The Schrifle; new 20 ga concept ammo

Interesting topic to debate the merits of....in an age of crossbreeds, next step ?

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New Rifle Shotgun Hybrid Bullet Raises Ethical Questions

TarHunt is a gun company located in Bloomsburg, PA. They specialize in making rifled slug guns. They also make a very interesting 20 ga. slug load called Schrifle. Basically it is a non-sabot projectile loaded into a 20 gauge plastic hull with the bullet sticking out of the hull (just like rifle cartridges are loaded). Obviously, these rounds are intended to be shot from rifled 20 gauge barrels.

The projectile itself is a hollow point lead-free slug called Raptor. The manufacturer has been experimenting with different weights, but right now only the 239 grain projectiles are available with a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps. The pack of ten rounds has a price tag of $45.

We now have shotguns that shoot like rifles, crossbows that shoot like shotguns, and compounds that shoot like crossbows. At what point do we tell people that technology is to much, and you need to improve your hunting skills to take your animal? The main reason I switched to a re-curve bow this year is to challenge myself and improve as a hunter.

Should these new bullets be legal in shotgun only states? Or do you agree with me that we should rely on ability and not technology to have a true fair chase harvest?

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https://i.imgur.com/8GN7tzvm.jpg

These look very interesting.

People use rifle/cartridge/scope combos that can pick off game at hundreds of yards. High power scopes, semi autos. All legal. My opinion is if it’s legal and you are proficient and ethical then why not? This looks like a person wanting to look down on others while he stands on the mountain with his recurve. Reality is any tool that reduces the odds of “not” taking game cleanly is a good thing.

My only question in utilizing that product would be how much deposit is left in the rifling of the barrel versus a plastic sabot.
Otherwise it looks good to me. The idea of shotgun only was to limit the range of the projectile in a semi rural populated area.
Yes, the new technology has made the shotguns more accurate with a modest increase in range but still nowhere near that of a high calibre rifle.
So, until Joe Public complains about a safety issue there is no reason not to enjoy advances in technology.

I hunt rifle, ML, archery and camera. Enjoy all of them equally.

What modern firearm can't hit a dinner plate consistently at a hundred yards. It makes this type of thing superfluous, when your shooting from a rest, 75 feet from a bait pile.

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Originally Posted by swampsinger

What modern firearm can't hit a dinner plate consistently at a hundred yards. It makes this type of thing superfluous, when your shooting from a rest, 75 feet from a bait pile.

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The intention is to make the 20ga into a 200 yd Deer Gun. This guys has done some shooting with it , good article

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/ga...-gun-schrifle/

How is this significantly different than a saboted slug in terms of performance? The Hornady saboted slugs that I use claim to be travelling at 2000 fps. If they reduced the weight of the slug, they could probably achieve the same speed as this new ammunition.

That's the basic premise..from the linked article:

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One of the Holy Grails of slug-gun hunting is developing a round that is accurate and powerful at longer ranges, up to and even exceeding 200 yards. Bad things can happen to a slow slug between here and there. It needs to be fast. But what about its down-range energy? Because of its size, the heavy slug slows down exponentially over distance and ultimately affects accuracy. Ballistic coefficients get out of whack with all those lumps of lead and copper.

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A comparable 20-gauge 2 ¾-inch Foster sighted in at 50 yards drops about 6 inches at 100 yards and its energy diminishes to less than 800 foot pounds. A typical premium 20-gauge, 2 ¾-inch sabot round starts with a muzzle speed of around 1,850 fps and delivers about 1,500 ft. lbs. at 100 yards.

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A shotgun slug that can exceed 2,000 fps is definitely a game-changer. Fritz tried various designs of slugs before finally ending up with a round that tops about 2,250 feet per second out of the muzzle of a 24-inch rifled barrel, and is still zipping at 2,000 fps at 100 yards. In practical terms, it amounts to the following, with a scope mounted about 1½ inches above the bore and sighted-in to be dead-on at 150 yards.

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Originally Posted by rf2

How is this significantly different than a saboted slug in terms of performance? The Hornady saboted slugs that I use claim to be travelling at 2000 fps. If they reduced the weight of the slug, they could probably achieve the same speed as this new ammunition.

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Biggest problem with current sabot slugs is the sabot. It’s a weak point and does not impart 100% rotation of rifling to projectile.

This would eliminate that issue and potentially make the best slug out there into 1/2 MOA shooter.

Maybe

They would be a bore rider bullet opposed to a full formed bullet I would expect. If it were the latter the pressure needed to engrave rifling in that bullet and push it at 2000 fps plus would peel those low pressure barrels like a banana.

Regardless bore riding projectiles if obturate well are incredibly accurate. The size and ballistic coefficient will limit range.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

That's the basic premise..from the linked article:

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So this is where it loses me.

A .673” 239 grain bullet would need BC of .31 to achieve only 250 fps velocity shed in first 100 yards.

I don’t believe this.

TarHunt is a company around for a while.
Time will tell about this ammo-thank You for posting.

My concern would be ricochet. The rationale for having shotgun only hunts, is because of close proximity to built up areas. If they start pushing 200yds with a shotgun, I can see the end of shotgun only hunts here in the south....JMO...it is very interesting though !!

Couple of opinions on this. First modern shotguns and ammo (even 20ga) are already capable of making 200yd shots, even 250 if you're good. I've killed a few at 190-200yds ( from a rest and I use a rangefinder). The other thing I would like to mention is in the US numerous states are allowing straight walled rifle cartridges (like the 45-70) in shotgun only areas since they have similar trajectories. I would love to see that in Ontario as well, allowing us to use old Winchesters and Marlins. TC

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Originally Posted by trky chsr

Couple of opinions on this. First modern shotguns and ammo (even 20ga) are already capable of making 200yd shots, even 250 if you're good. I've killed a few at 190-200yds ( from a rest and I use a rangefinder). The other thing I would like to mention is in the US numerous states are allowing straight walled rifle cartridges (like the 45-70) in shotgun only areas since they have similar trajectories. I would love to see that in Ontario as well, allowing us to use old Winchesters and Marlins. TC

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There is however a very big difference in range and trajectory of a 45/70 , and a 20 gauge shotgun.
A 45/70 is very capable of taking game at 400 to 500 yards, which in southern ontario and the higher density of farms and rural housing makes for a dangerous situation.
Don't forget that the old buffalo hunters used the venerable 45/70 to kill buffalo at ranges well past the 500 yard mark [well documented] on the prairies, I would hate to see it being used around here in southern ontario shotgun only zones.

Nothing is new. It's just the rebirth of the old 20 bore rifle.

Wife has a 20 gauge with a rifled barrel. I think these rounds would turn it into a bad butt bear thumper of a camp gun.

As for the thin low pressure barrels, if people like this round someone will make a stronger barrel. Then someone makes a more powerful round. And the circle continues.

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Originally Posted by trky chsr

Couple of opinions on this. First modern shotguns and ammo (even 20ga) are already capable of making 200yd shots, even 250 if you're good. I've killed a few at 190-200yds ( from a rest and I use a rangefinder). The other thing I would like to mention is in the US numerous states are allowing straight walled rifle cartridges (like the 45-70) in shotgun only areas since they have similar trajectories. I would love to see that in Ontario as well, allowing us to use old Winchesters and Marlins. TC

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This bothers me greatly.
I’ve spent a small fortune on 20 gauge slug testing. They are just good to 200 but that’s it. They don’t have enough left in the tank past 200 to do the job reliably. The BC of those bullets are terrible.


Here is the table for reference;

Attachment 39873

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Originally Posted by jaycee

There is however a very big difference in range and trajectory of a 45/70 , and a 20 gauge shotgun.
A 45/70 is very capable of taking game at 400 to 500 yards, which in southern ontario and the higher density of farms and rural housing makes for a dangerous situation.
Don't forget that the old buffalo hunters used the venerable 45/70 to kill buffalo at ranges well past the 500 yard mark [well documented] on the prairies, I would hate to see it being used around here in southern ontario shotgun only zones.

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I’ve been working with the 45-70 a bunch lately. I think it and 44, 357 would be good. Sure it’ll reach out but the rainbow trajectory required defies practical use.

The bad BC pills coupled with the weight really does not help it fly well.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

This bothers me greatly.
I’ve spent a small fortune on 20 gauge slug testing. They are just good to 200 but that’s it. They don’t have enough left in the tank past 200 to do the job reliably. The BC of those bullets are terrible.


Here is the table for reference;

Attachment 39873

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Thanks for that table. I’m rigging up a 20g, sabot slugs, for deer this year. It will help a lot.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Thanks for that table. I’m rigging up a 20g, sabot slugs, for deer this year. It will help a lot.

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Don’t get me wrong, they are absolutely fantastic up to 200 yards. You will not regret your path.

I have been happy with the Remington AccuTip out of my Savage 220 and the game in front of me, well not so much.

https://images.remington-catalog.com/573cd0229b967

https://www.chuckhawks.com/remington_accutip_slugs.htm

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Don’t get me wrong, they are absolutely fantastic up to 200 yards. You will not regret your path.

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A sabot slug is significantly different than this full bore 20ga.

The BC of a 45 cal projectile in a sabot to 20ga is a heck of a lot better than a wide and short 20ga.

It will be very interesting what comes out of all of this.

I think think a straight wall (min and max case length) rifle should be allowed, something that limits the user to similar range as the rifled shotguns. That being said I would like to see all magazines plugged to 3 combined, just like the shotguns, that would be more sporting than a 14rd 45LC on a driven hunt with 20 guys in SW Ontario.

Great article Mike
I use the Hornady SST sabot that travel 2000 ft/sec and they are all I need in a shotgun slug. Technology will never stop making advancements in everything but it is still our choice if you want to use them

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

This bothers me greatly.
I’ve spent a small fortune on 20 gauge slug testing. They are just good to 200 but that’s it. They don’t have enough left in the tank past 200 to do the job reliably. The BC of those bullets are terrible.


Here is the table for reference;

Attachment 39873

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Thanks for the chart. Confirm up to 150-200yds with 20ga rifled and hornady sst ammo. Love it...

Past 200yds sucks, and outright dangerous in SO, plus a reason for people to complain and eventually ban SG hunting down south

Attachment 39976

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Originally Posted by mikedinoro

Thanks for the chart. Confirm up to 150-200yds with 20ga rifled and hornady sst ammo. Love it...

Past 200yds sucks, and outright dangerous in SO, plus a reason for people to complain and eventually ban SG hunting down south

Attachment 39976

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You can shoot any rifle in most of SW Ontario, unless individual municipalities ban them and you can hunt small game with anything with a diameter of .277 or below. Why is a rifled shotgun at 200 yards outright dangerous? Shooting where you should not be shooting is the dangerous part. A 270 Weatherby magnum can legally be used to hunt squirrels in SW Ontario and the 223 Win Super Short Mad is legal for hunting in every municipality that allows a centerfire.

Don't blame the shotgun blame the user.