September 2, 1859 - an event in history, that could happen again.

Imagine perhaps ... a week... or much more likely without power, probably longer with no internet.... it could easily happen!





September 2, 1859...
Campers in the Rocky Mountains wake up in the middle of the night, thinking that the glow they see is sunrise. No, it's the Northern Lights. People in Cuba read their morning paper by the red illumination of aurora borealis.
...
As the day unfolded, the gathering storm electrified telegraph lines, shocking technicians and setting their telegraph papers on fire. The "Victorian Internet" was knocked offline. Magnetometers around the world recorded strong disturbances in the planetary magnetic field for more than a week.

The cause of all this was an extraordinary solar flare witnessed the day before by British astronomer Richard Carrington. His sighting on Sept. 1, 1859, marked the discovery of solar flares and foreshadowed a new field of study: space weather. According to a NASA-funded study by the National Academy of Sciences, if a similar storm occurred today, it could cause a trillion dollars in damage to society's high-tech infrastructure and require years for complete recovery.


Some reading material....

http://spaceweather.com/

https://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/X17/

https://www.space.com/12584-worst-so...s-history.html

https://www.space.com/7224-150-years...lar-storm.html

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...event-science/

https://science.nasa.gov/science-new...arringtonflare

Potential for bigger?
https://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580

2012 .... the day the storm missed... thankfully! A couple of the tabloid news had titles like "Solar flare nearly destroyed Earth 2 years ago: NASA" .... destroyed .... a trillion dollars in damage...that would be true.... catastrophe BIG yep!
https://science.nasa.gov/science-new...jul_superstorm

and a few years later
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...space-science/

The 2017 article had an interesting couple lines....
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ade-180964794/
"In fact, solar activity has diminished so much in recent decades that some researchers believe we are soon heading into a “Little Ice Age” event similar to the event that led to globally-cooler temperatures during the late 1700s and early 1800s. "


Those things that make you go ...huh? Wonder what a wind turbine would be like in a solar storm.... but hey.... a few billion on wind turbines ..... that right now are producing ... 237Mw .... less than 2% of Ontario's power.... and Niagara Falls (Beck 1 & 2) ... 1,400+ for perspective... I digress.... sorry.
http://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html

..... I'm sure the gov't etc have a plan..... by now....
Canada's space agency is studying whether a big solar storm could send us back to the Stone Age
https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...-the-stone-age
Systems aren’t necessarily easy to back up. In North America, Langlois said, it can take six months to produce transformers used in power grids. If multiple transformers are affected by a solar storm and stop working, there’d be some tough decisions. “Who gets the first one? Canadians are going to freeze to death if they don’t get heat,” he said. It’s not necessarily easy to transport them, either — they’re the size of houses.

An intense solar storm could also affect satellites and knock out, whether temporarily or more permanently, the global positioning system. A lack of GPS, or a lapse in accuracy, would affect aircraft (both manned and unmanned) and, in the not-so-distant future, things like driverless cars. “We’re getting heavily dependent on space,” Langlois said.

... seems atleast they do..
https://nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/reso...lar-flares.cfm


For YOUR plan...
https://www.todayshomeowner.com/how-...-solar-storms/

Imagine the Torontonians wearing their tin foil hats...:moose:

I've always been an advocate for being "prepared", but I've always found that most people look at you as some sort of whacko if I dare bring the subject up? Todays society is way beyond self preservation and readiness. It's expected that the government will look after us. The power grid will come back on? The food delivery trucks will still bring the supplies to the grocery stores? The police will still protect us? It's unfathomable to most everyone, that a real SHTF scenario could happen. To those, I can only say good luck.

Because so many people would be looking for food the only way to survive would be undetected until they all died.

I thought climate change was going to kill us all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by glen

Because so many people would be looking for food the only way to survive would be undetected until they all died.

I thought climate change was going to kill us all.

---

I think if it isn't over a couple weeks (and not in winter) it won't be too bad...water will be the first big problem though but a few extra cans of food or a bag of potatoes and a propane stove would make alot of difference to some....

With all the electronics in cars I wonder if they would have an issue, I mean if the 1859 had sparks coming off polls....

oh and WHICH climate change though .....

Heat (Trudeau etc.)

or

Ice age (see Smithsonian article...)

:moose:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

Imagine perhaps ... a week... or much more likely without power, probably longer with no internet.... it could easily happen!





September 2, 1859...
Campers in the Rocky Mountains wake up in the middle of the night, thinking that the glow they see is sunrise. No, it's the Northern Lights. People in Cuba read their morning paper by the red illumination of aurora borealis.
...
As the day unfolded, the gathering storm electrified telegraph lines, shocking technicians and setting their telegraph papers on fire. The "Victorian Internet" was knocked offline. Magnetometers around the world recorded strong disturbances in the planetary magnetic field for more than a week.

The cause of all this was an extraordinary solar flare witnessed the day before by British astronomer Richard Carrington. His sighting on Sept. 1, 1859, marked the discovery of solar flares and foreshadowed a new field of study: space weather. According to a NASA-funded study by the National Academy of Sciences, if a similar storm occurred today, it could cause a trillion dollars in damage to society's high-tech infrastructure and require years for complete recovery.


Some reading material....

http://spaceweather.com/

https://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/X17/

https://www.space.com/12584-worst-so...s-history.html

https://www.space.com/7224-150-years...lar-storm.html

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...event-science/

https://science.nasa.gov/science-new...arringtonflare

Potential for bigger?
https://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580

2012 .... the day the storm missed... thankfully! A couple of the tabloid news had titles like "Solar flare nearly destroyed Earth 2 years ago: NASA" .... destroyed .... a trillion dollars in damage...that would be true.... catastrophe BIG yep!
https://science.nasa.gov/science-new...jul_superstorm

and a few years later
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...space-science/

The 2017 article had an interesting couple lines....
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ade-180964794/
"In fact, solar activity has diminished so much in recent decades that some researchers believe we are soon heading into a “Little Ice Age” event similar to the event that led to globally-cooler temperatures during the late 1700s and early 1800s. "


Those things that make you go ...huh? Wonder what a wind turbine would be like in a solar storm.... but hey.... a few billion on wind turbines ..... that right now are producing ... 237Mw .... less than 2% of Ontario's power.... and Niagara Falls (Beck 1 & 2) ... 1,400+ for perspective... I digress.... sorry.
http://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html

..... I'm sure the gov't etc have a plan..... by now....
Canada's space agency is studying whether a big solar storm could send us back to the Stone Age
https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...-the-stone-age
Systems aren’t necessarily easy to back up. In North America, Langlois said, it can take six months to produce transformers used in power grids. If multiple transformers are affected by a solar storm and stop working, there’d be some tough decisions. “Who gets the first one? Canadians are going to freeze to death if they don’t get heat,” he said. It’s not necessarily easy to transport them, either — they’re the size of houses.

An intense solar storm could also affect satellites and knock out, whether temporarily or more permanently, the global positioning system. A lack of GPS, or a lapse in accuracy, would affect aircraft (both manned and unmanned) and, in the not-so-distant future, things like driverless cars. “We’re getting heavily dependent on space,” Langlois said.

... seems atleast they do..
https://nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/reso...lar-flares.cfm


For YOUR plan...
https://www.todayshomeowner.com/how-...-solar-storms/

Imagine the Torontonians wearing their tin foil hats...:moose:

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Never heard about that. Fascinating. Thanks.

It seems that there are many games that are being played.

Why isn’t there a tax to fight solar flares?

Why isn’t there a tax to fight solar flares?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

I've always been an advocate for being "prepared", but I've always found that most people look at you as some sort of whacko if I dare bring the subject up? Todays society is way beyond self preservation and readiness. It's expected that the government will look after us. The power grid will come back on? The food delivery trucks will still bring the supplies to the grocery stores? The police will still protect us? It's unfathomable to most everyone, that a real SHTF scenario could happen. To those, I can only say good luck.

---

I believe in being prepared too. Not a “prepper” but I keep at least one full can of gas around and try to have extra drinking water....I don’t get too many weird looks, but I did have envious neighbours when I had my genny running and fridge cool.

I am a prepper. If you don't understand what that is, or how the Carrington Event of 1859 would affect the North America (NA) today, then you should understand a grid down scenario.

What are the chances of Event 1% of 1% chance, however, if it does happen, virtually overnight NA would be in the 1800's. The impacts to a grid down scenario are well documented by Department of Home Land Security and the report issued in 2008 details the impacts on critical infrastructure, electrical grids, 3 day delivery supply chain. It started the prepper movement.

One only needs to look at how events are unfolding in anticipation of Hurricane Dorion and the stripping of shelves in Florida . Many do not understand the impacts of a grid down NA wide electrical outage, nor do they understand that it will 12-18 months before it will fixed. 31 major electrical Substations across NA will be out and the parts required to repair just these stations alone require 12 months to built in Southern Asia, let alone trying to ship those across the ocean, and transport across land for rebuilding.

If you think the government of USA or Canada will be setting up aid stations - think again, both armies don't have EMP hardened vehicles or planes to aid the civilian populations.

Further - if you read into the DHS scenario's the is a timeline to civil breakdown:

- 1-3 days - intial realization - no more food delivery
.....most only have 3-5 days of food on hand
- 1 week - food riots - civil breakdown - with no police or fire service - 85% of all vehicles will no longer function properly, if this event occurs during rush hour - all road systems will be clogged in cities
- 1 week hospital and back up power (if still works) will run out of fuel
- 3-7 all water and sewer functions cease - hi rise building start to empty as conditions become unliveable
- 2 weeks - peoples medications will run out, those dependant of medical devices will die - jails will release inmates - community militias will form - local regulators will form to protect communities
- 2 weeks - cities will empty and move to rural areas in search of food, water, shelter and safety from the mobs.
- 4 weeks - first deaths start to occur with dysentery, starvation, water and hygiene issues - the weak and children will start die off first
- 3-6 months 30% of population in NA will be dead
- 6-12 - 90% of NA population will be dead

One should not panic or see only doom and gloom, should one prepare for 1% of 1% chance - I don't know, however if don't, you be part of looters and mobs - if you do - you will be the target of the mobs. There is no easy solution, however - if you live in a city - your risk potential goes up exponentially . Even if you shelter in place with a years worth of food and water, it is only matter of time before your discovered and the mob comes for your resources.

Your best bet - is move to the country - learn to grow as much as you can - learn to become self sufficient as possible - seed save - learn about solar, water and wind power, animal husbandry, garden, preserving. Or get lots of guns and ammo - but odds are you wont last long that way.

Anyways my two cents.

Has everyone forgotten about the Eastern Grid failure of Aug 2003 where almost the entire east was plunged into darkness for 3 days? No gas because the pumps were off,no cash because banks couldn't function and all retail ground to a stop because freezers shut down and sales staff couldn't deal with cash or credit card purchases (no calculators to do simple math). That was hilarious watching people that were suddenly completely bamboozled and could barely function.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Has everyone forgotten about the Eastern Grid failure of Aug 2003 where almost the entire east was plunged into darkness for 3 days? No gas because the pumps were off,no cash because banks couldn't function and all retail ground to a stop because freezers shut down and sales staff couldn't deal with cash or credit card purchases (no calculators to do simple math). That was hilarious watching people that were suddenly completely bamboozled and could barely function.

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What about the ice storm of 98?

It was summer with the power grid failure so nobody was going to freeze to death, we just hung out and ate food to save it from being lost, also looked up at the stars a lot those nights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Has everyone forgotten about the Eastern Grid failure of Aug 2003 where almost the entire east was plunged into darkness for 3 days?

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Yes, they have forgotten. For the masses, it's completely off their radar. The government will look after us!:thumbup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

I am a prepper. If you don't understand what that is, or how the Carrington Event of 1859 would affect the North America (NA) today, then you should understand a grid down scenario.

What are the chances of Event 1% of 1% chance, however, if it does happen, virtually overnight NA would be in the 1800's. The impacts to a grid down scenario are well documented by Department of Home Land Security and the report issued in 2008 details the impacts on critical infrastructure, electrical grids, 3 day delivery supply chain. It started the prepper movement.

One only needs to look at how events are unfolding in anticipation of Hurricane Dorion and the stripping of shelves in Florida . Many do not understand the impacts of a grid down NA wide electrical outage, nor do they understand that it will 12-18 months before it will fixed. 31 major electrical Substations across NA will be out and the parts required to repair just these stations alone require 12 months to built in Southern Asia, let alone trying to ship those across the ocean, and transport across land for rebuilding.

If you think the government of USA or Canada will be setting up aid stations - think again, both armies don't have EMP hardened vehicles or planes to aid the civilian populations.

Further - if you read into the DHS scenario's the is a timeline to civil breakdown:

- 1-3 days - intial realization - no more food delivery
.....most only have 3-5 days of food on hand
- 1 week - food riots - civil breakdown - with no police or fire service - 85% of all vehicles will no longer function properly, if this event occurs during rush hour - all road systems will be clogged in cities
- 1 week hospital and back up power (if still works) will run out of fuel
- 3-7 all water and sewer functions cease - hi rise building start to empty as conditions become unliveable
- 2 weeks - peoples medications will run out, those dependant of medical devices will die - jails will release inmates - community militias will form - local regulators will form to protect communities
- 2 weeks - cities will empty and move to rural areas in search of food, water, shelter and safety from the mobs.
- 4 weeks - first deaths start to occur with dysentery, starvation, water and hygiene issues - the weak and children will start die off first
- 3-6 months 30% of population in NA will be dead
- 6-12 - 90% of NA population will be dead

One should not panic or see only doom and gloom, should one prepare for 1% of 1% chance - I don't know, however if don't, you be part of looters and mobs - if you do - you will be the target of the mobs. There is no easy solution, however - if you live in a city - your risk potential goes up exponentially . Even if you shelter in place with a years worth of food and water, it is only matter of time before your discovered and the mob comes for your resources.

Your best bet - is move to the country - learn to grow as much as you can - learn to become self sufficient as possible - seed save - learn about solar, water and wind power, animal husbandry, garden, preserving. Or get lots of guns and ammo - but odds are you wont last long that way.

Anyways my two cents.

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Excellent post! No one will pay attention to it, and you will be labelled a "whacko", but a good post with sage advice!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Excellent post! No one will pay attention to it, and you will be labelled a "whacko", but a good post with sage advice!

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Nobody with any brains would label him a wacko, and yes I understand that you didnt.

When the SHTF I’m heading for the Soo, pls have your cabin ready for the hordes from the GTA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 73hunter

Nobody with any brains would label him a wacko, and yes I understand that you didnt.

When the SHTF I’m heading for the Soo, pls have your cabin ready for the hordes from the GTA.

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BYOB it'll be quite a party!

BYOG - and ammo

For me it will likely be a "VERY" long walk home.

By a very long walk I means months if not close to a year. The whole time never knowing if my family is alive or dead.
1) I will not be in a good mood.
2) I doubt I "WILL SUFFER FOOLS" well.
3) I would have little idea were to find
my family or were( If ) they are
buried.

Imagine driving thru California or somewhere in the south west, and then having to Walk not only back to Canada but avoiding trouble along the way.

There are a lot of small minded Radical people out there. With the breakdown of civilization as we know it, every little group that can control a piece of ground will be it's own Thiefdom.

Think I saw that movie Snow walker .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rossh

Think I saw that movie Snow walker .

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You mean the one with the bush Pilot and the sick Inuit girl? That is a true story by the way.

I still remember being in Pine Point and listening to CBC every morning about the search for another Medical Flight that went down in the winter.

Only good thing would be if it happened over the winter months. I would likely have the woods and fields mostly to myself. Except for a few fellow hunters/Fishermen and the farmers, not too many city people are going to be running around the countryside.

Frozen meat lasts longer too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

For me it will likely be a "VERY" long walk home.

By a very long walk I means months if not close to a year. The whole time never knowing if my family is alive or dead.
1) I will not be in a good mood.
2) I doubt I "WILL SUFFER FOOLS" well.
3) I would have little idea were to find
my family or were( If ) they are
buried.

Imagine driving thru California or somewhere in the south west, and then having to Walk not only back to Canada but avoiding trouble along the way.

There are a lot of small minded Radical people out there. With the breakdown of civilization as we know it, every little group that can control a piece of ground will be it's own Thiefdom.

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When TSHF the preparations made and available would vary so much! In an hours drive you can have 2 days walking or almost of day on a bicycle **Note... If you have 10 minutes or less then it is just throw stuff like phones, chargers etc. in a Faraday box and start filling water containers, in winter turn up the heat and call people to set plans. Then unplug and turn off the house a few minutes before.
https://todayshomeowner.com/how-to-p...-solar-storms/
If you have time to go grocery shopping, get gas, propane, wood and other preparations you could also get some chicken screen and put some blankets on a car and protect them from touching, you can wrap your fridge etc. (* See above for details, fried electronics is just junk) and buy things like sleeping bags, restock medications, survival items etc. and to up your odds help the neighbour, gather family, head out of town....


** Note: Even a backpack on a bike can carry alot and cover good distance also there are options like https://www.aosom.ca/item/aosom-cycl...B4-0008-3.html

When prepping for medical supplies most don't take into account the different antibiotics that would be life saving in grid scenario, where do you go to Penicillin when it is not produced/delivered or manufactured anymore (or that production has stopped).

It is not like you can go into doctors office and say, can I have a years worth of Amoxicillin..they just wont give it to you, so how do deal with infections, that will rise as a result of sanitary conditions.

The US Market has figured this out by bypassing the human consumption factor and have started producing FISH antibiotics for sale in bottles of 100 pills for the 10 most common "cillins" These are made by the same factories (like Smith - Glaxon), have the same pill codes, same colors and identifying marks. The only exception is one bottle is marked "not for human consumption", and it is 10X cheaper on the private market.

Yes you can order from the states to Canada for these items - no duty or restrictions.

DHS did a 10 yr study of the 100 most common drugs and gauged the effectiveness along the 10 years - study released in 2018. The standard for meeting the criteria was 95% effective strength after expiry date. Most if all medications lasted 4 yrs before they lost 5% effective strength (which not a factor) many of the cillins lasted 6+ years, most least effective was over the counter pills Tylenol and Ibuprofen <24months past expiry dates.

Food for thought.

The question is, Mark......how much toilet paper have you got stockpiled ??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

When prepping for medical supplies most don't take into account the different antibiotics that would be life saving in grid scenario, where do you go to Penicillin when it is not produced/delivered or manufactured anymore (or that production has stopped).

It is not like you can go into doctors office and say, can I have a years worth of Amoxicillin..they just wont give it to you, so how do deal with infections, that will rise as a result of sanitary conditions.

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Go to a few different travel clinics and and tell them you travelling to Africa, Asia or S. America. They will give you a script for Cipro which also has a reasonably long shelf life and is broad spectrum. I have enough Cipro from different trips to treat 6 or 7 acute bacterial infections.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

I am a prepper. If you don't understand what that is, or how the Carrington Event of 1859 would affect the North America (NA) today, then you should understand a grid down scenario.

What are the chances of Event 1% of 1% chance, however, if it does happen, virtually overnight NA would be in the 1800's. The impacts to a grid down scenario are well documented by Department of Home Land Security and the report issued in 2008 details the impacts on critical infrastructure, electrical grids, 3 day delivery supply chain. It started the prepper movement.

One only needs to look at how events are unfolding in anticipation of Hurricane Dorion and the stripping of shelves in Florida . Many do not understand the impacts of a grid down NA wide electrical outage, nor do they understand that it will 12-18 months before it will fixed. 31 major electrical Substations across NA will be out and the parts required to repair just these stations alone require 12 months to built in Southern Asia, let alone trying to ship those across the ocean, and transport across land for rebuilding.

If you think the government of USA or Canada will be setting up aid stations - think again, both armies don't have EMP hardened vehicles or planes to aid the civilian populations.

Further - if you read into the DHS scenario's the is a timeline to civil breakdown:

- 1-3 days - intial realization - no more food delivery
.....most only have 3-5 days of food on hand
- 1 week - food riots - civil breakdown - with no police or fire service - 85% of all vehicles will no longer function properly, if this event occurs during rush hour - all road systems will be clogged in cities
- 1 week hospital and back up power (if still works) will run out of fuel
- 3-7 all water and sewer functions cease - hi rise building start to empty as conditions become unliveable
- 2 weeks - peoples medications will run out, those dependant of medical devices will die - jails will release inmates - community militias will form - local regulators will form to protect communities
- 2 weeks - cities will empty and move to rural areas in search of food, water, shelter and safety from the mobs.
- 4 weeks - first deaths start to occur with dysentery, starvation, water and hygiene issues - the weak and children will start die off first
- 3-6 months 30% of population in NA will be dead
- 6-12 - 90% of NA population will be dead

One should not panic or see only doom and gloom, should one prepare for 1% of 1% chance - I don't know, however if don't, you be part of looters and mobs - if you do - you will be the target of the mobs. There is no easy solution, however - if you live in a city - your risk potential goes up exponentially . Even if you shelter in place with a years worth of food and water, it is only matter of time before your discovered and the mob comes for your resources.

Your best bet - is move to the country - learn to grow as much as you can - learn to become self sufficient as possible - seed save - learn about solar, water and wind power, animal husbandry, garden, preserving. Or get lots of guns and ammo - but odds are you wont last long that way.

Anyways my two cents.

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this is awesome. makes me want to purchase land even more than i already do now LOL.

i always ask what people would do if this happens. their first answer is almost always " go to bass pro and take some weapons" good luck with that one LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bowjob

this is awesome. makes me want to purchase land even more than i already do now LOL.

i always ask what people would do if this happens. their first answer is almost always " go to bass pro and take some weapons" good luck with that one LOL.

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Yep.... I am sure the police, military etc. will just allow that .... NOT! Food, gear, tents etc. those you MAY get handed out to you but knives, bows, firearms, bear spray etc. not happening! The police and military care about themselves and their families too and politicians will move a mountain to protect their tailends so there will be a vault welded shut or gear destroyed or relocated for public safety ... So NOPE, not happening!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosquito

The police and military care about themselves and their families too and politicians will move a mountain to protect their tailends so there will be a vault welded shut or gear destroyed or relocated for public safety ... So NOPE, not happening!

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In a true SHTF scenario, the police won't be a factor for very long. They'll be doing what most others will be, looking after their own families. And the ones who were to remain on duty, most likely wouldn't be able to control the masses? The military here in Canada would be a non issue. Not enough of them and too few resources. As Line 052 has posted, things would get ugly real fast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

In a true SHTF scenario, the police won't be a factor for very long. They'll be doing what most others will be, looking after their own families. And the ones who were to remain on duty, most likely wouldn't be able to control the masses? The military here in Canada would be a non issue. Not enough of them and too few resources. As Line 052 has posted, things would get ugly real fast.

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Very fast, but in the first couple days there will be some resemblance of hope and working together, it only takes a handful to secure/hide/destroy the big targets like BassPro and if that fails the fight over what is there won't be pretty too. The group that secures that lump of firearms, knives, gear etc. if they work together would be like a small feudal army. The small shops would be the ones to seek out and help but they would also quickly be small armies onto themselves and where they went would be intimidating to all but the suicidal and super desperate. Forming a group and moving somewhere where you could get water, fish/food and fuel as a group would make a big target but the intimidation factor should keep it mostly safe. Once you got there a defence a few solar motion lights at night around the perimeter of any camp.. a few people fishing, a bicycle generator... the old stone soup story essentially may work quite well. If that group wanted to relocate too imagine 10 or 20 adults armed pushing wheel barrows or small trailers of gear heading up to Simcoe or Midland, a bit if intimidation. In the stores, alot of gear would get left at the start BUT for firearms what they couldn't carry would get busted real fast I bet, take out firing pin or bolt and leave the rest in the rack or simply take one round, shove something down the barrel, walk away pull string boom/broken firearm. In a fight you are actually better off with a hockey stick or baseball bat than using a Ruger 22 with no firing pin.... other than the intimidation. People in the past moved huge loads by hand and a backpack can carry a fair bit but imagine what a yoke with two adults could carry using a canoe and canoe carrier wheel sets or small boats/trailers and taking turns ... a group would also be less likely to fight another group and more likely to cooperate if they feel confident ... it is the drug dealers, gangs etc. who will run really wild likely.... anyway, there are lots of scenarios and levels of cooperation, many will come together, there will be those trying to rebuild the grid while others run completely mad dog rabid... ugly alright. Skills, equipment, the weather, severity of the event (One hemisphere or world wide..).... lots of movie and book material ONLY hopefully.

350 Costco rolls

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 73hunter

The question is, Mark......how much toilet paper have you got stockpiled ??

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The group mentality is the best option, and to have within your group special skills, medical, mechanical, homesteaders, electrical, police and military. Secondary bug out locations for group gathering or a homesteader who accepts people into this clan, for defence, labour and security is ideal. However, you need to plan for that group and resources needed to support them long term.

Even a shelter in place plan (city) will eventually be compromised within cities, it is proven once resources are found and initial contact is made, during that contact and your refusal to allow people to check your home out is the first time you will be exposed. Further starvation and desperation will bring those identified resources/targets back into view, your first defence of that location will only make taking it more important. You will be eventually burned out or overrun, it is inevitable.

So there really is no right solution, the mobs will eventually make it out to the country to repeat that process with those still able and capable.

Unless you’re up in the far north, self-sufficient and invisible to the hungry armed mobs, you’re not going to survive it. Property ownership won’t matter either and unless someone’s cottage is a fly-in to a remote lake, it’s not much better than any country property down south.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 73hunter

Unless you’re up in the far north, self-sufficient and invisible to the hungry armed mobs, you’re not going to survive it. Property ownership won’t matter either and unless someone’s cottage is a fly-in to a remote lake, it’s not much better than any country property down south.

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At least most of they are too lazy to walk too far. A full tank of gas only takes you so far. Extra gas cans help but it is a limited resource. After that they are walking or back to bicycles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

At least most of they are too lazy to walk too far. A full tank of gas only takes you so far. Extra gas cans help but it is a limited resource. After that they are walking or back to bicycles.

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Bicycles and horses will be the high speed transit for perhaps a year or two until the grid is back up in a worst case..... steam engine museums/collections will be asked to join or maybe raided by the smarter groups if it breaks down to city state/fiefdoms. A steam tractor to farm or clear snow or a steam generator to do nothing more than power refrigeration or cook would be a huge benefit.

http://bicyclecorps.blogspot.com/
"In 1897, 20 soldiers, an army surgeon and a reporter led by Lt. James A. Moss, rode bicycles from Fort Missoula in Montana to St. Louis, Missouri. The trip was made as an experiment to see whether the bicycle could serve a useful purpose in the Army. 1890s America was also experiencing a bicycle-craze due to the recent invention of the "safety bicycle" (a bicycle with wheels of equal size and chain driven). Accounts make it clear that Moss had a romantic streak, and enjoyed the outdoors, as well as what he referred to as "the poetry of cycling".

The 41-day journey to St. Louis was 1,900 miles and took the men through Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota, Nebraska and Missouri."


.... so abit more than 40 miles a day average on dirt roads with bicycles nowhere like what you can get by the dozen at Canadian Tire.... I would say on paved roads and modern bicycles even with gear 100KM plus per day would be doable in doable weather and a reasonably fit person.

Very interesting post. The solar flare scenario is quite probable along with some others I've heard of ie; cyber hacking the grid , meteor strikes , massive storms , etc.. I have retired to the country but south western Ontario is still a pretty populated area so although I am somewhat prepared I give myself a 50/50 chance of surviving the first year if alone. I think the idea of communities banding together and forming militias would definitely increase my chances. I suppose if it's the "end of the world" saving the last bullet for yourself would be the only way out because there is no friggin way I'm letting some zombie eat my brain !

One of the few threads that had meteor in it...

Perseids meteor shower peak tonight. Good luck on clear skies
https://spaceweather.com/

I have always been prepared for a disaster - certain foods can be bought in bulk from places like Costco that will last a real long time - to name a few - oatmeal, rice, popcorn, flour, potatoes and canned goods - living in the country is another very important item to consider - I keep at least 35 gallons of gas around all the time - I have chickens and am loaded with eggs - my place is loaded with deer so getting meat would be another factor - have a pond on my property and a lake nearby to fish if needed - firewood another important item - will such a thing happen where everything breaks down - I think it will some day - we are too dependent on others to provide us with the things necessary to stay alive so you just shouldn't just talk about it but actually do something about it - and yes ammo and guns will also be needed - this pandemic that we are experiencing now is nothing compared to what could happen

Lots of cyber traffic in the last few weeks in regards to an event about to happen. Always a good idea to be stocked up at home and self sufficient for at least a week.

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Originally Posted by impact

Lots of cyber traffic in the last few weeks in regards to an event about to happen. Always a good idea to be stocked up at home and self sufficient for at least a week.

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A week is no where near what you want - it should be at least 6 months - even more

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Originally Posted by glen

Why isn’t there a tax to fight solar flares?

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Don't give Turdeau any ideas, PLEASE!

Having anything is better then what most have now. The average family has 2 weeks of edible food on stock at any given time.

8KG of Walmart white rice will feed a family of 4 for 8 days and is $12.
Building 1 year of balanced food stock can be planned and bought over time. I have put together $20 a week plans, 1 week, 2 week plans. The key factor in timeline to hit is 60 days balanced nutrition stock.. Once you reach that 60 days, switch to buying bulk of items on that list.

I have always considered the 60 day mark, as base point to last, as many will die off within those 60 days. What is/will be left is the worst element, roving gangs, well organizer and battle hardened survivors who need to keep looting and killing to survive..they will be specifically/actively looking for preppers

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Originally Posted by impact

Lots of cyber traffic in the last few weeks in regards to an event about to happen. Always a good idea to be stocked up at home and self sufficient for at least a week.

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Don’t forget your amateur radio.

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Originally Posted by mosquito

Imagine perhaps ... a week... or much more likely without power, probably longer with no internet.... it could easily happen!





September 2, 1859...
Campers in the Rocky Mountains wake up in the middle of the night, thinking that the glow they see is sunrise. No, it's the Northern Lights. People in Cuba read their morning paper by the red illumination of aurora borealis.
...
As the day unfolded, the gathering storm electrified telegraph lines, shocking technicians and setting their telegraph papers on fire. The "Victorian Internet" was knocked offline. Magnetometers around the world recorded strong disturbances in the planetary magnetic field for more than a week.

The cause of all this was an extraordinary solar flare witnessed the day before by British astronomer Richard Carrington. His sighting on Sept. 1, 1859, marked the discovery of solar flares and foreshadowed a new field of study: space weather. According to a NASA-funded study by the National Academy of Sciences, if a similar storm occurred today, it could cause a trillion dollars in damage to society's high-tech infrastructure and require years for complete recovery.


Some reading material....

http://spaceweather.com/

https://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/X17/

https://www.space.com/12584-worst-so...s-history.html

https://www.space.com/7224-150-years...lar-storm.html

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...event-science/

https://science.nasa.gov/science-new...arringtonflare

Potential for bigger?
https://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580

2012 .... the day the storm missed... thankfully! A couple of the tabloid news had titles like "Solar flare nearly destroyed Earth 2 years ago: NASA" .... destroyed .... a trillion dollars in damage...that would be true.... catastrophe BIG yep!
https://science.nasa.gov/science-new...jul_superstorm

and a few years later
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...space-science/

The 2017 article had an interesting couple lines....
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ade-180964794/
"In fact, solar activity has diminished so much in recent decades that some researchers believe we are soon heading into a “Little Ice Age” event similar to the event that led to globally-cooler temperatures during the late 1700s and early 1800s. "


Those things that make you go ...huh? Wonder what a wind turbine would be like in a solar storm.... but hey.... a few billion on wind turbines ..... that right now are producing ... 237Mw .... less than 2% of Ontario's power.... and Niagara Falls (Beck 1 & 2) ... 1,400+ for perspective... I digress.... sorry.
http://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html

..... I'm sure the gov't etc have a plan..... by now....
Canada's space agency is studying whether a big solar storm could send us back to the Stone Age
https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...-the-stone-age
Systems aren’t necessarily easy to back up. In North America, Langlois said, it can take six months to produce transformers used in power grids. If multiple transformers are affected by a solar storm and stop working, there’d be some tough decisions. “Who gets the first one? Canadians are going to freeze to death if they don’t get heat,” he said. It’s not necessarily easy to transport them, either — they’re the size of houses.

An intense solar storm could also affect satellites and knock out, whether temporarily or more permanently, the global positioning system. A lack of GPS, or a lapse in accuracy, would affect aircraft (both manned and unmanned) and, in the not-so-distant future, things like driverless cars. “We’re getting heavily dependent on space,” Langlois said.

... seems atleast they do..
https://nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/reso...lar-flares.cfm


For YOUR plan...
https://www.todayshomeowner.com/how-...-solar-storms/

Imagine the Torontonians wearing their tin foil hats...:moose:

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"if a similar storm occurred today, it could cause a trillion dollars in damage to society's high-tech infrastructure and require years for complete recovery."


If that means getting rid of telephone messaging and answering service, and we can get a living breathing human being instead of an answering service posing a million and one options - bring it on!!!!

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

"if a similar storm occurred today, it could cause a trillion dollars in damage to society's high-tech infrastructure and require years for complete recovery."


If that means getting rid of telephone messaging and answering service, and we can get a living breathing human being instead of an answering service posing a million and one options - bring it on!!!!

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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And for once, we could live life without facebook, whatsap, google, instagram, tik tok, apple, government tracking our every move and keyboard strike.

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Originally Posted by MarkB

And for once, we could live life without facebook, whatsap, google, instagram, tik tok, apple, government tracking our every move and keyboard strike.

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My family and I did it back in 1998 with the ice storm. We lost Hydro for 28 days. Pole (with transformer) came down in the yard. No generator for back up power. It was like little house on the prairie but in January with a couple of feet of snow, covered with 2" of ice.

It took about a week just to clear our 800m lane of fallen trees so a crew could get back up in here...eventually :)

I was a good opportunity to learn what was needed for survival, what to keep on hand and what to plan for in the future. Winter puts a whole different slant on things let me tell you. No power on a rural property means NO water !!

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Originally Posted by MikePal

My family and I did it back in 1998 with the ice storm. We lost Hydro for 28 days. Pole (with transformer) came down in the yard. No generator for back up power. It was like little house on the prairie but in January with a couple of feet of snow, covered with 2" of ice.

It took about a week just to clear our 800m lane of fallen trees so a crew could get back up in here...eventually :)

I was a good opportunity to learn what was needed for survival, what to keep on hand and what to plan for in the future. Winter puts a whole different slant on things let me tell you. No power on a rural property means NO water !!

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Just seriously wondering ... did you salvage ice and melt it to make water?

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Originally Posted by MarkB

Just seriously wondering ... did you salvage ice and melt it to make water?

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Yes..and put chunks of it on top of the stuff in the freezer. We had farm animals then so buckets were set up by the fireplace to melt water down for them..the horses were the worse. We had to pull ice of the snow so they could get at the snow underneath until we were finally able to head to town and get the 45 gallons drums filled at the firehall. They also let us use their phone to contact family.

Forming a group to strengthen your possibility of survival is a option but that cannot be without the possibility of disaster because depending on the make up of the group people will still look out for themselves rather than each other - this would only work if the group was made of family members who love each other and have a common bond - a group of strangers will eventually disintegrate when things fall apart - it would be difficult for gangs from the inner cities to travel out into the country side because gas will be unavailable very quickly - besides most of the people in the area where I live are well armed and know how to use their weapons - any people meaning to do harm would be quickly deal with - this is just another reason why an armed citizenry is vial

I miss the Ice storm of 1998 that was an awesome couple weeks of partying.Back then we didn't have a genny or wood stove. But my neighbour had a wood stove. My wife and kids moved into her sisters place and I told the wife that I and my brother in law had to guard the house for thieves so we stayed next door and partied for 2 weeks.

However I am all prepped now.

Saw this in my news feeds...

Growing risk of once-in-a-century solar superstorm that could knock out internet, study says
https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/grow...says-1.5579689



Wonder who would be a good PM during a crisis like this.....

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Originally Posted by mosquito

Saw this in my news feeds...

Growing risk of once-in-a-century solar superstorm that could knock out internet, study says
https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/grow...says-1.5579689



Wonder who would be a good PM during a crisis like this.....

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Is it not ironic that Elon Musk is launching Starlink satellites by the thousands.
He is not very concerned now, is he?
There will be an internet outage in the near future but it will be utilized to de-program and educate the population worldwide.

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Originally Posted by impact

Is it not ironic that Elon Musk is launching Starlink satellites by the thousands.
He is not very concerned now, is he?
There will be an internet outage in the near future but it will be utilized to de-program and educate the population worldwide.

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Would probably be a good thing, was discussing yesterday with my buddy how much of our problems would disappear if everyone just got rid of their "smart" phones.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

I've always been an advocate for being "prepared", but I've always found that most people look at you as some sort of whacko if I dare bring the subject up?

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Don't sell yourself short, BM. We've always thought of you as some sort of whacko. But a likeable and harmless one.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

Don't sell yourself short, BM. We've always thought of you as some sort of whacko. But a likeable and harmless one.

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You're too kind. My prepper supply of scotch is still off limits though, so don't be knocking on my door.

I knew I should have stayed quiet.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

You're too kind. My prepper supply of scotch is still off limits though, so don't be knocking on my door.

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Maybe we could compare and trade. I'm mostly a lowland single malt kinda guy.

Well, a bit off topic but I may as well just use this as an astronomy thread than create new ones all the time. Not much of a chance of Northern lights or storm but there will be the Leonid meteor shower and a partial lunar eclipse this week.

https://www.al.com/news/2021/11/leon...this-week.html

https://www.spaceweather.com

Lunar eclipse blood flower moon this weekend
https://spaceweather.com/

Lucky us, sun can't hit us... so far, potential for up to an X class flare but so far.

"THE SUN CAN'T SHOOT STRAIGHT: So far this week, the sun has flared more than 20 times and hurled nearly as many CMEs into space. Not one of the storm clouds is heading for Earth. " - see article on space weather and the gif of some of the misses.
https://spaceweather.com/images2022/12may22/offtarget_cme_anim.gif

and in Burkes Falls...
Security camera captures a flash in the night sky | Watch (msn.com)
Security camera captures a flash in the night sky | Watch (msn.com)