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We've had the discussion more than once on 'which caliber is best' to hunt deer with.....saw this video today and it shows three of the most popular rounds on the market tested against a practical target..ie with space between hard surfaces.
Much harder than the hide on a deer and obviously just as good on moose. It gets the point across.
No real surprises, but good to prove out what most guys already know....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKzit3Icck
Not much difference between them all with 3 pans. I’d like to see six pans and a pointed tip 3030 round.
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Would have been nice to see the results from the same bullet eg: 150 grain core lokt
Good video Mike
Those skillets must have been made in China...
Double the distance and the amount of frying pans..
Rather a strange comparison, cast iron skillets verses what those calibers will do on live deer ???
They will all kill deer, moose, and bear , so what's the point of ruining good cast iron skillets?
A better test would have been a bunch of dampened phone books together and see what the depth of penetration would be between those three calibers.
It's not a penetration test....it's a pass thru test, going thru different mediums. Results show the bullet performance in creating an exit wound channel. Which, to a hunter, is the answer sought when you ask "what is the best caliber" for large game".Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Sorry my opinion is like " Jaycee " had....
"So what's the point of ruining good cast iron skillets?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
I've been shooting cast iron skillets for years, great backyard gongs, perfect size and audible feed back. Shooting thick products like ballistic gel or wet paper products doesn't prove anything but distance to stop a bullet...not really applicable to a hunting scenario.
edit at...
Is the bullet resistance of x3 cast iron frying pans less than the resistance of a broadside double lung shot on a deer ?
This gives an idea of what happens when a bullet passes through internals.
https://youtu.be/E8E138NgyFs
I realize it's just for fun but after every shot that cast iron is definitely losing integrity. A better comparison would have been to use a different set of three pans for each caliber. Still interesting though, not much difference between them and a deer sure wouldn't notice.
It was still nice to see that the bullet from all 3 calibers passed through all 3 cast iron pans each making a larger hole and still left with enough kinetic energy to pass through the 3rd pan producing still a larger exit hole or wound should it have been an animal. And Mike made a valid point in that is what we want when hunting with a rifle...
Shooting steel cannot be compared to flesh. A soft point 270 can blast through 1/4" steel plate, yet not always penetrate through even a deers shoulders.
Or what is the best bullet, depending on the type of game. A soft point and tsx are two totally different beasts from the same cartridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
IMHO this test proves one thing for sure-anyone can say anything on the Youtube,mostly for fame and /or money.
The energy of those bullets at the distance shown is plenty to punch holes thru 3 skillets.
While deer are regularly shot at that range,the difference comes from application,and there is where the difference is.
No one should challenge any of the 3 calibers AT the proper range applicable to them.
Perhaps also with proper bullet construction and weight,but that is another chapter.
Otherwise good entertainment and definitely shows the effect of the 3 calibers at short range on 3 skillets -thanx for it.
Cheers
Bingo...that was the point of the video most seem to have missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty55
That and the guy had an opportunity to shot a Win 94 30-30 and show how awesome it is :)
You forgot Mike, any gun not made in the last 10 years and with a cartridge without Magnum in the name cannot possibly kill these modern Millennial deer, it is just impossible :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
For all you 30-30 haters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8-L3PMtID0
12:30 he shoots the meat target with 44 and 30-30, so see how a 30-30 does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNiDwprzoo4
Yep pretty much sums it up, don't use it for elk and past 150yds on deer, don't bother it's useless....lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Lots of elk shot every year in OntarioQuote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
No offence meant to anyone who loves those guns but every time I grab a 30-30 I throw up in my mouth a little bit.
I’ve owned a few and never liked any of them very much.
They will kill just about anything but honestly there are so many other more versatile rounds out there.
But hey I kill all my deer with an ml so don’t take my opinion seriously!
The same sort of feeling that I get when I look at or read about the 270 Win I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
30-30 with open sights was the go to animal for the first 15 years I hunted. But I was always dogging and never blocked. The last 15 years the style of the hunt has changed to blinds and treestands on fencelines overlooking open fields so the weapon of choice has changed as well.
https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...the-most-deer/
Interesting short read, scroll 3/4 of the way down to see what three major cartridge manufacturers have to say.
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Would like to hear why you are not a fan of a .270???..............................DanielQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Can someone give me an example of a better bush gun than a 3030. I always bring it along on deer hunts. If I’m sitting in a stand my scoped 308 Is the go to rifle. If we decide to push. It’s the 3030. It has its place. It’s taken down plenty of very large moose over the years. It has its place and certainly not a useless rifle. It’s short. It goes bang. And it’s just an awesome rifle. Sure there are rifles that can shoot further with more accuracy. When moose hunting. Distance has never been an obstacle. All kills have been within 150 yards. It’s a killer. No doubt. And I don’t vomit in my mouth when I pick it up.
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Sure a browning blr and a plethora of other rifles, to many to list.
Weak, weak, weak. That’s response tells me you can’t name many. And yes the browning blr. That a pretty big rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
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I gave you what you asked for, an example. Your return comment shouts sore loser...:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
Sore loser, Wtf. You haven’t gave me a better example. The browsing blr. In your opinion. That’s better. Not to meQuote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
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Keep it clean. You don't need the name calling.
Agree 100%. Choice is a great thing. I carry a lever gun (either the 30-30 or the 45-70) at least a couple of days every gun season. If I know I'll be in close cover for the day and 75 yards is a long shot, I'll take one of the short handy rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
I've shot a handful of deer with a 30-30 and they've all been short, easy tracking jobs. They kill very well within their range.
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I dont care what you carry, You just better know how to operate and be proficient with it.
Goose, What gun are you talking about? Canadaman lists a rifle, You just listed one cartridge.
I remember when I was young I shot at an old frying pan in a scrap pile with my .22 about 20 yards away. Heard it hit the scrap car I was leaning on. It ricocheted back. That was a good learning experience, Got lucky that day.
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I’m talking about my win model 94 in 3030. Is as good as any other rifle Or even more versatile in the thick brush because if it’s small size. Don’t have to worry aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by SongDog
A clip.
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I have nothing against the .30-30 it’s the lever action that don’t work for me. When I need a short light handy rifle, I take out my Kimber Hunter in .308. I don’t buy a rifle if it doesn’t have a detachable magazine. Haha. :scream: It’s whatever works for you.
If I had to pick "the best" brush gun - the ruger 44 mag carbine would be near the top of the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
Behind that the ruger 94/44 - although it's built with junky cheap parts compared to the 44 auto.
So behind the above two which I don't own is the M94 44mag trapper - nice and light but really limited to about 100 yards.
The m94 carbines in any of the .44mag/.30-30/.32spl are all about the same. The big bores are pretty nice too - but the weight and balance isn't as nice.
So when we're talking nice brush guns - I think it is the model of rifle we are really discussing - not the cartridge - which was what this thread is above.
Now we've been throwing around .30-30 as though it's synonymous with Winchester M94 - which muddles things up a bit.
But if we are just talking about the .30-30 - it comes a few rifles that aren't that great in the bush:
If you've every used a m94 rifle, not the carbine there is a big difference and it's length makes it a pain.
Likewise a .30-30 savage (technically still a .30-30) chambered in a savage lever action - still pretty nice but it's big and heavy similar to a blr.
Or a .30-30 Winchester - in a 340 savage bolt action - who was thinking what when they came up with this?
Back to the original post - I'm not sure the point of the "test" other than it's probably fun to shoot cast iron pans (or anything else cast iron) with a CF cartridge.
If you are checking penetration, you also want to see controlled expansion as well, and to do that you need to use some sort of semi-dense media. Softwood, phone books - whatever.
As an extreme example - a relatively soft slug moving not too fast (maybe a lead muzzle loader bullet) might pancake against something hard like cast iron, but might penetrate a softer substance more reasonably. Cast iron is brittle - so the penetration is a pass/fail, and the use of multiple layers doesn't do much to alleviate this problem.
Henry has some nice m94 clones that have detachable magazines - but the are not chambered in .30-30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
More the calibers that have pointed ammo. This was Henry's response to the marlin/Hornady flex tip long range ammo.
Likely a better solution for guys that want to pull off long range shots with a lever rifle.
The 6.5 creedmore even comes in a 22" barrel.
https://www.cabelas.com/product/HENRY-LONG-RANGE-LEVER-ACTION-RIFLES/2287076.uts
Lol sureQuote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
Rem 76/760/7600 carbine in heavy doggin 35 Rem or Whelen or heck an 06 would be ok with heaviest pill available
Lowly smooth bore/rifled short barrel slugger pump or semi in 20 or 12 will do a pile better in the nasty crap
Marlin short barrel 45-70 or 44 mag will do better.
Werner mentioned 44 Ruger semi - I just started loading for this round and I am impressed. It’s no long distance cartridge but in the 77/44 bolt I’m working with is more accurate than any Winny I’ve shot. Factory AE pistol rounds pushing 1850 plus on the chrony with a 240 XTP pill is hard to beat. I expect to get that closer to 2000 fps with some work.
30-30 levers work just fine and they kill deer just fine.
When I was younger I wanted to own one. Well I did that and had a pile since. 30-30 Win then same in a trapper and so on. I set out just a couple years ago to find an accurate load for another I had bought but as soon as I started I realized it was going to be the same as every other I’ve owned. 3 or 4 MOA at 100 just doesn’t work for me in the accuracy department.
Just don’t like them and haven’t seen one I’d really trust past a hundred yards. The Winchester’s feel like a club in my hands and the 30-30 as a cartridge is adequate but less than stellar from my perspective.
As for choosing it as a round for moose at 150 that is a surprise to see you think that is a good choice. Although they do have a 16 inch kill zone so that would help you some maybe. To pick that gun up over the 308 you own for moose doesn’t make much sense to me though.
To each their own and if it works for you great.
No Fox you take that back lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I like 270, it is easy to load for and lots of great bullet choices. I can’t think of one that hasn’t given me a 1/2 inch group or two at 100 with a bit of load development.
It’s all personal preference though.
I didn’t own a 308 when I hunted moose. I had a 3030. It worked just fine. Never hunted moose here in Ontario. They may be skiddish like deer and you need a rifle that can reach out far and grab them. Moose in NF are not this way. They are everywhere. In the towns, in my backyard walking up and down the streets in the town. A long distance rifle was not needed. I used what we had. They never up and ran away when you approached them. This remind me of a time I went out opening day. Didn’t see one in the cut overs. Left and came home. There was one in the backyard when I got home. I picked a bunch of long grass, walked up and feed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
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Reminds me of that clip on the news the first season of Elk hunting here. Camera was talking to a hunter and over his shoulder was a Bull nibbling on a tree branch in his yard. He said he couldn't see the sport in that HaHa...Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
Lol you got to be kidding! Wow that would be an experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
Definitely different out there. I’ve almost hit my fair share of those buggers while working that way.
People go a lifetime up here without seeing one. I was home for 10 days this past summer. Saw 3 my first two days there. 1 calf was dead on the road. Accident. The other two just crossed the road on my way to the cabin. Could have walked up and touched them. No kidding here. Once skidding I saw over a hundred in a field. My. Black lab was running up to them and they tried kicking him. There is a photo by a prominent photographer named Charlie Falk. He has a photo of moose. You can’t count them all in the picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
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Found this track out back near my turkey blind, one spring. Thought it might be the neighbours cow, then about 2 weeks later my daughter pulled in our laneway and there was a moose standing there. She got a phone video of it.
https://i.imgur.com/unSxRbol.jpg
Then a month or so later the news paper got this photo of a moose in a soy field about 3 miles from here (probably same one) ....less then 2 mile from our Hunt Camp.
This is about 1hr south of Ottawa.
https://i.imgur.com/ydm9hvgl.jpg
It is pretty much one guy who ruined the cartridge for me, it was his God and anything else (maybe he would accept the 30-06) was garbage. The big thing for me though is that for deer at close range it has too much velocity and tends to cause a lot of unnecessary trauma, it is a longer range rifle than the Eastern Ontario bush would allow, at 3100fps impact velocity it would turn a lot more than the vitals to jelly. I never used one, saw a lot of deer shot with them and the 30-06, the 130gr 270 was messy, the 180gr 30-06 was better, the 150 and 170gr 30-30 was better still and shotgun slugs, full bore, were the best when it came to excess damage but still a very dead deer. Funny enough the guys shooting the 270, probably more a fault of their own, were the longer tracking jobs, poor shot placement and shooting through brush did have an impact on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
It is personal preference, your smoke poles, a patched round ball, any shotgun slug, buckshot, any centerfire rifle, they all have a valid range for hunting deer, they have pros and cons and will lead to hundreds of years of arguments online and at the hunt camp.
I like slower bullets, 2500fps does not seem to do as much extra damage, the 180gr Winchester Power Point 303 Brit 2 years ago went through the deer quartering away, bullet lodged in the front knee, 153gr remaining and no excess meat damage, although the patched round ball this year broadside killed that deer just as dead as the 303 Brit the previous year.
i have to agree there nothing wrong with a 3030, carried one for years, then switched to the 44mag ruger carbine for heavy cover. i also will use if open bush my 3006 carbine. once i get out in the open switch up to the 270. but i still have this passion for the 3030 and will never lose that.
A lot of the .270's popularity today can be traced back to Jack O'Connor - a western US hunter/writer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
He liked it (over the .30-06) because it shot a bit flatter, reducing the accuracy required in range estimation (before range finders were around).
But he did a lot of horseback elk hunting where shooting long distances across valleys was the norm.
… I hope that Jack's not the guy that ruined the .270 for you.
With todays bullet construction a .270 is an excellent all round calibre
Good Ole "Jack O'Connor " great hunter, shot, writer and teacher.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Along with his favourite .270 , he did shoot other calibers and his wife shot a 7x 57 on many hunts, he and she also sot the .257 for it's flat shooting abilities .
In recent threads in the past week on CGN, a very well respected Yukon guide, (WhyNot) Ted, has stated in all his decades of guiding and hunting, he has seen more one shot kills with the 270 than any other cartridge. And his friend who hunts the interior for sheep and caribou has whacked more Grizzlies than most people have ever seen, all with winchester 150g PowerPoint. Both he and another respected BC guide have stated when clients ask they recommend the 270 winchester more than anything else. My results are no different since owning a 270, every animal its touched has dropped stone dead in its tracks.
I have a Marlin 336 in 30-30. I've spent some time preparing handloads for it, but I have not been able to achieve the results I'd like. I've considered giving up on it and selling it, but I really like the feel of the rifle and it's the only lever action I own, so I've kept it. I am planning to put together some handloads for it again this winter just to give it another shot, but I have become quite frustrated with the 30-30 and/or this rifle. Because I can't get decent accuracy out of my handloads, I never bring it deer hunting anymore, so I've never taken a deer with it. I'm sure it would do just fine, as long as I could hit where I aim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Lever actions are definitely a lot of fun to shoot though. I'm considering replacing mine with a 22 lever action - in my mind, that would be about the most fun combination you could find.
PQuote:
Originally Posted by rf2
Have you tried a lee factory crimp die for that gun?
If not I might have one I could lend you to test.
Yes, all my handloads for this rifle were crimped with one. Actually, that's not completely accurate - I made a small batch without a crimp to see if it would improve things, but it did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Are these micro groove barrel 30 30s or Ballard?
I dont really know a lot about this topic but I do want an old Marlin, Preferably .35rem and not sure what i should be looking for.
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I owned a JM 35 Rem. It shot sub MOA at 100 yards. Fun gun and fun to load for.
No idea on type of rifling but it was an oldy.
Have you screwed around with seating depth?Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
Nope, a guy that made me almost want to quit hunting, glad I left that camp.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
You are trying to justify the round by evidence, that is fine, a long range rifle, works great, still hate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
What you have to understand is that evidence proves just how good so many other cartridges can be, the 30-30 included. The 30-30 is at the top for sales and popularity in hunting deer in North America, up there with the 308 and 30-06 and with the 303 Brit in Canada.
The 30-30 has killed tons of grizzlies over the years, so has the 22HP and probably the 22LR.
And the 30-30 is about the most un-versatile medium game cartridge period . Its ballistics are poor, they are a short range gun. There is absolutely nothing great about them. Theres so many other great cartridges out there and the 30-30 is not one of them. Just because a product is cheap and widely available does not make it great or even good. A quick search reveals 2015 sales numbers, 223, 308, 30-06 beat the 30-30....
I'm a new .270win fan after using one in Africa last year. Shot two animals with a .300winmag (required bit of tracking)then switched to a .270win and got 3 with it. All dropped in their tracks. 140g Nosler accubond
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Nicely done congrats, sounds like a successful huntQuote:
Originally Posted by SongDog
I am not much of a car racing fan,but have some idea to help close this debate around 30-30(maybe....i hope...maybe not)
Anyway it is winter time,so lets do it:
There are 3 car races-Formula One-Daytona 500 and Paris -Dakar.Then there is John Doe driving to work...........
No one in the world would do all 3 races with the same car-with intent to have a fair chance to win in all 3 races,and use the same vehicle also to go to work..............
I would guess,no one here would argue about car selection for the above 4 applications.
Same goes with rifle calibers-while there are many good calibers out there,there is very little-if any universal caliber,which can be used in all applications :small game(rabbit )-medium game(whitetail) and large game(Yukon moose or an elephant).
If the user knows the limitations of his/her rifle-life is good.Same for cars....right?
The 30-30 is a good caliber(if used to its limitations)and has it s niche in the hunting world,AS LONG as the user knows the rifle's limitation,and lives by them.
Everything else is personal preference,as much relevant to the game being hunted with the caliber,as much lets say the color of the paint of a race car has something to do with the chance to win the race.
About bigger game shot with smaller caliber,or vice versa, remember,they are just exceptions that prove the rule .
We want to win the car race or get to work-right?
We are talking normal hunting,not surviving,showing off or 100 years old stories ,or else-right?
Just my 2 cents
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...37e12e174b.jpg
I can work with these ballistics. As said before, I love my 3030. Very fun to shoot, easy to wheel around in the bush, and it kills dear, moose and bear. Very effectively.
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Re: Leverevolution ammo - these have been worked up to look great ballistically. However, the .44mag and .444 marlin bullets fragment badly. I haven't used the .44mag on deer, but the .444 I haven't recovered a bullet in once piece and the ones that exited made multiple holes. Not good for hunting ammo. Haven't checked the .30-30 though. They shoot real nice on paper though.
Ballistics are what they need to be, out to 150 and even 200 yards with the RN or FP bullets are fine and you do not have to aim 3 feet over the back. The FTX loads are even better, but again, no point in a "discussion", you don't like it that is fine, you will never like it and it will continue to out sell most other cartridges and kill millions of animals or all types.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
That is because they are loaded with an SST bullet, my wife shoots the FTX and has not had a shot on a deer yet, I am not worried about killing it but I do not think it would be a good choice for heavier game.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
The problem with that FTX in 44 is that the bullet is short and fat, the pointed tip is almost a moot point, significantly less BC gain over the standard bullets but the 30-30 really shines with the pointed tip.
I want them to take a bonded bullet, maybe the interbond, and put this tip on it, then you would be jumping up significantly.
My plan is still to load 150gr Partitions in my wife's bolt action 30-30, higher BC and a tougher bullet that will still expand on lighter game like deer.
They are a sad attempt to try and increase the ballistics of lever guns. I would think the vast amount of 336, 94's have 20"barrels and not 24. They sure wont pass through the chrono with the same advertised numbersQuote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Somebody better fill the deer in on how poor the ballistics are, because 125 years later, they're still being regularly killed by this cartridge. How embarrassing for a species... and people say deer can be smart. Pffft.
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Coming from the guy who stated 99% of hunters have no business shooting over a 100yds with a rifle....
Poor deer when the 30.06 and .308 came out, they thought they were safe beyond 150 yards like they were when everyone shooting old levers LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by GW11
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Mine's a microgrooveQuote:
Originally Posted by SongDog
No, I just went with the length that lined up the mouth with the crimp groove. I like calibres/rifles that don't take a lot of fiddling with to get good results. The best I was able to achieve with my combo was about 1.5 MOA at 100 yards. Most attempts have given 2-3 MOA, including all attempts with Leverevolution powder and the Hornady FTX bullets. So far I don't see the potential of handloading for my combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
There was an article a while ago that talked about this, apparently the max load for lever revolution powder and FTX bullets is actually faster than the factory ammo, this combo does not seem to jive well with the Marlin micro groove rifling, the guy who wrote the article said that he had to back down to the factory velocity to get good groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
That being said 2-3 MOA is 4-6 MOA at 200 yards, so a perfectly acceptable accuracy for deer hunting in the majority of Ontario.
Are you aware that there are a number of bullets that are designed to blow up inside the vitals? They kill very well but often do not exit.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Berger bullets is one that is known for this, yet nobody seems to knock their bullets. If you want a bullet to exist then use one designed for penetration, the SST is not that.
I think that you should take a quick look at the BC numbers, I know you will not but I thought I would suggest it. The .308 160gr FTX bullet has a BC of 0.330, the 150gr RN is 0.186.
The advertised numbers do not mean boo, there is a significant increase in BC, meaning a significant decrease in lost velocity and therefore a significant increase in range with a significantly flatter trajectory.
Haha right!Quote:
Originally Posted by SongDog
If I can see 150 yards, I bring something more suited to the task. Choices are a nice luxury, I'm sure we can all agree on that.
That being said, there aren't too many places I currently hunt with a rifle for deer that I can see 150 yards at all. Although it's been a disputed point here, I think that's the reality for most Ontario rifle deer hunters. I've hunted in WMU 5, 8, 56, 60, 73 (shotgun,ML), 74A (shotgun, ML), and 74B for deer, and the longest shot I've had was 90 yards in a clear cut with a muzzle loader.
I did learn a long time ago that you don't need to use a sledgehammer to do a claw hammer's job. Ironically, I have shot the majority of my rifle deer with a 30-06. It's a lucky gun.
None of the deer I've taken with a 30-30 seemed to notice how inferior the ballistics are. They don't seem to notice much without lungs.
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Yes - some bullets - particularly light small caliber bullets are designed for very rapid expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
But when your shooting a 265 grain .429 bullet at a deer - there's some expectation of controlled expansion.
Likewise with the 225 grain .44 mag. It's not even travelling very fast.
I think you mean inches, as in 2-3 inches at 100 is 4-6 inches at 200 yards. 2-3 MOA at 100 yards ideally should still be 2-3 MOA at 200 yards, unless the bullet has lost stability in between or has drifted because of wind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I would not take a 200 yard shot at a deer with my 30-30 as it currently performs, which is why I leave it at home lately when I head out deer hunting. I have a couple of spots where a 200 yard shot is a possibility, and a few better rifles which I would feel confident using under this circumstance.
I’ve tried the point FTX and SST but with the 30-30 it doesn't make a difference to my results dealing with 3 or 4 Inches at 100 yard groups. Higher POI but who cares. Add the hunter inherent wobble and realistically groups are twice that or better without a good rest.
There are plenty of guns out there that don’t like max load velocity either. The most fun guns do.
To me accuracy at distance is the limiting factor in any gun. I shoot enough big cals to see what a pointy tip does for bullet trajectory and it really does help. Also tipped bullets seem to hold groups better downrange if the gun likes the load behind the pill.
Yes sorry, 4-6 inches, fast typing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
If you are not comfortable taking a shot at game a given range then don't do it, that is perfect, you need to know that you will kill that animal, not think you can.
I would not be worried with my wife's 30-30 bolt action and FTX bullets, my Win 94 though I sighted in with some 150gr RN bullets I had kicking around, I did not work hard on a load and got something decent but that gun is one that goes to spots where a 100 yard shot is max. I had 55 bullets I think to load up, they are old and I forget who made them, ha ha, so it was a quick load development and 100 yard at this time. The 170gr RN KKSP I worked a bit harder on, but the FTX are the most accurate in both our 30-30s, factory Hornady clove leafing at 100 yards.
They should but remember that Remington loaded up the 444 Marlin with pistol bullets for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
The FTX bullet is not a penetration bullet, it is an SST, it is designed to blow up, this is what the line of bullets is for, the caliber does not matter.
The SST is a Super Shock Tip, the FTX is just an SST with a flexible tip.
They are controlled, they do not blow up until they get through the first couple inches, better than a V-max.
That’s actually promising. I know you don’t like fiddling but forget the cannelure for a sec and seat it out a bit further if it will cycle in the gun. A Lee factory crimp die doesn’t need a cannelure. Sometimes levers are real picky but usually a little forgiveness in there!Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
i had a 760 that was a 3 MOA turned in to a half MOA by doing this. Clip fed but hopefully you see my point.
Even the 240 grain .44mag bullets Remington uses hold together nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I guess we have different views of controlled expansion. If the bullet is not 75% in one piece after expansion, then I'd say its a failure.
The 265 grains designed for the .444 are usually pretty close to 100%. The 240 grain .44mag is usually 90%+ - although I've had the core separate from the jacket.
The flex time - well - if its designed to blow up - it works pretty well. Not a very good hunting round though. But in the XLR, it is more accurate than either Remington load.
The ftx is actually quite stout. I have shot a ton of the .458 325ftx. Have never recovered one from game but have from dirt and trees. After the first ML week I discharged it right though a 8" ash tree at 50 yards. Then after the second week a 6" dead elm was my target. It only made it 2 inches in and stopped and still weighed 300 grains. So don't go on things you read on the internet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Thanks for the idea MikePal, it never cross my mine to use an old cast iron skilled for a gong. I've been looking for a gong to do some distance shooting with my 43 Mauser. I thought about a disc off of an old farm disc or possibly a circular saw blade from the platform saws they use to use for limb wood, hard to find or too expensive, but an old cast iron frying pan might just work.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old, You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
I have never seen the 458 FTX bullet, what velocity were you running? I would assume that since it was from a muzzle loader that it was not running very fast, that bullet is designed to be shot out of a 450 Marlin at 2200fps at the muzzle.Quote:
Originally Posted by rippin_355
I have ELD-X bullets for one rifle and they are also the SST, they blow up in a tree I can say that.
The problem is that what you want from a bullet is not what that bullet is designed to do, you probably should stay away from Bergers then too, no personal experience with them but they are suppose to be a grenade once they get through the hide of an animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
This is why I am going to be loading up a pointed 150gr partition in the box magazine 30-30, get the higher BC with the tougher bullet.
At the end of the day you can take any game with a bow and a vitals shot. When it comes to hunting it’s important to know the ballistics of your cartridge so you know how far out is the limit for an ethical shot, but under 100 yards or even a bit more, with the right projectile, even a 223 can take a deer with a vitals shot.
My point is from a hunting point of view most of us are way over powered when we take an ethical vitals shot.
Where the conversation takes a different turn and where this kind of terminal ballistic testing really becomes interesting is when we are talking about non-hunting situations like a charging bear. Now at that point penetration and expansion differences will be apparent.
But for hunting centre fire will work working within the parameters of bullet style and range.
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This is an 8" cast iron skillet hanging on a 6' garden Shepard's hook. I put it at 50 yds to practice Standing shooting with my .45 Kentucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
https://i.imgur.com/KYMBPEdl.jpg
Any frying pan works; you're not testing for penetration persee . A 10" pan simulates a deer vitals and one with a good 'ding' sound so you can hear it. Picked up this whole crate of them for $5 at a garage sale, 3 cast iron ones in the mix.
https://i.imgur.com/ohraeo2l.jpg
You should try filling them with cement. Then hang them and do the test again with different rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
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How does cement change anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
I would think it would provide another medium to shoot through to test back end damage. Just forpoops and giggles more than anything. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
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There are lots of videos of guys shooting cinder blocks....they just shatter, leave a pile of ruble and don't provide a picture of the flight path. Plus they don't 'gong' :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
Nothing beats Paul Harrell’s meat target! Lol
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My muzzleloader is smokeless so they were around 2400fps with my hunting load. Also you can't just say every bullet with a plastic tip is an sst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I can tell you that at over 2700 fps that 458 325 SST will delaminate. I’ve literally picked up more than one skin. I don’t use them for hunting deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by rippin_355
.452 300 SST will also delaminate again my personal first hand encounters.
The mono flex Hornady 250 grain is an all copper. So is the Barnes 300 TTSX. I’ve pushed those pills a kiss away from 3000 fps and around 2 inch groups at 300 yards. I can get them over 3000 but my groups open up.
Never recovered one from a deer.
That is not what I said, what I said was that the FTX bullet specifically is the same design as the SST with a flexible tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by rippin_355
The Hornady site seems to say almost the same thing between the 2 bullet lines. On top of that I did a lot of research into the FTX before we using it and there are a lot of people who talk about these bullets as rapid expansion, not something they would be using for large or dangerous game, very similar to what is being said about the SST. The ELD-X is stated to be designed to retain 50-60% of the weight, that to me is pretty explosive for a big game bullet.
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/sst-...-shock-tip)#!/
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/ftx#!/
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/eld-x#!/
I am curious if those monoflex bullets open up at slow speeds, the Barnes is still a high velocity bullet right, I have not heard of the minimum expansion velocity dropping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
300g ttsx at 3000,Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
I don't think you'd find them shooting through 5 deer lined up side by side..lol
Not sure but they are harder than the TTSX. Hard enough to snap a press lol. Best part of that was talking to lee precision and being honest about how I broke the press and them sending the repair parts free. They are accurate bullets but I had to push them hard high 2800’s if memory serves me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Lol I run then 2450 for whitetail Hunt. Best accuracy is faster though....Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Ya, see this is why I was iffy to try them out in the 30-30, just not enough velocity. I cannot do testing on bullets with real animals so sticking with the FTX in hers and traditional in mine until I run out seems like the best course of action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
I would if I were you. Sometimes you can pick up part boxes of stuff like that on CGN. I’m doing a clean out so if I find some 3030 stuff you are welcome to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I’ve been putting off a clean up for some time.
Rob’s reloading benches of horror!
Ditto....for the past few days I've been doing my a 2020 Ammunition Audit ...time to make a wish list for the Spring Gun Shows...Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Thing with losing your memory; you forget what you got so you keep buying stuff you already have enough of. I've hit the age I need a 'shopping list' now. The wife suggested it when I came home with the 5th jar of peanut butter for the pantry. HaHa...
She wasn't mad about the amount of peanut butter. You were supposed to be buying pickles.
After Mike talking to me about his brass collection I started an audit too, damn I have a lot of mixed 16ga, ha ha ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
When 22LR was hard to get I would buy it whenever I saw it. I ended up with a “lifetime supply”. Not much to look at all dumped into a single ammo can but at the rate I shoot 22LR these days if I buy it at all it’s the CCI Quiet for my squirrel gun.
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