by themselves.

Hunters will be allocated tags based on the number of preference point a hunter has accumulated. Points can be received each year a hunter has applied and been unsuccessful, a hunter’s draw history would be used to determine how many points they have, the northern resident draw would be eliminated.

Hunters with the most points will receive the available tags for the wildlife management units and once a hunter receives a tag, all points will be forfeited. Hunters do have the choice to not claim a tag if they have been allocated and keep their points.

This will be a two-stage process, including a primary allocation and a second change allocation.

"We are listening to moose hunters across the province, and our proposal is designed to work for the hunting community," said Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry John Yakabuski in a release. "I encourage Ontario's hunters to review the proposal and consider its implications on moose populations and future hunting opportunities. I would like to thank BGMAC and the committee's Chair, John Kaplanis, for their dedication and insight on strengthening moose management in Ontario."

Feedback on the proposals is being accepted until Sept. 26, 2019.

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Every decision any gov't makes ensures that, they the gov't, get their piece of the pie. Follow the money and you'll see where this is going.

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Youbetcha! Money talks. Everything else walks.

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Originally Posted by Fox

They are not selling licenses without a tag right now, they are letting everybody shoot a calf, which infuriates me, this is not how you bring back a population.

The nominal fee to enter the draw will probably increase revenues, the number of guys who stopped buying licenses at $45 a shot will no doubt go back to buying a draw application for $10-15, the revenue generated from the draw system will outweigh the loss from the people not buying licenses.

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I don’t consider a calf tag ..... but we may have to !

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I don’t consider a calf tag ..... but we may have to !

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We have to.

If you consider that approximately half of those calves shot are female it really does not look too good on the population. On top of that we have not had mandatory reporting or check stations, so we have no idea how many calves have been shot.

We need check stations, get rid of cow and calf hunting (in most WMUs) and get this stuff figured out before it is too late.

There’ a piece about identifying your party on your licence summary and you can be part of 3 different parties. Sounds a bit complicated for guys up north who like to mix and match almost daily especially in the latter part of the season.

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Every decision any gov't makes ensures that, they the gov't, get their piece of the pie. Follow the money and you'll see where this is going. The MNR should not be politically directed. Only then can the MNR begin to manage for the resource. First and foremost it should be about the moose! Not about licence sales, not about spin off cash, not about sustenance rights, etc etc. The welfare of the moose should be the only factor. This new proposal still allows for cows to be shot and calves to be orphaned for future wolf predation. Moose are also being eradicated/sacrificed in 5 or 6 units in an effort to help the caribou. Meanwhile the Michopicoten Island mismanagement is only 1 yr. old. We've been hoodwinked for so fricken long how the hell can you trust anything coming from the MNR that always seems to have hidden agendas.

Put a bounty on wolves province wide, increase bear to 2 tags per licence, and stop cow/calf hunt for 3 years.
I guess this is too simple for them to comprehend!
They're answer is workshops, EBR's, and micromanaging the systems they implemented that they said would work years ago when we got the current system. WTF? WTF?

This new system will be the greatest ever devised...and every year there will be tweaks and micromanagement until they dream up something else. History does repeat itself!

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Well said!

I fully support changes to support moose hunt-AND to save the moose.Finally Ford tries something,alas not what the moose needs.
This proposal is far from managing the moose.Again,every single step is how to manage licensed Hunters(and get good bucks while doing it).

Managing hunters: set quotas,collect points,pay as you go program(to entice more $)set a system where more hunters will try to hunt-whole bunch of paying customer in a party after-the SINGLE moose.
Managing moose : decrease bear and wolf predation by all available means ,eliminate calf hunt,control non regulated harvest,improve habitat,CLOSE moose hunt for all ,for 3-5 years(please do not kill me for this one...........)decrease deer numbers where moose gets illness from brain worm,set up effective tick control.

Would this all cost a pretty $ -yes.
Would this be the only viable solution to save all accessible moose in Ontario-most likely.

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Originally Posted by gbk

Well said!

I fully support changes to support moose hunt-AND to save the moose.Finally Ford tries something,alas not what the moose needs.
This proposal is far from managing the moose.Again,every single step is how to manage licensed Hunters(and get good bucks while doing it).

Managing hunters: set quotas,collect points,pay as you go program(to entice more $)set a system where more hunters will try to hunt-whole bunch of paying customer in a party after-the SINGLE moose.
Managing moose : decrease bear and wolf predation by all available means ,eliminate calf hunt,control non regulated harvest,improve habitat,CLOSE moose hunt for all ,for 3-5 years(please do not kill me for this one...........)decrease deer numbers where moose gets illness from brain worm,set up effective tick control.

Would this all cost a pretty $ -yes.
Would this be the only viable solution to save all accessible moose in Ontario-most likely.

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One more observation I noticed. I've followed and made submissions to various EBRs. When the rubber finally hits the road there's many EBR suggestions that are dropped and a whole bunch of stuff added to the new laws that just seemed to appear out of thin air. Where the frig did those come from. Seems as though there's some hot topics that they just know will cause a stir. So they don't mention them but sneak them through. I have lost all faith in those SOBs because for all the education and diplomas they have - I have a bag of hammers in the garage that's smarter then most of them.

Why not suspend cow/calves 3 yrs. Bounty the wolves so northern trappers can get them in check and issue extra bear tags across the board to residents in all WMUs where moose are found. Also give up on this caribou resurgence at the expense of dwindling moose. This is way too easy and would only require one or two MNR employees. But they got whole departments of thumb twiddlers and violin payers named Nero that need to justify their jobs.

Also suspend spraying of millions of acres with glyphos. How can any ungulate live in that type of environment.

Too many predators, no food, and mismanagement! And the wish list is increase the herd. Gimmy a break!

It will take something monumental before I would ever trust anything they do!

Good to see the point system introduced. It's been in use in the US western states where there has been a high demand for tags for decades.

I'd suggested that to the MNR almost 20 years ago, along with reference material to how several states run their draws.

To say MNR moves at a glacial pace is being to generous.

We gave it up 17 years ago when our group 9 could no longer get a tag, yet other groups would get 2 or 3 tags applying as individuals. Between outfitter and individual tags they ditched certain group size guarantee, but everyone in the province got a calf tag?... It became every man for himself tag system. Hopefully they can figure it out for you future hunters.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

We gave it up 17 years ago when our group 9 could no longer get a tag, yet other groups would get 2 or 3 tags applying as individuals. Between outfitter and individual tags they ditched certain group size guarantee, but everyone in the province got a calf tag?... It became every man for himself tag system. Hopefully they can figure it out for you future hunters.

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I am afraid they will not .Many years ago the current system was introduced to increase moose numbers.Claiming this system works in Scandinavia.It does there-but what ELSE was copied from the system in Sweden?
Nothing.
They have far less bears,far less wolves,far more agricultural land abutting moose habitat-which helps with food issue.Then they have next to non existent caribou reintroduction" never will work "plan,next to no Non regulated harvest,no brain worm ,and very well controlled population numbers.
The plan they will introduce will yield the same.
It is like-My neighbor makes good pizza-so ,what does he uses-dough and pizza sauce.The rest-why bother with pepperoni,mozzarella,oregano,olives,ham,Parmesan,Y ou name it.............pizza is pizza,is it not????

If i am a new hunter,starting to hunt moose,the worst investment for me would be to gear up for moose hunt(tent,ATV,boat-You name it).

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Originally Posted by gbk

I am afraid they will not .Many years ago the current system was introduced to increase moose numbers.Claiming this system works in Scandinavia.It does there-but what ELSE was copied from the system in Sweden?
Nothing.
They have far less bears,far less wolves,far more agricultural land abutting moose habitat-which helps with food issue.Then they have next to non existent caribou reintroduction" never will work "plan,next to no Non regulated harvest,no brain worm ,and very well controlled population numbers.
The plan they will introduce will yield the same.
It is like-My neighbor makes good pizza-so ,what does he uses-dough and pizza sauce.The rest-why bother with pepperoni,mozzarella,oregano,olives,ham,Parmesan,Y ou name it.............pizza is pizza,is it not????

If i am a new hunter,starting to hunt moose,the worst investment for me would be to gear up for moose hunt(tent,ATV,boat-You name it).

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Gearing up for moose( or just hunting) were I grew up, involved buying a rifle, a backpack and a canoe. Gearing up for fishing involved buying a rod, a backpack( wait got one) and a canoe ( still got one). Gearing up in general seems to have been a lot cheaper, and you got one BULL moose tag per person.

You shot ONLY Bull moose, NO cows. NO calves.

Oh yes we had bear tags too....It was "How MANY do you want? "

i hope they end up fixing all this, id love to go on a moose hunt in the future.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Good to see the point system introduced. It's been in use in the US western states where there has been a high demand for tags for decades.

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Go to any Western U.S. hunting forums and most guys that have been around long enough will tell you the point system isn't the way to go. Go read up on point creep. Guys with 20+ years of points invested with no hope of ever drawing.

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Originally Posted by Obi-wanShinobi

Go to any Western U.S. hunting forums and most guys that have been around long enough will tell you the point system isn't the way to go. Go read up on point creep. Guys with 20+ years of points invested with no hope of ever drawing.

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You raise a good point ( no pun intended). Units where there are presently no guaranteed group sizes will require 15+ points for a tag. Going forward, many older hunters will only get 1 tag in their lifetime. The MNRF will count on these hunters hooking up with others who get tags. Will mean people sitting out because of caps on group sizes.

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Originally Posted by Obi-wanShinobi

Go to any Western U.S. hunting forums and most guys that have been around long enough will tell you the point system isn't the way to go. Go read up on point creep. Guys with 20+ years of points invested with no hope of ever drawing.

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It does not really matter what system they use for a draw, the key here is that they need to stop allowing people to shoot cows and calves (50% cows), it is the dumbest design and always has been, being able to have an open harvest on the young of the year is idiotic. I don't care how many bear kills there are or wolf kills, you can always go on a bear hunt and few hunters do so stop ing about bears, the problem is hunters shooting the next generation every single year.

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Originally Posted by Fox

It does not really matter what system they use for a draw, the key here is that they need to stop allowing people to shoot cows and calves (50% cows), it is the dumbest design and always has been, being able to have an open harvest on the young of the year is idiotic. I don't care how many bear kills there are or wolf kills, you can always go on a bear hunt and few hunters do so stop ing about bears, the problem is hunters shooting the next generation every single year.

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The idea was, someone in their infinite wisdom felt 60% of calf moose were killed by predators, so might as well let hunters take them.....duh....did they think the wolves and bears would quit eating calves ?? I’m amazed at how many cow tags are available.... hopefully they can sort this out ! I still maintain they will have to get a handle on “ unregulated” harvests...
but what do I know, I’ve only hunted moose every year for the past 40 plus years!!

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Originally Posted by Obi-wanShinobi

Go to any Western U.S. hunting forums and most guys that have been around long enough will tell you the point system isn't the way to go. Go read up on point creep. Guys with 20+ years of points invested with no hope of ever drawing.

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Well - if people want to draw in high demand zones that's there prerogative. But a) you only pay a nominal fee to enter the draw to get points, and b) you know ahead of time how many points are required to draw a tag - but regarding point creep - it is a creep - it didn't get there overnight. It got there because as it kept creeping higher, people continued to apply. It's a classic example of people knowing the expected result of an action, yet going ahead with it and complaining about the result when it occurs.

The good think about points vs any lottery system is that the results are 100% predictable. There is no shortage of stories of hunters/groups applying numerous times and not getting a tag, while other groups seem to get tags every year. Nothing fair or understandable about the lottery system results.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

The idea was, someone in their infinite wisdom felt 60% of calf moose were killed by predators, so might as well let hunters take them.....duh....did they think the wolves and bears would quit eating calves ?? I’m amazed at how many cow tags are available.... hopefully they can sort this out ! I still maintain they will have to get a handle on “ unregulated” harvests...
but what do I know, I’ve only hunted moose every year for the past 40 plus years!!

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Exactly, the bears, wolves, etc will take out say 100 animals, if we shoot 75 it is not like those predators will only take 25, they will still take 100. The same thing goes with the native hunt, yes they should limit things but a non-native hunt taking 100 animals is still 100 animals taken that we can control.

I want to be able to see moose and be able to moose hunt in the future. I was actually talking to someone about moose hunting in Ontario, we agreed that the best moose hunting in Ontario is in Quebec, ha ha ha.

I totally agree with your stance on this matter. The point system also will not fix the problem of hunter success in areas where tag quotas are low and there are large numbers of applicants. All it will do is reward hunters that hunt alone and in small groups in the north where the current group system works fine.Our group of 6 has hunted the Northwest for 25+ years with 100% success. Local hunters are upset because us southerners come up north and shoot their moose. Most guys up north hunt alone or with a buddy for the whole hunting season when they get a tag. With the point system all the locals who have applied alone for years will have more points than the people that applied in groups with success, like mine. Our group highest point value will be 5 next year and everyone else on a downward scale as the tag always goes to the guy who has gone without the longest in the group. There will be a lot of single hunters with larger point values. This new system will punish group hunters and on another note the 5km range for a group of 6 or more is more than reasonable. Changing to 3km is being done for enforcement purposes, and lower success rates. Have you ever seen a happy CO when you have a moose in your camp? I've got more, but will stop now.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Well - if people want to draw in high demand zones that's there prerogative. But a) you only pay a nominal fee to enter the draw to get points, and b) you know ahead of time how many points are required to draw a tag - but regarding point creep - it is a creep - it didn't get there overnight. It got there because as it kept creeping higher, people continued to apply. It's a classic example of people knowing the expected result of an action, yet going ahead with it and complaining about the result when it occurs.

The good think about points vs any lottery system is that the results are 100% predictable. There is no shortage of stories of hunters/groups applying numerous times and not getting a tag, while other groups seem to get tags every year. Nothing fair or understandable about the lottery system results.

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In the current lottery system this does happen-many ppl apply and then B.... and C....they did not get a tag for Sooo many years.
But they would not budge to go perhaps where it is easier to get a tag.
Yet ,in the future:
There will be NO more moose to harvest,and there will be still many hunters wanting to hunt in"easy"or "close by"areas.Therefore there will be nothing predictable in the new system either.
Example:there will a zone with lets say :medium demand,yet stable demand.There will be ONLY so many moose(lets say 18) to be taken.There will be so many hunters a year,and they will slowly get their points to receive a tag.Let's say there will be 24 of them.So-what will happen then?Someone will NOT get a tag even with all the points in the world.Or the MNR will on sight increase the required points to the next level ,to stop over harvesting.

Does anyone understand HOW the points will actually START?

Like next year would be the first year?So,all of us will go-POINT #1 ...or ????And how they will then do the first few transition years if all of us will be at#1 point?

Hi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gbk

Does anyone understand HOW the points will actually START?

Like next year would be the first year?So,all of us will go-POINT #1 ...or ????And how they will then do the first few transition years if all of us will be at#1 point?

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They will go back in time, based on your draw history. So if you’ve applied unsuccessfully for 20 consecutive years, you would start with 20 points. Or, if you got a tag last , you would start fresh. If you unsuccessfully applied 5 times in 10 years and didn’t apply during the other 5 years, you get 5 points. If you got s tag 5 years ago, and unsuccessfully applied twice since then, you would get 2 points. The point totals in these examples are before you apply. Once you submit an application, you buy a point. So if you had a tag last year, you get a point this year.

im not sure if you lose all of your points once you get a tag. Say you’ve unsuccessfully applied for 20 years in wmu 47. This year, you decide to hunt wmu 16 where 5 points are needed for a bull tag. What happens to the remaining points? Would it be fair to keep them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Hi
They will go back in time, based on your draw history. So if you’ve applied unsuccessfully for 20 consecutive years, you would start with 20 points. Or, if you got a tag last , you would start fresh. If you unsuccessfully applied 5 times in 10 years and didn’t apply during the other 5 years, you get 5 points. If you got s tag 5 years ago, and unsuccessfully applied twice since then, you would get 2 points. The point totals in these examples are before you apply. Once you submit an application, you buy a point. So if you had a tag last year, you get a point this year.

im not sure if you lose all of your points once you get a tag. Say you’ve unsuccessfully applied for 20 years in wmu 47. This year, you decide to hunt wmu 16 where 5 points are needed for a bull tag. What happens to the remaining points? Would it be fair to keep them?

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Thanx Sam for the detailed explanation.
I was totally not sure,but if this is how it will be-Here comes then the FIRST unfairness and NON understandable part of the new system.Actually i would call it lack of CLARITY .This sucks.

Just lets say someone applied to a hard to get WMU for years(convenience and closeness)AND never got a tag will BEAT out the ones they choose to hunt,and tried to live with worser WMUs and far reaches?
After all -those KNEW they have next to zero chances to get a tag and yet persisted.

Now they will go to the Plan "B "WMU because they got a tag?and beat out the ones they choose the inconvenience and bother?

Where is the fairness in that?

I am not beating hunters for this-i am beating the system if it will be set up as such-WHERE ?there will be fairness.

Never mind,then many hunters may give up because of this-i will never get a tag in a WMU where 5 points are needed, because i got it "like last" year?
Because the other ones will take over?

The more i think the more it comes thru this way-now the ones they choose to actually hunt(and to contribute to the Tourist economy by ACTUALLY going hunting )not just trying....will be PENALIZED .They will never if ever be able not to hunt in the CONVENIENT and EASY to reach WMU-s -because they choose to hunt EVERY year in the hard to get WMUs?
How those past "successful"hunters will EVER be able to collect enough points to reach the Point rich hunters,to hunt in "better"WMU-s?
In 15 years????

Seems the MNRF will take away from some ,to appease some.
Wow

I will call Lottery Ontario and DEMAND my few millions of winnings,after all i play 25 years and never won more then 100 $.It is my turn by now,and they have to fess up:ashamed::ashamed::ashamed:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Hi


im not sure if you lose all of your points once you get a tag. Say you’ve unsuccessfully applied for 20 years in wmu 47. This year, you decide to hunt wmu 16 where 5 points are needed for a bull tag. What happens to the remaining points? Would it be fair to keep them?

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I think you lose all your remaining points.

Time to quit Ontario moose hunting !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Time to quit Ontario moose hunting !!

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I doubt hunters will arbitrarily quit hunting Moose. The system,itself,will eliminate many hunters. This system will operate the same way as Wyoming,Colorado etc. where hunters will apply every year,but,will wait another 10 to 15 years before drawing another tag providing they apply every year to build their point base. Most Canadians will simply get fed up with a losing proposition. Selling licenses without tags so everyone may party hunt has "disaster" and "ticket generator" written all over it.

[QUOTE=gbk;1089847]Thanx Sam for the detailed explanation.
I was totally not sure,but if this is how it will be-Here comes then the FIRST unfairness and NON understandable part of the new system.Actually i would call it lack of CLARITY .This sucks.

Just lets say someone applied to a hard to get WMU for years(convenience and closeness)AND never got a tag will BEAT out the ones they choose to hunt,and tried to live with worser WMUs and far reaches?
After all -those KNEW they have next to zero chances to get a tag and yet persisted.

Now they will go to the Plan "B "WMU because they got a tag?and beat out the ones they choose the inconvenience and bother?

Where is the fairness in that?

I am not beating hunters for this-i am beating the system if it will be set up as such-WHERE ?there will be fairness.

Never mind,then many hunters may give up because of this-i will never get a tag in a WMU where 5 points are needed, because i got it "like last" year?
Because the other ones will take over?

The more i think the more it comes thru this way-now the ones they choose to actually hunt(and to contribute to the Tourist economy by ACTUALLY going hunting )not just trying....will be PENALIZED .They will never if ever be able not to hunt in the CONVENIENT and EASY to reach WMU-s -because they choose to hunt EVERY year in the hard to get WMUs?
How those past "successful"hunters will EVER be able to collect enough points to reach the Point rich hunters,to hunt in "better"WMU-s?
In 15 years????

Seems the MNRF will take away from some ,to appease some.
Wow

I will call Lottery Ontario and DEMAND my few millions of winnings,after all i play 25 years and never won more then 100 $.It is my turn by now,and they have to fess up:ashamed::ashamed::ashamed

I don’t have any stats to back this up, but I think most hunter show fidelity to a particular wmu, especially northern residents. That may change once it becomes apparent how many points are required in a particular wmu.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Time to quit Ontario moose hunting !!

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A lot of the local guys who used to head to Long Lac now head to Que...2 guys get a tag. The non-resident costs are equal to the money saved on gas by not driving north for 23 hrs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Time to quit Ontario moose hunting !!

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We did just that a long time ago. Totally gave up on Moose in this province. The system was broken then

We need to remember,though,that all this is mere speculation on our part because it's still in the "proposal" stage. It remains to be seen how it all actually shakes out. Having said that,I also realize that almost every one of the EBR (?) public consultation phase is anything BUT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

We need to remember,though,that all this is mere speculation on our part because it's still in the "proposal" stage. It remains to be seen how it all actually shakes out. Having said that,I also realize that almost every one of the EBR (?) public consultation phase is anything BUT.

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It’s just lip service ! It won’t matter what the response is from hunters, it’s been decided already.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

A lot of the local guys who used to head to Long Lac now head to Que...2 guys get a tag. The non-resident costs are equal to the money saved on gas by not driving north for 23 hrs.

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Plus cheap Quebec beer on the way in and out of the province. LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

A lot of the local guys who used to head to Long Lac now head to Que...2 guys get a tag. The non-resident costs are equal to the money saved on gas by not driving north for 23 hrs.

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Quebec non resident hunt has changed since last year. You need to go through outfitter now. We stopped going. Buddy is still trying to sell his camp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

It’s just lip service ! It won’t matter what the response is from hunters, it’s been decided already.

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Exactly. I think any changes coming were decided before the Moose Management Committee traveled across the province putting on their meetings which in my mind were a waste of time.

WOW you guys are gonna give yourselves a heart attack or get an aneurysm trying to explain anything that was in that MNR proposal. One thing for sure! Something is going to change. Make sure you have clean underwear because when it's officially announced it will have a made in Ontario by the MNR to better serve all the stakeholders in moose management. I think we're all going to be surprised. Some of us will shyt our pants and the rest headed to the trama hospitals. (remember the underwear).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

WOW you guys are gonna give yourselves a heart attack or get an amorism trying to explain anything that was in that MNR proposal. One thing for sure! Something is going to change. Make sure you have clean underwear because when it's officially announced it will have a made in Ontario by the MNR to better serve all the stakeholders in moose management. I think we're all going to be surprised. Some of us will shyt our pants and the rest headed to the trama hospitals. (remember the underwear).

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You are totally correct. My drawers are already dirty, all I see from these proposals and recommendations is that my 30 years of moose hunting is probably coming to an end. Sad, because i haven't had the opportunity to bring my sons along.

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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Quebec non resident hunt has changed since last year. You need to go through outfitter now. We stopped going. Buddy is still trying to sell his camp.

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Yes - that is a direct response to the number of Ontario hunters now hunting in QC. Many have bought camps there as well. A couple of gangs that used to hunt beechnut lake road 55b have moved to Quebec. Our gang just quit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Hi
They will go back in time, based on your draw history. So if you’ve applied unsuccessfully for 20 consecutive years, you would start with 20 points. Or, if you got a tag last , you would start fresh. If you unsuccessfully applied 5 times in 10 years and didn’t apply during the other 5 years, you get 5 points. If you got s tag 5 years ago, and unsuccessfully applied twice since then, you would get 2 points. The point totals in these examples are before you apply. Once you submit an application, you buy a point. So if you had a tag last year, you get a point this year.

im not sure if you lose all of your points once you get a tag. Say you’ve unsuccessfully applied for 20 years in wmu 47. This year, you decide to hunt wmu 16 where 5 points are needed for a bull tag. What happens to the remaining points? Would it be fair to keep them?

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Curious where you're reading this info, I'm not seeing it anywhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PGidley

Curious where you're reading this info, I'm not seeing it anywhere.

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From the EBR proposal:
A hunter would receive a point for each year they have applied and been unsuccessful in the draw going back to when they first started applying or the last time they received/accepted a tag (such as were successful in the draw, received a tag through a transfer or through the surplus tag allocation)
A hunter’s draw history would be used to determine the number of points they have accumulated (Note: this information would be made available to hunters in 2020)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

From the EBR proposal:
A hunter would receive a point for each year they have applied and been unsuccessful in the draw going back to when they first started applying or the last time they received/accepted a tag (such as were successful in the draw, received a tag through a transfer or through the surplus tag allocation)
A hunter’s draw history would be used to determine the number of points they have accumulated (Note: this information would be made available to hunters in 2020)

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Ah I see, I read that as starting when the new system is implemented, but now I'm not sure as it's a bit ambiguous. I would like some clarification on that. We stopped applying for moose tags as it was pointless in our area as a party of two. I welcome the preference point system, it's been a great way for us to be able hunt Wyoming, and I'm glad to see it here. My own preference would be for everyone to start on a level playing field, other than us northerners who will be one point more level than our yearly visitors from the GTA.

I know I'm gonna get bashed here, but no one will address one of the real problems; native poaching. Three years ago they took 21 moose out of our area on snow machines in mid-winter. Yeah it's their right but that's just a BS statement. One of them told my buddy when confronted on the logging road that they'd "rather kill them all off than leave them for the likes of him (white) to be able to hunt them". They were even holding up the logging trucks with all the moose they killed. Nobody will ever do anything about that problem! Just saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeff Kavanagh

I know I'm gonna get bashed here, but no one will address one of the real problems; native poaching. Three years ago they took 21 moose out of our area on snow machines in mid-winter. Yeah it's their right but that's just a BS statement. One of them told my buddy when confronted on the logging road that they'd "rather kill them all off than leave them for the likes of him (white) to be able to hunt them". They were even holding up the logging trucks with all the moose they killed. Nobody will ever do anything about that problem! Just saying.

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This is a real concern but unfortunately it will just be a concern, no action will be taken..... How can you possible manage something you don't have control over, it is impossible to do so..

Closing the moose hunt for 3-5 years, for all ,would be a good start.
Then no one could hunt them,and the herd would rebound.

This way-one day there will be NO moose for NO one.

And then what....?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

This is a real concern but unfortunately it will just be a concern, no action will be taken..... How can you possible manage something you don't have control over, it is impossible to do so..

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They are just wasting their time with all their other efforts. My place is in area 42 (Sudbury area). It's just about impossible to get a tag there as it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeff Kavanagh

I know I'm gonna get bashed here, but no one will address one of the real problems; native poaching. Three years ago they took 21 moose out of our area on snow machines in mid-winter. Yeah it's their right but that's just a BS statement. One of them told my buddy when confronted on the logging road that they'd "rather kill them all off than leave them for the likes of him (white) to be able to hunt them". They were even holding up the logging trucks with all the moose they killed. Nobody will ever do anything about that problem! Just saying.

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Feel good knowing your hard earned tax dollars are paying for their snow machines guns and bullets to waste those moose? We all support them and their rights..

The next few years will be interesting to see how this pans out. More could be done but its a start at least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeff Kavanagh

I know I'm gonna get bashed here, but no one will address one of the real problems; native poaching. Three years ago they took 21 moose out of our area on snow machines in mid-winter. Yeah it's their right but that's just a BS statement. One of them told my buddy when confronted on the logging road that they'd "rather kill them all off than leave them for the likes of him (white) to be able to hunt them". They were even holding up the logging trucks with all the moose they killed. Nobody will ever do anything about that problem! Just saying.

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We cannot do anything about the native hunt and poachers, all that we can control is the amount that non-native hunters take out of the population and no matter what people say about the natives, the bears and the wolves, those animals will still be taken by those sources and the only limiting factor is non-native hunters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

We cannot do anything about the native hunt and poachers, all that we can control is the amount that non-native hunters take out of the population and no matter what people say about the natives, the bears and the wolves, those animals will still be taken by those sources and the only limiting factor is non-native hunters.

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Well, the bears and wolves have been around with the moose for 10,000 years. It's the elephant in the room that everyone is afraid to deal with which is going to help decimate moose hunting as we know it.

If the government of the day, any day, goes to court over native rights, native rights win every time. Why? Because they have the piece of paper (contract), that was signed many generations ago by a lawful government. If courts upheld all of the native claims, they WOULD own a large part of the country. When does a contract, a signed legal document, between parties, no longer apply? When one party does not want it to? When it is inconvenient? What are natives doing when they unnecessarily kill animals because they can? As my mother would say, 'They are cutting off their nose, to spite their face'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

If the government of the day, any day, goes to court over native rights, native rights win every time. Why? Because they have the piece of paper (contract), that was signed many generations ago by a lawful government. If courts upheld all of the native claims, they WOULD own a large part of the country. When does a contract, a signed legal document, between parties, no longer apply? When one party does not want it to? When it is inconvenient? What are natives doing when they unnecessarily kill animals because they can? As my mother would say, 'They are cutting off their nose, to spite their face'.

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People who freeloadand get a free ride through life respect very little. Why would they care if they don't have to work for anything?

Agreed....... but their mind set 'might be', mind you I say 'might be'...... Why work for it, I own it. Or , they view it as rent, for us to live in their house.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Agreed....... but their mind set 'might be', mind you I say 'might be'...... Why work for it, I own it. Or , they view it as rent, for us to live in their house.

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And we can see how productive of a society that mindset creates, no matter what race of people......pathetic

Agree again, everyone should have a purpose in life, it gives life meaning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

If the government of the day, any day, goes to court over native rights, native rights win every time. Why? Because they have the piece of paper (contract), that was signed many generations ago by a lawful government. If courts upheld all of the native claims, they WOULD own a large part of the country. When does a contract, a signed legal document, between parties, no longer apply? When one party does not want it to? When it is inconvenient? What are natives doing when they unnecessarily kill animals because they can? As my mother would say, 'They are cutting off their nose, to spite their face'.

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I agree with that theory...to a point. Courts always seem to uphold native claims which were agreed to by treaty being a signed contract between two parties,The Crown and First Nations. A learned legal mind who is a close friend opined among some peers that he's never seen nor read anywhere in jurisprudence of a law suit by First Nations over property ownership of Canada,outright. In the discussion,it was the general consensus that the reason for that was that a very strong argument could be advanced that First Nations people were merely occupiers of the land and couldn't legally lay claim as owners. The chance of a Court ruling against First Nations would set them back to square one and bring into question every treaty ever signed.
If that may be the case,perhaps it's time to launch that law suit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeff Kavanagh

I know I'm gonna get bashed here, but no one will address one of the real problems; native poaching. Three years ago they took 21 moose out of our area on snow machines in mid-winter. Yeah it's their right but that's just a BS statement. One of them told my buddy when confronted on the logging road that they'd "rather kill them all off than leave them for the likes of him (white) to be able to hunt them". They were even holding up the logging trucks with all the moose they killed. Nobody will ever do anything about that problem! Just saying.

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No bashing were it’s not needed. I’ve been saying it for a long time. It doesn’t matter what the license hunters do. The MNRF lightbulbs just care about getting our money for as long as there’s one Moose standing. The natives and Métis will keep going till there’s none left. History repeats itself just like Manitoba. No political party wants to touch this.