Took this video earlier this spring. Now that we're waiting for August when we can start working the dogs on wild birds again I thought I'd share.
https://www.facebook.com/frances.tuf...3403154555582/
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Took this video earlier this spring. Now that we're waiting for August when we can start working the dogs on wild birds again I thought I'd share.
https://www.facebook.com/frances.tuf...3403154555582/
Don't know why this appears twice. Tried to correct the spelling in the title and presto. Sorry folks.
Working your dogs on wild birds in August is not legal under the migratory bird regulations and I'm sure you are aware of that. The Woodcock season doesn't open until Sept. 15th. ! Hopefully you run into a conservation officer when you're in the field. Game laws aside, I do not understand how you folks can ethically allow your dog to hunt birds that you know are in closed season. You do the same thing in the spring, intentionally working (hunting) birds that are trying to breed and nest. Worst part of this is you're also targeting a species that has suffered a massive continental decline , with the population still in a downward spiral.
First of all no birds are shot. We work the youngsters on birds until early April using a starters pistol on my farm, which is a licensed shooting preserve.
There's a saying among dog trainers that says, "If you kill a bird the next dog can't point it."
That setter has a nice point, especially like the 12 o’clock tail.
Nothing wrong with working a dog on migrating woodcock in the early spring, no harm done. Once there nesting that’s a different story and all the hunters/dog handlers I know and have met back off well before that happens.
Please indicate where it is not legal in the migratory bird act. As far as I can find its only prohibited specifically interfering with eggs and nest of migratory birds and its why dogs are pulled from the field mid April. This is not a new situation and I have not come across one instance of charges laid. Do you have any case law? I participate in the wing survey every year so some research is being done. Limits still 8 a day and in fact they increased the season by the earlier opening too the south east.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Following some on a banding project in the States.
http://content.invisioncic.com/r2668...d5bc39634.jpeg
with this much handling can't see how a dog pointing them is that detrimental.
Fortunately you are talking to a gentleman who knows more than you ever will about the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
See Fins Fur Feather's post for the real rules.
Love that video Tim. :)
[????? Ethics aside, maybe that's part of the issue. The problem is that you folks obviously don't know "the rules" if you're intentionally working your dogs during the closed season, or you're OK with breaking the law. It's plainly spelled out to all who hunt. It's one of the most basic of all rules. All you have to do is pick up a copy of the regulations made under the Migratory Birds Convention Act. Better yet, call a local CO or a federal Game Officer, and ask them if it's OK to work your dog intentionally on Woodcock during closed season.
Re: [COLOR=black]This is directly from the MBCA regulations[COLOR=black]
[COLOR=black]hunt means chase, pursue, worry, follow after or on the trail of, lie in wait for, or attempt in any manner to capture, kill, injure or harass a migratory bird, whether or not the migratory bird is captured, killed or injured; (chasser).
Proving your intent would be a big part of whether the charges stayed in court (similar to a CO charging an angler who is pre-fishing a lake during closed season prior to a big tournament).
UOTE=Sharon;1112629]Fortunately you are talking to a gentleman who knows more than you ever will about the rules.
See Fins Fur Feather's post for the real rules.
Love that video Tim. :)[/QUOTE]
https://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/p...usReport19.pdf
Here's the somber population status data for anyone interested. Data from USGS and Canadian Woodcock surveys since 1968 inception. We've lost 60% of our birds since 1968. The most alarming point is our Eastern flyway leads the pack in decline rate and the %loss per year is now increasing. We're losing another 9% of our remaining birds per decade. This grim news is also mirrored in the last two editions of the Ontario Breeding Bird Atlas.
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Knowing the rules is part of the game. I believe the definition of hunting does not apply to training your dog as there is no attempt to capture, kill, injure or harass. I believe your interpretation is incorrect. You're more than welcome to contact the MNR yourself with your concern and post the response you get from them.
Reading stats is always a dry read. Yes its well documented that there is a decline in the population. However what's lacking is the cause. As in most population decline habitat loss is usually to blame followed closely by poor recruitment due to weather. Hunter/human interaction seldom is a significant part of the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
[QUOTE=finsfurfeathers;1112641]Reading stats is always a dry read. Yes its well documented that there is a decline in the population. However what's lacking is the cause. As in most population decline habitat loss is usually to blame followed closely by poor recruitment due to weather. Hunter/human interaction seldom is a significant part of the equation.[/QUOTEarding
So my take on this you do not have any concerns regarding deer hunters releasing their hounds for training purpose out of season because they do not carry and rifles or shot guns. There are laws against this!!
[QUOTE=BPR 30-06;1112746]BPR 30-06 are you familiar how a pointing dog works? There is a fundamental difference that really makes the comparison mute. I don't run hounds, so apologies to hound guys if I'm wrong, only guessing at the answer. I do believe in the regs it specifically says can not run deer. Guess the reason is hounds run game for a prolonged period of time and I can see causing an overly stressed animal. Whereas a pointer endeavors to have the game not flee hence stress is minimal at worst. Still waiting to see the relevant legislation that specifically says you can't train on birdsQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Doom and gloom is one take away. Or one can look too research too improve the forecast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
https://www.providencejournal.com/li...oodcock-chicks
Seems I need to find myself a local researcher, like the title citizen scientist. Rhode Island is too far for me.
The world changes. Always has. Look all you want you won’t find any mammoths or dinosaurs. People don’t like to acknowledge a thing called evolution but it can’t be stopped. Man didn’t cause the ice ages to melt, many species die out and others through millennia mutate and progress. Are there decreases in woodcock, grouse and other species? Absolutely it would happen even if we wore loin cloths and carried clubs. Training bird dogs out of season isn’t killing off woodcock, habitat is and most times it’s developers and subdivisions that are the cause.
Bird dog owners as a group are very respectful of the environment and stop training when birds nest and hatch.
Easy to put the hate on them but unfortunately they are only a symptom of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Human expansion is the cause of wildlife destruction.
Should the discussion be limit humanity to make room for all?
Not what I said. Again evolution is a rolling ball that we can’t change much but let’s not blame dog owners training off season for the woodcocks decline.
To that I fully agree. Decline is most likely related to loss of habitat. Why the habitat is lost most likely to human expansion. Conclusion are easy, solutions will come down to tough decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I fear the woodcock population doesn’t have much weight in this world.
Don't know about the world but see little interest in the hunting fraternity. Little to no recruitment from new hunters coming into the sport and the more experienced crew has either giving up the ghost or died off. I'd love too see a data comparison on the decline of woodcock and the decline of dedicated woodcock hunters. I'd bet hunter numbers have dropped off faster and maybe declared as endangered or at the minimum threatened.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I think that trying to blame the decline of woodcock across north america on bird dog training is a bit of stretch.
[/QUOTEarding
So my take on this you do not have any concerns regarding deer hunters releasing their hounds for training purpose out of season because they do not carry and rifles or shot guns. There are laws against this!![/QUOTE]
How does hound hunting for big game mean anything to a discussion of woodcock decline and bird dogs?
Think its just an ill thought out argument. Closest thing one can find specifically prohibiting training dogs on game. Totally irrelevant however when one is grasping at straws all is good. Unless specifically prohibited I don't worry too much.
https://live.staticflickr.com/7867/3...f625bbbb_z.jpg[url=https://flic.kr/p/QNoYma]
In any case wonder how many guys round here actually still partake in the opportunity. Been offering for the last 3 springs a little woodcock 101 with my dogs around here, have yet to get one to accept.
"So my take on this you do not have any concerns regarding deer hunters releasing their hounds for training purpose out of season because they do not carry and rifles or shot guns. There are laws against this!!"
Calling bs on this. Why trash talk houndsmens to make a point about woodcock decline.
Some people over generalize such that they will try to drag everything and anybody into the argument. It's just an opinion.
Re:"Not what I said. Again evolution is a rolling ball that we can’t change much but let’s not blame dog owners training off season for the woodcocks decline."
This is indeed not what I said, or inferred . My point is that what you are doing (intentionally hunting your dogs on closed season birds) is against the law. If you're obviously not willing to accept that you're breaking the law, then hopefully your ethics kick in and make you realize what you're doing is ,even more so ,ethically and morally wrong, given the current state that the population is in.
Sorry for the tardy reply. I contacted enforcement at both MNR and CWS to get an official response. I asked them if it is legal to intentionally train your dog on returning spring Woodcock that are in closed season. I asked them what their response would be if they encountered evidence of this while out on patrol. Here you go:
Reply from Ontario CWS Game Officer:
"If complaints are received, or evidence of such activity was encountered by officers in the field, they would assess and investigate to determine if offences under the MBCA/MBRs are occurring. As no permits exist or are issued for the activity described, the primary concern would likely be around the disturbance of nests, but may also include hunting (harass) during the closed season or without permit ".
And from an Ontario CO:
"If I came across this on patrol and it was obvious that the individual was intentionally working/training their dog on birds, I'd ask them some simple questions:
Where is your training permit to harass birds? OH - you don't have one....
Where were the birds you flushed? OH - I found a nest with eggs.... (area being worked would be checked)
What is the regular hunting season for woodcock? Hmm - It's closed right now....
There you go, my friend (ticket under MBCAr). "
You guys can take it as you wish. I hope you realize that what you're doing is an illegal hunting activity and at bare minimum, it isn't a practice that is any way helping the birds that we're lucky to have left.
Wow you better get after them CO's for dereliction of duty. Don't know of any charges ever being laid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
There is nothing ethically wrong here for if it was than I wonder what you think of this
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...4f471fff_z.jpg[url=https://flic.kr/p/2hENvPi]
I'd credit you more if you pushed for a season and or limit reduction if the population was so threatened.
That is what we have been saying. Birds on nest is forbidden hence why mid april tends to be the pull out time. As far as permits well yes that's the proper way of doing it so at most its an administrative error. Since one can obtain a permit the act itself isn't illegal or unethical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
[QUOTE=Fenelon;1114227]
And from an Ontario CO:
"If I came across this on patrol and it was obvious that the individual was intentionally working/training their dog on birds, I'd ask them some simple questions:
Where is your training permit to harass birds? [QUOTE]
I am not harassing birds as I believe the definition of harassing cover acts that are designed to cause birds to leave an area. If I encounter birds dog is immediately called back and I go in a different direction so the minimal disturbance of the bird is not different that to which it receives on a daily bases. So if I'm not harassing birds than I'm not hunting so hunting seasons are not applicable
[QUOTE=Fenelon;1114227]
Where were the birds you flushed?[QUOTE ]
OH - I found no nest with eggs as I'm a responsible handler so endeavor to monitor bird activity to ensure minimal disturbance
[QUOTE=Fenelon;1114227]
What is the regular hunting season for woodcock? [QUOTE ]
Sept 25 it opens however usually holdoff for a week or two until their pin feathers fill out than I harvest a good 20-30 until they leave mid nov. Until than I enjoy walks with the dog
[QUOTE=Fenelon;1114227]
There you go, my friend (ticket under MBCAr). "[QUOTE]
In reality most like the response....
Seems you are a reasonable, responsible, and passionate Uplander enjoy your day and never mind them negative nellies that waste our time checking in with you guys.
Nothing wrong with posting pics of a successful fall hunt with a beautiful dog. I do much of the same, but I can't say my Lab does the job as well as your dog! We're lucky if we get ten birds in a season. The issue is intentionally hunting the birds during a closed season. Re: "population was so threatened". What part of 60% loss of the continental population, and and a further loss of another 9% per decade are you not understanding?
?? ? You're still in total denial, The simple act of you intentionally training your dog on these birds during closed season is hunting, as defined under the MBCA. Re: "administrative error" ?? There is absolutely zero chance that any issued permit from CWS is going to contravene the law. You cannot get a permit to hunt Woodcock out of season, nor would the feds issue one. The permit you would be issued would allow you to hunt "non-native" birds that are the norm for a shooting pen eg. Ring-necked Pheasant, Chukkar ore Gambels pen-reared bids.
Re: : "dog is immediately called back". I call major B.S. on that statement. I admit I don't know as much about training pointing dogs, but are you telling me that when your dog points a bird, you don't complete the intended action (to get the dog to flush the bird) by giving your dog a command to flush? I think you's end up with one very frustrated, confused dog!
Your logic just doesn't add up. A pointed bird allowed to fly away some how adversely effects the survival rate of woodcock whereas killing them doesn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Please if you really want to advocate for the woodcock work to shorten seasons and/or reduce bag limits. Live birds breed, dead don't
As I thought you have no real knowledge of what is being done. I'd encourage you to familiarize yourself before judging what you know nothing about. Also your definition of hunting I believe is not applicable. Its all about intent. Kill and Injure are pretty self explanatory to which you have to admit that is not applicable. You now use the term Harass as a cover all. I interpret Harass as anything done to cause the animal to leave an area and not return. It would be against my interest to disturb them enough to leave and area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Now it's become the proverbial "beating of the dead dog". If you truly still think you're not breaking any game law, and you're interpretation makes it OK to keep doing what you're doing, then why not get some closure on the matter for everyone who intentionally trains their dogs on spring returning birds, and contact enforcement yourself for clarification. Ask them yourself what defines the term harassment as a chargeable offence under the Act, and ask them to assess if what you're doing constitutes harassment. A post on your findings would be greatly appreciated.
That's certainly good advice for someone getting into the sport and uncertain about the ramifications. Until someone with some authority questions what I do I will continue to practice what I believe too be correct. In the light of no authenticated citations, or official written response there seems no need to act further. Certainly give no weight to third hand verbal interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
This thread has become yet another reason why guys like Tim who would have a lot to contribute don't bother to post much anymore.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, argue about it on the internet...
IIAmen to that...Quote:
Originally Posted by be2man