Unknown champions

[sidelock]

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]Yes it is possible that great hunting dogs may produce good hunting dogs just as it is possible that some National Champions may not be be good producers. At the end of the day, its all about one's expectations and set of standards just like the guns we choose to shoot, the vehicles we drive etc. If simply putting game on the table is the utmost important objective, then the dog just becomes a tool and any common dog will do however you'll be missing out on experiencing some of the thrills and excitement that only a high caliber bird dog is capable of providing, which in my opinion is a bigger part of the game.
I'm my own dog's worst critic but I have very high standards and for all the time and effort I put into training and developing a dog, I expect and demand nothing short of the best out of a dog so mediocrity is not acceptable in my agenda. If I'm going to house, feed and hunt a dog that's going to be part of my life for over a decade, I want something that is going to entertain and thrill me and my companions when I cut him loose. After the initial purchase, it doesn't cost any more or less to keep a common hunting dog than it does to keep a high caliber performer so why deprive yourself and settle for less ? Life is just too short, especially for a dog !
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[yellow dog]

I agree with this statement sidelock in all aspects of my life including my job, dogs, hobbies etc. Came from good parenting ;I'm an all in kinda guy or nothing at all. Best post in my opinion. Well said sidelock !

[Big Gunner]

Agreed. Well said sidelock.
And great responses by alot of people.

There some smart people on this form.

[Sharon]

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]Yes it is possible that great hunting dogs may produce good hunting dogs just as it is possible that some National Champions may not be be good producers. At the end of the day, its all about one's expectations and set of standards just like the guns we choose to shoot, the vehicles we drive etc. If simply putting game on the table is the utmost important objective, then the dog just becomes a tool and any common dog will do however you'll be missing out on experiencing some of the thrills and excitement that only a high caliber dog is capable of providing, which in my opinion is a bigger part of the game.
I'm my own dog's worst critic but I have very high standards and for all the time and effort I put into training and developing a dog, I expect and demand nothing short of the best out of a dog so mediocrity is not acceptable in my agenda. If I'm going to house, feed and hunt a dog that's going to be part of my life for over a decade, I want something that is going to entertain and thrill me and my companions when I cut him loose. After the initial purchase, it doesn't cost any more or less to keep a common hunting dog than it does to keep a high caliber performer so why deprive yourself and settle for less ? Life is just too short, especially for a dog !
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Beauties!!

[fishhawk]

[COLOR=#333333]I've seen it happen where 2 really good dogs are bred and one pup I was lucky enough to hunt over a lot, turned out to be a great dog. The owner took the time to develop the dog and it got TONS of exposure...including planted birds and all that other "field trail stuff". Birds make good hunting dogs...along with inherited traits. Trials and such help bring out the best in them. IMO, the closest thing you can get to a guaranteed high performance hunting dog is to buy through the Jagdgebrauchshund-Verband e.V. (JGHV), system. Its strict controls are off-putting for some, but man do their dogs hunt! And they aren't crazy expensive either. Why take a risk? NAVHDA is a pretty close second to JGHV.

I agree, for someone wanting a versatile hunting dog its hard to beat Blood lines out of tested NAVHDA and JGHV dogs. My current GSP sire had its NAVHDA prize VC and the dam was a German import with prize's in the derby testing they do over there, she lives and breathes hunting. I remember once talking to a breeder that was expecting a litter out of JGHV tested dogs and he told me he would only except deposits from people that could provide him a copy of there hunting licence! From my experience and from others I have talked to, any one getting a pup from bloodlines that have been tested and passed from these program's can very likely expect a pup with lots of natural ability and pray drive off the charts!

[vom Dufenshmirtz]

Well, another interesting read. We seem to have a lot of discussions a about breeding.
While (with my limited experience) I could surely write a book about the subject.
Here it is in a few sentences.
There are different breeding models, one needs to be aware of that - puppy mills, backyard breeders, collective of breeders, breed clubs etc. Unless the prospective buyer has the experience to pick and choose he/she needs to pick someone who doesn't have anything to sell (very rare) and listen to their advice. Also most importantly, hunt with as many different dogs/breeds as possible.

It's possible to breed a good dog in almost any system, including two hunters breeding their dogs. But the bigger question is what is a 'good dog' for you? How does it fit your hunting and life?
Very importantly not everyone is well suited with a pup from field trial background regardless of the breed.

You have a litter from 2 ultra championed dogs. Does this mean every dog in that litter is going to be an amazing hunting dog? Everyone?
Of is this a crap shoot too?

Genetics tend to average things. Great parents might not produce great pups. The pups in a given litter will have 25% of the same DNA, the rest can be the same or can be different. Of course, the probability of getting the right pup from the right parents is greater, than from two crappy dogs, but I don't really understand what you're trying to get at with those questions.
About two hunters breeding their dogs, it's possible to produce great pups, if those hunters know what they're doing.
There are examples of that.

[Pigeoneater5000]

There were a few threads about pedigree and breeding and dog selection.
I was talking with a buddy who is also a dog guy and I though how many amazing champion capability gun dogs out there that are unknown.
Guys who have real hunting dogs, not that trial dogs are not hunting dogs by any means please don't get me wrong, but dogs that just hunt and only know how to hunt. No planted birds no artificial interference, not being over commanded and may not have the ideal style but game in the bag, and just hunt and hunt hard.
II have often seen pups for sale on Kijiji and have wondered what if its just a couple of guys with really great dogs that bread them together.
My buddy was talking to a guy out of Windsor who was selling GWP on Kijiji and asked them about there hunting experience, he said they hunted amazing, and as for versatile they hunted everything, ducks,pheasant,rabbit,grouse,woodcock,geese and hard too. Just a couple Euro guys with great dogs breeding them together, and they were reasonably priced too. No mark up price just because of a title.
Now I'm am not promoting puppy mill backyard breeding by any means.
Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?

Hey Big Gunner, interesting thread. My current dog is a mutt. She's great and the guys I hunt with would agree. I'm not a breeder or gun dog trainer. I like to think I'm an average weekend hunter who doesn't mind getting lost in the woods chasing my dog around. I found my pup on kijiji. I visited the breeders home twice before purchasing the dog. The breeder was a hunter. He had both parents on site (which hunted) and I had a good feeling about him and his family. If you would like more details please send me a PM. I'd be happy to share more information with you.

[Cass]

Not to single you out pigeoneater - but for the sake of the conversation I think your input in the thread would be value added. You have alluded to the fact that you own a mutt of questionable breeding as far as field trials are concerned. I think you should shed light on that.

[Waftrudnir]

there is business and there are genetics. one is rather short term (a title or two, followed by a litter) and the other will take generations (decades) to play out.
as JGHV was mentioned, the concept is not about the individual litter, but the overall long term development of a breed for a specific purpose. in order to factor a few generations into the equation it can take quite long if you consider a dogs actual/usable life span. remember, most have their hunting companions in family settings and won't cull them after just a few years before medical expenses ramp up.
logically, working on the entire gene pool rather than focusing on key traits of a pair of individuals provides the average owner with a low risk dog (sufficiently trainable, drive, health, etc.).
and don't forget, the really great dogs are owned by great handlers who invest a lot of time. buying a pup and expecting it to work like the dam/sire is like believing that removing the muffler will turn your honda civic into a race car.

[sidelock]

With all due respect and I'm not trying to pic an argument here or sound degrading in any way but simply using a post as an example. Pigeoneater's post is testament to the words I spoke in an earlier post when I stated that at the end of the day it all comes down to an the individual's expectations and set of standards. Although his standards and expectations may not be the same or as high as someone else's with regards to dogs, according to what he wrote and by the quote or caption at the bottom of his post about cross breeding, he's evidently quite pleased and happy with his dog and that's what's important and what really matters, not what someone else says it should be. If we all thought, believed and acted the same we would be one very boring society.