Unknown champions

[that a boy]

Great responses. I love reading the different posts.
It obviously make the most sense to go with a proven blood line. I looked into that when picking my pup.

when my buddy bought his GSP 7 or 8 years ago he didn't know much about gun dogs and what to look for specifically with regards to breeders and pedegree. All he knew was that wanted a hunting dog and the GSP fit his hunting style and he saw a litter being sold in a magazine, meet the guy saw the parents work a bit didn't really know what to look for but saw them point birds got excited and bought a pup.
Let me tell you I have shot alot of pray at the end of that dogs nose. It screws pray down, and everything. Grouse, woodcock, pheasants,rabbits and every fall we shoot turkey pointed by her And the retrieveing awesome, from land and water equally as good. Did he get lucky? Maybe, that dog gets hunted 3 days a week every week for the past 8 years. It has never been in front of a judge or anyone else for that matter.
He got her fixed when she was a pup and is kicking himself in the now after seeing how good she hunts. I would have taken a pup from that litter for sure. I've seen it first hand no need for a ribbon to prove this dogs worth. But for an outsider I guess you would never know just how good a hunting dog she is without proof. And the ribbons are the proof.

So let me ask this question then.

You have a litter from 2 ultra championed dogs. Does this mean every dog in that litter is going to be an amazing hunting dog? Everyone?
Of is this a crap shoot too? Just a bit more expensive of a crap shoot.

I can probably guarantee you that pups from the ultra championed litter will not stop every 10 feet to smell other dogs markings .
All pups will have high prey drive and not all will put it together .
Give me a dog with drive all day long.

[Dakota Creek]

Of course how well any pup turns out depends on the expertise/knowledgeof the handler/owner. A lousy first 6 months can not be always made up imo.

Ding, ding, ding! :-)

[swampsinger]

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

This is fine, if you have the experience and knowledge to make an informed judgement. A lot of novices or first time buyers don't have that. Some would have no idea what they are looking at.

This is another aspect of trials that I would like to point out. If I have a mind to breed my best female champion, I can go to the trials and watch several stud dog champions, work in different types of terain and weather conditions. I might have the chance to watch some of their prodgeny, to see what traits they are passing on. I can pick the stud that best suits my female. Thru this process the odds of that breeding producing quality steadily increases.

I have a hunch, of what goes on in the op. Bob and Ted are hunting buddies. They are satisfied with what they have, but thinking of the future. "We don't have to go shopping and spend the big bucks. Lets breed trusty and tramp. We can each have a pick of the litter and sell the rest on kijiji and make a couple bucks."

[be2man]

Even the worst pup from a well bred litter, proven sire and dam, is almost guaranteed to be better than a pup from a breeding of 2 "great hunting dogs" as attested to by their owners. It's human nature to be a little "kennel blind" and forgive faults and remember the outstanding days with our often "average" hunting companions.
To compound things those making the assessment of their "great meat dogs" may never have seen dogs performing to the highest levels to have a standard to compare to.
A dog is a long term investment in time and money. I'd choose to put it into a dog with the highest chance of being what I want, and that would be from bloodlines that produce proven consistent performers.

[krakadawn]

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

Not sure what Field Champions you have seen or claim to but I doubt you've had the chance to hunt over some FTCH Labradors or you would be shocked at how capable they are. They are capable of the extremes not just picking up a dead duck in front of you.
Most professionals would want a dog for at least a week or more to assess their skills over a broad range of expectations......10 minutes eh...

[dilly]

Even the worst pup from a well bred litter, proven sire and dam, is almost guaranteed to be better than a pup from a breeding of 2 "great hunting dogs" as attested to by their owners. It's human nature to be a little "kennel blind" and forgive faults and remember the outstanding days with our often "average" hunting companions.
To compound things those making the assessment of their "great meat dogs" may never have seen dogs performing to the highest levels to have a standard to compare to.
A dog is a long term investment in time and money. I'd choose to put it into a dog with the highest chance of being what I want, and that would be from bloodlines that produce proven consistent performers.

Pretty much what this guys said...

[dilly]

I've seen it happen where 2 really good dogs are bred and one pup I was lucky enough to hunt over a lot, turned out to be a great dog. The owner took the time to develop the dog and it got TONS of exposure...including planted birds and all that other "field trail stuff". Birds make good hunting dogs...along with inherited traits. Trials and such help bring out the best in them. IMO, the closest thing you can get to a guaranteed high performance hunting dog is to buy through the Jagdgebrauchshund-Verband e.V. (JGHV), system. Its strict controls are off-putting for some, but man do their dogs hunt! And they aren't crazy expensive either. Why take a risk? NAVHDA is a pretty close second to JGHV.

[trkyhntr21]

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

You seen many field champions on wild birds?
I have seen hunting dogs and FDSB wild birds champions on wild birds and the consistency in which the champions or even derby age dogs find birds over the hunting dog is not even close . Seen alot more good old hunting dogs quit at the 11 min mark than FDSB Champs.

[Cass]

Even the worst pup from a well bred litter, proven sire and dam, is almost guaranteed to be better than a pup from a breeding of 2 "great hunting dogs" as attested to by their owners. It's human nature to be a little "kennel blind" and forgive faults and remember the outstanding days with our often "average" hunting companions.
To compound things those making the assessment of their "great meat dogs" may never have seen dogs performing to the highest levels to have a standard to compare to.

This is bang on. Everyone loves their dogs dearly. I have hunted with friends and coworkers that once they knew I was into dogs couldn't wait to get out and show me what their "amazing hunting dogs" could do. I have yet to be amazed. In this group of dogs I have seen okay dogs that maybe could just use more training, I've seen dogs that their training is the only thing that has them resemble a hunting dog, and I've seen retrievers that won't even pick up a duck, or enter the water - yet their owners still talk about them as if they're a once in a lifetime dog. They may indeed be in other aspects of their life, but hunting certainly isn't their defining trait. Whether or not you wish to run field trials or compete in dog games, without seeing dogs of your chosen breed competing at high levels you really cannot compare apples to apples. You really don't even know what the dog should/can be capable of doing. By buying dogs from proven field stock with champions or winners in their pedigree it is definitely still a gamble. But it is a much better gamble than just buying a dog that is known to be bred for hunting, or from someone who thinks their dog is a great hunter. Generally even the "duds" from these breedings in the red will be more capable than a star from an average litter of companion dogs.

[welsh]

As it happens, I have two dogs. One is my hunting dog of several seasons, a dog of no particular breeding. The new pup is out of solid field trial lines.

Whether your dog of no particular breeding is a "great hunting dog" depends mostly on your own subjective idea of what greatness is. As be2man pointed out we can easily be a bit kennel blind and remember the good stuff while forgiving the faults. My older dog puts a lot of birds in the bag but I can write a list of her faults as long as your arm. She is what she is. A "great" hunting dog?

I can answer because she can't read: No. She's a capable hunting partner who puts birds in the bag. If that's enough for me, fine -- but the original question here was not whether Joe and Bob Hunter need top-shelf trial dogs to hunt with, but "how many amazing champion capability gun dogs" are being bred by the likes of Joe and Fred. If you've seen both, you know the answer.

You have trained ability and natural ability. Just about any dog will hunt and lots of exposure will make a good hunting dog, but you can only go as far as natural ability will take you. And that natural ability includes traits that make training easier. For example, trial spaniels are bred for the traits that make steadying easy, something that I can already see in the pup. (Recent research comparing impulsivity in Border Collies and Labs from working and non-working lines confirms this.) Making a "great hunting dog" is easier if you start with the right material.

In another recent thread, jakezilla said he would breed untitled dogs if he liked their qualities. Paul McGagh, one of the top cocker guys in the US, has said the same. But this is not the same as Joe and Bob deciding to breed their "great hunting dogs" -- the key difference being that McGagh & jakezilla get to see dozens of dogs run each year and pick their poison, while Joe and Fred can only work with what they've got. Joe and Fred can't have much hope of breeding a top-shelf dog working on those terms.

Ever since I was a kid, I've wanted to fly a Spitfire. I hear there are old warbirds hidden in barns all over the place, that just need the pigeon poop polished away by some happy collector. Should I start searching for the Spitfire Mk. IX LF of my dreams? The idea that there are would-be champions bred in backyards is a similar fantasy.

I guess the best answer to this one, in the end, is that if your dog is a great hunting dog to you, then enjoy the few years you've got with the dog. And remember, you'll enjoy them more if you never ask anyone else to agree that your dog is a great hunting dog.