Unknown champions

[swampsinger]

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

Well of course your dog has champions and titles in his pedigree. The breeders of its ancestors, took the time, dedication, travel , money to prove and compare their breeding programs to others.
If you think your dog is worthy of breeding we can take your word on that, or you can prove it.

[krakadawn]

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

MV,
Your comments may be appropo your breed but not accurate with the retriever world. The fancy, flashy field trial aspects you refer to are the rudiments of hard driving prey oriented retrievers wanting to get to the bird.

I also believe the great attributes you seek are the very aspects of strong field trial dogs that have been bred for those attributes.

I can tell you how many labs I've seen who are not water dogs. Do you think the average hunter wants that. Last one I looked at didn't like water in August. Do you think he'll go now. You can guess the answer he received. What else do you expect when buying a show bred dog....indeed.

The small snapshot you refer to can be 10 years of competing...not just happen stance. Dogs that do it over years.

Your comment on Kijiji is spot on....you bet one must do their homework.

[krakadawn]

In my experience, some of the hardest waterfowl hunters I ever met over several decades always sought out top FTCH dogs to sire their litters.
They recognized the qualities they sought and continued to want came from proven dogs, dogs that have met a standard.

If you were ever lucky/skilled enough to have trained, competed and hunted over a Field Trial Champion you would understand my comment. You truly would.

[BDH]

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

You seem to be trying to explain the difference in the performance programs of "FIELD TRIAL" with "HUNT TEST" . You speak of NAVHDA dogs , they are hunt tested to an established standard; Field trial dogs are a competition, one dog against another and a buyer or the average weekend warrior should be aware of the difference between the programs before they buy.

With a hunt test the dog has various establish elements it is graded against, ( Example, Nose, Desire, Cooperation) Some of the elements in early tested are inherited characteristics, and as the dog is trained becomes more of the dogs capabilities to accept training and the ability of a trainer to train a dog. Field trials see the same characteristics being evaluated, but not to a standard but against other dogs being trialed.

My concern is the interpretation of a "REAL HUNTING DOG" by some. I have seen some rescue "mutts" that have produced game as well as any, and to that owner he was content. He was a lottery winner. I personally do not like taking those chances on my hunting companions. I want a dog from a independent, test proven to a standard pedigree that has a higher percentage of being healthy, and has inherited the abilities to become a quality hunting dog over the "Real hunting dog".

Dick

[terrym]

In this age of easy information/research there is no reason to roll the dice when buying a hunting dog. The reality is many don't have the chance to see the parents in action. So the second best thing is the track records like FT titles. The champions have proven 2 things. 1) they have the genes to excell and 2) they are trainable. Those dogs who have hunt test titles have the same attributes. An FDX titled dog must show drive, control, steady to wing and shot, back, retrieve to hand and do water retrieves. They must do this 3 times for different judges so it's not a one shot deal. If you own such a dog you have s formidable hunting companion. NAVHDA tested dogs also have very stringent standards as the level increases. All of this is extremely important but the single biggest variable that doesn't always get mentioned is the owner. If you are a dedicated and knowledgable trainer you will get the best out of your dog. If owning a bird dog means kennelling it 48 weeks a year and no training or conditioning off season you could have a well pedigreed dog who may never amount to much. Buying a dog is a calculated risk at best. I want to reduce the risk as much as possible.

[Mount Sweetness]

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

[terrym]

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

what if the Dam is in Ontario and the Sire in Ohio? Can you always guarantee it will only take 10 minutes to locate a grouse or woodcock? Sometimes a dog is purchased based on kennel reputation. I know 3 people who have bought dogs from Idaho. Great dogs but not everybody has the vacation time or money to go look at a dog in Idaho.

[Big Gunner]

Great responses. I love reading the different posts.
It obviously make the most sense to go with a proven blood line. I looked into that when picking my pup.

when my buddy bought his GSP 7 or 8 years ago he didn't know much about gun dogs and what to look for specifically with regards to breeders and pedegree. All he knew was that wanted a hunting dog and the GSP fit his hunting style and he saw a litter being sold in a magazine, meet the guy saw the parents work a bit didn't really know what to look for but saw them point birds got excited and bought a pup.
Let me tell you I have shot alot of pray at the end of that dogs nose. It screws pray down, and everything. Grouse, woodcock, pheasants,rabbits and every fall we shoot turkey pointed by her And the retrieveing awesome, from land and water equally as good. Did he get lucky? Maybe, that dog gets hunted 3 days a week every week for the past 8 years. It has never been in front of a judge or anyone else for that matter.
He got her fixed when she was a pup and is kicking himself in the now after seeing how good she hunts. I would have taken a pup from that litter for sure. I've seen it first hand no need for a ribbon to prove this dogs worth. But for an outsider I guess you would never know just how good a hunting dog she is without proof. And the ribbons are the proof.

So let me ask this question then.

You have a litter from 2 ultra championed dogs. Does this mean every dog in that litter is going to be an amazing hunting dog? Everyone?
Of is this a crap shoot too? Just a bit more expensive of a crap shoot.

[terrym]

There are never any guarantees. Why does one kid from a family graduate from medical school and the other end up in jail? Same parents, same home, same nutrition and upbringing.

[Sharon]

Great responses. I love reading the different posts.
It obviously make the most sense to go with a proven blood line. I looked into that when picking my pup.

when my buddy bought his GSP 7 or 8 years ago he didn't know much about gun dogs and what to look for specifically with regards to breeders and pedegree. All he knew was that wanted a hunting dog and the GSP fit his hunting style and he saw a litter being sold in a magazine, meet the guy saw the parents work a bit didn't really know what to look for but saw them point birds got excited and bought a pup.
Let me tell you I have shot alot of pray at the end of that dogs nose. It screws pray down, and everything. Grouse, woodcock, pheasants,rabbits and every fall we shoot turkey pointed by her And the retrieveing awesome, from land and water equally as good. Did he get lucky? Maybe, that dog gets hunted 3 days a week every week for the past 8 years. It has never been in front of a judge or anyone else for that matter.
He got her fixed when she was a pup and is kicking himself in the now after seeing how good she hunts. I would have taken a pup from that litter for sure. I've seen it first hand no need for a ribbon to prove this dogs worth. But for an outsider I guess you would never know just how good a hunting dog she is without proof. And the ribbons are the proof.

So let me ask this question then.

You have a litter from 2 ultra championed dogs. Does this mean every dog in that litter is going to be an amazing hunting dog? Everyone?
Of is this a crap shoot too? Just a bit more expensive of a crap shoot.

Maybe not,but very likely you will have fine hunting dogs from that litter. Some will have that extra bit of drive/independence that can make a difference in a trial.
Of course how well any pup turns out depends on the expertise/knowledgeof the handler/owner. A lousy first 6 months can not be always made up imo.