Interesting what would you do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtGZh8KFrSw
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Interesting what would you do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtGZh8KFrSw
In New Hampshire,party hunting is not allowed. Once the tag is filled,the hunter can not Deer hunt. He/she has 12 hours to take the Deer to a check station where everything is recorded as to date,time and exact location where the deer was shot BEFORE the carcass gets butchered. CO's check the station's records,at least, every second day cross matching all information with deer license and tag sales records. The least discrepancy sends the Wardens right to your house. I'm really surprised the warden bought the story. Our guys would have cleaned him out.
Sounds about right.... That is a good show, used to watch it all the time but now, getting tired of showing hunters in a negative light. Why don`t they ever show hunters in a positive manner, surely hunters do more good than bad, Show seems one sided to me.
I tend to agree,but,we must remember that the "good guys" don't sell advertising and CO's main job is to get the "bad guys".Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
NB and NS are similar no party hunting for deer, moose or bear. As well as soon as you shoot a deer or moose you must head directly to a reporting station.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
This hunter make a couple of mistakes that had him looking suspicious and caused the investigation.The game wardens did their job and reached the a just conclusion.I don,t think the show is one sided as its trying to highlight the good job the good guys are doing on the bad guys or potential bad guys like this hunter.
guilty but they obviously thought there was a chance a judge would buy his story and it wasn't worth their time.
That would have ended quite differently here in Ontario ...Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
Yes it would end differently here in Ontario as there would be no violation here.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Other than bird shot loaded when deer hunting....Use prohibited shot when hunting big game.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
You can hunt small game during a big game season, as long as you have hunter orange on.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Not when your shotgun is loaded with a slug. You are either deer hunting or bird hunting. You can’t be loaded with slugs and birdshot...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
You didn’t watch the video, did you ??
You cannot hunt small game with anything larger than #2 shot during a big game hunt unless you also have a license to hunt big game at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Where does it say in Ontario that you cannot use a slug for rabbit hunting?
In the video, buddy No longer had a deer tag, ( no party hunting there ) So, if you are Bird hunting here with no deer licence, loaded with a slug, you are toast !! If you are party hunting deer with a deer licence and loaded with birdshot and slugs, you are toast.....you should know this stuff !Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
As far as your stupid question goes, you can’t hunt rabbits with a slug during a big game season unless you have the appropriate licence and are big game hunting.
You stated "That would have ended quite differently here in Ontario …" and these comments are in response to that comment.
What laws did he break if this happened here? Throwing an other jurisdictions laws is just a deflection.
Huh ???? If the situation happened here, what jurisdiction’s regulations would you think would be applied ?? Certainly not Maine’s........if those were our COs, in Ontario, given the same scenario, you bet it would have ended differently ! You can’t hunt deer with a shotgun loaded with bird shot !! If buddy says he is bird hunting with a shotgun loaded with a slug, that’s an offence as well....Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
The person you blew up at said that in Ontario there would not have been any problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
It is not illegal in Ontario to hunt small game with slugs during a deer hunt if you have the appropriate license, using your tag does not get rid of your license as you can still be party hunting, again, not illegal in Ontario.
That is what the response was to you.
I am done.
You can’t deer hunt with a shotgun loaded with birdshot......buddies gun had both slug and birdshot....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Finally!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If there is an open season for big game, you cannot carry slugs or buckshot if you do not have a licence and tag for that big game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Pembroke CO's regularly bust guys for hunting bear without a license if they have slugs with them while bird hunting.
From the regs:
Firearms
If you are hunting small game in an area
where there is an open season for deer,
moose, elk, or black bear, you may not
possess or use a centre-fire rifle or shells
loaded with ball or with shot larger than
No. 2 shot (non-toxic equivalents include
steel shot larger than triple BBB, or bismuth
larger than double BB), unless you possess
a valid licence to hunt deer, moose, elk
or black bear as the case may be
You are correct. However, you can’t carry a shotgun loaded with both slug and birdshot, as in the video.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
If you say you are deer hunting, your gun can’t be loaded with birdshot. If you say you are bird hunting, you can’t be loaded with slugs. The fact that there’s an open season and you have a big game licence, your gun is still loaded with birdshot which is illegal.
You can’t do both at the same time....
Sections 75 and 77 Ont. Reg. 665/98 refers...
anyone here ever shoot a rabbit with a slug?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
the sick part of me is semi-curious of what would be left...
I think you can be hunting "both at the same time". As long as you have both licenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
If you had a double gun and had a slug in one barrel and birdshot in the other - well then you're hunting birds with one barrel and slugs with the other.
I've been checked by CO's when I was carrying both shot and slugs - they are okay with it as long as you have both licences.
If you said you were specifically hunting deer, but had birdshot with you and a small game license - well that would be a bit strange.
The thing I find strange about this law and it's enforcement is that it's okay to carry slugs when no big game season is open - but as soon as one opens, then you can't.
I've shot both grouse and rabbits with CF rifle. Just shoot them in the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrockerpj
Section 77 clause 2 explicitly says that you can do both at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Despite clause (1) (b), a holder of a small game licence, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, may possess and use,
(a) in the case of shot made of steel, shot that is not larger than triple BBB steel shot; or
(b) in the case of shot made of bismuth, shot that is not larger than double BB bismuth shot. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (2).
Yes, some sections say “use”, others say “possess”. Again, with all these laws, it boils down to who checks you and what his/her interpretation is....Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Both the official regs and the summary state "use" in this case with regard to a holder of both big and small game licenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
If you don't have the appropriate license, the word "posess" applies.
Not a lot open to interpretation. It's actually all pretty simple and straight-forward.
No, 77 outlines the size of shot #2, that is prohibited...the exception are noted in the clauses that mention bismuth and steel shot sizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Nothing in that section says you can load slugs and birdshot at the same time..
Does it say you can't? Or are you reading more into it than is there...in writing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Despite clause (1) (b), a holder of a small game licence, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, may possess and use,
(a) in the case of shot made of steel, shot that is not larger than triple BBB steel shot; or
(b) in the case of shot made of bismuth, shot that is not larger than double BB bismuth shot. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (2).
Keep reading it until it makes sense.
The wording in the sections usually say “shall not”....Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Ok I will play along. Does it say, 'shall not'? If it does not, say, 'shall not', you are wrong...sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
there is nothing wrong with deer hunting and bird hunting at the same time if you have licences for both. I chose to focus on deer when deer hunting, but some don't mind shooting birds if the opportunity arises. You can indeed carry bird shot and slugs at the same time if you choose and are licensed for both species being hunted.
In part it does say "shall not" but also goes on the say where this doesn't apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Only using a small part of the section can distort it's meaning.
75. A person shall not use a rifle known as a rim-fire rifle, a shotgun smaller than 20 gauge when loaded with shot or any shotgun loaded with shot smaller than SG or number one buck for hunting big game. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 75.
77. (1) A person hunting small game, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, shall not possess or use,
(a) a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds; or
(b) shells loaded with ball or shot larger than number two shot. O. Reg. 49/11, s. 18.
(2) Despite clause (1) (b), a holder of a small game licence, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, may possess and use,
(a) in the case of shot made of steel, shot that is not larger than triple BBB steel shot; or
(b) in the case of shot made of bismuth, shot that is not larger than double BB bismuth shot. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (2).
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a holder of a small game licence hunting in that part of Ontario lying south of the French and Mattawa rivers during an open season for deer that is restricted to the use of bows. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (3).
Well, back to the original question. Unless you are really anal about dumping your pockets of slug or buckshot and filling them with with the appropriate birdshot only, there is the chance of mixing rounds in your pockets. Heck, there's even the chance of when you put your rounds back in the boxes you might mix them up if they're the same colour. Is it illegal to have a deer grunt hanging around your neck while hunting birds? Too many ifs. He got his break and it's recorded.
On the side, how many carry a slug when bird hunting while in bear country just in case.
All my hunting is in bear country and I normally carry slugs - but I keep them separate from birdshot - usually in the front pocket of my jeans. Birdshot goes in an ammo belt or jacket pockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman
Mixing rounds - slugs and birdshot - could be a fatal mistake if you are hunting with others. So yeah - I'm really anal about this - it's a safety issue.
… and I really don't want to be blasting a bear with birdshot if I really needed a slug.
The show in particular - I think the CO gave him a huge break - more than I would have.
Thank-you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
"a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds," They finally came to their senses and change this to read you may only use rim-fire rifles. I know this because I've made attempts to convince the head CO that you can easily reload any centre-fire rifle below the 400 ft-lb level. I do it all the time, I have no use for .22's. In most cases you can load .30 calibers rifles with a ball of .30 caliber buckshot and a few grains of powder to makes a great small game load. I have a .445 caliber ball to adopt my 43 Mauser to the same end.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
The head CO's view was it is not about the ammunition you have, but what the manufactures specs make the rifle capable of. When you are working with an obsolete firearm they are not likely to have much in terms of manufactures specs. So unless you have an old Spenser rifle, the rim-fire restriction eliminates the use of any centre-fires. They could have achieved the same end by saying: "a rifle CAPABLE of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds," Although it was not stated in that matter, quite rightly or wrongly, that is what the head CO was reading into the regulation. Going back to rim-fire remove any misinterpretation.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
I saw that show and I think the guy got a huge break. The grunt call around his neck would have sealed the deal for me. He was definitely party hunting.
Same opinion here, he was lucky to get off with just a warning!Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
I once went for a morning hunt on the last day of muzzleloader season. I got up from my spot at the end of my hunt and started down the field edge. It was my last hunt of the year so I needed to discharge the muzzleloader, which I planned to do once I got away from the bush. A cottontail happened to skip up ahead of me. It only went 20 yards or so and froze. The 45 cal slug neatly carved a semicircle out of the top of its head, leaving both ears intact.Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrockerpj
Glad I logged on today to read this thread.
Re - the video - the crime hadn't been committed yet . . . no charges.
According to our def. of hunting as per regulations, , He would have been charged.Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
with what?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
agreed, in Ontario I don't think he would have been charged with anything as he could be party hunting with his buddy. Where he was he should have beenQuote:
Originally Posted by toddy
Hunting Deer, without a license.Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
It's called "prima facie " evidence, which has been used in charges many times .
In his case, slug in gun as first shot, grunt tube around his neck, this is not the way to hunt birds.
If he was party hunting , he still would have had to produce his Deer License, obviously he did not have it, and there is no party hunting in the U.S.
"Prima facie is defined as something that has been proven or assumed to be true unless there is evidence presented to the contrary. "
To add to the debate above-the guy was having a semi.He had in the pipe a slug,then a bird shot.That what the game warded states.
This seals the deal-no one bird hunts with slugs( making a statement about it is quite clear).Forgetting it in would raise many questions about safe handling/transportation while dealing with the deer he shot earlier.
With grunt tube in his neck and slug in the pipe he is effectively deer hunting.To many things he forgot.
Now-Party hunting there is not OK.He got off easy.
In Ontario having both licences for small game and deer makes him party hunting for deer with his buddies(in the video there is no reference of him not harvesting deer legally- he had a licence for deer)and makes him small game hunting based on what he stated,and some of the ammo in his shotgun.
The monkey wrench in the gear box is a mixed ammo in his shotgun.
In Ontario :
He would be a special kind of small game hunter hunting birds with slug-but he would be legal.
He would be legal party hunting deer while with his buddies as well.
However:
He could have been charged for intending to hunt deer with non legal shot (as in his shotgun ).
I believe there is a difference in having a firearm loaded with (as he did)and having in his possession(birds shot in the pocket for the what if...).
The auto shotgun is the key -it is not built for selective shot opportunities,so having a bird shot as a second ammo makes him deer hunt with nonlegal ammo.
What is the fine in Ontario for that ??
Probably ,as someone mentioned earlier,this infraction in Ontario would be so negligible,he would get a verbal no-no,and maybe gone on his records,and he would walk.The issue is so small,likely it would be deemed as waste of resources to pursue it more.
If someone would chime in knowing what would be the fine,we could compare the"there"and "here" outcome.
I disagree. Where he was he should have been charged.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
If he was in Ontario, he would have been legal to party hunt for deer and so what if he had a couple bird shot in his gun. If he saw a bird, he could eject the slug and shoot the bird. Completely legal in Ontario
But he wasn't in Ontario, so he was breaking the party hunting laws. Someone said he would have been charged in Ontario and I don't see what he could be charged with since we allow party hunting.
FWCA Sect 75 "Use prohibited shot while hunting big game" should answer the question. The set fine is $300.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
[QUOTE=trimmer21;1101019]FWCA Sect 75 "Use prohibited shot while hunting big game" should answer the question. The set fine is $300.[
Here we go again!!!!!
[/75 - O.Reg 665/98
Use prohibited shot when hunting big game
Set Fine: $300.00
Total Payable: $365.00
A person shall not use a rifle known as a rim-fire rifle, a shotgun smaller than 20 gauge when loaded with shot or any shotgun loaded with shot smaller than SG or number one buck for hunting big game.
Thanx Trimmer,so there is the answer for the set fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
He got off "cheaper" there..............
[QUOTE=rick_iles;1101020]Thanx Rick-so with the surcharge, he would be having a hefty lessons learned.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
so all the guys that hunt with a double barrel rifle/shotgun with bird shot in the shot barrel are breaking the law in Ontario? I don't buy it. If you have a licence to hunt small game (say grouse) and deer licence I have and will continue to hunt for grouse and deer at the same time. I don't think a CO would argue that you were deer hunting with 7.5 shot if he checked and you had slugs and shot.
Might be a good question for a CO to clarify, but it might be one of those grey areas that are open to CO interpretation. I'll take my chances as I don't believe there is anything wrong with that and feel confident that a CO would agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
In the case You mentioned , if You are hunting with a selective fire capable shotgun(ie side by side or an over and under)where You can select the barell to discharge,likely you will be ok.
However the video showed a semi auto shotgun chambered with a slug,then a birdshot.
If the guys is bird hunting(as stated in the video)-why have the first shot to be a slug???Then a deer call in his neck to boot.
In your case ,what the CO's answer would be,only the CO would tell.
I get that in his case he was guilty. The conservation changed to if he was in Ontario would there be charges and I don’t think so. Semi or not. Easy to eject a slug then shoot a bird
[QUOTE=FishHog;1101055]I get that in his case he was guilty. The conservation changed to if he was in Ontario would there be charges and I don’t think so. Semi or not. Easy to eject a slug then shoot a bird[/QUOTE]
You would have to be the fastest man on earth to eject a slug and shoot a grouse that took to wing , that ! I /we would really like to see.:rolleye:
[QUOTE=jaycee;1101079]Who said I was shooting the ones that flew. Have you never seen one before it took off?Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
Go back and read the regulation: “ A person shall not use... any shotgun loaded with shot smaller than SG or number one buck for hunting big game.” If it was deer season and you had a valid licence and had a slug in the barrel, and in an area where deer might reasonably be found, then that is “prima facie” (clear on its face) evidence that you are hunting deer. As per the reg you can’t have bird shot in your shotgun while deer hunting. It’s pretty clear to me. In order to shoot a grouse you would have to stop deer hunting e.g. unload your buckshot or slug then load up with bird shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
Sam,this is pretty clear to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
If You read the posts, you will see my post is now on" Ontario what if" and the side by side or over under.
Even there i put the"you will be likely" ok note.................
I think the rest(over there and semi shotgun with mixed ammo) is clear ,to most.
However ,for O/U or SS,i still think the area can be grey,and the CO would likely need to decide.
Why - i think reasoning of selective fire capability have merits.Providing-we are not debating that aspect-the person has applicable licences.
Combination guns(with different projectile in each barrel)while not very common,they are legal and viable" tools of the trade",used following all applicable rules and regulations.
Yet same scenario applies to them as well.
I am otherwise impartial not owning any of the above guns........:o
Like I said it’s a good question for a co but I suspect it’s up to the individual to decide. You guys feel it’s clear but I don’t. No where can I find that you can’t deer hunt and bird hunt at the same time. And I can deer hunt with slugs and bird hunt with shot. I really don’t believe anyone would accuse me of deer hunting with 7.5 shot
You're quite correct that we can bird hunt and Deer hunt at the same time (as long as we have a valid Deer license). The OP's video cited New Hampshire,specifically. Their F&G laws are different from ours here in Ontario. We're allowed to party hit even after filling a tag. In NH,it's not legal to party hunt. One of the posters raised the subject of illegal shot size for big game hunting which added to the confusion. That subject may have been better handled in another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
Not all S/S or O/U shotguns have selective fire capabilities, and most used for hunting purposes are choked full and modified and neither of those chokes will shot slugs accurately, slugs shoot best out of cyl. bore barrels.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
So this kind of throws a monkey wrench into your argument.
Sorry, but, shooting slugs thru smooth bores, you never know how it will shoot until you try it with the proper slugs, and most modern double barrels used for hunting are not choked full n mod, and if the double barrel does not have selective triggers, and different choked barrels, you load accordingly...Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
As far i know either you have selective trigger capability,or double trigger.Which gives the option to the user.But i can be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
As far as accurately shooting slugs from mod.choke-well i did that when i was hunting deer way back with a pump action shotgun,and harvested more then one deer.Actually once a buddy of mine was questioning me about why i use mod.choke for slugs-and honestly i just did not know any better.
Maybe my shotgun was not aware of the issue either:ashamed:
Anyway -Happy New Year to all!
There are many sxs o/u Shotguns out there that have only one trigger and are not selective.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
Going around to all the Gun Shows , the guns I see are mainly choked Full and Mod. If you find one that has less /more open chocks, they are highly desirable.
Most newer guns come equipped with choke tubes now days and do have selective triggers or double triggers.
Happy New Year!
It doesn’t matter if you have selective trigger capability, you can’t have bird shot in your shotgun while hunting big game.
Says who? Might be how you interpret it but I don’t agree. I think you can if you’re hunting birds and deer at the same time. I sometimes carry a pellet pistol for birds while deer hunting. I can’t deer hunt with a pellet pistol but I’ve shown it to a co and he had no issues with itQuote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
But since you said it so factually you must have something to back that up. I don’t know the answer for sure so would like to know your source as you seem to
The point that I was trying to make is that, if you are using a shotgun to hunt big game, you cannot have slugs/buckshot and birdshot loaded or in the magazine at the same time. You can, however, hunt big game with additional firearms at the same time, thereby allowing you to hunt big game and small game at the same time. You can also hunt big game and small game with the same shotgun provided that you don't have a combination of slug/buckshot and bird shot loaded or in the magazine at the same time. For example, let's say you are hunting small game with a pump shot gun loaded with #4 shot. Furthermore, let's assume that bear season is open and you have a valid licence so you want to carry some slugs in case Yogi happens to present himself. The law says that you can't have both types of shot in your shotgun at the same time. You can have one or the other in your gun but not both.Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Pls. Quote the actual law , to clarify this .
I'm glad that you asked this question because I went back and re-read the regulations and realized that my previous answer is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Section 75 applies to persons hunting big game and says that they cannot use a shotgun loaded with shot smaller than SG or number one buck. (nothing about possession)
Section 77 applies to persons hunting small game and says "during an open season in the area for a species of big game, shall not possess or use shot that is larger than: #2 lead shot, BBB steel, or BB bismuth. (There are no exceptions to holder of a valid big game licence).
Because S.77 includes the word "possess", it prevents hunters from hunting both small and big game simultaneously. The exception is if a hunter carries another firearm dedicated to the other class of game (as per the "Ask a CO column).
Sorry Sam,not arguing ,but ....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
If you flip the 2019 Hunting regulation summary,page 91,top right,it says:
If you are hunting small game in an area
where there is an open season for deer,
moose, elk, or black bear, you may not
possess or use a centre-fire rifle or shells
loaded with ball or with shot larger than
No. 2 shot (non-toxic equivalents include
steel shot larger than triple BBB, or bismuth
larger than double BB), unless you possess
a valid licence to hunt deer, moose, elk
or black bear as the case may be. This
restriction does not apply south of the
French and Mattawa rivers during an open
season for deer that is restricted to the use
of bows.
I am sorry,but i do not see what You say...........and as i mentioned,i do not own shotguns as debated(neither pump,semi or O/U or SS,and as a matter of fact i do not even hunt small game lately)but the facts are facts.
Thank You,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
I did not want to appear as a know it all, I hoped you would reread that section and correct your statement .
Typical regulations. I’m still confused. Not trying to argue just trying to understand and I still don’t see it clearly
if I’m hunting small game it says I can’t possess larger shot unless I have a big game license. So since I do I still think I can bird hunt and deer hunt at the same time.
it’s not that big of an issue for me one way or the other but would like to know
appreciate everyone’s input. It’s unfortunate it’s not more clear
It's pretty clear if you just read the regulations and ignore the crap you read on the internet.
I've pasted the relevant sections from the regs somewhere several pages ago.
Read them until they make sense. Ignore the noise.