Ontario Proposes a New and Improved Moose Management Program

[Fox]

Go to any Western U.S. hunting forums and most guys that have been around long enough will tell you the point system isn't the way to go. Go read up on point creep. Guys with 20+ years of points invested with no hope of ever drawing.

It does not really matter what system they use for a draw, the key here is that they need to stop allowing people to shoot cows and calves (50% cows), it is the dumbest design and always has been, being able to have an open harvest on the young of the year is idiotic. I don't care how many bear kills there are or wolf kills, you can always go on a bear hunt and few hunters do so stop ing about bears, the problem is hunters shooting the next generation every single year.

[rick_iles]

It does not really matter what system they use for a draw, the key here is that they need to stop allowing people to shoot cows and calves (50% cows), it is the dumbest design and always has been, being able to have an open harvest on the young of the year is idiotic. I don't care how many bear kills there are or wolf kills, you can always go on a bear hunt and few hunters do so stop ing about bears, the problem is hunters shooting the next generation every single year.

The idea was, someone in their infinite wisdom felt 60% of calf moose were killed by predators, so might as well let hunters take them.....duh....did they think the wolves and bears would quit eating calves ?? I’m amazed at how many cow tags are available.... hopefully they can sort this out ! I still maintain they will have to get a handle on “ unregulated” harvests...
but what do I know, I’ve only hunted moose every year for the past 40 plus years!!

[werner.reiche]

Go to any Western U.S. hunting forums and most guys that have been around long enough will tell you the point system isn't the way to go. Go read up on point creep. Guys with 20+ years of points invested with no hope of ever drawing.

Well - if people want to draw in high demand zones that's there prerogative. But a) you only pay a nominal fee to enter the draw to get points, and b) you know ahead of time how many points are required to draw a tag - but regarding point creep - it is a creep - it didn't get there overnight. It got there because as it kept creeping higher, people continued to apply. It's a classic example of people knowing the expected result of an action, yet going ahead with it and complaining about the result when it occurs.

The good think about points vs any lottery system is that the results are 100% predictable. There is no shortage of stories of hunters/groups applying numerous times and not getting a tag, while other groups seem to get tags every year. Nothing fair or understandable about the lottery system results.

[Fox]

The idea was, someone in their infinite wisdom felt 60% of calf moose were killed by predators, so might as well let hunters take them.....duh....did they think the wolves and bears would quit eating calves ?? I’m amazed at how many cow tags are available.... hopefully they can sort this out ! I still maintain they will have to get a handle on “ unregulated” harvests...
but what do I know, I’ve only hunted moose every year for the past 40 plus years!!

Exactly, the bears, wolves, etc will take out say 100 animals, if we shoot 75 it is not like those predators will only take 25, they will still take 100. The same thing goes with the native hunt, yes they should limit things but a non-native hunt taking 100 animals is still 100 animals taken that we can control.

I want to be able to see moose and be able to moose hunt in the future. I was actually talking to someone about moose hunting in Ontario, we agreed that the best moose hunting in Ontario is in Quebec, ha ha ha.

[matt64]

I totally agree with your stance on this matter. The point system also will not fix the problem of hunter success in areas where tag quotas are low and there are large numbers of applicants. All it will do is reward hunters that hunt alone and in small groups in the north where the current group system works fine.Our group of 6 has hunted the Northwest for 25+ years with 100% success. Local hunters are upset because us southerners come up north and shoot their moose. Most guys up north hunt alone or with a buddy for the whole hunting season when they get a tag. With the point system all the locals who have applied alone for years will have more points than the people that applied in groups with success, like mine. Our group highest point value will be 5 next year and everyone else on a downward scale as the tag always goes to the guy who has gone without the longest in the group. There will be a lot of single hunters with larger point values. This new system will punish group hunters and on another note the 5km range for a group of 6 or more is more than reasonable. Changing to 3km is being done for enforcement purposes, and lower success rates. Have you ever seen a happy CO when you have a moose in your camp? I've got more, but will stop now.

[gbk]

Well - if people want to draw in high demand zones that's there prerogative. But a) you only pay a nominal fee to enter the draw to get points, and b) you know ahead of time how many points are required to draw a tag - but regarding point creep - it is a creep - it didn't get there overnight. It got there because as it kept creeping higher, people continued to apply. It's a classic example of people knowing the expected result of an action, yet going ahead with it and complaining about the result when it occurs.

The good think about points vs any lottery system is that the results are 100% predictable. There is no shortage of stories of hunters/groups applying numerous times and not getting a tag, while other groups seem to get tags every year. Nothing fair or understandable about the lottery system results.

In the current lottery system this does happen-many ppl apply and then B.... and C....they did not get a tag for Sooo many years.
But they would not budge to go perhaps where it is easier to get a tag.
Yet ,in the future:
There will be NO more moose to harvest,and there will be still many hunters wanting to hunt in"easy"or "close by"areas.Therefore there will be nothing predictable in the new system either.
Example:there will a zone with lets say :medium demand,yet stable demand.There will be ONLY so many moose(lets say 18) to be taken.There will be so many hunters a year,and they will slowly get their points to receive a tag.Let's say there will be 24 of them.So-what will happen then?Someone will NOT get a tag even with all the points in the world.Or the MNR will on sight increase the required points to the next level ,to stop over harvesting.

[gbk]

Does anyone understand HOW the points will actually START?

Like next year would be the first year?So,all of us will go-POINT #1 ...or ????And how they will then do the first few transition years if all of us will be at#1 point?

[Sam Menard]

Hi

Does anyone understand HOW the points will actually START?

Like next year would be the first year?So,all of us will go-POINT #1 ...or ????And how they will then do the first few transition years if all of us will be at#1 point?

They will go back in time, based on your draw history. So if you’ve applied unsuccessfully for 20 consecutive years, you would start with 20 points. Or, if you got a tag last , you would start fresh. If you unsuccessfully applied 5 times in 10 years and didn’t apply during the other 5 years, you get 5 points. If you got s tag 5 years ago, and unsuccessfully applied twice since then, you would get 2 points. The point totals in these examples are before you apply. Once you submit an application, you buy a point. So if you had a tag last year, you get a point this year.

im not sure if you lose all of your points once you get a tag. Say you’ve unsuccessfully applied for 20 years in wmu 47. This year, you decide to hunt wmu 16 where 5 points are needed for a bull tag. What happens to the remaining points? Would it be fair to keep them?

[gbk]

Hi
They will go back in time, based on your draw history. So if you’ve applied unsuccessfully for 20 consecutive years, you would start with 20 points. Or, if you got a tag last , you would start fresh. If you unsuccessfully applied 5 times in 10 years and didn’t apply during the other 5 years, you get 5 points. If you got s tag 5 years ago, and unsuccessfully applied twice since then, you would get 2 points. The point totals in these examples are before you apply. Once you submit an application, you buy a point. So if you had a tag last year, you get a point this year.

im not sure if you lose all of your points once you get a tag. Say you’ve unsuccessfully applied for 20 years in wmu 47. This year, you decide to hunt wmu 16 where 5 points are needed for a bull tag. What happens to the remaining points? Would it be fair to keep them?

Thanx Sam for the detailed explanation.
I was totally not sure,but if this is how it will be-Here comes then the FIRST unfairness and NON understandable part of the new system.Actually i would call it lack of CLARITY .This sucks.

Just lets say someone applied to a hard to get WMU for years(convenience and closeness)AND never got a tag will BEAT out the ones they choose to hunt,and tried to live with worser WMUs and far reaches?
After all -those KNEW they have next to zero chances to get a tag and yet persisted.

Now they will go to the Plan "B "WMU because they got a tag?and beat out the ones they choose the inconvenience and bother?

Where is the fairness in that?

I am not beating hunters for this-i am beating the system if it will be set up as such-WHERE ?there will be fairness.

Never mind,then many hunters may give up because of this-i will never get a tag in a WMU where 5 points are needed, because i got it "like last" year?
Because the other ones will take over?

The more i think the more it comes thru this way-now the ones they choose to actually hunt(and to contribute to the Tourist economy by ACTUALLY going hunting )not just trying....will be PENALIZED .They will never if ever be able not to hunt in the CONVENIENT and EASY to reach WMU-s -because they choose to hunt EVERY year in the hard to get WMUs?
How those past "successful"hunters will EVER be able to collect enough points to reach the Point rich hunters,to hunt in "better"WMU-s?
In 15 years????

Seems the MNRF will take away from some ,to appease some.
Wow

I will call Lottery Ontario and DEMAND my few millions of winnings,after all i play 25 years and never won more then 100 $.It is my turn by now,and they have to fess up

[Obi-wanShinobi]

Hi


im not sure if you lose all of your points once you get a tag. Say you’ve unsuccessfully applied for 20 years in wmu 47. This year, you decide to hunt wmu 16 where 5 points are needed for a bull tag. What happens to the remaining points? Would it be fair to keep them?

I think you lose all your remaining points.