Fed Issue #30 - Another broken promise: Tax cuts for the middle class

[JBen]

Oh and one thing that leaps out in that latest trend. The way they are quick to "blame men". Hmm, last I checked a lot of industries, if your a white male, you need not apply. How many young men do I know that have spent years trying to land jobs in policing............

or Conversely, if there are industries where "men" are under represented. They blame the "wage gap" ( Do note theres no denying it exist). So is the solution then if we need/want more male PSWs, RPNs, Teachers etc. We tell all the 20-30 something females coming out of school, don't bother applying...We only want to see applications from men?

Given Mosquito likes "real" life examples. Heres one.
Male family member. He's in his late 20s. Spent years in Teachers college. Came out and couldn't find work. I know a lot of teachers and he would have been a great one. Gave up..........A year ago got a job through a friend as a

Glazier.
Exactly the kind of career that article is talking about. A dying job, breaks his back working long hours and Im guessing grosses around the mean.

The future doesn't look to bright.
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

[werner.reiche]

Legally avoid taxes or shelter money says it all. Maybe if we closed loopholes that only the wealthy can afford to take advantage of, there would be a more level playing field, and 'fair share' may mean something. Why should there be shelters or loopholes to avoid your fair share of taxes at all? Why,because it benefits those who make the rules!

What shelters and loop holes? TFSAs? RRSPs? RESPs?

RESPs aren't a big loop hole. Tax is still paid on both the grant and the gain. The only break is the parent saves the money (taxed) and the student pays the tax on the grant and gain.

RRSPs? They're still taxed. Anyone picking on RRSPs as a loop hole probably has a big fat government pension that is indexed to inflation.

RESPs - Its a loophole sure, but you're not going to save the countries finances by closing it.

The countries financial problems are not with the money the government isn't collecting because of loopholes. Its with what the government does with the money it does collect. Anyone that doesn't get that probably should stay out of complicated threads like this.

...and I'm not a buddy of JBen's... but if you're arguing with him on financial issues - even without knowing what they are - It's pretty safe to say you're probably wrong.

[JBen]

Legally avoid taxes or shelter money says it all. Maybe if we closed loopholes that only the wealthy can afford to take advantage of, there would be a more level playing field, and 'fair share' may mean something. Why should there be shelters or loopholes to avoid your fair share of taxes at all? Why,because it benefits those who make the rules!

You know I've never totally disagreed with you G. Where we differ, is like most on the left ( See the US for example) you "blame" solely "corporate greed". Ive said it time and time again. Its both.......stagnant wages and taxation (see 2 or 3 of the links Ive supplied). Its not hard to see "the problem". The middle class has been stagnant since around the 70s........at the same time, taxation, the size and cost of government have exploded.
See PET.............How many times have I said the rich are still the rich, the poor are still the poor.
The middle class down and like any teeter when one thing goes down, another goes up.

And now these days so many tax credits, a god awful amount of them. Some benefit this group, some that group, more that group, still more that. And almost none that the working class, nor much else ( in essence)...Look at Ontario for gods sakes. Tens, hundreds of thousands of good, jobs....gone. By far the vast majority outside the land of plenty ( the GTA).....Whats Wynne done for those people........

You will blame the 1%.
In Canada thats anyone approaching gross annual of 200,000.......

100,000 puts you in the top 20%

We all know the 80-20 rules right?
****

I am all about helping people reduce their tax loads. People on the right might be quick to raise those Fraser studies that show the average person pays more to taxation than they spend on housing/food/clothing........43% these days and thats the typical family..I figure by the time I included everything I was just over 50%...........But I made good coin, was able to take advantage of many things.........

What can the truly well off do?
lol, where can I start and where can I end...........

I am in favour of a flat tax rate, or as mentioned something thats both fewer brackets, and tighter together. Then let all the various fee's, sin taxes, consumption taxes take care of the rest, and if needed raise them. Get rid of all the credits and non sense they have brought in to woo some votes.

Anyone that thinks the typical family can sock money into
RSPs
TFSAs
RESPs
afford hockey, and gymnastics and summer camps and more
And take advantage of just some of the credits, or deductions. That Harper was using to woo the privileged (aka the upper quintiles)

don't know what to say

[awndray]

Again, I agree with what you're saying. But you also brought up the subject of post-secondary education and the astronomical costs associated to it. That too, in my opinion is a subject for another thread. The push for university education in this country in the last couple of decades has been one of the best scams pulled by our governments. That one needs a 4 year degree to obtain a decent wage is a fallacy. We all know this. Yet we have an educated generation of largely unemployed or underemployed debt-holders. It's shameful.

[fishermccann]

Yes W-R I agree I can't argue with JB on this topic. I mean no shelters at all, no RSP's, no TFSA, no RESP, none nada zilch. No deferring taxes at all. You make this much, then you pay this much.... period. What you do with the remaining money after your bill is paid is up to you. But allow nothing that will enable you to reduce what has been determined to be your 'fair share'.

[JBen]

lol.
please, I am by no means an "expert". if I was Id be on an island somewhere near the equator drinking beer, and Pina Coladas while fishing for Permit and Tarpon. Just keeping it "real".
***
Argue away, where we run into trouble is when we say things like, "your drinking the kool Aid" simply because one person has a different perspective.....

[mosquito]

JBen I've known several REAL life examples of teachers that couldn't find work, many because they wouldn't move to an area that didn't have a surplus, several that spent their time teaching anything but their major. A one or two off does not speak for all Canadians any more than the 1 or 2 lotto winners do each week.

As for the TFSA .... back to the old article ..... the source for their report is the CRA.
http://business.financialpost.com/pe...-walks-of-life

Now as for taxes not being the biggest problem ....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle19999873/
Canadians spend more on taxes than on food, clothes and housing, study finds
The average family, according to the group, brought in $77,381 in 2013, paying out 41.8 per cent of that in total tax, and 36.1 per cent on necessities such as food, clothes and housing.


Compare that to 1961, when the numbers were $5,000, 33.5 per cent and 56.5 per cent, respectively.
The Fraser Institute calculates that total taxes for the average family have surged 1,832 per cent since 1962, compared to 1,375 per cent for shelter, 620 per cent for clothes and 546 per cent for food.


and that obviously has gone up under the Liberals and to back it up we see just the income taxes alone for the $80,000 family at 18%
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...il130g-eng.htm

and when you add on HST, tax peoples savings and investments, take away taxes when they need retirement money (RRSP) .... then it is clear that the TFSA is an interference with the gov't agenda of bleeding people dry (hence the CD Howe recommendation for a cap) and the LIEbral's reducing the limit. The gov't sees that money as theirs to take taxes from (ignoring the fact those funds when spent will be taxed) to the detriment of people's opportunity to save.

lol.
please, I am by no means an "expert". if I was Id be on an island somewhere near the equator drinking beer, and Pina Coladas while fishing for Permit and Tarpon. Just keeping it "real".
***
Argue away, where we run into trouble is when we say things like, "your drinking the kool Aid" simply because one person has a different perspective.....

and I stand by the kool-aid statement if you can honestly say you don't think all income brackets are paying their fair share, heck the Liberals just jacked up the upper tax bracket again. Some defer taxes and use their brains instead of just blindly ignoring the ways to save but that just shows they are earning it rather than clueless spending. I go back to theRebel's little simplified report.

http://www.therebel.media/do_canada_...share_in_taxes

The one example of someone not paying their fair share would be a trust fund individual that takes money from charities to speak there and has taxpayers pay for his two nannies .....

[JBen]

Where did I say all brackets aren't paying their "fair share". If I did it would have been sarcasm. Have I not repeatedly said everyone is taxed too much?
What I have said, repeatedly. Is that the tax code ( and in this case we are talking about credits, deductions etc) is that not all benefit from them, not remotely...
What I have said, repeatedly, and tried to illustrate, I hope by now somewhat conclusively, both in realistic terms ( aka real life) and supported by numerous things.

Take just this quote from the one globe article.
[i]But the sun is not shining on everyone equally. According to a recent analysis for the University of Calgary’s School for Public Policy conducted by former Statistic Canada economists Philip Cross and Munir Sheikh, lumping middle-class factory workers together with middle-class teachers – as politicians are wont to do – “obscures the truth about which members of that group are struggling to keep up.”

By every measure – assets, income and the share of earnings – the wealthiest Canadians have done better, while those in lower income brackets have fared significantly less well. This pattern also holds true within the middle class, where the gap between the top and bottom has widened. In fact, that 2013 internal government memo (leaked from Employment and Social Development Canada) was downright gloomy. It described a middle class that was shrinking and falling deeper into debt, and “increasingly vulnerable to financial shocks.”[i]

Care to explain? How it is, if all are treated equally those working class stiffs are falling further and further and further behind. While both the rich get wealthier, the the upper middle class/well off leave them in their dust. And do note its not just the CBC. Its Statistics Canada, leaked Harper era government memos, more.........Further it's not just here....

Which not only heavily supports the things Im trying to illustrate, is directly contradictory to the things your saying ( in essence ). Do note, also. That literally every party, every level of government while their solutions might be different and what they think is the "right thing" they are in unanimous agreement. The "middle class" is taking it on the chin. In short ( for lack of better words) they are all "concerned" about CPP/OAS, about giving people tax breaks. Have been for decades.............
See also Ms Wynne and ORPP

It's funny I do actually try to keep things "short", haven't figured out how.
Im not arguing the others things you might notice, because for all intents and purposes I agree, and I "repeat" things because its staying on "topic" or on point, trying not to stray too far off the main theme......

As I said from the get go re TFSAs.
What do you think I tell every young person who wonders what their best option might be if they manage to find a few dollars to save.....
What do you think I tell someone who earns say 90,000 what to do....

If you want to make the argument that they aren't just for the rich, I'll agree.......Im not going to contradict myself, nor contradict the advice I give people.
Your missing or glossing over the (searches for right words)...the various reasons why people are utilizing them.

But again, if you really think that the typical person has 10,000 to put into them. Read the article your linking. It says it in black and white, they don't. Further the article your linking also clearly states that theres a wide in the percentages.

And they certainly don't have the money to max a TFSA, pay down debt, put money into RESPs ( Harper wanted to increase that as well), etc, etc. Like everyone else they are taxed to the teeth, and things are getting harder and harder...For gods sakes, here in Ontario alone we have people, you know working class people having to choose between Hydro...........or Food
And you think they are capable of putting 10,000 into a TFSA...........or that income splitting is of any use what so ever to them????

You know in the last 40 years, the growth in one part of my industry alone should be enough. Years ago people (those that were capable) went to a stock broker. These days, by far the biggest components are Estate Planning, Retirement Planning, Tax reduction..........(also lately various forms of Insurance mainly critical illness/disability).

/wonders how many people can afford critical illness insurance.
Do you know that these days 95% of people survive heart attacks...years ago people died, families collected life insurance. These days, instead they are off works months and months......with bills to pay..................

Another True Story.
Back in November a guy suffered a brain aneurism, was clinically dead ( aka non responsive) when he was found. Somehow paramedics brought him back. Not sure what that means for the family, the brain damage etc, he will never recover, never go back to work, and will require care the rest of his life....

I just don't know how to "get it across", that people who what we might call your typical working stiff are in fact, the ones getting bent. Despite so much "evidence", that if you "really think someone that earns 50k and is a typical working stiff has the money after taxes, after life (bills etc) to put 10g into a TFSA each year.....

Well I guess theres no need for tax planning, retirement planning, estate planning, business succession planning ( say a family business from parents to children), no need for all the worries and concerns about millions of Canadians who don't have enough saved, or CPP or OAS, or legacy cost at the government level and so many other things I could mention.

but I do try or would like to keep these short


Oh and one last thing. While I do read the Sun from time to time, you do know the Rebel is um..............
No better than the CBC

[werner.reiche]

Yes W-R I agree I can't argue with JB on this topic. I mean no shelters at all, no RSP's, no TFSA, no RESP, none nada zilch. No deferring taxes at all. You make this much, then you pay this much.... period. What you do with the remaining money after your bill is paid is up to you. But allow nothing that will enable you to reduce what has been determined to be your 'fair share'.

This would mean taxing public servants on their pension as it accrues during their working years, decades before they're collecting it.
It would pretty much mean the end of anyone in the PS retiring before age 65.
How are you going to sell that.

[werner.reiche]

Again, I agree with what you're saying. But you also brought up the subject of post-secondary education and the astronomical costs associated to it. That too, in my opinion is a subject for another thread. The push for university education in this country in the last couple of decades has been one of the best scams pulled by our governments. That one needs a 4 year degree to obtain a decent wage is a fallacy. We all know this. Yet we have an educated generation of largely unemployed or underemployed debt-holders. It's shameful.

It's not just the government - its industry too. Why hire someone with an engineering degree when you can get someone with a masters for the same price. Couldn't find a (suitable) job when she graduated with a B. Eng in biomedical science. Went back for her masters and was offered a job literally 10 minutes after her thesis defence.

It's what I call "education inflation". and I don't have an answer for it other than to tell people that the problem is not lack of education, its a lack of jobs. There is a fixed number of jobs and the best educated will get them. So people go and over-educate to be at the top of the heap. That works for individuals, but it is very, very bad for the herd.