I don't hunt with a muzzleloader but I was wondering with the Liberal gun ban and the 20mm clause are muzzleloaders banned or are they not considered firearms? TC
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I don't hunt with a muzzleloader but I was wondering with the Liberal gun ban and the 20mm clause are muzzleloaders banned or are they not considered firearms? TC
No. But could be close on 10,000 joules
There are some models:
https://i.imgur.com/pHZOQdDl.jpg
20mm in almost 79 cal, I know there are some large muzzleloaders, 69 cal, 72 cal, but I do not know of that many 80 cal smoke poles.Quote:
Originally Posted by trky chsr
The old punt guns and BP shotguns would be banned though, nothing states that they have to be breech loading, so front stuffers would be on the ban list for now at least if the bore, not the muzzle, was over 20mm.
Modern smokeless ML can produce well over 10000 joules
I wonder how that would all work though. There has to be some sort of standard that they go with, a 40 cal smokeless muzzle loader can be loaded with a large variation of powder, some safe and some not. Would they be confiscating your muzzle loader and loading it up to the point of failure with a number of different bullet weights to determine the maximum? I highly doubt that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
My expectation is along the same lines as the shotgun SAAMI spec, by looking at factory ammo making 10,000+ joules, since there is no factory ammo I am sure they would default to standards from the industry, which would keep the smokeless muzzle loaders well under 10,000 joules.
I don't think the Laws are designed to address the handful of long distant shooters who push bullets beyond the 10,000 joules out of their smokeless ML's ...
Now those guy with the 2" cannons sitting at the cottage pointed across the Lake...well they HAVE to be Banned ...you know to keep Canadian's safe. HaHa...
Your actually trying to say that a "Modern smokeless ML can produces well over 10,000 joules" which is almost twice what a standard joules of a .338 Win Mag?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Got a reference?
I have three in my basement that will drive a .458 350 grain pill at just shy of 3200 FPS..... so yes I have a referenceQuote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
My avatar shows a load at 6500 FPE and 10 percent under max load of THAT powder.
Welp,I guess you're SOL,too,then. Jeez,what a massive flustercuck this thing turned out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
I’m hoping they will clarify and state ML’s are not included in this nonsense.
Reality for hunting load is 2740 FPS with 300 grain pill is my hunting load. Or lower for whitetail at 2450 ish FPS.
Since MLs don't fall into the village idiots definition of an assault rifle. ...'Designed to shoot as many people as possible in the shortest period of time"....I'm pretty sure even Bill Blair, even with his limited intelligence, can see banning them won't make anyone any safer.
I like the US's appraoch...they don't even do an FBI check when you buy an ML at the counter in WalMart HaHa..
The savage ml2 produces 3300 f.p.e. With 300 grn. xtp. 43 grns. Of IMR4759. That’s 4474 joules. My savage is staying with me.... For now.
Same same! LolQuote:
Originally Posted by trailblzr
If you go out and make a long action rifle that fits a wildcat cartridge shooting a .458 350gr bullet I do not know how they are going to measure what it is actually shooting and how to categorize it. There is no standard so how are they going to ban something chambered on something that does not really exist, a one off. I really do not expect that the RCMP are going to take every single rifle out there and load it up to failure to determine what is actually possible, you know that the 30/06 will shoot a lot faster than factory ammo when loaded beyond safe loading specs and will not blow up the gun, but that does not mean that a 30/06 is rated to shoot that fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Nothing wildcat about this stuff.
I suspect anything 458 will draw their ire.
My point is that the OIC and wording is really poorly thought out and written.
Ban is wide reaching based on the 20mm and joule limit.
460 Weatherby falls to the ban. That really is dangerous....... for moose.
They write the so called laws and let us and lawyers battle it out throw the pasta and see what sticks
Probably an elephant and 1000 yards tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Lol not sure about elephants. But moose and a thousand yard?
If you could pick the right star in the sky to aim at bullet just might get there.
500 yards could work but same can be said of many guns.
You don't shoot elephants at 1000 yards. It's close work..real close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
https://youtu.be/z9tC1fVemRM
I remember having a squirrel charge me like that couple years ago. What a rush :)
I am fully aware of that, but the 460 Weatherby has enough energy to do the job that far out, that was my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
So your guns are not wildcats in any way? Do you have specs on their factory loading? I have never seen a smoke pole with specs as you are describing, mainly because smokeless guns are now custom, even Savage pulled them off the market. I think that would be defining wildcat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
ML's don't come with 'specs' for loading, per se....they might have Manufacture recommended loads in regard to powder and bullet weights but the load variables are so open it's pretty much anything you feel comfortable with that works for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If your using artillery sights...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
No nothing wildcat about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
As Mike pointed out, recommended loads.
There are a pile of manufacturers in the us that build these guns. They have to give you max loads.
They employ Heavy barrels made by Shilen, Brux, etc.
Ok, so how can you justify a gun having a muzzle energy of more than 10,000 joules from a muzzle loader? Can you load the barrel to the top with powder then compress it with the bullet, all smokeless? That would probably produce more than 10,000 Joules but also produce a pipe bomb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
There has to be a basis for the 10,000 joules.
I sure as heck would say that 250gr of triple 7 in a muzzle loader would be a wildcat
Same with a moose at 1000 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
It was written that way to capture the BMG .50 cal type rifles....not muzzle stuffers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
BingoQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
But the problem is a 50 BMG is over 16000 joules with standard loads.
Poorly written OIC - why set limit at 10,000.
Granted,.458WinMag and .460Weatherby (both 10K joules+) are Elephant and Cape Buffalo rounds that not many North American hunters would ever use except African hunts,it shows in glaring detail how little thought went into avoiding unintended consequences of casting too wide a net. That OIC either needs to be amended immediately or scrapped entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
That’s what happens when an imbecile is given the task of writing law !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
The .458 win. mag. . falls below the 10,000 joules energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
10,000 joules equals =7379.6215 ft. lbs. energy.
.458 Win. Mag.
Energy (ft.-lbs.)
Cartridge Muzzle 100
yds. 200
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
450 SAFPSP 4618 3609 2789 2144 1659 1321 [ all in ft. lbs. energy]
As shown, with a 450 gr. bullet, muzzle energy is 4618 ft. lbs. which is 6261.167 joules , quite a bit short of 7379 joules.
Never said other wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
That is highly doubtful, as at 500 yards it has 2046 ft. lbs of energy , down from 7504 at the muzzle with a 500 gr. full metal jacket bullet, and bullet drop is a little more than 69.5 inches, imagine what it is at 1000 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
At that range 1000 yards, Impala maybe, Elephant def. not.
I always thought they were pretty much identical. Obviously,I was mistaken. I checked ballistic data charts for both and you're right,there's one hell of a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
I think the 460 Weatherby is the only "sporting" cartridge that pushes over this threshold, unless anyone can list another.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
The 10,000 joules essentially targets the ELR community, you know, those guys buying $25000 guns that weight 50lbs to shoot long range competition, many of these guys are retired sharpshooters too, both military and police.
I just looked up the numbers, there are a few more "sporting" cartridges but they would be more of a novelty, not sure how many are using the 700 Nitro Express or 600 Nitro express.
Does it wear a muzzle brake? 350g/ 3200 ft/s sounds nasty...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Doubt very much that there are any in Canada , as you are talking "custom usually side by side rifles " very very expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
No kidding. Take a look at this. The start at $150K cnd https://www.hollandandholland.com/a-...ble-rifle.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Only in my dreams!, and I think it would be more of a "nightmare "thinking of spending that kind/amount of money on a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
A friend of mine had sent me a list of some guns like that at an auction sale, the staring bid for a "used one " was often more than $100,000.00.
You better believe it. Even at 3000 FPS it is a hell of a push. For hunting I don’t brake it but if I want small groups I do. With a 2750 FPS load if memory serves it has 70+ ft pounds of recoil.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Two don’t have brakes but don’t venture much past 2950 with those.the brakes one wore a FTR stock and single shot action for a while. Think it was 14 pound without glass.
Just too tough on me.
No kidding... lol. 70ft/lbs is harsh recoilQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack